Kittymarks - The derpy girl's comprehensive benchmark

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @Zlater.6789 said:

> Also for anyone who says they can do more dps with so and so, thas pretty much perfect from what I've seen, thats normal max deeps for oceanic players, it's probably close to impossible to get much higher than that.

 

I live somewhere with a constant 200 ping and from my tests, it's not impossible to achieve near the Qt benchmarks. It's not close to impossible, it's pretty much possible.

 

[TheSlothArmada.6709]

> @thrag.9740 said:

> > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > And like usual: don't be a build kitten. If the squad isn't speedrunning or doing No Updrafts-Gors, pretty much any build with over 20k DPS works for basic DPS role if played properly.

>

> Finally I can kick gs warriors without being considered an elitist.

 

Sad but true ;-;

[Feanor.2358]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> For some hilarious example, Kitty once joined a no-greens VG metagroup. Though the whole squad was experienced at no greens, we failed 3 times (around 20-30% HP left) before trying the normal way. And Kitty got to see how those experienced no-greeners couldn't get past first split.

> A few days later, Kitty did VG the normal way with some non-experienced random guild group (ofc that squad didn't have druids or warriors). And it was smooooth though DPS wasn't anything fantastic, just good enough to have 10 secs left on timer at kill.

 

That's an interesting phenomenon I'm noticing in my own play. I spent the last year learning to delegate as many responsibilities as possible just so I can take a single one, dps, to my limit. Courtesy of that, I have started to down a lot more than I used to in off-meta fractal pugs. It's just specialization. You learn how to do that one thing of choice REALLY well, but when you for some reason can't, you find your instincts are suddenly off.

[Cynn.1659]

I don't know what's more disturbing. Skill clicking or the fact that you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person here and on reddit.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @Cynn.1659 said:

> I don't know what's more disturbing. Skill clicking or the fact that you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person here and on reddit.

 

SHe's been doing that for the 10 years ive known her. It's habitual at this point.

 

She even tried to lie and say it was in reference to her character years back, but the problem is, this forum doesn't have character profiles.

 

I just block her, and move on.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Cynn.1659 said:

> I don't know what's more disturbing. Skill clicking or the fact that you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person here and on reddit.

 

Not all of us grew up with keyboards attached to our fingers.......and to that other bit, umm...yea. ;)

[Huttunen.8309]

One of qT's eles plays with 150 ping himself, so high ping should not be an excuse if it doesn't go really high. Also Huttunen is very confused about this 3rd person pov writing

[Joxer.6024]

> @Huttunen.8309 said:

> One of qT's eles plays with 150 ping himself, so high ping should not be an excuse if it doesn't go really high. Also Huttunen is very confused about this 3rd person pov writing

 

lol....150??? I average 280....go go Aussie net!

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> Second, the only thing these benchmarks really show is how easy or fast some classes and their dps builds work and how hard it is to master them. Which granted is quite useful

 

So ideally, this is a good place to start for people looking at learning rotations, but aren't ready to try to do anything at QT's or DT's level. I think it would be great if we had a lot more benchmarks than just QT's (which is optimal for people who are ready to compare themselves to Optimal builds, but not so good for the rest of us).

 

For those looking at something in between, here's [Lady Elyssa](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Lady_Elyssa "Lady Elyssa")'s [Open World PvE builds](https://redd.it/780lzi "Open World PvE builds")

 

 

[Llethander.3972]

> @Raif.9507 said:

> > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > @"Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489" said:

> >

> > >

> > > To all you depressive people who think 8 tries is too little, and that kittys can't be taken seriously: considering Kitty is one person that has tested way over 100 builds and landed at kittymarks that are definitely strong enough to be allowed in raids, I suggest you go and do it better. No? Didn't think so.

> >

> > So dismissive, people like qt and snowcrows put in hours and hours of effort over hundreds and hundreds of tries just to get one benchmark out, farting out a quick rotation on a dummy and calling it a day is hardly representative of anything.

