IndigoSundown.5419 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > No, the issue is the condition damage. The reason this is obvious is because the economy of stats that allows for ultra-high condition damage does not allow for the equivalent with direct damage builds. If condition damage was not over-tuned, you would expect Grieving to be about as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as Viper's is for hybrid builds that favor condi damage, but that just isn't the case. Any time you have equivalent Condition Damage and Power on a stat set, condition builds will benefit more than direct damage builds due to the tuning of Condition damage. That's the problem. > > > > Dire is the equivalent for Soldiers, and Dire wins. Rabid is the equivalent for Knights, and Rabid wins. On the flip side, Rampager was the equivalent for Berserker, bur Berserker wins. To some extent, that was due to the fact that Rampager was not a true equivalent, as Condition Damage was a secondary stat and the Power/Precision id offered was insufficient to make up for that. > > > > With HoT, the devs introduced new stat sets, which are in most cases better than the earlier options for a given setup and purpose. The exception is Berserker > Marauder. They also provided more boon duration and more condition duration. The addition of Expertise makes up a significant part of why condition damage builds dominate the perfect-conditions-buffs-and-rotations DPS tests. > > > > That said, defining the problem as being solely due to the Condition Damage stat is not cut and dried. Low-end condition builds (the ones an efficiency player would disdain, and only an immersion player might play) are much closer to or in some cases even worse than a low-end power build. Try, for example, a pistol engineer without Flamethrower for Incendiary Ammo. Why is this the case? Because the lower-performing specs cannot apply as many stacks of the damaging conditions they can access, and/or they do not have as many different damaging conditions. > > > > The problem with an overall tune-down for the Condition Damage stat is that it would affect both the low performing and the high performing builds. That's why I favor changes by adjusting the number of possible stacks and variety of damaging conditions available. Why do I speak for the immersion player? Well, being a "tweener" myself, I feel some of their pain when changes are made to rein in high-performing builds which also reduce their enjoyment as a side effect. Also, nobody else seems to be speaking for that play-style. > > When I say "nerf condi", I mean it in a nuanced way. Obviously you can find condition weapons and skills that are not overtuned and do not need a nerf - it just isn't the norm at this point, and I think that's mostly due to condi damage scaling. Thief Shortbow is, IMO, and underpowered weapon even though it's condition-focused. However, the solution is not to individually rebalance every single weapon first, it's to bring condi baseline down and then adjust the weapons and skills that need additional tweaks. > > But, to be fair to your argument - what you're suggesting is basically just an alternate method of dealing with the same problem in the same way, so I'm not trying to be pedantic. My main concern is the fixation on the idea that condition damage should always outdo direct damage given a certain amount of time. I will always think that's a faulty, indefensible balance paradigm. Condition damage should be balanced mostly around short durations and quick stacking, with target armor being the main controller for if and when it overtakes physical damage. There's really only one way to do that - and that's to keep the structure of condition application the same, but reduce the damage scaling. Outliers that are underpowered or still overpowered can then be addressed through balance iteration. If I had any confidence that ANet would buff lower-performing options, I'd agree. However, their history suggests that their view of under- and over-performing are not the same as mine, and perhaps yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > To be perfectly honest, i think a lot of the problem with condi truthfully stems from the existence of Vipers, Destroyers, Sinister, and Rampager stat sets... They allow condi builds to get high power damage alongside high condi damage. Other than Celestial, any statset that gives Power should never give Condi damage, and any statset that does Condi damage should never give Power. There isn't a single pure Condi DPS stat set that doesn't give Power, in fact they all give Power & Precision even... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This means that every Condi build either A ) has high direct damage as well or B ) has high defensive or support stats. Usually high Power since it allows them to do heavy direct damage alongside high Condition damage. It creates an imbalance that favors Condi builds. Power builds just can't compete, even though Condi weapons generally have lower base direct damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the ANet devs gave an example before to explain why Conditions are as strong as they are... but they didn't really paint an accurate picture of what we actually have. Their example: > > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage over 10 seconds and an attack that does 1000 damage instantly, you will always take the instant damage. > > > > > > > However, in GW2 what we actually have looks more like this: > > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage instantly and an attack that does 500 instantly plus 1000 damage over 3 seconds, you will always take the later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stat sets that gave both Condi damage and Power didn't exist then the choice to build Condi would result in minimal direct damage in exchange for high condition damage, allowing both to actually be balanced. Instead we have pure power and hybrid power/condi DPS stat sets... and the hybrid sets give just as much direct damage as the pure power sets. