Are Minion Masters Passive builds?(Multi game perspective)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > My idea is just to fix the traits so they encourage people to use the minion skills, not just sit on minions. To be honest, I don't think specifics will be helpful here. The problem isn't with minions.

>

> The Minion Traits are already exceptionally powerful. In the old Raiding MM build the master trait made the master effectively immune to all conditions while the Grandmaster today is actually quite good. Without any changes to death if Minion skills or other means of spawning minions were made to be effective, the master and grandmaster traits would make death worth taking alone.

>

> I've actually seen some recommendations for death on scourge for Souless horror and Sloth because of those two traits. Although that build alteration takes no minion skills. I tried it myself though we didn't have a very good run and did feel worth it to me but I'm willing to experiment further.

 

Sure powerful .. but still promoting passive play. That means the traits need to change if the issue is that minions are too passively played because it's certainly not minions or their associated active skills that make them powerful.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Anything AI-controlled which affects AoE-targeting is going to be a bit passive by nature.

 

Aside from Flesh wurm - and consuming it instantly as if it was just a shadowstep skill - there's really no point in using the skills except to passively soak aggro and deal extra damage without doing anything, so yes, they are passive.

 

Balancing minions without making a dedicated AI-handling archetype which derives all its power from its AI is basically impossible. They either end up weak or OP, as we've seen from ranger pets, mesmer clones, and engi turrets over the years. The action output and control onto your opponent is either so high it becomes absolutely dominant in the top echelons of play (even if it were to take immense skill) if you force manual control that it makes most other game patterns irrelevant, or simply it ends up being too weak and never useful except to soak aggro and/or deal free passive damage.

 

With the necro's base level of sustain, it's not really viable; you're not playing meepo where a tiny misplay gets you killed. It's a durable class and summon-permanence calls for innately weaker creatures than say, a mesmer.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > My idea is just to fix the traits so they encourage people to use the minion skills, not just sit on minions. To be honest, I don't think specifics will be helpful here. The problem isn't with minions.

> >

> > The Minion Traits are already exceptionally powerful. In the old Raiding MM build the master trait made the master effectively immune to all conditions while the Grandmaster today is actually quite good. Without any changes to death if Minion skills or other means of spawning minions were made to be effective, the master and grandmaster traits would make death worth taking alone.

> >

> > I've actually seen some recommendations for death on scourge for Souless horror and Sloth because of those two traits. Although that build alteration takes no minion skills. I tried it myself though we didn't have a very good run and did feel worth it to me but I'm willing to experiment further.

>

> Sure powerful .. but still promoting passive play. That means the traits need to change if the issue is that minions are too passively played because it's certainly not minions or their associated active skills that make them powerful.

 

Very true. I don't know how much you can change that with traits though. Death nova does incentivize active play if a proper Minion Bomber build was in the game. The other traits do not and with the current way minions are one of the few option for them to do is to rework those traits to trigger on Summoning or death of a minion rather than just passive bonuses. You could also have the traits instead influence a weapon to modify the minions in some way. Like an example would be say, Warhorn's locus swarm giving them Superspeed and retaliation for 3-5 second or something like that. Don't take that example as something I'd suggest BTW. Giving retal to minions, although fun, would probably be too op. But it does give you ideas.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > My idea is just to fix the traits so they encourage people to use the minion skills, not just sit on minions. To be honest, I don't think specifics will be helpful here. The problem isn't with minions.

> > >

> > > The Minion Traits are already exceptionally powerful. In the old Raiding MM build the master trait made the master effectively immune to all conditions while the Grandmaster today is actually quite good. Without any changes to death if Minion skills or other means of spawning minions were made to be effective, the master and grandmaster traits would make death worth taking alone.

> > >

> > > I've actually seen some recommendations for death on scourge for Souless horror and Sloth because of those two traits. Although that build alteration takes no minion skills. I tried it myself though we didn't have a very good run and did feel worth it to me but I'm willing to experiment further.

> >

> > Sure powerful .. but still promoting passive play. That means the traits need to change if the issue is that minions are too passively played because it's certainly not minions or their associated active skills that make them powerful.