> >

>

> I think he's more referring to the people playing down her efforts. Many people here are missing what she is doing - these are benchmarks done by a player using non-meta builds so that those who wonder sometimes what they can do at least have *some* form of mark to hit.

>

> And to be honest, GW2 player fixation on golem benchmarks is beyond reasonable , and I don't mean any disrespect to qT/SC and their efforts. What they offer is the equivalent of Simulationcraft, and even then isn't nearly as good. For those who don't know what Simulationcraft is, it's a program used in WoW to simulate in a closed environment a fight using controllable buffs, actions and gear and done by a computer. It's perfect execution in a situation that never comes up, exactly like what qT benchmarks are but done by a computer so there is 0 error.

>

> However, even with that tool, that is not how benchmarks and class performance is rated. Players use Simulationcraft to see what the class can do in (mostly) single target 0 movement scenarios to see the theoretical maximum and use it as a guideline for what to expect in a raid and how to gear. The real important information comes from Warcraftlogs which shows class performance in actual raid scenarios and how that simulated DPS translates into real world application. While a class can simulate very high, it sometims doesn't translate into very good DPS overall as mechanics can very much change the lay of the land. In the end, no one cares about the simulated DPS, just what warcraftlogs shows and how the class is rated there because it's real data, showing how they will perform in the actual fight.

>

> Yes GW2 is different, but the theory is the same.

>

> Nice job kitty, while there could have been more tries to get more data, it's very refreshing to see that you have tried multiple builds and posted the videos. Yes, better players can get more, but at least it's a starting point.

 

Exactly! qT benchmarks are ultimately nothing more than an example of what a class CAN do in an optimal scenario. This scenario, of course, will almost never occur - ie. you will rarely ever have a situation where you can go ham on a target for periods of time without having to handle some form of mechanic or avoid some form of damage like in the Aerodrome. There are too many random variables in actual combat that are not present when wailing on the golem. The most useful information that can be gleaned from golem benchmarks is how quickly the different classes can spike damage, at what point does it even out, and how long does it take for condition damage to overtake direct damage, or vice versa.

 

I think Kitty's work here is impressive. Benchmarks, such as what qT does, are geared more towards the meta builds whereas Kittymarks gives us a broader scope. It allows us to look at multiple builds, however sub-optimal they may be, and have a general idea of how they stack up. qT is very specialized, Kitty has provided something more broad. Each has its own place and each is useful in its own way.

[Tarasicodissa.7084]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> So ideally, this is a good place to start for people looking at learning rotations, but aren't ready to try to do anything at QT's or DT's level. I think it would be great if we had a lot more benchmarks than just QT's (which is optimal for people who are ready to compare themselves to Optimal builds, but not so good for the rest of us).

No. Just.... no! That's like recommending a newbie gets a set of full nomad gear so he doesn't have to dodge. This achieves nothing, just teaches people bad habits.

 

If this "Kitty" straight up admitted she's bad and she seeks ways to improve, a lot of people around this subforum would gladly lend their help. But trying to pass these off as some kind of official benchmarks that people should be aiming for, is a laugh in every good player's face and it triggers me, because some newbies might actually fall for it.

 

Just to give an example: if you learn Kitty's rotations, you'll be taught to use Cleansing Flame (torch 5) on guardian, which is a massive DPS loss regardless of the build you're running. And while I don't think this skill is useless (condi cleanse might come in handy in some situations), you shouldn't be activating it as a DPS-role player and you CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT be activating it while fighting a defenseless golem dummy.

 

To be quite honest, I myself fall slightly behind the qT benchmarks. But that's one more reason to stick to their rotations, because trying to replicate a lesser, inefficient rotation would put me even further behind.

[lucatri.7945]

> @Cynn.1659 said:

> I don't know what's more disturbing. Skill clicking or the fact that you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person here and on reddit.