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've got some numbers about vipers gear vs berserkers gear (On a Ranger). I've used full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs. > > > > > > I then looked at the tooltip dmg of Axe MH, since Anet claims that it's a hybrid weapon and I looked at one skill from Greatsword. > > > > > > > > > > > > With full Vipers gear we get: > > > > > > Power: 2173, Crit-Chance: 34% ,Crit dmg: 150% > > > > > > Condition dmg: 1173, Condition duration: 42% > > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1013 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg > > > > > > Maul dmg: 1559 > > > > > > > > > > > > With full Berserkers gear we get: > > > > > > Power: 2381, Crit-Chance: 50% ,Crit dmg: 214% > > > > > > Condition dmg: 0, Condition duration: 0% > > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1110 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg > > > > > > Maul dmg: 1710 > > > > > > > > > > > > **Which means we get with vipers gear on the different skills, compared to berserkers gear following numbers:** > > > > > > Wintersbite: 9% less direct dmg, 596% more bleeding dmg, total of 1543 dmg (207%) more than with berserkers > > > > > > Maul: 9% less direct dmg, total of 151 dmg (9%) less than with berserkers > > > > > > > > > > > > Seeing that, I can't argue that vipers gear seems somewhat overpowered compared with berserkers gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > _Edit: What we of course don't see here is the effect of the increased crit chance and the increased critical damage, which should help berserkers quite a bit._ > > > > > > > > > > > > Used tool: > > > > > > http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/ > > > > > > > > > > A quick comparison of average crit values using your numbers. (Damage x crit mult) / crit chance > > > > > This gives an average crit value per hit, so... > > > > > > > > > > Viper > > > > > Wintersbite: +517 damage > > > > > Maul: +795 damage > > > > > > > > > > Berserker > > > > > Wintersbite: +1188 damage > > > > > Maul: +1830 damage > > > > > > > > > > This puts total numbers up at: > > > > > Wintersbite: 1530 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg (Viper) vs 2298 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg (Berserker) > > > > > Maul: 2354 (Viper) vs 3540 (Berserker) > > > > > > > > > > Wintersbite +33% damage Viper's > > > > > Maul +50% damage Berserker > > > > > > > > > > Overall, with crit factored in they even out, especially when you factor in armor. Dealing slightly less direct damage in exchange for nearly 6x condition damage, is ultimately the preferable option. Especially when you consider the fact that you can stack the condition damage, turning the slight damage bonus of a power build per hit into nothing. Not to mention a condi build can get extra condition stacks from traits and runes with crits. > > > > > > > > > > The formulas and damage of Condi is actually quite well balanced, it's only thrown off balance by the fact that hybrid stat sets allow for both to reach high levels. Honestly Rampager's is the only hybrid pure DPS set that is remotely balanced since both Power and Condi are it's minor stats, and it has no Ferocity. The Condi equivalent to Berserker should give Condi, Expertise, Precision. Lower initial damage, but easier to stack due to longer durations allowing it to eventually surpass power. If they remove the hybrid sets and replace them with proper condi sets, we'd actually see a more balanced playing field between the two. > > > > > > > > Yes and no. The formulas and damage of condi are not well balanced at all, which his example plainly demonstrates. What you are describing is a product of the phenomenon that condition damage alone gives condition builds what it takes power, precision, and ferocity combined to give to direct damage builds. So, when you put power, precision, and expertise together with the major of condition damage, you end up with a massively over-tuned offense. Direct damage builds have no comparable option. > > > > > > > > Dire may produce damage numbers more in line with the berserker set, but then you have a lot of extra defense. If anything, direct damage builds should get free defensive stats since they require you to stay engaged with your target. > > > > > > > > This example just exposes how horrendously broken condition damage actually is in the game. > > > > > > The numbers presented are from Berserker (Power, Precision, Ferocity) and Viper (Power, Condi, Precision, Expertise) Both give power. This is a fact of all pure damage Condi stat sets. If you look at the damage values of a condi set that lacks power, you'll find the damage values are actually noticeably lower for condi than power. When factoring in stacking conditions, the lower base damage of conditions would be balanced. > > > > > > If someone would care to post the tooltip values of Ranger MH Axe with full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs utilizing a defensive Condi stat set, (Trailblazer or Rabid would be good examples). Then we can see exactly what sort of damage we would be seeing from Condi without hybrid sets that provide too much strength to both. > > > > > > Also, the new Grieving set will almost certainly provide even more overall damage for Condi builds by sacrificing Expertise for Ferocity. Enough that the small initial edge I outlined for Power builds should be completely non-existent. Berserker vs Grieving should be almost 100% advantage Grieving even with crits. Berserker would still be stronger for pure power attacks, but the margin would be so small even with crits that it's negligible. > > > > > > The issue isn't condition damage, the issue is the stat sets. They didn't consider the impact of hybrid sets enough and gave us multiple sets that provide heavy Power + Condi damage. If both stats are on the same set, both stats absolutely should be minors, never majors when both are present. This is for the same reason that there are no stat sets with Ferocity as a major. Can you imagine how overpowered Power builds would be with a 4 stat set giving Major Power + Ferocity with Minor Precision + Whatever? There would be no competition. This is exactly what we are seeing from Grieving & Vipers both giving Major Power + Condi with Minor Precision + Ferocity/Expertise. > > > > No, the issue is the condition damage. The reason this is obvious is because the economy of stats that allows for ultra-high condition damage does not allow for the equivalent with direct damage builds. If condition damage was not over-tuned, you would expect Grieving to be about as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as Viper's is for hybrid builds that favor condi damage, but that just isn't the case. Any time you have equivalent Condition Damage and Power on a stat set, condition builds will benefit more than direct damage builds due to the tuning of Condition damage. That's the problem. > > > > It's asinine to place the blame on the attribute combos - the attribute combos are rubber-banded and have the same total points. If one attribute combo is significantly stronger than another, there's an imbalance in the attributes themselves. Anet shouldn't have