Shouldn't Reaper be tankier?

[Al Masone.1274]

I thought that, from the start, reaper was supposed to be a resilient melee fighter. After, it is the melee spec/class with the least mobility, even lacking solid access to swiftness; it's cc, while strong, is very telegraphed and easy to miss, and lastly, it has very limited access to stability.

The reaper is not an actual tank, ok, but right now you have to equip pretty much only offensive stats in order to maximise damage, which isn't that great anyway, and that leaves you pretty squishy even considering death shroud. As soon as you try to add some tankiness, you start losing lots and lots of damage.

Marauder offers some health, but the necro already has a lot of it to begin with, and I'm finding that just health doesn't help much in tough situations.

When I use the Death Magic trait line I feel like I'm suriving way more damage, though I'm sacrificing a lot of crit chance by not taking Soul Reaping (Spite is still a must).

I guess a real problem in terms of balance is the shroud, which makes you practically immortal when it's not necessary, and barely gives you one more second of life when you actually need to survive some big damage.

Still, I think the reaper should be able to better fulfill his role of a resilient bruiser, and not being a discount red mage from final fantasy XIV, that hits attacks from a distance and then spikes at melee. You should always want to be in melee.

I don't deny that in an organised group you won't risk dieing too much, but on your own you are pretty squishy, if you try to reach the same dps potential of other classes.

So my question is: shouldn't the reaper either:

- Get more baseline defensives in the reaper traitline, so that you can itemise offensively while retaining enough damage?

- Get more baseline damage, and be encouraged to itemise half offensively/half defensively?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> I thought that, from the start, reaper was supposed to be a resilient melee fighter.

 

It was. But people complained that Necro couldn't do DPS, so they nerfed the defenses of Reaper and increased its damage. So it's now a somewhat decent DPS spec.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> After, it is the melee spec/class with the least mobility, even lacking solid access to swiftness; it's cc, while strong, is very telegraphed and easy to miss, and lastly, it has very limited access to stability.

 

That's just Necro in a nutshell to be honest. Part of Necro's "Class identity" is having no mobility, no good CC's (Besides a couple of Fears), no Stability and no defense outside of "High" health pool.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> I guess a real problem in terms of balance is the shroud, which makes you practically immortal when it's not necessary, and barely gives you one more second of life when you actually need to survive some big damage.

 

Pretty much.

 

Balance is screwed because of Shroud. Shroud is simultaneously a DPS increase and defensive increase, which would be broken if it applied both things in a reasonable amount, so it's tuned down as a result.

 

With the changes to Reaper, it's tuned more towards being a DPS increase as opposed to a defensive one.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> I don't deny that in an organised group you won't risk dieing too much, but on your own you are pretty squishy, if you try to reach the same dps potential of other classes.

 

Solo, Reaper is actually one of the best damage:resilience classes in the game. With very little needed to push out good damage while retaining defenses (Mauraders/Valkyrie is popular but even just going Death Magic + Blood Magic with full 'Zerker can let you just face-tank Champs due to the sheer amount of healing and mitigation you get from minions)

 

In organized groups, everyone that's dealing competitive damage is super squish. Many classes are more squishy than Necro by the inherent disparity from life totals (Necro has High base health vs Mesmer/Ranger/Engie/Revenant's Medium base health and Thief/Elementalist/Guardian's Low base health). Shroud provides an additional layer of defence for Necro (Though mitigating damage with LF in Shroud means lower DPS due to not being able to sustain the 10s of Shroud needed to maintain optimal DPS)

 

 

[Al Masone.1274]

> Solo, Reaper is actually one of the best damage:resilience classes in the game. With very little needed to push out good damage while retaining defenses (Mauraders/Valkyrie is popular but even just going Death Magic + Blood Magic with full 'Zerker can let you just face-tank Champs due to the sheer amount of healing and mitigation you get from minions)

>

> In organized groups, everyone that's dealing competitive damage is super squish. Many classes are more squishy than Necro by the inherent disparity from life totals (Necro has High base health vs Mesmer/Ranger/Engie/Revenant's Medium base health and Thief/Elementalist/Guardian's Low base health). Shroud provides an additional layer of defence for Necro (Though mitigating damage with LF in Shroud means lower DPS due to not being able to sustain the 10s of Shroud needed to maintain optimal DPS)

>

>

 

For the solo part, I'm not sure how relevant it is. I mean, it's an MMO, what's even point of being able to solo open world stuff? And aside for the simpler champs that don't give relevant loot anyway, you still need a group to do, well, group content (tequatl, drakkar, and so on...).