>

> Very true. I don't know how much you can change that with traits though. Death nova does incentivize active play if a proper Minion Bomber build was in the game. The other traits do not and with the current way minions are one of the few option for them to do is to rework those traits to trigger on Summoning or death of a minion rather than just passive bonuses. You could also have the traits instead influence a weapon to modify the minions in some way. Like an example would be say, Warhorn's locus swarm giving them Superspeed and retaliation for 3-5 second or something like that. Don't take that example as something I'd suggest BTW. Giving retal to minions, although fun, would probably be too op. But it does give you ideas.

 

Well, considering those three traits completely change how people use and play minions ... I think it could change quite a bit.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> My idea is just to fix the traits so they encourage people to use the minion skills, not just sit on minions. To be honest, I don't think specifics will be helpful here. The problem isn't with minions.

 

I do agree with that.

 

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Like an example would be say, Warhorn's locus swarm giving them Superspeed and retaliation for 3-5 second or something like that.

 

This is the wrong way to do thing. The necromancer certainly don't need traits to change weapon skills to support _minions_ specifically. The necromancer need it's minion traits to encourage the use of minion's active skills instead of encouraging passive use of the minions.

 

In short, the necromancer need minions to be mediocre to truly bad when used passively, yet able to shine when you directly command him to do something by using it's active skill. Weapon skills should have nothing to do in this unless it's within an e-spec that put minions at the center of it's priority and thus have minion generation in built at the core of it's gameplay (not dependant on utilities or major traits).

 

The issue is that death magic traits push minions from "mediocre" to "somewhat useful" when used passively, while the not so great active skills of the minion are totally ignored. Which mean that currently those (too many) minions traits are doing the opposite that they should do and plainly encourage passive use of minions (and it's especially true due to the fact that sometime using a minion active skill "sacrifice" a minion and thus make you benefit less from the traits. For example, it make _putrid explosion_ and it's lackluster and cluncky effects even less attractive to use than they naturally are, which is a pretty impressive feat).

[Redpawa.4108]

Going fully down either route would leave minions in a better state than they are currently. But with either option the life time of an individual minion should be soft-capped.

This would be done by adding a health degen effect of 1%/s (stacks every second), causing a base lifespan of 20 seconds, which can be delayed with healing.

 

If minion's were made a profession mechanic it would add more variety to the class outside of shroud. It would also allow minion traits to be split among the specializations, making MM builds have more complexity than 'Select DM, all top'.

Existing minion skills could be split between control skills and summon skills. Control skills would be basic commands to all active minions e.g. 'attack that spot', 'stop attacking and come to me'. They would be less specific and varied than ranger's commands but allow you to somewhat control your army. Summon skills would summon as minion to do a skill like phantasm skills, then set the minion to roam.

Existing weapon skills could be changed to summon skills when it fits e.g. Dagger 3 summoning a bone fiend to immobilize your foe.

 

If minions were specifically a skill type this would mean all but one of the minion traits could be removed. This would open up an additional 2 slots in DM, allowing some of the base defenses of necromancer to provided as traits. BM's Vampiric could also be buffed to a reasonable level if minions don't contribute. Finally it could be also be considered if Flesh Golem could be demoted to a utility skill (probably replacing Shadow Fiend), opening a spot for either well or signet elite skills.

Providing a useful elite would greatly benefit the class given existing elites either; lock you in a transform, apply self bleed, or can be killed.

[LucianDK.8615]

The minionmaster in gw1 took far more effort to do right.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> The minionmaster in gw1 took far more effort to do right.

 

True. Giving the _death nova_ buff to as many minion as possible, all while summoning them as soon as you could and sacrificing health to maintain them alive, was such a chore that you generally used the mercenaries to do it.

 

Maintaining the minion army and it's damage potential was a job in itself. In GW2, absolutely no effort is needed.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > The minionmaster in gw1 took far more effort to do right.

>

> True. Giving the _death nova_ buff to as many minion as possible, all while summoning them as soon as you could and sacrificing health to maintain them alive, was such a chore that you generally used the mercenaries to do it.

>

> Maintaining the minion army and it's damage potential was a job in itself. In GW2, absolutely no effort is needed.

 

I well remember when Factions opened, that people was positively begging for minionmasters to come for many of the harder missions. Like the infamous Vizunah square

[Lily.1935]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > The minionmaster in gw1 took far more effort to do right.

> >

> > True. Giving the _death nova_ buff to as many minion as possible, all while summoning them as soon as you could and sacrificing health to maintain them alive, was such a chore that you generally used the mercenaries to do it.

> >

> > Maintaining the minion army and it's damage potential was a job in itself. In GW2, absolutely no effort is needed.