to not release some combinations of attributes to work around the fact that one of their attributes is overpowered. > > > > I disagree that major power + ferocity, minor precision + whatever would be more OP than viper's is for condition builds, and have no clue why you'd make that argument. Power, precision, and ferocity are the only stats tied to direct damage, so nothing will ever be better than Berserker's for direct damage. Any hybridization of those three stats with a four-stat combo will only dilute direct damage builds, not help them. See Marauder's for an example. > > You don't seem to be understanding the issue at all. Grieving would **NOT** be as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as it is for those that favor condition damage, and it's completely illogical to think that it would. The vast majority of Condi attacks have a direct damage component built into them, as a result they benefit from **BOTH** Power and Condition Damage. Direct damage attacks on the other hand don't benefit from Condi damage. You could argue that conditions don't benefit from Ferocity, but the fact remains that the attacks still do. Drop power from Condi stat sets and you'll see a huge dip in condi build damage. > > Conditions are **SUPPOSED** to do more damage in the long run than direct damage, but only after you stack them up. But because the stats sets allow condi builds to get their direct damage almost as high as pure direct damage power builds along with their condition damage, you end up with condi builds that do just as much damage as direct damage builds before stacking up their conditions. By making it so you either have Condition Damage or Power on your gear, (or if both, both are minor stats) you cause condi to have a lower starting point and actually have to build up stacks to reach direct damage in strength, but can eventually pass direct damage if they build up their conditions enough. Dire and Rabid should be inferior to Berserker's for DPS, with Sinister and Viper being more equivalent to Berskerker's output. That's what we would expect if condition damage was properly balanced. But I strongly suspect that isn't the reality - I'd love to see if anyone has any math on it. If we look across different builds in the game and conclude that Dire/Rabid is comparable to Beserker in DPS, but that Viper and Sinister outperform Bersker, that's a very, very clear indication that the problem is the tuning on condition damage and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 There are many issues, none of which has a solution. Players should have to choose to be tanky and deal almost no dps or be really high dps with no survivability. While there are a few instances where the latter is true, there are tons of class builds that have ridiculous dps and survivability. On top of that, the tanky stat sets (dire, trailblazer) offer just as much dps (or more) for most classes as the high dps stat sets (i.e berserker). At this point, they would have to add a dps modifier to certain trait lines to offset what they have done. Warrior, for just one example. Taking the defense trait line, reduces your dps by a %. Some classes can build a full tank that still has higher dps than some other classes best dps build. This really shouldn't be the case. The current push to conditions has just made this more obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Ubi.4136 said: > There are many issues, none of which has a solution. Players should have to choose to be tanky and deal almost no dps or be really high dps with no survivability. > While there are a few instances where the latter is true, there are tons of class builds that have ridiculous dps and survivability. On top of that, the tanky stat sets (dire, trailblazer) offer just as much dps (or more) for most classes as the high dps stat sets (i.e berserker). > > At this point, they would have to add a dps modifier to certain trait lines to offset what they have done. Warrior, for just one example. Taking the defense trait line, reduces your dps by a %. Some classes can build a full tank that still has higher dps than some other classes best dps build. This really shouldn't be the case. The current push to conditions has just made this more obvious. My first point in this thread is that the over-tuning of conditions has had all kinds of terrible cascading effects on the game, one of which being what you pointed out - when you have high toughness, high health, AND a lot of condi clear/immunity because conditions are OP - that's going to make your defense in PvP over the top. That's the whole reason why conditions should exist. Immunity and cleansing should not be nearly as prevalent as they are, and condi should be the way you take down highly armored targets. That's why it also needs to not be better than power against low glassy targets. It's a total mess, and fixing it actually shouldn't be that damn difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen.1347 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said: > > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > > To be perfectly honest, i think a lot of the problem with condi truthfully stems from the existence of Vipers, Destroyers, Sinister, and Rampager stat sets... They allow condi builds to get high power damage alongside high condi damage. Other than Celestial, any statset that gives Power should never give Condi damage, and any statset that does Condi damage should never give Power. There isn't a single pure Condi DPS stat set that doesn't give Power, in fact they all give Power & Precision even... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This means that every Condi build either A ) has high direct damage as well or B ) has high defensive or support stats. Usually high Power since it allows them to do heavy direct damage alongside high Condition damage. It creates an imbalance that favors Condi builds. Power builds just can't compete, even though Condi weapons generally have lower base direct damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the ANet devs gave an example before to explain why Conditions are as strong as they are... but they didn't really paint an accurate picture of what we actually have. Their example: > > > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage over 10 seconds and an attack that does 1000 damage instantly, you will always take the instant damage. > > > > > > > > However, in GW2 what we actually have looks more like this: > > > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage instantly and an attack that does 500 instantly plus 1000 damage over 3 seconds, you will always take the later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stat sets that gave both Condi damage and Power didn't exist then the choice to build Condi would result in minimal direct damage in exchange for high condition damage, allowing both to actually be balanced. Instead we have pure power and hybrid power/condi DPS stat sets... and the hybrid sets give just as much direct damage as the pure power sets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've got some numbers about vipers gear vs berserkers gear (On a Ranger). I've used full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs. > > > > > > > I then looked at the tooltip dmg of Axe MH, since Anet claims that it's a hybrid weapon and I looked at one skill from Greatsword. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With full Vipers gear we get: > > > > > > > Power: 2173, Crit-Chance: 34% ,Crit dmg: 150% > > > > > > > Condition dmg: 1173, Condition duration: 42% > > > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1013 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg > > > > > > > Maul dmg: 1559 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With full Berserkers gear we get: > > > > > > > Power: 2381, Crit-Chance: 50% ,Crit dmg: 214% > > > > > > > Condition dmg: 0, Condition duration: 0% > > > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1110 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg > > > > > > > Maul dmg: 1710 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Which means we get with vipers gear on the different skills, compared to berserkers gear following numbers:** > > > > > > > Wintersbite: 9% less direct dmg, 596% more bleeding dmg, total of 1543 dmg (207%) more than with berserkers > > > > > > > Maul: 9% less direct dmg, total of 151 dmg (9%) less than with berserkers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seeing that, I can't argue that vipers gear seems somewhat overpowered compared with berserkers gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Edit: What we of course don't see here is the effect of the increased crit chance and the increased critical damage, which should help berserkers quite a bit._ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Used tool: > > > > > > > http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/ > > > > > > > > > > > > A quick comparison of average crit values using your numbers. (Damage x crit mult) / crit chance > > > > > > This gives an average crit value per hit, so... > > > > > > > > > > > > Viper > > > > > > Wintersbite: +517 damage > > > > > > Maul: +795 damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Berserker > > > > > > Wintersbite: +1188 damage > > > > > > Maul: +1830 damage > > > > > > > > > > > > This puts total numbers up at: > > > > > > Wintersbite: 1530 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg (Viper) vs 2298 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg (Berserker) > > > > > > Maul: 2354 (Viper) vs 3540 (Berserker) > > > > > > > > > > > > Wintersbite +33% damage Viper's > > > > > > Maul +50% damage Berserker > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall, with crit factored in they even out, especially when you factor in armor. Dealing slightly less direct damage in exchange for nearly 6x condition damage, is ultimately the preferable option. Especially when you consider the fact that you can stack the condition damage, turning the slight damage bonus of a power build per hit into nothing. Not to mention a condi build can get extra condition stacks from traits and runes with crits. > > > > > > > > > > > > The formulas and damage of Condi is actually quite well balanced, it's only thrown off balance by the fact that hybrid stat sets allow for both to reach high levels. Honestly Rampager's is the only hybrid pure DPS set that is remotely balanced since both Power and Condi are it's minor stats, and it has no Ferocity. The Condi equivalent to Berserker should give Condi, Expertise, Precision. Lower initial damage, but easier to stack due to longer durations allowing it to eventually surpass power. If they remove the hybrid sets and replace them with proper condi sets, we'd actually see a more balanced playing field between the two. > > > > > > > > > > Yes and no. The formulas and damage of condi are not well balanced at all, which his example plainly demonstrates. What you are describing is a product of the phenomenon that condition damage alone gives condition builds what it takes power, precision, and ferocity combined to give to direct damage builds. So, when you put power, precision, and expertise together with the major of condition damage, you end up with a massively over-tuned offense. Direct damage builds have no comparable option. > > > > > > > > > > Dire may produce damage numbers more in line with the berserker set, but then you have a lot of extra defense. If anything, direct damage builds should get free defensive stats since they require you to stay engaged with your target. > > > > > > > > > > This example just exposes how horrendously broken condition damage actually is in the game. > > > > > > > > The numbers presented are from Berserker (Power, Precision, Ferocity) and Viper (Power, Condi, Precision, Expertise) Both give power. This is a fact of all pure damage Condi stat sets. If you look at the damage values of a condi set that lacks power, you'll find the damage values are actually noticeably lower for condi than power. When factoring in stacking conditions, the lower base damage of conditions would be balanced. > > > > > > > > If someone would care to post the tooltip values of Ranger MH Axe with full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs utilizing a defensive Condi stat set, (Trailblazer or Rabid would be good examples). Then we can see exactly what sort of damage we would be seeing from Condi without hybrid sets that provide too much strength to both. > > > > > > > > Also, the new Grieving set will almost certainly provide even more overall damage for Condi builds by sacrificing Expertise for Ferocity. Enough that the small initial edge I outlined for Power builds should be completely non-existent. Berserker vs Grieving should be almost 100% advantage Grieving even with crits. Berserker would still be stronger for pure power attacks, but the margin would be so small even with crits that it's negligible. > > > > > > > > The issue isn't condition damage, the issue is the stat sets. They didn't consider the impact of hybrid sets enough and gave us multiple sets that provide heavy Power + Condi damage. If both stats are on the same set, both stats absolutely should be minors, never majors when both are present. This is