 

Oh, did she post these... "benchmarks" on Reddit too? That should be worth a couple laughs.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > So ideally, this is a good place to start for people looking at learning rotations, but aren't ready to try to do anything at QT's or DT's level. I think it would be great if we had a lot more benchmarks than just QT's (which is optimal for people who are ready to compare themselves to Optimal builds, but not so good for the rest of us).

> No. Just.... no! That's like recommending a newbie gets a set of full nomad gear so he doesn't have to dodge. This achieves nothing, just teaches people bad habits.

>

> If this "Kitty" straight up admitted she's bad and she seeks ways to improve, a lot of people around this subforum would gladly lend their help. But trying to pass these off as some kind of official benchmarks that people should be aiming for, is a laugh in every good player's face and it triggers me, because some newbies might actually fall for it.

>

> Just to give an example: if you learn Kitty's rotations, you'll be taught to use Cleansing Flame (torch 5) on guardian, which is a massive DPS loss regardless of the build you're running. And while I don't think this skill is useless (condi cleanse might come in handy in some situations), you shouldn't be activating it as a DPS-role player and you CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT be activating it while fighting a defenseless golem dummy.

>

> To be quite honest, I myself fall slightly behind the qT benchmarks. But that's one more reason to stick to their rotations, because trying to replicate a lesser, inefficient rotation would put me even further behind.

 

These aren't benchmarks that people should be aiming for, but benchmarks that a normal player with ascended gears should be able to reach at least, preferably way more if they're any skilled or maining a class (Kitty doesn't main any, she plays whatever class/build she feels like playing each day). And Kitty's skill level already is enough to do decently-to-well in pug raids, though ofc she might not be accepted to speedrun groups. But if people reached even Kitty's level, that would already be a huge improvement compared to what lots of pugs currently do. Btw, has Kitty said anywhere that she's good? No?

 

Condiguard is already on Kitty's list of builds to review, by the way. And qT-rotations...Kitty thinks she's already mentioned that lots of players who don't speedrun or who multiclass don't have the patience to learn and hone qT's 30-step rotation as they currently are. If those rotations can be condensed to a few phrases...then why they haven't done so? Kitty can understand how their rotations work (but can't pull them off properly 'cause mess-up sometime before 5th repeation) but lots of pugs most likely can't 'cause "they just copy-pasta some metarotation". And well, to quote their current staff weaver guide "The rotation is very complex and depends on which cooldown is up." Kitty's rotation might not be the most optimized and Kitty does advice speed-runners to rather use qtfy ones if they are ready to memorize and hone them to perfection. But for anyone who's not up to that, simple yet decent rotation might work better (and likely does 'cause easier to recover after messing up). Besides, since Kitty's benchmarks include about 10x as many builds as qT's, people simply won't find any rotations from anywhere else if they like something else than metabuild better.

 

E: And just as a reminder, Kitty has mentioned "Note: These aren’t super-duper highest-ever benchmarks but something any full ascended-geared player should reach within a few tries. Some kind of standard, Kitty could say." above the benchmarks. Makes Kitty wonder if peoples just skip to reading the statistics like they do with qT's "Don't be a class nazi" before their benchmarks...

[Refia Montes.3205]

Well most rotations could be condensed easily into skill priorities and filling with autos in between. For example... Power DH, while Qt's rotation tells you to use a 30 step rotation it could be easily condensed into Activate Traps, GS2, GS4, F1, Sceptre 2, Torch 4 then filling it with autos in between casts. Surely you'll deal good dps with the rotation and allows you to be more flexible in battles due to the need to heal, evade or loss of alacrity. Basically most rotations could be condensed into that.

[Raguel.9402]

To be honest I'd rather have a full cele ele pulling consistent 20k dps than a wannabe player who just copy pasted a build and does 6k on a guardian at Samarog.