 

For organized groups, am I allowed to say dps -> squishy is kind of a design flaw? I mean sure, if you want to be top at something you need to sacrifice something else. But if all classes end up behaving the same where it matters, then everyone can pretty much roll the same class. Which is kinda what's happening with guardian right now.

Some classes are squishy and deal a lot of damage, so they need help in the form of healing and resilience boons. Necro's weakness should be its low mobility and susceptibility to cc, so he needs a support who can grant him mobility and stability. Wouldn't that improve diversity? I mean, if dps classes have different weaknesses, you can have other classes who provide different kinds of support, instead of one-size-fits-all guardian. Also the lack of mobility of the reaper already means that it can evade very few attacks, thus have to face tank most of the damage coming its way. I don't mean that it's not at all like this right now, you do get some modicum of survivability that other classes don't have, but I don't think it's quite enough to push the reaper into its niche of "Slow, tough, killy dude".

Ok, I realise that I kinda answered myself there, in that to fix reaper you'd have to fix the other classes and pretty much the way teamfights work.

And I guess the big problem at the center of it all will always be the shroud. Guess it should be about time for it to be removed and for necro overall to be reworked?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> I thought that, from the start, reaper was supposed to be a resilient melee fighter.

 

It is a resilient melee fighter, I'm not sure any other profession can dish out as much damage as a reaper with as much resilience it got. Players tend to focus on it's sustain and damage for reaper's builds but forget that he also got access to _"Rise!"_, _Infusing terror_, area weakness, area blindness on top of the core necromancer tools that can provide him with high toughness and high protection uptime.

 

> The reaper is not an actual tank, ok, but right now you have to equip pretty much only offensive stats in order to maximise damage, which isn't that great anyway, and that leaves you pretty squishy even considering death shroud. As soon as you try to add some tankiness, you start losing lots and lots of damage.

 

The reaper can't tank because he can't control a defiant foe through debilitating condition, not because he can't take a beating. The fact that it doesn't add some extra support to compensate for the dps loss due to building tanky reduce even more the likelyhood in being chosen as a tank. (but it doesn't have anything to do with it's ability to take on the damages from it's foes.)

 

> Marauder offers some health, but the necro already has a lot of it to begin with, and I'm finding that just health doesn't help much in tough situations.

> When I use the Death Magic trait line I feel like I'm suriving way more damage, though I'm sacrificing a lot of crit chance by not taking Soul Reaping (Spite is still a must).

 

Trading damage for survivability is good design thought.

 

> I guess a real problem in terms of balance is the shroud, which makes you practically immortal when it's not necessary, and barely gives you one more second of life when you actually need to survive some big damage.

 

Protection + "Rise!" will reduce incoming damage by more than 60%, it's not a block but you'd need a hit >40k to down you. Add _infusing terror_ into the fray as well as a bit of toughness and a -10% incoming damage food and you're nigh immun to direct damage. With weakness on top of that you even have the possibility to have the incoming damage halved.

 

And to top this off, you even have the possibility to leap (_death charge_) into a frost field (_excecutioner's scythe_) to gain frost aura for another 10% incoming damage reduction. And that's what you can get **Alone** against _defiant_ foes.

 

For non _defiant_ foes, the reaper can also capitalize on blind to negate incoming attack.

 

I don't see what good would come from more damage reduction from traits in the reaper's traitline knowing that all this is already there, at hand.

 

Edit: If I've properly understood how damage reduction modifier work, adding more damage redction modifiers on top of that wouldn't show significant damage reduction. If you pile up damage reduction mod you'd currently reduce incoming damage as a glass canon to 26% of what you'd have taken and if you were to build full toughness you'd only take 12% of the damage a glass canon would have taken. Thought, the result I gain from following the explanations feel fishy, but well... A trait with an extra 10% damage reduction would just take the incoming damage down from that by 1 or 2% in the end, which isn't significant.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> For organized groups, am I allowed to say dps -> squishy is kind of a design flaw?

 

You're allowed to say that.

 

You'd be wrong, but you can say it.

 

If someone could be resilient AND deal high DPS, then it'd be broken beyond belief. Since it means, you wouldn't need a "Tank" you'd just run everyone as the high defense and high offense class

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> But if all classes end up behaving the same where it matters, then everyone can pretty much roll the same class. Which is kinda what's happening with guardian right now.

 

Actually, it's the opposite. If all classes end up behaving the same where it matters, then anyone can pick whatever class they want.