for the same reason that there are no stat sets with Ferocity as a major. Can you imagine how overpowered Power builds would be with a 4 stat set giving Major Power + Ferocity with Minor Precision + Whatever? There would be no competition. This is exactly what we are seeing from Grieving & Vipers both giving Major Power + Condi with Minor Precision + Ferocity/Expertise. > > > > > > No, the issue is the condition damage. The reason this is obvious is because the economy of stats that allows for ultra-high condition damage does not allow for the equivalent with direct damage builds. If condition damage was not over-tuned, you would expect Grieving to be about as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as Viper's is for hybrid builds that favor condi damage, but that just isn't the case. Any time you have equivalent Condition Damage and Power on a stat set, condition builds will benefit more than direct damage builds due to the tuning of Condition damage. That's the problem. > > > > > > It's asinine to place the blame on the attribute combos - the attribute combos are rubber-banded and have the same total points. If one attribute combo is significantly stronger than another, there's an imbalance in the attributes themselves. Anet shouldn't have to not release some combinations of attributes to work around the fact that one of their attributes is overpowered. > > > > > > I disagree that major power + ferocity, minor precision + whatever would be more OP than viper's is for condition builds, and have no clue why you'd make that argument. Power, precision, and ferocity are the only stats tied to direct damage, so nothing will ever be better than Berserker's for direct damage. Any hybridization of those three stats with a four-stat combo will only dilute direct damage builds, not help them. See Marauder's for an example. > > > > You don't seem to be understanding the issue at all. Grieving would **NOT** be as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as it is for those that favor condition damage, and it's completely illogical to think that it would. The vast majority of Condi attacks have a direct damage component built into them, as a result they benefit from **BOTH** Power and Condition Damage. Direct damage attacks on the other hand don't benefit from Condi damage. You could argue that conditions don't benefit from Ferocity, but the fact remains that the attacks still do. Drop power from Condi stat sets and you'll see a huge dip in condi build damage. > > > > Conditions are **SUPPOSED** to do more damage in the long run than direct damage, but only after you stack them up. But because the stats sets allow condi builds to get their direct damage almost as high as pure direct damage power builds along with their condition damage, you end up with condi builds that do just as much damage as direct damage builds before stacking up their conditions. By making it so you either have Condition Damage or Power on your gear, (or if both, both are minor stats) you cause condi to have a lower starting point and actually have to build up stacks to reach direct damage in strength, but can eventually pass direct damage if they build up their conditions enough. > > Dire and Rabid should be inferior to Berserker's for DPS, with Sinister and Viper being more equivalent to Berskerker's output. That's what we would expect if condition damage was properly balanced. But I strongly suspect that isn't the reality - I'd love to see if anyone has any math on it. > > If we look across different builds in the game and conclude that Dire/Rabid is comparable to Beserker in DPS, but that Viper and Sinister outperform Bersker, that's a very, very clear indication that the problem is the tuning on condition damage and nothing else. How about providing numbers instead of claims without anything to back it up? I did some tests with core ranger: DPS of shortbow autoattack (hybrid damage attack) in full exotic gear, no runes and sigils, no food, no buffs, no traits, 100% flanking uptime. Soldier: 772 dps Dire: 791 dps So even with 100% flanking uptime, which isn't always realistic in actual combat, both gearsets provide pretty similar dps for rangers shortbow, a weapon that is used in condibuilds, but also has somewhat ok'ish dircet dmg modifier (i used autoattack only to minimise the influence of human error). If i would use a more power oriented weapon instead, soldier dps would obviously pull way ahead. For a weapon with very low direct dmg, but better condi application, dire would be better obviously. But it shows, the general statement that dire has a lot better dps than soldier is not true. Exotic berserker gear would provide about 38% crit chance and 54% crit dmg, which would be a huge dps increase (>50%) over soldier and therefore a lot more dmg than dire too. I also did tests with same gear (full exotic, no rune, sigil or food), but with an actual build, self applied buffs and a (more or less) proper rotation. Soldier (LB + S/A): 4434 dps Dire (SB + A/T): 5155 dps Dire provided about 17% more dps as soldiers. I did no tests with berserker, but it would be about 75% more dps than soldier and therefore also a lot more dps than dire - on a class that is known for terrible power dps ... If i look at various dps benchmarks, the dps difference between condi and power dps is about 5-25%, depending on the class. The difference between viper and dire will be more than 50% most likely, so claiming that dire = berserker dps is pure nonsense, even when taking food, runes and various buffs and different classes into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xegrilt.9426 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I really like the suggestion about balancing both damage type based on Toughness. At least on paper, it potentially could bring true balance for both damage type, tho it require more than some small adjustments that could be too big for the frequency of balancing patch they're pushing. Other approach is to simply bump 'Power' but as pointed out earlier, Viper also use Power, they don't actually lose out that much in 'Power' compared to a pure Power build. I think the problem is Ferocity vs Expertise. Ferocity translate to 1% critical damage per 15 points, and a full Berserker with 175 Ferocity rune will only get u +75% critical damage. That's like 50% improvement from base critical damage, and thats only if u got 100% critical rate and still mitigated by Armor, while Expertise can pump 100% damage improvement for condi. I think they really should bump Ferocity to give 1% critical damage every 5 or 7 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Xegrilt.9426 said: > I