>

> I well remember when Factions opened, that people was positively begging for minionmasters to come for many of the harder missions. Like the infamous Vizunah square

 

It was. Minion master essentially took the role of tank since the minions would draw so much Aggro and body block. And a good MM would be able to turn those minions into large pockets of damage. It was a lot more difficult of a build to use before the Aura of the Lich change.

[Lorin.9564]

Minion Master is a very good option for PVE - many AOE Damage for many Loot. I hope that Anet will give us a chance to get more acceptance in fractale or raids.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Lorin.9564" said:

> Minion Master is a very good option for PVE - many AOE Damage for many Loot. I hope that Anet will give us a chance to get more acceptance in fractale or raids.

 

Multiple minion builds would need to be birthed for that. Just a full minion bar probably wont cut it.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Lorin.9564" said:

> Minion Master is a very good option for PVE - many AOE Damage for many Loot. I hope that Anet will give us a chance to get more acceptance in fractale or raids.

 

Its dps isnt very high issue is that game encourage to use minions passivly but if they change minions to have more active play maybe make them provide heals or boons like heal minion also steal health for a squad and flesh golem could upkeep group wide stab

[Fractured.3928]

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

>

>

> 1. A rework to the current minions in both appearance, visuals in general and power.

> 2. Give a weapon (Staff) a rework and have it be the defecto cat-herding weapon. Right now for Ranger is Axe man-hand that gives our animal companion specific ability commands or well "Added" commands. Its one of the few, I feel Pushing staff to be the minion stick would help it have a place while also benefiting necromancers minions. Besides what kind of MM doesn't use a stick? (Could do Dagger/dagger too)

> 3. We would need added bonuses in the trait tree to be more impactful, such as for example perhaps one that makes it when a minion dies it does X. Which you could then build something around~

> 4. Likely they could fold some minions into one another.. (bone-horrors/shambling horrors could be merged with the shade. both being replaced by something more ghastly.)

> 5. Would need defenses for the caster based on minion type/amount.

>

> These are all things it would require, ontop of that I Feel like they need a overhaul to the theme of being a summoner. But who am I kidding... they will just make an E-spec for guardian in which it does minions better than necromancers do~

 

I agree with all of this.

 

1. I'd pay a lot of money to have skeleton skins over my minions, I'm just not a fan of the abomination/Frankenstein type Necro. Rats just cheap looking skeletons, or even zombies. Bone Fiend skeleton archer (Would prefer 2 though). Shadowfiend is fine. Flesh Golem could be more of a Death Knight. Blood Fiend could be a Skeleton Priest.

 

2. Staff needs a huge rework, and making it a MM stick sounds perfect. Both from the "Herding" lore perspective, and because its 2h.

 

3. The only thing I like about the skill tree is the poison rat synergy, about it sadly. Still hate exploding my rats though, doens't feel good.

 

 

[archmagus.7249]

> @"jpsssss.7530" said:

> Now if you want to talk PASSIVE, play flamethrower scrapper. Turn your brain off and collect the free PvP rating.

Passive, but not invincible. Going up against anyone with retaliation is a quick death.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Lorin.9564" said:

> > Minion Master is a very good option for PVE - many AOE Damage for many Loot. I hope that Anet will give us a chance to get more acceptance in fractale or raids.

>

> Its dps isnt very high issue is that game encourage to use minions passivly but if they change minions to have more active play maybe make them provide heals or boons like heal minion also steal health for a squad and flesh golem could upkeep group wide stab

 

They're not as passive as some think imo.

 

To be a real Minion Master in Gw2 you want to be playing a proper one man army playstyle so you need quantity over quality which makes Rise! pretty much an essential MM skill to have.. so Reaper becomes mandatory for a true MM build imo.

Just passively running around with utility minions isn't enough and you'll never see the true potential of minions just doing that.

 

Their DPS isn't all that impressive.. this is true and everyone would agree with that, but ultimately it doesn't matter unless you're the kind of player who demands the highest possible numbers when you hit things.

 

Anyway If there are 10+ minions whacking the same target, you can see that does stack up damage more than I think most people realise, specially since minions can and do on occasion land critical hits as well.. which is why a Minion Master will want to have as many as many minions as possible as often as possible, this is where the quantity over quality element starts to play it's part, and if you went with the Bloodmagic lifesteal abilities as well every minion you have gains an additional 101 lifesteal damage per attack in level 80 zones.