 

People flocking towards Guardian is happening **because** classes don't behave the same where it matters. Guardian has the edge over other classes in terms of DPS, Versatility and Defense (Thanks to a plethora of Aegis procs).

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> Wouldn't that improve diversity? I mean, if dps classes have different weaknesses, you can have other classes who provide different kinds of support, instead of one-size-fits-all guardian.

 

Not really. You'd just be arbitrarily filtering out classes who's weaknesses don't get easily solved by the overall good supports.

 

Like, mobility is a non-weakness in PvE because bosses don't move very much.

Defense is a non-weakness in PvE, since only the Tank should be taking hits.

Healing is a non-weakness in PvE, since only the Healer should be doing this.

Boon availability is a non-weakness in PvE, since the specific Supports should be providing these.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> Also the lack of mobility of the reaper already means that it can evade very few attacks, thus have to face tank most of the damage coming its way.

 

What?

 

Necro still has a dodge button which works exactly the same as it does for everyone else (Except for Daredevil and Mirage whom need to use their dodges for DPS)

 

Not to mention, Swiftness is easily provided to a party and thus the Necromancer.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> And I guess the big problem at the center of it all will always be the shroud. Guess it should be about time for it to be removed and for necro overall to be reworked?

 

Reworking Shroud would help solve a lot of Necro's issues (Both Core and Reaper) in both PvE and PvP. However, ANet have been spending years doubling down on this awkward design, so it seems unlikely they'll suddenly rework it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Mobility: Speed of Shadows + Runes of Speed. GG you now have the best speed available outside of superspeed. You also have a leap in Shroud as a Reaper with a low CD and as a bonus the runes give you vitality and thus more lifeforce.

 

Defense: Shroud is 50% reduction, 10% reduction food, Spectral Armor for Protection at 33%, leap into a ice field for another 10%, Rise for 33%, Infusing Terror for another 20%. That comes out to 85% reduced damage unless some of those stack additively (most stack multiplicatively but some modifiers are additive like the Guardian signet). Throw in weakness and you have 93% damage reduction half of the time and 85% the other half. Not that you'd even need half of this to survive. Dropping Rise and frost armor from the equation still leaves you at 75% damage reduction.

 

You need Condi removal? Consume Conditions or a Sigil of Cleansing should cover that. If not Death Magic can cover it while giving you 300-600 toughness (game mode dependent) and 300 Power and either pulsing Protection or a get out of death free card (redeemable once every 30-120 seconds if at least 10% lifeforce exists).

 

There is a reason why in this current meta that players complain about necros in general being unkillable.

 

Now for PvE... don't stand in the red circles and dodge the telegraphed attacks. Or just take the 75-85% reduced damage and camp Shroud ftw.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> I thought that, from the start, reaper was supposed to be a resilient melee fighter.

 

You are thinking of core. Reaper is a high-cleave specialization of Necromancer. That is why shroud decay rate is higher.

 

With that said, Reaper has lots of chill for sustain.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Mobility: Speed of Shadows + Runes of Speed. GG you now have the best speed available outside of superspeed. You also have a leap in Shroud as a Reaper with a low CD and as a bonus the runes give you vitality and thus more lifeforce.

>

> Defense: Shroud is 50% reduction, 10% reduction food, Spectral Armor for Protection at 33%, leap into a ice field for another 10%, Rise for 33%, Infusing Terror for another 20%. That comes out to 85% reduced damage unless some of those stack additively (most stack multiplicatively but some modifiers are additive like the Guardian signet). Throw in weakness and you have 93% damage reduction half of the time and 85% the other half. Not that you'd even need half of this to survive. Dropping Rise and frost armor from the equation still leaves you at 75% damage reduction.

>

> You need Condi removal? Consume Conditions or a Sigil of Cleansing should cover that. If not Death Magic can cover it while giving you 300-600 toughness (game mode dependent) and 300 Power and either pulsing Protection or a get out of death free card (redeemable once every 30-120 seconds if at least 10% lifeforce exists).

>

> There is a reason why in this current meta that players complain about necros in general being unkillable.

>

> Now for PvE... don't stand in the red circles and dodge the telegraphed attacks. Or just take the 75-85% reduced damage and camp Shroud ftw.

 

From what I've gathered, the damage reduction mods don't reduce damage per se but increase your effective armor in the damage formula. (I'm not sure the shroud damage reduction is part of these maths, thought). That said, there is indeed no reason to look for more damage reduction on the reaper, it's potential damage reduction is already far beyond core necromancer which is seen as very tanky (And, Yes, I find it funny to see that some players believe core to be tankier than reaper).

