The real way to balance condi

[Adenin.5973]

> @Lokki.1092 said:

> > @Adenin.5973 said:

> > Condi is superior dps on average. It has to be. That's what the Anet devs said over and over btw.

> > It has a longer ramp up time than Power but is superior after a certain amount of time.

> >

> > Power is superior in short fights where you can burst out everything you have. Which means trash mob groups, open world PvE in general, Dungeons, Fractals (eventually).

> > Everywhere else, Condi has to be superior, otherwise no one would consider using it. (Imagine choosing between two skills: A: 1k dmg instantly, B: 1k dmg over 10 seconds) Skill B has to do more dmg.

> > That's the design intend.

> >

> > Btw: To all those who cry about the "condi meta" and that this is the only thing you could play and therefore there would be no diversity in game. Why the hell would you then remove condi, so you would've only power left? You would get even less build diversity.

>

> This is another problem, Condi players don't want to change and keep us in this cycle.

>

> Condi does not need superior DPS on average. DoT builds in literally every other MMO ever made have not needed to have superior damage to compete with non DoT based damage builds. The ramp up time is either diminished, or taken into account with the damage numbers.

>

> Conditions needs to be able to crit, and gain damage from power. The current game has 2 "damage" stats for... Reasons... Other MMOs don't have this problem because, Damage/Power/attackP/MainStat All simply increase your damage no matter what sort of skill you are using to deal that damage. DoTs vs Direct damage does not have this problem outside of Guildwars 2, because outside of guildwars 2 they are class/spec mechanics instead of what we have here.

>

> You are looking at build diversity from the wrong side. You are seeing everyone running power and using power weapon as fixed, because now most people run Condi and a condi weapon with a good amount of power players mixed in. look twice the builds! But on the other side (especially in pvp game modes) everyone runs the exact same utilities, same heals, same off weapon, same everything because now we get no choice. Condi is so powerful that we have to spend everything we can to defend against it, and utilize it to it's full potential. Alternately if Condi started working like DoTs in every other game made, there wouldn't be so much CC or duration nerfs. Maybe we could have had whole builds dedicated to controlling the battlefield. There wouldn't be a split in weapons! You want to be a bow/GS warrior? Go ahead because power gives you damage no matter what kitten weapon you are using. We could get entirely new builds and utility usage, because Condition removals could become CC removal and not needed 100% of the time. Condition is not creating more build diversity, it is choking it.

 

I ask you: How great are the chances that Anet overhauls 5 years after the release of GW2 the ENTIRE Game? Every single skill would need to be rebalanced, new skills need to be created, all armors need to be adjusted, the loottables need to be written from scratch, the economy would need to be completely reworked, every single little NPC, heart quest, event, hp, story mission adjusted.

 

We both know, that Anet will never ever in the lifespan of this game get rid of conditions, redo all classes and rebalance everything with a mix of dots and skills that deal instant dmg.

 

And even something that may sound simple like "conditions that crit" would be an insane amount of work

[Gulesave.5073]

Meh, I think the easiest solution is for intensity-stacking conditions to have diminishing returns. Just don't skew the math so far that people get yelled at for tossing on weak stacks and lowering the average.

 

Or just add some passive counterplay, since cleansing and resistance aren't timely enough to prevent a condi spike. For example, all this stuff that decrease incoming condi damage and duration could be added into reworked versions of the Healing Power and Concentration attributes. Might make them a little more popular.

[Adenin.5973]

> @Gulesave.5073 said:

> Meh, I think the easiest solution is for intensity-stacking conditions to have diminishing returns.

 

So why the hell would you then pick condition damage?

That's what some people just don't seem to get.

 

If condition dmg gets diminishing returns after a certain amount of stacks, power dmg would need diminishing returns when you hit a foe during a short amount of time.

 

This would mean less burst dmg, and less crazy condition stacking.

 

You know who would cry after this new balance patch in the pvp forums? Certainly not condition players.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @Leamas.5803 said:

> Condition builds are also useless against inanimate object (I'm thinking the graveler mounds in AC, as an example).

They actually fixed this from HoT onwards (thank god), but never bothered applying it retroactively to core Tyria for some reason.

