saerni.2584 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @saerni.2584 said: > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. ****How it actually should work:**** **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @"Arricson Krei.9560" said: > I think the dps of conditions needs to decrease, durations need a very substantial increase, and application frequency needs to go up. Condis began going in the wrong direction as soon as skills applied multiple stacks for only a few seconds... that's moving closer to burst dps instead of the sustained dps that condis were designed for. This means that necro scepter AA should be applying 15s bleeds and non-AA skills like Necro scepter 2 could still apply >1 stack for 20s or so. I also think power scaling on condi weapons should increase and condis should be delivered from many more skills, specifically from power-based weapons. > > Like Ubi.4136 said above, condi damage should not be threatening within the first 3 seconds of combat (despite 3 seconds is kind of an arbitrary number). Condis should ramp up overtime. If players decide to clear condis at an early stage, then they will suffer for it later on. If they wait until the condis are already stacked and space out their clears, then they _should_ be able to deal with condis effectively while slowly losing health overtime. Condi clears should be on short cooldown if they clear 1-2 condis and long cooldown if they clear >5 condis or so. Take Smite Conditions and Contemplation of Purity, for example. Although Smite Conditions would be a little too frequent if these ideas were to go through. Effects that clear condis every interval would have to be looked at too. > > Condi damage cannot "ramp" if it peaks within mere seconds and drastically falls off shortly after. It should be a slow and steady increase. One problem is that some of the hardest hitting condi skills activate instantly _and_ apply multiple conditions or apply multiple conditions in one packet (e.g. "burst" condi). Like with power-based skills, some of the hardest hitting skills are channeled (hundred blades) or situational (backstab). I think in order for condi damage to appropriately ramp, more skills with cast times need to apply long duration conditions that individually (i.e. at one stack) deals insignificant damage. Condis will ramp via skills that have casting times and therefore cannot "burst" because condition application is soft-time-gated behind casting times. I think you're diagnosing the problem correctly, but I have a different view of the solution. I think it's fine if condi apexes at 6 seconds, because that means it's balanced in both PvP and PvE. Making it substantially longer will really gimp it in PvP. Going in the opposite direction will overpower it even more in PvE. Since the hardest fights will always be longer fights, balancing it in this way will always give the overall advantage to condition damage over direct damage. That's why the primary balancing mechanic has to be armor, unless they are planning to make armor start mitigating condition damage, which I highly doubt. Condition damage should peak at 5-6 seconds into the fight, but it shouldn't automatically be outdamaging direct damage at that point - whether it does or not should largely depend on the target's armor value. At mid-range armor values, it should start slightly outdamaging direct damage at around the 6 second mark. At low armor values, it should never overtake direct damage. At high armor values, it should be significantly outdamaging direct damage by 3 seconds in. To me, the fact that it doesn't already work this way (in most cases) is a very unambiguous demonstration of how condition damage is overtuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offair.2563 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Make conditions reflectable so condi spammers will think twice like a power build has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @saerni.2584 said: > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > ****How it actually should work:**** > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Adenin.5973 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 You misunderstand me Einlanzer. Of course armor should change those numbers. Just as more or less cleanse can change those numbers. I’m merely pointing out that in order to reduce the burst nature of conditions you need to eliminate the reason why burst is necessary: that is the abundance of cleanse. I don’t mean my numbers as serious suggestions. A condition user can expect to do more or less damage based on cleanses. Just as a power user can expect differences depending on armor. Ignoring that cleanse/armor adjusts the DPS a condition build should ramp up to higher DPS later. A power build should front load their damage. That said, a low cleanse target may die faster to a condition build (be burst down) than to a power build (assuming it has power damage mitigation). Or, a high cleanse target may take less damage even after a long period of time compared to a power build (assuming low armor). But, assuming equal armor and cleanse the short term game should power focused and the long term game condition focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @saerni.2584 said: > You misunderstand me Einlanzer. > > Of course armor should change those numbers. Just as more or less cleanse can change those numbers. > > I’m merely pointing out that in order to reduce the burst nature of conditions you need to eliminate the reason why burst is necessary: that is the abundance of cleanse. > > I don’t mean my numbers as serious suggestions. A condition user can expect to do more or less damage based on cleanses. Just as a power user can expect differences depending on armor. Ignoring that cleanse/armor adjusts the DPS a condition build should ramp up to higher DPS later. A power build