[KrHome.1920]

Pop spectral armor before entering shroud and you need 5 players to kill you in less than 10 seconds. There is only one spec that can burst through all your defense with ease and that is a glass soulbeast and I hope this will see a huge nerf in the next balance patch as it can ignore the defenses of pretty much every class in the game.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Mobility: Speed of Shadows + Runes of Speed. GG you now have the best speed available outside of superspeed. You also have a leap in Shroud as a Reaper with a low CD and as a bonus the runes give you vitality and thus more lifeforce.

> >

> > Defense: Shroud is 50% reduction, 10% reduction food, Spectral Armor for Protection at 33%, leap into a ice field for another 10%, Rise for 33%, Infusing Terror for another 20%. That comes out to 85% reduced damage unless some of those stack additively (most stack multiplicatively but some modifiers are additive like the Guardian signet). Throw in weakness and you have 93% damage reduction half of the time and 85% the other half. Not that you'd even need half of this to survive. Dropping Rise and frost armor from the equation still leaves you at 75% damage reduction.

> >

> > You need Condi removal? Consume Conditions or a Sigil of Cleansing should cover that. If not Death Magic can cover it while giving you 300-600 toughness (game mode dependent) and 300 Power and either pulsing Protection or a get out of death free card (redeemable once every 30-120 seconds if at least 10% lifeforce exists).

> >

> > There is a reason why in this current meta that players complain about necros in general being unkillable.

> >

> > Now for PvE... don't stand in the red circles and dodge the telegraphed attacks. Or just take the 75-85% reduced damage and camp Shroud ftw.

>

> From what I've gathered, the damage reduction mods don't reduce damage per se but increase your effective armor in the damage formula. (I'm not sure the shroud damage reduction is part of these maths, thought). That said, there is indeed no reason to look for more damage reduction on the reaper, it's potential damage reduction is already far beyond core necromancer which is seen as very tanky (And, Yes, I find it funny to see that some players believe core to be tankier than reaper).

 

They believe that only because core shroud last longer and is ranged for better kiting.

[Randulf.7614]

It was meant to be a slow, resilient spec and built around a new way damaging via chill.

 

All of that was retracted and they took Reaper in a different direction. That isn't to say it isn't entirely resilient or a useless spec - by no means. They just decided the spec wasn't really going to work as that Jason Vorhees type class they intended so changed it

[KrHome.1920]

It all began with the rework that movement impairing conditions do not affect leap distances anymore (chill used to decrease the leap distance of your target by 66% and cripple by 50%, so basically no one could disengage with a leap from you). That deleted the concept of reaper and they shifted the spec away from the horror movie monster to some semi tanky, semi mobile, aoe burst spec.

 

New players might not believe this these days, but a pure melee reaper (GS+d/wh) used to be viable. Chill with GS or cripple with warhorn5 (pre rework) or on entering shroud with spiteful spirit and you could stick to your target for the whole fight. Frequent shroud access due to 7s cooldown leading to frequent leap access to the target was also a thing. Reaper felt completely different.

 

Btw. swiftness increased the leap distance by 33%. So under the effect of swiftness RS2 was an 800 unit leap. Everyone can imagine how impactful swiftness to cripple corruptions have been in that time.

[Black Storm.6974]

Initially Reaper was exactly what was supposed to be, it was something that, as the developer said, others shouldn’t fight melee. Its damage was quite low, its high defence and its access to Stability allowed Reaper to be a resilient melee fighter.

 

Very soon people complained, the access to Stability got a heavy nerf, the Shout ”Rise!” too. Reaper as a resilient melee fighter was already dead.

 

Then, patch after patch its defence got sacrificed in favour of additional damage.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> It all began with the rework that movement impairing conditions do not affect leap distances anymore (chill used to decrease the leap distance of your target by 66% and cripple by 50%, so basically no one could disengage with a leap from you). That deleted the concept of reaper and they shifted the spec away from the horror movie monster to some semi tanky, semi mobile, aoe burst spec.

>

> New players might not believe this these days, but a pure melee reaper (GS+d/wh) used to be viable. Chill with GS or cripple with warhorn5 (pre rework) or on entering shroud with spiteful spirit and you could stick to your target for the whole fight. Frequent shroud access due to 7s cooldown leading to frequent leap access to the target was also a thing. Reaper felt completely different.