 

 

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

> @Adenin.5973 said:

 

> Power is superior in short fights where you can burst out everything you have. Which means trash mob groups, open world PvE in general, Dungeons, Fractals (eventually).

> Everywhere else, Condi has to be superior, otherwise no one would consider using it. (Imagine choosing between two skills: A: 1k dmg instantly, B: 1k dmg over 10 seconds) Skill B has to do more dmg.

> That's the design intend.

 

In WvW 90% of players stack a fair bit of toughness and vitality automatically mitigating what would've been the 1k power damage, whereas the condition damage would still deal its full 1k over 4 seconds(the amount that anet guy said in the reddit thread). Where power damage can be mitigated through skills AND toughness, condi can really only be mitigated through skills, and you can only have so many of those at any time and some classes have to completely change their build to compensate. I really hoped for more trait based condi defenses such as the necro death magic's Corruptor's Fervor with the release of path of fire, but alas...we got the opposite I figure

 

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

> @Leamas.5803 said:

> The thing with condi builds is that they have always been overpowered in WvW/PvP, if you ask the power builds, but is that because they're truly overpowered or that so many "power" players run zerker glass canon builds and are easy fodder for conditions. In general, condition/magic builds are also more skill rotation depended and condi players are more likely to know how to get the most of their build to get that stack up where a lot of zerkers approach a fight with the attitude of run in do as much damage as possible until they go down and hope someone rez's them. Many don't even try to protect themselves. How does that make my necro overpowered if they don't dodge my marks or spec condition cleansing skills?

 

Anybody running full zerk in WvW is easy fodder for anybody, not just conditions. Also any build that offensive likely won't have as many condi clearing skills because they are trying for the short game and if you get them into a long game they will lose as conditions were built to do. Condition stalemate until somebody runs out of cleanses and then tick tick tick away the health.

[LightningWolfTigerBear.672]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @Leamas.5803 said:

> > Condition builds are also useless against inanimate object (I'm thinking the graveler mounds in AC, as an example).

> They actually fixed this from HoT onwards (thank god), but never bothered applying it retroactively to core Tyria for some reason.

>

>

 

For the most part, but I do sometimes still encounter the older fashioned objects in newer content. The spider eggs in Draconis Mons come to mind.

[TheBravery.9615]

 

 

Ok how about this- in order to apply 2 stacks, there needs to be more than 5 seconds of a condi.

 

In order to apply 3 stacks, there needs to be more than 10 seconds on the condi.

 

4 stacks - 15 seconds.. etc

 

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

There are 3 stats that make direct damage hurt really bad, power, precision and ferocity. To make condition builds do lots of damage you need just condition damage, yes you can upp it a little with precision to proc some traits and sigils.

 

I don't see the damage of condition damage builds as the biggest problem, it is actually that they can do more damage than a glass Conon build and still be brett durable. Also alot of condition skills are mindless AoE spam skills with tells that you almost can't see while intense burst skills has cast times and needs to hit your target to do damage.

 

The Holosmiths skills are more like most condition damage skills but with good bursts instead. So either make classes power build skills more like Holosmiths skills or make condition skills less brain dead to cast.

[Zenith.7301]

The big mess they created was in splitting power and condition damage.

 

Power and condition damage should be merged, expertise should go away, and conditions can then crit and have ferocity benefit them.

 

Then conditions will be just as dependent as power to crit and ferocity instead of being a single stat that depends on an easy to achieve expertise cap.

 

It would also make hybrid weapons viable and open up build variety.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Unfortunately, that's another case of massively altering game systems and therefore won't happen.

[Hana.8143]

The only way to balance conditions is actually to do something for conditions. Which Anet didn’t do since 2015. They just came up with this pretty bad idea of multi stacks because worldbosses and raidbosses have lots of hp, but didn’t balance it for our 20k characters. Having fun when doing wvw ? Cause I don’t. Was playing as a melee ele yesterday, took 20 stacks of torment instantly and OFC all the other conditions available, and boom, that’s how it ends. It’s Condi Wars 2 and it’s pretty sad.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> The only way to balance conditions is actually to do something for conditions. Which Anet didn’t do since 2015. They just came up with this pretty bad idea of multi stacks because worldbosses and raidbosses have lots of hp, but didn’t balance it for our 20k characters. Having fun when doing wvw ? Cause I don’t. Was playing as a melee ele yesterday, took 20 stacks of torment instantly and OFC all the other conditions available, and boom, that’s how it ends. It’s Condi Wars 2 and it’s pretty sad.