should front load their damage. > > That said, a low cleanse target may die faster to a condition build (be burst down) than to a power build (assuming it has power damage mitigation). Or, a high cleanse target may take less damage even after a long period of time compared to a power build (assuming low armor). > > But, assuming equal armor and cleanse the short term game should power focused and the long term game condition focused. Yes, I more or less agree. However, my argument is that cleanses should be less abundant, and that condition damage should be downtuned. This would create better balance between the two, where the average glass target would be more susceptible to direct damage even over the long term. It is my adamant opinion that the paradigm of "conditions should always do more if you assume x length of time" is folly. Maybe if you assume a mid-high range armor value, but not otherwise. I also will restate my view here that "condi burst" is a red herring. Condi should be burstable to an extent, it just shouldn't result in the high short term damage it does. But, the problem is not the "burst" (as in the rapid fire succession of condition-landing), it's the tuning on the damage ticks. Immunity and cleansing mechanics are too prolific in the game, and too necessary to counter conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. I get it. You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I question just how many condition builds the OP has played. Condi burst is not available to every condition build, only to some. Condi burst is indeed an issue, but an issue with specific builds does not call for an overall nerf of a damage type. Rather than an overall nerf, what needs to happen is adjustments to both the amount of stacks and the variety of conditions that certain builds can apply. Dealing with specific high-performing builds on certain professions is what's called for, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Adenin.5973 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > I get it. > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @IndigoSundown.5419 said: > I question just how many condition builds the OP has played. Condi burst is not available to every condition build, only to some. Condi burst is indeed an issue, but an issue with specific builds does not call for an overall nerf of a damage type. Rather than an overall nerf, what needs to happen is adjustments to both the amount of stacks and the variety of conditions that certain builds can apply. Dealing with specific high-performing builds on certain professions is what's called for, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. It affects some skills more than others, but condition damage is generally over-tuned because they are using a bad balancing paradigm, and they need to change it. I'm not sure how I can make it more clear. Condition damage should not outdps direct damage in a fight with a low-armor target no matter how long the fight lasts. The fact that it routinely does is all the evidence we need to conclude that conditions are (generally speaking) overpowered. Here's a rundown of how it currently works (obviously, there's significant variation based on specific builds, this constitutes a very rough average across professions) low armor - direct starts strong, but condi takes over after a few seconds and stabilizes with condi being about 10% stronger medium armor - they start kind of even, but after a few seconds they stabilize with condi being about 25% stronger high armor - condi dominates pretty much right away, stabilizing at 40+% of DPS Here's a rundown of how it should work low armor - direct starts off really strong, and stabilizes around 10% higher than condi DPS. medium armor - direct starts off pretty strong, but they stabilize with condi being about 10% higher high armor - they start off fairly even, but condi quickly passes direct and stabilizes at around 30% higher And, again, we have too much immunity & cleansing popping up everywhere in the game as a result of over-tuned condition damage. This all needs to be peeled back and moderated better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 A low cleanse low armor target should die quickly regardless if active mitigation is being used (evade and block especially). For a low armor low cleanse target I see no problem with condi outdoing power in the long term (although both would likely be effective after active mitigation is exhausted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @saerni.2584 said: > A low cleanse low armor target should die quickly regardless if active mitigation is being used (evade and block especially). > > For a low armor low cleanse target I see no problem with condi outdoing power in the long term (although both would likely be effective after active mitigation is exhausted). I don't know why you see no problem with it, since that basically means that conditions are _always_ more meta than direct damage and toughness is always more or less useless as an attribute. Cleanse should be way less of a thing than it is in general. This is actually how the original game was designed, and they borked it all up when they did all that condition reworking a couple of years back. You cannot balance direct damage vs condition damage solely around fight duration when one game mode (the one they balance around) is dominated by short fight durations and the other (the one most players care about) is dominated by long fight duration. It's not rocket science, which is why it wasn't how the original game was designed. It's just that we now have a balance team that doesn't know what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said: > > I question just how many condition builds the OP has played. Condi burst is not available to every condition build, only to some. Condi burst is indeed an issue, but an issue with