really like the suggestion about balancing both damage type based on Toughness. At least on paper, it potentially could bring true balance for both damage type, tho it require more than some small adjustments that could be too big for the frequency of balancing patch they're pushing. > > Other approach is to simply bump 'Power' but as pointed out earlier, Viper also use Power, they don't actually lose out that much in 'Power' compared to a pure Power build. I think the problem is Ferocity vs Expertise. Ferocity translate to 1% critical damage per 15 points, and a full Berserker with 175 Ferocity rune will only get u +75% critical damage. That's like 50% improvement from base critical damage, and thats only if u got 100% critical rate and still mitigated by Armor, while Expertise can pump 100% damage improvement for condi. I think they really should bump Ferocity to give 1% critical damage every 5 or 7 points I don't think buffing power is a good solution simply because damage is already too clutchy in the game, especially after years of offensive power creep with no changes to defense mechanics (other than more immunity/cleansing). If anything, power damage is also overtuned, just not as much as condition damage is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddicus.6128 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > The whole buzz surrounding "condi burst" is a red herring and a silly attempt at rationalizing the problem as something other than what it actually is. Let's just drop this absurdity and call a spade a spade - condition damage is (generally) over-tuned and in need of significant nerfs. Being able to drop a lot of conditions quickly shouldn't be an issue, and wouldn't be if condition damage was properly tuned. > > Condi being over-tuned is quite plainly demonstrated by the fact that it typically **outperforms direct damage even against glass builds and low-armor mobs**. Isn't the entire purpose of condition damage to bypass armor? Why, then, does it do more damage even when the target has low armor? That's completely wrong-headed. You should expect a power build to outperform a condi build against a low armor target _no matter how long the fight lasts_. Condi's advantage is that it circumvents high armor, which power builds should and do struggle with. This is one of the main reasons why Toughness is undervalued in pretty much all game modes. What's the point when it's usually conditions that kill you anyway? > > Two years of condi being OP has also pushed the proliferation of cleansing and resistance mechanics to give players and mobs ways of dealing with it, and the whole combat system has suffered for it. Toughness hardly matters, players are forced to build around condi cleanse/immunity, non-bunkers die way too fast while bunkers are even more annoying than they should be. By nerfing condi damage, we can effectively scale all of this back and restore a modicum of balance and control to the combat system. > > Everyone (including Anet) acts like conditions are the same as generic DoTs from other games, when that isn't how they were designed. They were largely designed with quick stacking and short duration because they need to be balanced in both PvP (short fights) and PvE (long fights), which is why balancing them primarily around fight duration as opposed to armor doesn't make any sense and will never lead to good balance. Again, let armor largely determine which is more effective, that way they both have a competitive place in the meta in both PvP and PvE. > > Here's an example of how it should work, barring any gimmicks or specialized mechanics: > > **low armor** - physical has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > **mid-range armor** - physical has advantage at first, but swings slightly in favor of condition damage probably starting at around the 6 second mark. > **high armor** - condi has the advantage by the 2-3 second mark and maintains it from there. > > And that's not even getting into the attribute dependency imbalances that exist between physical damage and condition damage builds. Then why does almost everybody recommend power builds? I've asked numerous times what builds would be nice for a character, and I'm always careful to say "don't specify berserker's" (because I don't want berserkers). Yet, well over half the respondents suggest berserker's. Even when I specifically asked for tips on how to play my condi-necro, people still said switch to a power build. So, your premise is not based on facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takatsu.9416 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > The problem with buffing Toughness and Vitality is that will impact direct damage more than it impacts condition damage, and that's the opposite of what needs to happen. I think the only real solution is to just go through every class and nerf various sources of condition damage. There are some that are fine - someone mentioned Thief SB above, and that's hardly overpowered as a condition weapon - but more of them are OP than are not. However, I would not be opposed to a buff to base health and would actually make the case that it would benefit PvE as well. > I think a good starting change could be the buff to vitality - that still helps for both all power and condi bursts after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Offair.2563 said: > Make conditions reflectable so condi spammers will think twice like a power build has to. Anet would had more unblockables with tons of condis xD on short CD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigfodr.9576 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > **low armor** - physical has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > **mid-range armor** - physical has advantage at first, but swings slightly in favor of condition damage probably starting at around the 6 second mark. > **high armor** - condi has the advantage by the 2-3 second mark and maintains it from there. Not sure about the 6 sec, and the 2-3 sec marks. But besides that you are lucky. This is ganerally what we have now. No condi build can burst 40-50k dps on a low armor target like power builds can atm. And on high armour targets condi out preform power build fairly fast after the first burst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mygamingid.5816 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Daddicus.6128 said: > Then why does almost everybody recommend power builds? I've asked numerous times what builds would be nice for a character, and I'm always careful to say "don't specify berserker's" (because I don't want berserkers). Yet, well over half the