 

Qtfy's or SC's benchmarks and builds are for players who want to improve their game. Who want to learn and improve. If I were to take Kitty's benchmarks as a given I might as well stop practicing on my guardian because I easily pull higher dps than what you benchmark (given I use optimal food, gear, not always though, and build).

 

The most important factor is always player skill, however, there is only so much you can do with skill alone, which is why you should always aim at improving Skill -> Build -> Gear.

[Sethorus.9231]

Sorry but 8 attempts with a certain build are just too low data to provide an accurate benchmark. Would believe it more with a more plausible numbers like 50 attempts or more.

[MrRay.3027]

"Official benchmarks" That one craked me up.

Is it possible that all these contrarians are just upset that someone says that you don't need to pull of 35k dps to finish a raid? All their uniqueness is gone, all their "hard work".

Kitty says: "These are sinpler rotations for the new players" and elitist replies:"I always fall below qt's benchmarks and if I were to use kitty's I'd be even lower". What's the logic in that?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I like this thread, the benchmarks provided by OP, the multiple builds she tested and the overall great example of what has become of this community merely 2 years after introducing raid content.

[Flurry of dancing flames.9]

You're not helping the community Kitty, just yourself feel better.

 

Please refrain from misleading pugs the wrong way and making our experience with pugs even worse. They shouldn't be aiming for 'below mediocre' damage or else people will become even more elitist and anti-PUG.

 

qT's benchmark's are often easy enough to understand and not that hard to get. A lot more logical and well tested than yours are, in which case, it's obviously better for pugs to (even if it's just slowly) aim towards that goal. An actually well-tested one that the community have already had a say in and helped them to perfect with criticism. There's not much you're adding by being all... 'Kawaii'... y'know?

 

I will never let my closest friend just joining the game run these builds because I like playing with good players.

If he does I'll simply disown him. :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Kitty's thread is not misleading. She provides numbers. And numbers don't lie. What you make of it is only your choice. The same applies to qt benchmarks. A lot of players use their builds without single thought or understanding them and as the result you meat 10k weavers believing they are outdpsing power reapers.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

They won't be well received because community is biased towards playing certain builds even though I dare to say 70% of pugs is incapable of executing meta builds. Kitty's builds do enough damage to allow raid to be cleared. No boss in raids requires top benchmark. 20k is absolutely enough.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @"Flurry of dancing flames.9830" said:

> Well, I believe it's misleading regarding the fact it's 'giving pugs the wrong idea or impression that this is acceptable'.

> They won't be well-received and generally 'pooped on' shall we say.

> That or they can wallow in their own filth and make groups like this together, wiping on Bloomhunger.

 

Just to remind, what's acceptable DPS for getting a kill and what's acceptable to play like a pro, aiming for fastest possible kill are 2 quite separate things.

 

Gosh, guess Kitty needs to copy-pasta what kind of squad DPS each boss requires to get the kill just so peoples remember how effin low the actual DPS-requirements are (ofc lower DPS means more mechanisms to deal with, but if squad doesn't know the mechanisms no DPS can save them, rite?). Numbers calculated from DPS-meters showed in raid vids to include the damage to adds.

 

Vale Guardian

Boss HP: 22 000 000

Enrage timer: 8 minutes (480 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 55 000

 

Gorseval the Multifarious

Boss HP: 21 600 000

Enrage timer: 7 minutes (420 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 70 000

 

Sabetha the Saboteur

Boss HP: 34 000 000

Enrage timer: 9 minutes (540 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 70 000

 

Slothasor

Boss HP: 19 000 000

Enrage timer: 7 minutes (420 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 60 000

 

Matthias

Boss HP: 25 900 000

Enrage timer: 10 minutes (600 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 50 000

 

Keep Construct

Boss HP: 55 053 600

Enrage timer: 10 minutes (600 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 105 000 (get dem ley rifts!)