specific builds does not call for an overall nerf of a damage type. Rather than an overall nerf, what needs to happen is adjustments to both the amount of stacks and the variety of conditions that certain builds can apply. Dealing with specific high-performing builds on certain professions is what's called for, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. > > It affects some skills more than others, but condition damage is generally over-tuned because they are using a bad balancing paradigm, and they need to change it. I'm not sure how I can make it more clear. Condition damage should not outdps direct damage in a fight with a low-armor target no matter how long the fight lasts. The fact that it routinely does is all the evidence we need to conclude that conditions are (generally speaking) overpowered. > > Here's a rundown of how it currently works (obviously, there's significant variation based on specific builds, this constitutes a very rough average across professions) > low armor - direct starts strong, but condi takes over after a few seconds and stabilizes with condi being about 10% stronger > medium armor - they start kind of even, but after a few seconds they stabilize with condi being about 25% stronger > high armor - condi dominates pretty much right away, stabilizing at 40+% of DPS > > Here's a rundown of how it should work > low armor - direct starts off really strong, and stabilizes around 10% higher than condi DPS. > medium armor - direct starts off pretty strong, but they stabilize with condi being about 10% higher > high armor - they start off fairly even, but condi quickly passes direct and stabilizes at around 30% higher > > And, again, we have too much immunity & cleansing popping up everywhere in the game as a result of over-tuned condition damage. This all needs to be peeled back and moderated better. Unless you can prove to ANet (which should also convince me) that the overall state of conditions damage is as you say, you will not see broad, sweeping changes. At the moment I'm not convinced. Anecdotes such as the above "rundowns" don't cut it, and neither does referring to the numbers obtained on target dummies with full raid buffs. I agree with you, though, that there is too much in the game. However, I believe there is too much everything, including things which both buff and counter direct damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @IndigoSundown.5419 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said: > > > I question just how many condition builds the OP has played. Condi burst is not available to every condition build, only to some. Condi burst is indeed an issue, but an issue with specific builds does not call for an overall nerf of a damage type. Rather than an overall nerf, what needs to happen is adjustments to both the amount of stacks and the variety of conditions that certain builds can apply. Dealing with specific high-performing builds on certain professions is what's called for, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. > > > > It affects some skills more than others, but condition damage is generally over-tuned because they are using a bad balancing paradigm, and they need to change it. I'm not sure how I can make it more clear. Condition damage should not outdps direct damage in a fight with a low-armor target no matter how long the fight lasts. The fact that it routinely does is all the evidence we need to conclude that conditions are (generally speaking) overpowered. > > > > Here's a rundown of how it currently works (obviously, there's significant variation based on specific builds, this constitutes a very rough average across professions) > > low armor - direct starts strong, but condi takes over after a few seconds and stabilizes with condi being about 10% stronger > > medium armor - they start kind of even, but after a few seconds they stabilize with condi being about 25% stronger > > high armor - condi dominates pretty much right away, stabilizing at 40+% of DPS > > > > Here's a rundown of how it should work > > low armor - direct starts off really strong, and stabilizes around 10% higher than condi DPS. > > medium armor - direct starts off pretty strong, but they stabilize with condi being about 10% higher > > high armor - they start off fairly even, but condi quickly passes direct and stabilizes at around 30% higher > > > > And, again, we have too much immunity & cleansing popping up everywhere in the game as a result of over-tuned condition damage. This all needs to be peeled back and moderated better. > > Unless you can prove to ANet (which should also convince me) that the overall state of conditions damage is as you say, you will not see broad, sweeping changes. At the moment I'm not convinced. Anecdotes such as the above "rundowns" don't cut it, and neither does referring to the numbers obtained on target dummies with full raid buffs. > > I agree with you, though, that there is too much in the game. However, I believe there is too much everything, including things which both buff and counter direct damage. Unfortunately, Arenanet isn't listening to me. It's too bad, because if I was put in charge of game balance i have no doubt I could make substantial improvements in about a hundred different areas that are getting either no attention or the wrong type of attention currently. I don't disagree that the game is too dominated by buff-type effects in more areas than just cleansing and immunity. They've made the gameplay too complex (in a bad way) to be properly handled by the skill/trait system we have, frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > I get it. > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, food, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Adenin.5973 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > > > I get it. > > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. > > > What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. > > So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only high level niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. > > What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. > > And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. > We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. Except they don't. Condi does extremely well even against _trash mobs while leveling_, because even a few seconds is usually enough to give condi the advantage. If there's any solution warranted here whatsoever, which I'm not convinced there is, it's to have more high-armored mobs. Have you leveled with a condi spec vs a direct spec lately? 