>

> Btw. swiftness increased the leap distance by 33%. So under the effect of swiftness RS2 was an 800 unit leap. Everyone can imagine how impactful swiftness to cripple corruptions have been in that time.

 

I almost teared up. Those were the days...

[Lily.1935]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> It all began with the rework that movement impairing conditions do not affect leap distances anymore (chill used to decrease the leap distance of your target by 66% and cripple by 50%, so basically no one could disengage with a leap from you). That deleted the concept of reaper and they shifted the spec away from the horror movie monster to some semi tanky, semi mobile, aoe burst spec.

>

> New players might not believe this these days, but a pure melee reaper (GS+d/wh) used to be viable. Chill with GS or cripple with warhorn5 (pre rework) or on entering shroud with spiteful spirit and you could stick to your target for the whole fight. Frequent shroud access due to 7s cooldown leading to frequent leap access to the target was also a thing. Reaper felt completely different.

>

> Btw. swiftness increased the leap distance by 33%. So under the effect of swiftness RS2 was an 800 unit leap. Everyone can imagine how impactful swiftness to cripple corruptions have been in that time.

 

This returning would make PvP and WvW more interested honestly.

[Redpawa.4108]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> From what I've gathered, the damage reduction mods don't reduce damage per se but increase your effective armor in the damage formula. (I'm not sure the shroud damage reduction is part of these maths, thought). That said, there is indeed no reason to look for more damage reduction on the reaper, it's potential damage reduction is already far beyond core necromancer which is seen as very tanky (And, Yes, I find it funny to see that some players believe core to be tankier than reaper).

 

Damage Taken = Weapon Damage * Skill coefficient * (Power / Armor) * (Damage Modifiers / Defensive Modifiers)

 

e.g. Protection + Infusing Terror + Shroud reduction

0.26 = (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.5)

So you take 26% of normal damage, which is the same as a 3.85x armor modifier

[KrHome.1920]

> @"dceptaconroy.7928" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > It all began with the rework that movement impairing conditions do not affect leap distances anymore (chill used to decrease the leap distance of your target by 66% and cripple by 50%, so basically no one could disengage with a leap from you). That deleted the concept of reaper and they shifted the spec away from the horror movie monster to some semi tanky, semi mobile, aoe burst spec.

> >

> > New players might not believe this these days, but a pure melee reaper (GS+d/wh) used to be viable. Chill with GS or cripple with warhorn5 (pre rework) or on entering shroud with spiteful spirit and you could stick to your target for the whole fight. Frequent shroud access due to 7s cooldown leading to frequent leap access to the target was also a thing. Reaper felt completely different.

> >

> > Btw. swiftness increased the leap distance by 33%. So under the effect of swiftness RS2 was an 800 unit leap. Everyone can imagine how impactful swiftness to cripple corruptions have been in that time.

>

> I almost teared up. Those were the days...

Haha me too, seriously I got a bit depressed for a minute after I wrote that text. It is a shame.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Redpawa.4108" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > From what I've gathered, the damage reduction mods don't reduce damage per se but increase your effective armor in the damage formula. (I'm not sure the shroud damage reduction is part of these maths, thought). That said, there is indeed no reason to look for more damage reduction on the reaper, it's potential damage reduction is already far beyond core necromancer which is seen as very tanky (And, Yes, I find it funny to see that some players believe core to be tankier than reaper).

>

> Damage Taken = Weapon Damage * Skill coefficient * (Power / Armor) * (Damage Modifiers / Defensive Modifiers)

>

> e.g. Protection + Infusing Terror + Shroud reduction

> 0.26 = (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.5)

> So you take 26% of normal damage, which is the same as a 3.85x armor modifier

 

Ah, that make more sense than what I've read. Thought, the numbers at the end tend to be close.

 

So if you add _"Rise!"_, food and _frost aura_ into the fray, you take:

(1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.2) = 0.145%

Or 14.5% of the damage, equivalent to a 6.9x armor modifier. (That is, if I properly your understood your explanation)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Redpawa.4108" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > From what I've gathered, the damage reduction mods don't reduce damage per se but increase your effective armor in the damage formula. (I'm not sure the shroud damage reduction is part of these maths, thought). That said, there is indeed no reason to look for more damage reduction on the reaper, it's potential damage reduction is already far beyond core necromancer which is seen as very tanky (And, Yes, I find it funny to see that some players believe core to be tankier than reaper).