 

Thats no different than being hit with 20k power damage and not mitigating that, which is even worse since its front loaded. Use condy removal and watch what you are debuffed is the answer in general to condy (individual power and condy balancing issues asside).

[dusanyu.4057]

I feel the issue is there is too far of a Gap between long term DPS of Condi and power the gap should be only a few thousand DPS not tens of thousands. Does Power have an advantage in Open world, Dungeons and low level fractles? Yes, but when you want to go into a Raid or a T4 frac. run on your power build and are, told what to do with yourself is a huge issue that should be addressed.

 

A few ideas that may work.

PvE

1. New mechanic on High end bosses in which the Boss occasionaly gains immunity to conditions, this has to be "broken" by the boss having to take a set amount of direct damage amount of in a set amount of time This would open up a need for a couple power slots in the Party.

2. Increase Ramp up time for Condi builds with a couple Total condi Cleanses on bosses forcing the ramp up to happen again.

 

PvP

Add a stat that reduces condition duration (we had this mechanic in GW1 as i used to carry a reduce cripple duration rune in my boots)

 

Any other ideas are suggested these are just a couple i thought of.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @dusanyu.4057 said:

> A few ideas that may work.

> PvE

> 1. New mechanic on High end bosses in which the Boss occasionaly gains immunity to conditions, this has to be "broken" by the boss having to take a set amount of direct damage amount of in a set amount of time This would open up a need for a couple power slots in the Party.

> 2. Increase Ramp up time for Condi builds with a couple Total condi Cleanses on bosses forcing the ramp up to happen again.

For PvE, I see absolutely no reason not to follow the easiest route: adjust the outlier specs by playing with numbers. It's not as if _all_ condi builds were overpowered, imho it's just the top 4 (FB, SB, weaver, renegade). Likewise, some power builds fall into an entirely reasonable range, e.g. DH and holo. Using a sledgehammer like boss condi cleanses to hit all condi classes will do more harm than good.

 

 

[Leamas.5803]

> @"Dinas Dragonbane.2978" said:

> > @Leamas.5803 said:

> > The thing with condi builds is that they have always been overpowered in WvW/PvP, if you ask the power builds, but is that because they're truly overpowered or that so many "power" players run zerker glass canon builds and are easy fodder for conditions. In general, condition/magic builds are also more skill rotation depended and condi players are more likely to know how to get the most of their build to get that stack up where a lot of zerkers approach a fight with the attitude of run in do as much damage as possible until they go down and hope someone rez's them. Many don't even try to protect themselves. How does that make my necro overpowered if they don't dodge my marks or spec condition cleansing skills?

>

> Anybody running full zerk in WvW is easy fodder for anybody, not just conditions. Also any build that offensive likely won't have as many condi clearing skills because they are trying for the short game and if you get them into a long game they will lose as conditions were built to do. Condition stalemate until somebody runs out of cleanses and then tick tick tick away the health.

 

Exactly, but full power users seem to have this impression that since they can't survive, or have problems surviving, a full condi attack that condi is overpowered. You don't hear anyone complaining power build are overpowered when they're put down in 2 seconds with DD.

 

> @EdgarMTanaka.7291 said:

> There are 3 stats that make direct damage hurt really bad, power, precision and ferocity. To make condition builds do lots of damage you need just condition damage, yes you can upp it a little with precision to proc some traits and sigils.

 

That's not entirely true, to get that stack up as a single player you also need expertise to increase duration and precision/ferocity also helps to increase critical effectiveness for those initial attacks. Like glass canon build, you have the option to not spec toughness and max out CD/expertise, but then you pay for it with reduced toughness, which makes even the most wily necro very squishy. Where a glass canon can put me down in seconds, it takes me longer to build a stack to get the damage up, but I can do it at a distance and maintain it longer where a glass canon build can do huge damage right up front. In my mind, if you're min/maxing, each build has it's advantages/disadvantages.