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Adenin.5973 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > > > > > I get it. > > > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > > > > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > > > > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > > > > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > > > > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. > > > > So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only high level niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. > > > > What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. > > > > And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. > > We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. > > Except they don't. Condi does extremely well even against _trash mobs while leveling_, because even a few seconds is usually enough to give condi the advantage. If there's any solution warranted here whatsoever, which I'm not convinced there is, it's to have more high-armored mobs. > > Have you leveled with a condi spec vs a direct spec lately? Yes, I leveled with a condi spec, it was easier true. But I also recently leveled with a mount and one hitted everything so we shouldn't jump to conclusions. I ususally play condition Soulbeast and I use pets that can spam AoE conditions pretty well. I have no problems against several enemies in PoF. Game feels relatively smooth, except when several waves of enemies spawn close to after each other because I wiped the first waves so fast. Then I can get problems. I also played with a Holosmith after I got a bit tired of my ranger. And it was a complete new game feeling. It felt so smooth, I could just kill dozens of mobs with 3 skills within 3-4 seconds. I had tons of CC, stability, quickness, might, blocks and tons and tons of instant dmg. I was at the point that I really wanted to switch my main to Holosmith, so I took him to the DPS Golem. And yeah, it dealt only like 60-70% of the dmg. This doesn't mean that Soulbeast is better than Holosmith, it just means that my Soulbeast deals more dmg on that golem during 5 minutes. In the open world it's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Adenin.5973 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > > > > > > > I get it. > > > > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > > > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > > > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > > > > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > > > > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > > > > > > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > > > > > > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > > > > > > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > > > > > > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. > > > > > > So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only high level niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. > > > > > > What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. > > > > > > And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. > > > We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. > > > > Except they don't. Condi does extremely well even against _trash mobs while leveling_, because even a few seconds is usually enough to give condi the advantage. If there's any solution warranted here whatsoever, which I'm not convinced there is, it's to have more high-armored mobs. > > > > Have you leveled with a condi spec vs a direct spec lately? > > Yes, I leveled with a condi spec, it was easier true. But I also recently leveled with a mount and one hitted everything so we shouldn't jump to conclusions. > > I ususally play condition Soulbeast and I use pets that can spam AoE conditions pretty well. I have no problems against several enemies in PoF. Game feels relatively smooth, except when several waves of enemies spawn close to after each other because I wiped the first waves so fast. Then I can get problems. > I also played with a Holosmith after I got a bit tired of my ranger. And it was a complete new game feeling. It felt so smooth, I could just kill dozens of mobs with 3 skills within 3-4 seconds. I had tons of CC, stability, quickness, might, blocks and tons and tons of instant dmg. > > I was at the point that I really wanted to switch my main to Holosmith, so I took him to the DPS Golem. And yeah, it dealt only like 60-70% of the dmg. This doesn't mean that Soulbeast is better than Holosmith, it just means that my Soulbeast deals more dmg on that golem during 5 minutes. In the open world it's another story. Do you happen to know which golem it was and what its armor rating was? It's also worth noting that Holosmith is an outlier as power specs go. If the golem had very high toughness, though, it would appropriate for your Holo build to be outdone by your Soulbeast build. I know there are several and I think they have different armor ratings, though I could be wrong. I need to do a few more tests on there myself. The average golem has a middling armor rating, so I would expect condi damage to deal around 10-15% more after DPS stabilizes for a few seconds. 