> >

> > Damage Taken = Weapon Damage * Skill coefficient * (Power / Armor) * (Damage Modifiers / Defensive Modifiers)

> >

> > e.g. Protection + Infusing Terror + Shroud reduction

> > 0.26 = (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.5)

> > So you take 26% of normal damage, which is the same as a 3.85x armor modifier

>

> Ah, that make more sense than what I've read. Thought, the numbers at the end tend to be close.

>

> So if you add _"Rise!"_, food and _frost aura_ into the fray, you take:

> (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.33) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.2) = 0.145%

> Or 14.5% of the damage, equivalent to a 6.9x armor modifier. (That is, if I properly your understood your explanation)

 

That is how it works. It can be mapped to an effective toughness increase, since there is an equivalent amount of increased toughness that achieves the same effect, but that amount of extra toughness does not exist in game.

 

So for Protection, Infusing Terror, Shroud, Rise, Frost aura, food, and for kicks and giggles Scrapper Runes:

(1-0.33)*(1-0.2)*(1-0.5)*(1-0.33)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.07) = 13.5%

 

Some damage reduction sources actually stack additively, like the guardian signet, but those are few and far between.

Guardian example: Protection, frost aura, food, Hunter's Fortification, scrapper runes, Signet with perfect inscrptions:

(0.67*0.9*0.9*0.9*0.93)-0.125 = 32.9%.

 

Because of Shroud and Infusing Terror I believe Reaper is able to reduce damage taken the MOST out of all the professions and e-specs.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Because of Shroud and Infusing Terror I believe Reaper is able to reduce damage taken the MOST out of all the professions and e-specs.

Yes, if 5% shroud degneration didn't exist, this would actually have potential.

 

Half of the damage reduction of that "second health bar" is negated by its degeneration. That's intended (the higher the degeneration, the lower the time you have to kite shroud) and that's why the numbers sound more impressive than they are.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Because of Shroud and Infusing Terror I believe Reaper is able to reduce damage taken the MOST out of all the professions and e-specs.

 

I would say that _"rise!"_ is also an important part of that.

That said, you're wrong, core revenant is the one that is able to reduce damage taken the most out of all professions and e-specs, it's less reliable thought and you need teammates to fully realise the potential. (salvation/retribution/corruption + staff)

- Ancient echo (great dwarf): 50%

- Protection: 33%

- vigor: 15%

- vengeful hammer: 20%

- close quarter: 10%

- Unyielding devotion: 15%

- Demonic resistance: 33%

- Forced engagement: 33%

- Food: 10%

 

With a group to provide prot and resistance everything else can be taken care by himself and thus it can theoretically reach a maximum of:

0.5x0.67x0.67x0.67x0.85x0.8x0.9x0.85x0.9=0.07 or 7%

 

To my knowledge that highest damage reduction currently achievable outside of a block/invuln/dodge/blurr and without scrapper runes and guardian sharing it's signet through _perfect inscription_.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Because of Shroud and Infusing Terror I believe Reaper is able to reduce damage taken the MOST out of all the professions and e-specs.

>

> I would say that _"rise!"_ is also an important part of that.

> That said, you're wrong, core revenant is the one that is able to reduce damage taken the most out of all professions and e-specs, it's less reliable thought and you need teammates to fully realise the potential. (salvation/retribution/corruption + staff)

> - Ancient echo (great dwarf): 50%

> - Protection: 33%

> - vigor: 15%

> - vengeful hammer: 20%

> - close quarter: 10%

> - Unyielding devotion: 15%

> - Demonic resistance: 33%

> - Forced engagement: 33%

> - Food: 10%

>

> With a group to provide prot and resistance everything else can be taken care by himself and thus it can theoretically reach a maximum of:

> 0.5x0.67x0.67x0.67x0.85x0.8x0.9x0.85x0.9=0.07 or 7%

>

> To my knowledge that highest damage reduction currently achievable outside of a block/invuln/dodge/blurr and without scrapper runes and guardian sharing it's signet through _perfect inscription_.

 

Less reliable true. How would such a build handle DPS wise though? You'd realistically have to rely on teammates to provide the protection, and if you are in GDS you'd need them to provide the resistance, so without those you'd cap at (throwing in Scrapper runes):

.5*.85*.8*.9*.85*.67*.93 = 14.5%. If you don't include Unyielding Devotion (ya now so you can focus on DPS) you'd have 17.2%.

 

The topline of 7% is only for PvE, in WvW for instance it becomes 9.4%, but is again dependent on Protection from somewhere, without which it is 14%.

 

Fun times. And people wonder while their MemeFlame and MemeShots only do 2k on a crit versus some players.