 

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @Leamas.5803 said:

> > Condition builds are also useless against inanimate object (I'm thinking the graveler mounds in AC, as an example).

> They actually fixed this from HoT onwards (thank god), but never bothered applying it retroactively to core Tyria for some reason.

>

 

I didn't realize this. Good to know. Thanks for the info.

[EdgarMTanaka.7291]

> @Leamas.5803 said:

> > @EdgarMTanaka.7291 said:

> > There are 3 stats that make direct damage hurt really bad, power, precision and ferocity. To make condition builds do lots of damage you need just condition damage, yes you can upp it a little with precision to proc some traits and sigils.

>

> That's not entirely true, to get that stack up as a single player you also need expertise to increase duration and precision/ferocity also helps to increase critical effectiveness for those initial attacks. Like glass canon build, you have the option to not spec toughness and max out CD/expertise, but then you pay for it with reduced toughness, which makes even the most wily necro very squishy. Where a glass canon can put me down in seconds, it takes me longer to build a stack to get the damage up, but I can do it at a distance and maintain it longer where a glass canon build can do huge damage right up front. In my mind, if you're min/maxing, each build has it's advantages/disadvantages.

 

 

Personally I wouldn't go Expertise as duration is not important... What I need is lot of stacks and high damage. If I would need duration on Conditions I woulnd't be involved in this discussion. Does ferocity work on conditions? As far as I know Crits and ferocity only increase direct damage.

[Leamas.5803]

> @EdgarMTanaka.7291 said:

> > @Leamas.5803 said:

> > > @EdgarMTanaka.7291 said:

> > > There are 3 stats that make direct damage hurt really bad, power, precision and ferocity. To make condition builds do lots of damage you need just condition damage, yes you can upp it a little with precision to proc some traits and sigils.

> >

> > That's not entirely true, to get that stack up as a single player you also need expertise to increase duration and precision/ferocity also helps to increase critical effectiveness for those initial attacks. Like glass canon build, you have the option to not spec toughness and max out CD/expertise, but then you pay for it with reduced toughness, which makes even the most wily necro very squishy. Where a glass canon can put me down in seconds, it takes me longer to build a stack to get the damage up, but I can do it at a distance and maintain it longer where a glass canon build can do huge damage right up front. In my mind, if you're min/maxing, each build has it's advantages/disadvantages.

>

>

> Personally I wouldn't go Expertise as duration is not important... What I need is lot of stacks and high damage. If I would need duration on Conditions I woulnd't be involved in this discussion. Does ferocity work on conditions? As far as I know Crits and ferocity only increase direct damage.

 

Duration helps build larger stacks, thus increasing damage over time. Condi builds were never intended to have high damage up front. I don't know about damage from stacked conditions, but I do get crit from the initial hit from marks and necrotic grasp for sure. I see the red blood splat indicating a crit hit all the time when farming in the lab and, other than for bosses, all I use in there is the staff since marks are good for tagging enemy groups coming out of doors. All attack marks will do some physical damage when they're initially triggered, just like many physical attacks will apply conditions, such as bleeding or burning, it's just that pre-HoT inanimate objects won't trigger marks. These days I run Viper's stats mostly, so I do a good amount of both physical and condi, but I lean more towards power using the Reaper Runes, but by no means maxed. I run a bit of extra toughness on some of my runes and trinkets for extra survivability since I play solo most of the time. In WvW, I like to play protector rather than aggressor, so I have a separate set of Dire gear for that that is max condi, max survivability, so I don't get any bonus' for condi duration or criticals, other than what I can get from sigils and food. I typically hide in forts and drop mark outside the gates to keep it safe, while being able to take some good hits from invaders. If there is a roaming group on the map, I can generally buy enough time to give them the time to get there. As I said, most people don't spec for condi cleanse in WvW, especially not a max condi build, so I can usually hold one of the smaller forts for some time. That said, I'm useless in close quarters.