Yea I know it a tiny almost irrelevant bit of extra damage but 101 extra damage when you're running around with 10+ minions becomes 1010+ extra damage per the minions attack cycle which is hardly unwelcome, specially when you're also getting healed by a chunk of it.

MM's also get a lot of CC as well, Golem's charge, Reapers Shroud skills, Warhorn and the Greatsword plus there's some Immob and Chill too.. I personally get a lot of CC from my minion builds, specially from the Golem which applies 2 hard CC's not 1 which can wreck a defiance bar pretty hard if you use it right.

 

The true Strengths of Minions does come more from their defensive potential though, having them pulling conditions from you, absorbing damage for you, providing constant healing to you and directly buffing your toughness stat just by existing are all great in the PvE game.

The extra damage they provide is never going to give you the best DPS but it's not god awful damage either when you are playing a literal one man army lol

It's nice to have as well when you consider how slow Necro's are to stack damage due to their weapon pool consisting of either strong but slow weapons like Greatsword and Sceptor.. or fast but weak weapons like Dagger and Axe.

I guess the best way to say it would be.. minions complement the Necromancer in places where the Necromancer is a little lacking.

 

Necro is often claimed to be a class that can do everything but excells at nothing in Gw2 lol.. well I guess you could say Minions are in a way the same just in a utility form..

So a Minion Master is basically the ultimate jack of all trades playstyle you can have for a Necromancer in Gw2.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Teratus.2859"

 

You start up with:

 

> They're not as passive as some think imo.

 

Then basically proceed to sell the passive advantages of minions.

What you say is true (the passive advantages are more than worth it in an environment where they can matter), but that's very much passive gameplay, you seldom use an "active" skill in a MM build. In the end it doesn't invalidate Laila Lightness's own arguments.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> @"Teratus.2859"

>

> You start up with:

>

> > They're not as passive as some think imo.

>

> Then basically proceed to sell the passive advantages of minions.

> What you say is true (the passive advantages are more than worth it in an environment where they can matter), but that's very much passive gameplay, you seldom use an "active" skill in a MM build. In the end it doesn't invalidate Laila Lightness's own arguments.

 

Guess we have different takes on what passive gameplay means then.

I see it as summoning minions and letting them do everything while you just auto spam till you win, barely much more player input than an AFK farmer.

 

I don't play minions that way, nor can you play them that way if you aim to take full advantage of the one man army playstyle.

You need to actively maintain rise! not just for the extra minion count but also to take advantage of the Poison Nova's they create when they expire (which use the minions stats to deal damage)

 

I'll agree that some of the minion's active skills are pretty awful.. looking at Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend specifically but the others are pretty good.

Rigor Mortis (Bone Fiend) only provides a small bit of Immob which isn't all that useful anywhere really, except maybe PvP but it's highly situational and not worth the trade off.

Haunt (Shadow Fiend) Only really becomes decent if you trait for bonus chill and bleeds otherwise it's meh overall, since that requires curses it's hardly a trade off worth making unless you're intent on making a condi based MM.

Putrid Explosion (Bone Minions) is great and one of the only viable ways Necros have of accessing on command Blast Finishers.. and you can use it twice, plus it leaves a Poison Nova thanks to a minion sacrifice.

Necrotic Traversal (Flesh Wurm) is great in PvP but almost useless in PvE, it is a blast finisher though and does leave a Poison Nova so it has uses even if limited ones.

Charge (Flesh Golem) easily the best Elite skill Necro's have access to and if you use it correctly (which most people don't) it's a double hard CC that can decimate defiance bars, you need to make sure the Golems charge attack ends within the enemy's hitbox to get the double CC, if the Golem charges through the enemy it will only apply 1 CC instead.

So active minion control is something you need to get used to to play a proper MM, and the only way to do that is by target manipulation.. forcing your minions to go where you want them to go while pulling enemies around where you want them to be as well.. it's a lot more tricky to do than it sounds and definitely not something I would consider passive gameplay.

It's got more in common with how you can manipulate aggro and position with Ranger pets to take advantage of piercing arrows, though that has far more to do with maxing Longbows DPS than Minion play does for Necro.

 

As for my character's side of things, i'm also acting as what I like to call the combat medic of the group lol on top of managing minions and keeping my DPS up as high as the build allows for.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> >

> >

> > 1. A rework to the current minions in both appearance, visuals in general and power.