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Adenin.5973 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. > > > > > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > > > > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > > > > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > > > > > > > > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > > > > > > > > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > > > > > > > > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. > > > > > > > > So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only high level niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. > > > > > > > > What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. > > > > > > > > And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. > > > > We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. > > > > > > Except they don't. Condi does extremely well even against _trash mobs while leveling_, because even a few seconds is usually enough to give condi the advantage. If there's any solution warranted here whatsoever, which I'm not convinced there is, it's to have more high-armored mobs. > > > > > > Have you leveled with a condi spec vs a direct spec lately? > > > > Yes, I leveled with a condi spec, it was easier true. But I also recently leveled with a mount and one hitted everything so we shouldn't jump to conclusions. > > > > I ususally play condition Soulbeast and I use pets that can spam AoE conditions pretty well. I have no problems against several enemies in PoF. Game feels relatively smooth, except when several waves of enemies spawn close to after each other because I wiped the first waves so fast. Then I can get problems. > > I also played with a Holosmith after I got a bit tired of my ranger. And it was a complete new game feeling. It felt so smooth, I could just kill dozens of mobs with 3 skills within 3-4 seconds. I had tons of CC, stability, quickness, might, blocks and tons and tons of instant dmg. > > > > I was at the point that I really wanted to switch my main to Holosmith, so I took him to the DPS Golem. And yeah, it dealt only like 60-70% of the dmg. This doesn't mean that Soulbeast is better than Holosmith, it just means that my Soulbeast deals more dmg on that golem during 5 minutes. In the open world it's another story. > > Do you happen to know which golem it was and what its armor rating was? It's also worth noting that Holosmith is an outlier as power specs go. If the golem had very high toughness, though, it would appropriate for your Holo build to be outdone by your Soulbeast build. I know there are several and I think they have different armor ratings, though I could be wrong. > > I need to do a few more tests on there myself. I don't know that. I did tests on the 1million and the 4 million hp one. Also I usually test these things without any pre-buffs and I did the tests with my open world builds which would mean that my Soulbeast has more potential for dmg optimization. I didn't test the Holosmith because I wanted to go into raids with it, I was just curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Adenin.5973 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @saerni.2584 said: > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf abundant cleanse, increase condi durations, decrease application rates. Fights should be power favored (similar gear) under 25 seconds. At that point they should be even. At 35+ the condition damage should begin to overwhelm the power damage significantly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf resistance to 33% reduction on incoming condition duration and 33% reduction in condition based damage. No immunity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Disagree. First, those time stamps are completely arbitrary and will affect PvE and PvP very differently. Second, Power and condition damage will never be balanced as long as fight duration is the main metric used to balance them (it's apparently Anet's design paradigm, but it's wrong-headed). It can be secondary, but the primary should be the armor of the target, since the main purpose of condition damage is to bypass armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ****How it actually should work:**** > > > > > > > > > > **low armor** - burst has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > > > > > > > > > **medium armor** - burst has advantage at first, but it swings in favor of condi past a certain point (probably about 5-10 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > **high armor** - condi has advantage from the getgo and never loses it (time is inconsequential, since it shouldn't be possible to take down a high-armor mob/player in under 5 seconds) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with the above _right now_ is that condi cleanse, resistance, and immunity have become too prolific (and too mandatory) as a result of condition damage being overpowered for too long. All of this also makes toughness undervalued. Sources of these need to be scaled back so that condi damage can be re-tuned to the above paradigm, which would _also_ be an indirect and badly needed buff for Toughness and would bring a lot of build flexibility back into the game as people won't be so dependent on running anti-condi crap in their kits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how people cry everytime they have to "waste" skill slots for that "crap condi cleanse". I don't know if you ever noticed that, but you waste tons of skills already to midigate power dmg. Skills that grant protection, blocks, invulnerability, reflects, whatever. But you only complain about "condi cleanse crap" Why? Because in your opinion power dmg is the only "real" dmg worth protecting against? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a Role Playing Game. You have to choose one single specific role and then play this role. And since we're in an Massively Multiplayer Online Game you can invite other people into your party if you need another role. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no role/class/spec in this game that has tons of health and tons of thoughness, perma evade and blocks, that can spam resistance and cleanse and transfer conditions, that can dish out tons of power dmg, while stacking up multiple conditions, heal its allies and itself while keeping control of the enemies around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you specialize in having good defense against power dmg ( toughness, blocks, endurance reg, invulnerability, protection) you have to make sacrifices, same for conditions (resistance, cleanse, transfers, vitality). And btw. Most boons/skills that immensely help against power builds help at least a good bit against condition builds as well because conditions need to be applied first, whereas "condi crap"-defence is mostly only working against conditions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to not even be comprehending what this discussion is about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get it. > > > > > > > You complain about condi dmg being too strong (And I told you how it is balanced) > > > > > > > You complain about needing to waste skills to protect against conditions (And I told you that you need that for power dmg too) > > > > > > > You complain about the core design intend behind condition and power dmg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you claim the only solution would be to make the two dmg types distinct through armor type and how armor affects them. Which is in no way better than make the distinction through a ramp up time. Because you still have parts of the game where your dmg type is inferior to the other. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You on the other hand have never even tried to come up with any argument against mine, you simply tell me it's all wrong and that I just don't get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The argument was my original post. You're the one disagreeing with me with insufficient reasoning. Balancing with the expectation that condition damage should always outperform direct damage after a certain period of time is silly. If you look at damage benchmarks, you'll see that condition damage is almost universally superior in PvE. The reason why is because Anet have it in their heads that condition damage is "balanced" if it's weaker for the first few seconds and stronger after ramp up, but PvE univerally consists of longer fights. Moreover, this is in complete contradiction to how conditions were designed - which was as a tool to get around high passive defense. > > > > > > > > > > > > They were not designed like DoTs in other games. They were designed with relatively short durations (in most cases) that were stackable with the benefit of bypassing the target's armor, and it was usually intended to hybridize with direct damage rather than replacing it. Condi cleanse & immunity proliferated throughout the game more recently as a way to give players the ability to deal with the over-the-top damage they were receiving from conditions. But this is cludgy, because players have to build their kits around it, removing all sorts of customization options. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't make any sense. If the sole important balancer is time in a fight, there will never be balance. Condition will always over-perform in PvE, or Direct damage will always over-perform in PvP. The only sensible solution is to narrow the damage gap between direct and condition damage, allow condition damage to "burst" to an extent with short durations, and balance the two damage types around armor rating, with low armor always favoring direct damage - even over time, and high armor always favoring condition damage. This _is a better solution_ than ramp-up time, because it's more varied within and between gameplay modes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arguing otherwise just makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You do need to realize something. The majority of PvE content consists of trash mobs and bursting down your enemies. The majority of PvE is not raids, not high lvl fractals. > > > > > > > > > > So in most of the PvE content of this game power builds have an advantage. It's only high level niche content that has the problem that the meta builds for it consist out of condition builds, because those builds favour longer fights. > > > > > > > > > > What's the answer to that? Simply let raid bosses and bosses in higher fractals use condi cleanse every now and then. It's the easiest way of fixing that problem, it can also be balanced very easily. > > > > > > > > > > And to your solution. This would require Anet to rework every single NPC healthpool and armor type, every event, dungeon, raid, trash mob, story mission, every armor and weapon stat, every single skill in the game, most of the spec traits. And then we would still not know if it would really work or if it would be a balancing nightmare. > > > > > We both know that this complete rework won't happen in the lifespan of this game. > > > > > > > > Except they don't. Condi does extremely well even against _trash mobs while leveling_, because even a few seconds is usually enough to give condi the advantage. If there's any solution warranted here whatsoever, which I'm not convinced there is, it's to have more high-armored mobs. > > > > > > > > Have you leveled with a condi spec vs a direct spec lately? > > > > > > Yes, I leveled with a condi spec, it was easier true. But I also recently leveled with a mount and one hitted everything so we shouldn't jump to conclusions. > > > > > > I ususally play condition Soulbeast and I use pets that can spam AoE conditions pretty