respondents suggest berserker's. Even when I specifically asked for tips on how to play my condi-necro, people still said switch to a power build. It really depends on what mode you're playing in. Condi is great for raids and raid-like fractals. You'll have plenty of time to load up stacks and won't have to worry about condi cleanse. It's supposed to be the most damaging in those conditions, and it is. Power is best when facing lower-health targets and those with condi cleanse, like players (PvP or WvW) or most Open World PvE. Players tend to emphasize condi cleanse to the point that duration is not necessarily desirable, while most Open World targets' health is low enough that kill times are faster with power. Condi burst is a bit too strong now, such that the choice to run condi doesn't have much negative impact and has a great positive impact against high-health targets. I suspect they'll decrease damage and increase duration proportionately to get a little more separation in the roles. Or maybe not. That's a lot of powers to review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @takatsu.9416 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > The problem with buffing Toughness and Vitality is that will impact direct damage more than it impacts condition damage, and that's the opposite of what needs to happen. I think the only real solution is to just go through every class and nerf various sources of condition damage. There are some that are fine - someone mentioned Thief SB above, and that's hardly overpowered as a condition weapon - but more of them are OP than are not. However, I would not be opposed to a buff to base health and would actually make the case that it would benefit PvE as well. > > > > I think a good starting change could be the buff to vitality - that still helps for both all power and condi bursts after all The problem with buffing Vitality is that it is already the more useful of the two defensive attributes, in large part because of how conditions work now. I think the proper solution is granting a moderate increase to base health as opposed to Vitality, and then scaling back both condition damage and access to immunity/cleanse, so that vitality and toughness both get an indirect buff. A lot of people complain about bunkers, but the main reason bunkers are a problem is because of their access to immunity and cleanse, not because of their passive defense or health pools. Making these two changes would reduce the survival time of bunker builds and increase the survival time of non-bunker builds - a win-win for the game overall. Honestly, if I was in charge, I would seriously consider changing Vitality altogether to grant endurance regeneration instead of health. Health % bonuses could still come from sigils and food, as endurance regen does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Sigfodr.9576 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > **low armor** - physical has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts > > **mid-range armor** - physical has advantage at first, but swings slightly in favor of condition damage probably starting at around the 6 second mark. > > **high armor** - condi has the advantage by the 2-3 second mark and maintains it from there. > > Not sure about the 6 sec, and the 2-3 sec marks. But besides that you are lucky. This is ganerally what we have now. No condi build can burst 40-50k dps on a low armor target like power builds can atm. And on high armour targets condi out preform power build fairly fast after the first burst > > No, this isn't correct, because DPS benchmarks are usually done against the target golems, who have about 2600 armor. In player terms, this is a moderate defense - something a warrior would have with about 400 extra toughness. Against this target, we would expect condi DPS to maybe slightly outperform (10% or so) power DPS after about 6-10 seconds. But that's rare - condi builds typically outperform power builds much more significantly than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkened.4076 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 This discussion has derailed somewhat. It really isn't a discussion whether conditions are out of control or not at this point. They are - and Anet and the other people riding the favour of the month need to accept it. Its seen in PVE and WVW [can't talk for SPVP]. The games damage needs tuning, as does its survivability stats. I have already said [and have said for years] that its ridiculous that condition damage [to do its maximum damage] only requires 'condition damage' and 'condition duration' [condition duration not even really needed in WvW], whilst power builds have to balance three stats [and they are mitigated by armor]. The number of condition applications, corrupts and cleans are also out of control. Combat use to feel more like a tug of war where skill mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Darkened.4076 said: > This discussion has derailed somewhat. > It really isn't a discussion whether conditions are out of control or not at this point. They are - and Anet and the other people riding the favour of the month need to accept it. Its seen in PVE and WVW [can't talk for SPVP]. > > The games damage needs tuning, as does its survivability stats. I have already said [and have said for years] that its ridiculous that condition damage [to do its maximum damage] only requires 'condition damage' and 'condition duration' [condition duration not even really needed in WvW], whilst power builds have to balance three stats [and they are mitigated by armor]. The number of condition applications, corrupts and cleans are also out of control. Combat use to feel more like a tug of war where skill mattered. What I really want to see is mass DPS test/comparison against the target golems using Berserker vs Carrion builds. I previously suggested Dire or Rabid, but I think Carrion is probably the better way to confirm since Rabid and Dire lack power, which is important in a lot of condi builds. We should expect Berserker to outdamage Carrion pretty easily, with the possible exception of a target with an armor rating in the 3000 range. But I'd be willing to bet Carrion matches or beats Berserker, which right away tells us condition damage is overtuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen.1347 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Why would you need gear with power to prove that condition damage is overperforming? Wouldn't that show the opposite (no good dps without power)? (Aside from this, carrion won't beat berserker) Now what might be interesting to test is trailblazer, because it