> > 2. Give a weapon (Staff) a rework and have it be the defecto cat-herding weapon. Right now for Ranger is Axe man-hand that gives our animal companion specific ability commands or well "Added" commands. Its one of the few, I feel Pushing staff to be the minion stick would help it have a place while also benefiting necromancers minions. Besides what kind of MM doesn't use a stick? (Could do Dagger/dagger too)

> > 3. We would need added bonuses in the trait tree to be more impactful, such as for example perhaps one that makes it when a minion dies it does X. Which you could then build something around~

> > 4. Likely they could fold some minions into one another.. (bone-horrors/shambling horrors could be merged with the shade. both being replaced by something more ghastly.)

> > 5. Would need defenses for the caster based on minion type/amount.

> >

> > These are all things it would require, ontop of that I Feel like they need a overhaul to the theme of being a summoner. But who am I kidding... they will just make an E-spec for guardian in which it does minions better than necromancers do~

>

> I agree with all of this.

>

> 1. I'd pay a lot of money to have skeleton skins over my minions, I'm just not a fan of the abomination/Frankenstein type Necro. Rats just cheap looking skeletons, or even zombies. Bone Fiend skeleton archer (Would prefer 2 though). Shadowfiend is fine. Flesh Golem could be more of a Death Knight. Blood Fiend could be a Skeleton Priest.

 

I remember when people kept repeating they'd pay a lot money for official build templates and we all know how happy they were after they got what they wanted :p

At least in this case it would be hard to backfire, might have some clarity issues though, but I don't think I'd personally have a problem with that.

...then again, I also don't have a problem with gw2 being its own thing, so w/e.

 

> 2. Staff needs a huge rework, and making it a MM stick sounds perfect. Both from the "Herding" lore perspective, and because its 2h.

 

Making a weapon reliant on elite skills (and elite skills reliant on the weapon) is pretty weird and I don't think it would be a good change at all.

Staff... I don't like it, but from what I see some people do, so saying it needs a huge rework is subjective. Unless it's old news now and nobody likes staff, which I doubt as I still see people running with it.

I really thing the idea of connecting weapon to elite skill type (and vice versa) should be dropped, I don't like that at all.

[Fractured.3928]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > 1. A rework to the current minions in both appearance, visuals in general and power.

> > > 2. Give a weapon (Staff) a rework and have it be the defecto cat-herding weapon. Right now for Ranger is Axe man-hand that gives our animal companion specific ability commands or well "Added" commands. Its one of the few, I feel Pushing staff to be the minion stick would help it have a place while also benefiting necromancers minions. Besides what kind of MM doesn't use a stick? (Could do Dagger/dagger too)

> > > 3. We would need added bonuses in the trait tree to be more impactful, such as for example perhaps one that makes it when a minion dies it does X. Which you could then build something around~

> > > 4. Likely they could fold some minions into one another.. (bone-horrors/shambling horrors could be merged with the shade. both being replaced by something more ghastly.)

> > > 5. Would need defenses for the caster based on minion type/amount.

> > >

> > > These are all things it would require, ontop of that I Feel like they need a overhaul to the theme of being a summoner. But who am I kidding... they will just make an E-spec for guardian in which it does minions better than necromancers do~

> >

> > I agree with all of this.

> >

> > 1. I'd pay a lot of money to have skeleton skins over my minions, I'm just not a fan of the abomination/Frankenstein type Necro. Rats just cheap looking skeletons, or even zombies. Bone Fiend skeleton archer (Would prefer 2 though). Shadowfiend is fine. Flesh Golem could be more of a Death Knight. Blood Fiend could be a Skeleton Priest.

>

> I remember when people kept repeating they'd pay a lot money for official build templates and we all know how happy they were after they got what they wanted :p

> At least in this case it would be hard to backfire, might have some clarity issues though, but I don't think I'd personally have a problem with that.

> ...then again, I also don't have a problem with gw2 being its own thing, so w/e.

>

> > 2. Staff needs a huge rework, and making it a MM stick sounds perfect. Both from the "Herding" lore perspective, and because its 2h.

>

> Making a weapon reliant on elite skills (and elite skills reliant on the weapon) is pretty weird and I don't think it would be a good change at all.

> Staff... I don't like it, but from what I see some people do, so saying it needs a huge rework is subjective. Unless it's old news now and nobody likes staff, which I doubt as I still see people running with it.