well. I have no problems against several enemies in PoF. Game feels relatively smooth, except when several waves of enemies spawn close to after each other because I wiped the first waves so fast. Then I can get problems. > > > I also played with a Holosmith after I got a bit tired of my ranger. And it was a complete new game feeling. It felt so smooth, I could just kill dozens of mobs with 3 skills within 3-4 seconds. I had tons of CC, stability, quickness, might, blocks and tons and tons of instant dmg. > > > > > > I was at the point that I really wanted to switch my main to Holosmith, so I took him to the DPS Golem. And yeah, it dealt only like 60-70% of the dmg. This doesn't mean that Soulbeast is better than Holosmith, it just means that my Soulbeast deals more dmg on that golem during 5 minutes. In the open world it's another story. > > > > Do you happen to know which golem it was and what its armor rating was? It's also worth noting that Holosmith is an outlier as power specs go. If the golem had very high toughness, though, it would appropriate for your Holo build to be outdone by your Soulbeast build. I know there are several and I think they have different armor ratings, though I could be wrong. > > > > I need to do a few more tests on there myself. > > I don't know that. I did tests on the 1million and the 4 million hp one. > > Also I usually test these things without any pre-buffs and I did the tests with my open world builds which would mean that my Soulbeast has more potential for dmg optimization. > > I didn't test the Holosmith because I wanted to go into raids with it, I just was curious I'm fairly confident in the observations and conclusions from my original post. You can find examples of undertuned condition builds or well tuned direct builds, but, in general, condition damage builds are overtuned simply because Anet has not properly balanced around target armor and, as a result, immunity and cleanse have become too common. Again, direct damage builds _should_ outperform condition builds against low armor rating no matter how much ramp up time there is. Your example helps to illustrate how condition damage is really kind of out of control, and I can only assume it's because Anet is balancing it in a myopic fashion (kind of an MO of theirs). I'm going to test my berseker shiro against my condition mallyx build on my Rev later, and I'll do it with neither Glint nor Kalla to keep things kind of baselined. I'll post the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Assuming the same health, a condi class/burst (whatever) should be able to kill a high-armour target in the same timespan as a power class/burst (whatever) kills a low-armour class. This isn't even going into buffs/debuffs, immunities, rotations, gear etc (it's much easier to deck a char out in zerker gear than it is vipers). If a class needs to materially invest and strategise their skills to maximise their damage then it doesn't matter if that damage is from conditions or power. People are just stuck in the old-style of preferring power damage- it's somehow more acceptable to die to something physically hitting you than a stack of bleeds/burn/torment. Perhaps it's because i play necro and thief that i am used to not having any blocks or immunities (bar bandits' defense and DD max 7 dodges with signet and heal skill) that i don't have any sympathy for these ppl crying to nerf condi damage output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I think that the path of least work is remove resistance, but make condis subject to all damage reduction mechanics like power (toughness, protection, any and all damage reduction class specific skills). Also, make condis deal no damage to distorted targets. I generally, think that HP pools are due for a buff. People may not remember, but we went through two stages of damage power creep, before HoT with becoming able to equip 3 full trait lines. Then with HoT, with the introduction of elites. Slightly larger health pools will reduce condi nuking impact. I think they should increase HP pools for larges pools by 2K, medium pools by 2.5K and small pools by 3K. This will require some work on warrior and rev, but most other classes do not have access to resistance anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki.6073 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Frostwolve.2916 said: > > > @OriOri.8724 said: > > > @Frostwolve.2916 said: > > > My view of the whole thing is, damage has gone up consistently since hot with little to no increase in negating effects. I feel like vitality for every class needs to be increased for wvw in particular. I would like to see10k health added to each class upon entering wvw. > > > > > > You cannot keep increasing the damage without increasing the things that negate the damage particularly vitality cause toughness is useless against conditions. Also power hasn't seen as much of a rise in damage as conditions. > > > > The substantially healthier solution is to lower damage output instead of needlessly buffing everyone more. > > I feel like it would be a step backwards to nerf stuff. I have always had the mindset of Bringing stats up to balance instead of nerfing them down to lowest common denominator. It seems more fun that way. > The constant buffing is why things "aren't so fun". Implementing a counter, that then needs a counter, that then needs a counter, that then needs a counter, it never ends. There should be a power level the developers set, and stick to that, power creep is very bad especially due to games like GW2 not increasing defensive stats when damage is massively increased, and increasing defense to match the increased offense ends up being the same as nerfing offense anyways, the only thing that changes is every number is higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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