 

Xera

Boss HP: 22,611,300

Enrage timer: 11 minutes

Recommended average DPS: 70 000

 

Cairn the Indomitable

Boss HP: 20 000 000

Enrage timer: 8 minutes (480 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 45 000

 

Mursaat Overseer

Boss HP: 22 000 000

Enrage timer: 6 minutes (360 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 65 000

 

Samarog

Boss HP: 29 439 000

Enrage timer: 11 minutes (660 seconds)

Recommended average DPS: 60 000

 

Deimos

Boss HP: 36 000 000

Enrage timer: 12 minutes

Recommended average DPS: 65 000

 

Duh.

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Kitty's thread is not misleading. She provides numbers. And numbers don't lie. What you make of it is only your choice. The same applies to qt benchmarks. A lot of players use their builds without single thought or understanding them and as the result you meat 10k weavers believing they are outdpsing power reapers.

 

I had a long reply written out for this, frankly put, these builds are misleading, they lack even the most basic context that other benchmarks have tried to given, there are so so so many reasons why half of these benchmarks are wrong, and will fall flat on there faces the moment they touch a raid environment, at least with someone whom has put effort into there website like QT I can point someone towards condi firebrand and be like "Ok, here are your gear choices, here's what bosses you're effective on, you'll notice that you have some bosses you're not, that's why you want to have gear for power dragonhunter for bosses like KC."

 

Trying to herald this post as "wow look at how many V I A B L E builds there are that the meta *scoffs* ignores!" is stupid, i could honestly fart out a 25k+ parse with pistol pistol deadeye and post it, does that make pistol thief remotely worth bringing to raids? hell no, for a magnitude of reasons.

 

Let's not forget you are joining a group where 6 other people are resigning themselves to VERY boring builds like chrono, druid & condiPS, you are expected to come, take one of these vital dps spots, and bring the most synergistic, optimal build you can for each boss, it doesn't have to be diehard meta, but you're expected to pull a certain level of weight.

 

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> Let's not forget you are joining a group where 6 other people are resigning themselves to VERY boring builds like chrono, druid & condiPS, you are expected to come, take one of these vital dps spots, and bring the most synergistic, optimal build you can for each boss, it doesn't have to be diehard meta, but you're expected to pull a certain level of weight.

 

That's a good point, but in the dps department you can really do the job with a variety of builds. Heck, even P/P deadeye could be fine on bosses which don't favor cleave. So long as you pick a build that's not a complete joke for the particular encounter, you should be OK.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > So ideally, this is a good place to start for people looking at learning rotations, but aren't ready to try to do anything at QT's or DT's level. I think it would be great if we had a lot more benchmarks than just QT's (which is optimal for people who are ready to compare themselves to Optimal builds, but not so good for the rest of us).

> No. Just.... no! That's like recommending a newbie gets a set of full nomad gear so he doesn't have to dodge. This achieves nothing, just teaches people bad habits.

>

> If this "Kitty" straight up admitted she's bad and she seeks ways to improve, a lot of people around this subforum would gladly lend their help. But trying to pass these off as some kind of official benchmarks that people should be aiming for, is a laugh in every good player's face and it triggers me, because some newbies might actually fall for it.

>

> Just to give an example: if you learn Kitty's rotations, you'll be taught to use Cleansing Flame (torch 5) on guardian, which is a massive DPS loss regardless of the build you're running. And while I don't think this skill is useless (condi cleanse might come in handy in some situations), you shouldn't be activating it as a DPS-role player and you CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT be activating it while fighting a defenseless golem dummy.

>

> To be quite honest, I myself fall slightly behind the qT benchmarks. But that's one more reason to stick to their rotations, because trying to replicate a lesser, inefficient rotation would put me even further behind.

 

To "Kitty", same as above post my point about your Condi renegade rotation, you say to use Soulcleave which is a huge dps lose and yet in your video you are using razorclaw, as you should. That could be very confusing to someone trying out your ideas and such, that's all.