> I really thing the idea of connecting weapon to elite skill type (and vice versa) should be dropped, I don't like that at all.

 

We already have several weapons that are reliant on elite specs and such.

 

Anyways, I think an elite spec that changes how Staff works is completely fine. Or just rework the whole thing, I don't care either way.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 1. A rework to the current minions in both appearance, visuals in general and power.

> > > > 2. Give a weapon (Staff) a rework and have it be the defecto cat-herding weapon. Right now for Ranger is Axe man-hand that gives our animal companion specific ability commands or well "Added" commands. Its one of the few, I feel Pushing staff to be the minion stick would help it have a place while also benefiting necromancers minions. Besides what kind of MM doesn't use a stick? (Could do Dagger/dagger too)

> > > > 3. We would need added bonuses in the trait tree to be more impactful, such as for example perhaps one that makes it when a minion dies it does X. Which you could then build something around~

> > > > 4. Likely they could fold some minions into one another.. (bone-horrors/shambling horrors could be merged with the shade. both being replaced by something more ghastly.)

> > > > 5. Would need defenses for the caster based on minion type/amount.

> > > >

> > > > These are all things it would require, ontop of that I Feel like they need a overhaul to the theme of being a summoner. But who am I kidding... they will just make an E-spec for guardian in which it does minions better than necromancers do~

> > >

> > > I agree with all of this.

> > >

> > > 1. I'd pay a lot of money to have skeleton skins over my minions, I'm just not a fan of the abomination/Frankenstein type Necro. Rats just cheap looking skeletons, or even zombies. Bone Fiend skeleton archer (Would prefer 2 though). Shadowfiend is fine. Flesh Golem could be more of a Death Knight. Blood Fiend could be a Skeleton Priest.

> >

> > I remember when people kept repeating they'd pay a lot money for official build templates and we all know how happy they were after they got what they wanted :p

> > At least in this case it would be hard to backfire, might have some clarity issues though, but I don't think I'd personally have a problem with that.

> > ...then again, I also don't have a problem with gw2 being its own thing, so w/e.

> >

> > > 2. Staff needs a huge rework, and making it a MM stick sounds perfect. Both from the "Herding" lore perspective, and because its 2h.

> >

> > Making a weapon reliant on elite skills (and elite skills reliant on the weapon) is pretty weird and I don't think it would be a good change at all.

> > Staff... I don't like it, but from what I see some people do, so saying it needs a huge rework is subjective. Unless it's old news now and nobody likes staff, which I doubt as I still see people running with it.

> > I really thing the idea of connecting weapon to elite skill type (and vice versa) should be dropped, I don't like that at all.

>

> We already have several weapons that are reliant on elite specs and such.

>

> Anyways, I think an elite spec that changes how Staff works is completely fine. Or just rework the whole thing, I don't care either way.

 

I'm not in disagreement of that, however that does lock out another set of skills unless it provides us with a means to change on demand.

[Lily.1935]

I do feel that minions should be treated more like Guardian's Symbols. Maybe not to their level of ubiquity being on nearly every weapon, however more skills, non-minion skills, would be a good change of pace. Temporary minions attached to say Staff or Focus or both is good in my opinion. Minions already have some of that design baked in them with Jagged Horrors, Shambling horrors and Unstable horrors. None of those skills are linked to Minion skills. Jagged pops up from a Rune set and Death Nova, Shambling horrors from rise and Unstable horrors from lich Form. Why not expand this?

 

We could use Unstable horrors with Focus as a "Summon at location" strike skill that deals minor damage, generates life force and summons the unstable horror in the fray to attack. These Minions have a 6 second life span so it doesn't push the idea of Passivity since you need to be mindful of where you summon them. I made this suggestion in another post.

 

We could see A staff rework with one of the skills summoning something like "Blood Horrors" which also could have a short life that we can pop to heal allies that also have a limited life span. Of course I want staff reworked for a few different reasons, and one of my reasons is because of WvW interaction but I want to start a discussion on that another time. I personally feel that Putting marks on the side of a Keep limits interaction and is unhealthy for the format but others might disagree with me and This isn't something I'm set on so please, feel free to convince me why marks are good for WvW interactions.