offers the same condi damage + duration as viper minus crit and power. On some classes (certainly not on all) it could be close to berserker. Unbalanced? On paper yes, but well, who cares about defensive stats in PvE? And PvP is a whole different story, where a lot more has to be factored in. General across the board changes aren't going to work in either content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Frozen.1347 said: > Why would you need gear with power to prove that condition damage is overperforming? Wouldn't that show the opposite (no good dps without power)? > (Aside from this, carrion won't beat berserker) > > Now what might be interesting to test is trailblazer, because it offers the same condi damage + duration as viper minus crit and power. On some classes (certainly not on all) it could be close to berserker. Unbalanced? On paper yes, but well, who cares about defensive stats in PvE? > > And PvP is a whole different story, where a lot more has to be factored in. > > General across the board changes aren't going to work in either content. Because all condition builds also deal physical damage, which is affected by power. If conditions were not overtuned, we would expect power major with precision/ferocity minor to be pretty equivalent in DPS on a power build to condi major with power/precision/expertise minor with a condition build. PvP is not as much different as people make it out to be. The main difference is in the duration of most fights, and the availability of condi cleanse/immunity in PvP. The first is the reason why balancing condi primarily on fight duration doesn't make sense (if it's "Fine" in pvp, it will be OP in PvE, if it's "fine" in PvE it will be underpowered in PVP), and the second is something that needs to be scaled back alongside a retooling of condition damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen.1347 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 That's no answer to my question, but whatever, didn't expect anything else. So, viper dps = berserker dps = balance? Well, nobody disagrees. But how big the difference between viper and berserker dps is, depends highly on the class and situation you are looking at. There is no general "viper builds deal x% more dmg than berserker builds" rule, so nerfing all condi dmg by x% isn't going to achieve balance. And the difference between PvE and PvP IS huge. There is zero correlation between a class' condi and power performance in PvE and PvP. Completely different builds are used, nobody cares about dps in PvP content. And you don't only have to factor in cleanses, resistance and heals, but also the ability of players to avoid skills (well, at least on paper human players should be doing better at avoiding damage than dumb AI ...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Frozen.1347 said: > That's no answer to my question, but whatever, didn't expect anything else. > > So, viper dps = berserker dps = balance? Well, nobody disagrees. But how big the difference between viper and berserker dps is, depends highly on the class and situation you are looking at. There is no general "viper builds deal x% more dmg than berserker builds" rule, so nerfing all condi dmg by x% isn't going to achieve balance. > > And the difference between PvE and PvP IS huge. There is zero correlation between a class' condi and power performance in PvE and PvP. Completely different builds are used, nobody cares about dps in PvP content. And you don't only have to factor in cleanses, resistance and heals, but also the ability of players to avoid skills (well, at least on paper human players should be doing better at avoiding damage than kitten AI ...). It doesn't depend nearly as much as you imply it does. Viper condi builds beat berserker power builds almost universally, with only a couple of exceptions. This is an indication that whatever balancing paradigm they are using for conditions isn't working well. Obviously, it affects some builds more than others, and more tuning than just "nerf condi by x%" is needed; you have no reason whatsoever to imply I suggested otherwise. The difference between PvE and PvP is not that huge, or at least shouldn't be. The only difference is that players have less health, evade attacks more, and typically have better access to resistance and immunity (which shouldn't really be the case). The reason no one cares about DPS is because fights are too quick for it to matter, which is exactly why condition damage has to be balanced around armor rating and way less around fight duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen.1347 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 But it is a difference if viper beats berserker by 5 % or by 30% and those differences exist. And when looking at qT recommendations for raid bosses, there are 4 out of 11 where condi is recommended over power for all dps classes, so there are still situations where power > condi at least for some classes. Balancing those 2 types of damage is only possible if it happens individually. And regarding PvP ... repeating nonsense isn't going to make it true. The only thing that's right is that balancing around fight duration doesn't make sense (and there is no "balance arround fight duration"), but the same applies to balancing around armor rating (only), which was all you suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade.2341 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 The probelem is we give people everthing and they earn nothing,in db its hell to try to get the pugs in ts3 or discord so we can fight.So if there not tag then no pips I say and the we comanders force them to use ts3 or discord so we can fight or they get nothing! Condi needs to be fixed,tougtness can be made so 50% of condi dps in stoped which well fix the overwelming players that have no skill at all but press1 and kill 50 people in a spot my fire!Anet please fix this your only buffing condi dps and soon people well stop playing or do you even care that skilled players quiet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 The people making condi damage better than direct seem to be assuming that the co-efficients for the direct attack are similar on condi skills as they are on direct damage skills, which is simply not true. I'd love for my necros' sceptre autoattack to do the same base damage as dagger, or even axe. The other thing is that some classes, notably guardian, are hybrid damage dealers regardless of build, so nerfing condi damage is nerfing the whole class (which is just stupid, imo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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