 

I want more thoughtful interaction with minions. Mostly they're supplemental to builds. I've been running a minion build in Open world lately. Not what you'd expect though. I'm running a mix of Minion skills and corruptions and using a shroud burst type build where I just explode conditions on my foe when I enter shroud. its fun, but the minions are their to supplement my damage, they're secondary rather than the focus which is unfortunate.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Fractured.3928" said:

> > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 1. A rework to the current minions in both appearance, visuals in general and power.

> > > > 2. Give a weapon (Staff) a rework and have it be the defecto cat-herding weapon. Right now for Ranger is Axe man-hand that gives our animal companion specific ability commands or well "Added" commands. Its one of the few, I feel Pushing staff to be the minion stick would help it have a place while also benefiting necromancers minions. Besides what kind of MM doesn't use a stick? (Could do Dagger/dagger too)

> > > > 3. We would need added bonuses in the trait tree to be more impactful, such as for example perhaps one that makes it when a minion dies it does X. Which you could then build something around~

> > > > 4. Likely they could fold some minions into one another.. (bone-horrors/shambling horrors could be merged with the shade. both being replaced by something more ghastly.)

> > > > 5. Would need defenses for the caster based on minion type/amount.

> > > >

> > > > These are all things it would require, ontop of that I Feel like they need a overhaul to the theme of being a summoner. But who am I kidding... they will just make an E-spec for guardian in which it does minions better than necromancers do~

> > >

> > > I agree with all of this.

> > >

> > > 1. I'd pay a lot of money to have skeleton skins over my minions, I'm just not a fan of the abomination/Frankenstein type Necro. Rats just cheap looking skeletons, or even zombies. Bone Fiend skeleton archer (Would prefer 2 though). Shadowfiend is fine. Flesh Golem could be more of a Death Knight. Blood Fiend could be a Skeleton Priest.

> >

> > I remember when people kept repeating they'd pay a lot money for official build templates and we all know how happy they were after they got what they wanted :p

> > At least in this case it would be hard to backfire, might have some clarity issues though, but I don't think I'd personally have a problem with that.

> > ...then again, I also don't have a problem with gw2 being its own thing, so w/e.

> >

> > > 2. Staff needs a huge rework, and making it a MM stick sounds perfect. Both from the "Herding" lore perspective, and because its 2h.

> >

> > Making a weapon reliant on elite skills (and elite skills reliant on the weapon) is pretty weird and I don't think it would be a good change at all.

> > Staff... I don't like it, but from what I see some people do, so saying it needs a huge rework is subjective. Unless it's old news now and nobody likes staff, which I doubt as I still see people running with it.

> > I really thing the idea of connecting weapon to elite skill type (and vice versa) should be dropped, I don't like that at all.

>

> We already have several weapons that are reliant on elite specs and such.

 

Elite specs are "a bit" different from utility skill types...

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> I do feel that minions should be treated more like Guardian's Symbols. Maybe not to their level of ubiquity being on nearly every weapon, however more skills, non-minion skills, would be a good change of pace. Temporary minions attached to say Staff or Focus or both is good in my opinion. Minions already have some of that design baked in them with Jagged Horrors, Shambling horrors and Unstable horrors. None of those skills are linked to Minion skills. Jagged pops up from a Rune set and Death Nova, Shambling horrors from rise and Unstable horrors from lich Form. Why not expand this?

 

Probably because there's no need to spam with more minions just because someone wants to build tanky and still have the AI deal competitive damage while the player himself can do whatever they want to remain safe behind his personal zerg. That's my guess.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> I want more thoughtful interaction with minions. Mostly they're supplemental to builds.

 

Well ... the problem is that you think minions should be more like pets than just skills on a hotbar. OK, but the fact they are skills on a hotbar isn't going to change. yes, they are supplemental to builds ... which is exactly like how every skill on the hotbar is considered. Minions as a utility family are supposed to be supplemental. It makes no sense to even talk about changing them to be anything more than what they are; utility hotbar skills. Frankly, this is a GREAT example of how players make the wrong class choices based on how they want to play, then in a not sensible way, complain that they class they choose doesn't play the way they want it to.

 

If you want a more thoughtful interaction with a pet-like entity that isn't just supplemental .. you need to make the right class choices. That choice IS available.

 

Now, if you want to talk about less passive play WITHOUT completely changing the nature of minions or existing weapons to enhance minion builds (because that won't happen anyways), the solution was already given. I mean, if we just want to imagine thinks we would like ... that's cool. If you want to push that further into a direction for change, there is no separating that from the actual INTENT of the game.