Greatsword and Retard Shroud

[Rikimaru.7890]

Welcome for this experiment I will use the 2 most common Greatsword users, the Guardian and Warrior in a competition with the Reaper on who is the hardest hitter and I will also compare that with the damage of the Reta... I mean Reaper Shroud skills. For this we will assume all 3 are full berserkers, but I will use the base damage from wiki, as obviously the result would be the same when all 3 have same power levels.

For this I will use the GS skills that deal the most damage overall i.e. the AA and weapon skill 2 as rest having a long recharge have low DPS regardless. To keep it simple I won't be taking things like Might or Vulnerability into the calculations either, but I will use the GS traits for each class.

 

The Warrior AA full sequence takes 2,4 sec and all 3 strikes deal the following damage: 282, 282, 363 which gives a total of 927 which divided by the 2,4 sec gives 386.25 DPS.

With Forceful Greatsword trait it gives 424,875 DPS.

 

The Guardian AA full sequence takes 2,5 sec and all 3 strikes deal the following damage: 323, 323, 484 which gives a total of 1130 which divided by the 2,5 sec gives 452 DPS.

With Zealous Blade trait it gives 474,6 DPS.

 

The Reaper AA full sequence takes 2,88 sec and all 3 strikes deal the following damage: 403, 484, 565 which gives a total of 1452 which divided by the 2,88 sec gives 504,16 DPS

With Soul Eater Trait it gives 504,16 DPS (yes it is the only GS trait that does not buff GS damage, even Rangers who rarely use GS have a damage buff in their trait)

 

So yes surprisingly the Reapers AA actually does highest DPS, not taking into account other factors obviously but now it's time for Reaper Shroud AA:

 

The Reaper Shroud AA full sequence takes 2,37 sec and all 3 strikes deal the following damage: 186, 186, 359 which gives a total of 731 which divided by the 2,37 sec gives 308,44 DPS.

Yes thats correct when the GS Reaper enters Reaper Shroud his AA damage drops from top to bottom.

 

So now it's time to compare skill 2 damage:

 

The Warrior skill 2 "Hundred Blades" all 9 strikes deal total of 2140 damage in 3.5 sec time, with a recharge time of 8 sec. which gives 186,08 DPS

With Forceful Greatsword trait it gives 2354 damage with recharge time reduced to 6,5 sec. which gives 235,4 DPS

 

The Guardian skill 2 "Whirling Wrath" all 7 strikes deal a total of 1274 damage in 0.75 sec time, with a recharge time of 8 sec. which gives 145,6 DPS

With Zealous Blade trait it gives 1337,7 damage with recharge time reduced to 6,5 sec. which gives 184,51 DPS

 

The Reaper skill 2 "Gravedigger" deals 1210 damage in 1.25 sec time, with a recharge time of 8 sec. which gives 130,81 DPS

With Soul Eater Trait reduced recharge to 6.5 sec it gives 156,13 DPS, of course with instant recharge at less that 50% health of target it would be 968 DPS, but thats assuming you get instant recharge every time.

 

To the shock of absolutely no one Reapers skill 2 can't compete with Warriors or Guardians skills 2. So now it's time for Reaper Shroud skill 2 however for this I will also use skill 4 as it's more like the GS skill 2.

 

The Reaper Shroud Skill 2 "Death's Charge" deals 346 damage in 1.25 sec time, with a recharge time of 6 sec. which gives 47,72 DPS

With Vital Persistence trait reduced recharge to 4.8 sec it gives 57,19 DPS, yup thats like a third of Gravedigger DPS.

 

The Reaper Shroud Skill 4 "Soul Spiral" deals 2400 damage (this is adding the poison damage which obviously would not be raised by berserker gear) in 2.75 sec time, with a recharge time of 30 sec. which gives 73,28 DPS.

With Vital Persistence trait reduced recharge to 24 sec it gives 89,72 DPS, so thats like half of Gravedigger and thats not taking into account that at higher power the damage would be much lowere in comparison to Gravedigger due to the fact the poison damage would not be increased.

 

So yes it may not seem like the Reaper is that bad, so why is it considered so bad at damage you ask? Well for starters not only do Warriors and Guardians gain bonus damage from their GS trait but from several other too. The other damage boosting traits have conditions, but they still give considerable damage boosts. A fully traited Berserker/Warrior can gain up to 62% damage bonus when in Berserk Mode and thats not taking into account all the Might he self applies and increased attack speed while in Berserk mode.

The Dragonhunter/Guardian can gain over 70% bonus damage, however his conditions are harder to meet. The Necromancer/Reaper however can gain up to 40% bonus damage, and half i.e. 20% only applies when target is below 50% health. One thing I would like to point out is that another 10% of it comes from "Cold Shoulder" now which instead of reducing damage from chilled foes increases damage delt to them. Which is something I came up with when Reaper first came out I was like "hmm why not make Reaper deal more damage to chilled foes?" Well congratulations to whoever came up with it, you are only 2 years behind me.

And while the Reaper can also have increased attack speed in Reaper Shroud with "Reaper's Onslaught" trait just Like when Warriors go Berserk, The Reaper Shroud is actually a debuff when it comes to DPS despite Life Force is harder to accumulate than Adrenaline. Having 15% faster attack speed cannot compensate the loss of nearly 50% DPS.

And of course the Reaper cannot give much support to the rest of the team, unlike the Warrior who can buff their damage with might or the Guardian who can give support in many ways.

[Lahmia.2193]

Yup it all comes down to Necros lack of damage modifiers, as I have been saying for a few years now.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I wonder if it was intended for Shroud to be weaker because you're hiding behind Life Force? It all comes down to core necro in the end: you can't have nice things if you have two health bars.

[Swagg.9236]

Weapons have unique autoattacks instead of homogenized, low-to-middling DPS ones was one of GW2's greatest mistakes. The Gravedigger thing was something that people have complained about for a while because, while kind of unique among skills in GW2 (which is no real feat given the game's shallow nature), it's mind-numbingly boring to play since it's just a switch up to auto-attack spam.

 

Necromancer needs not only more trait-based damage boosts, but higher skill damage modifiers and incentive to use other skills. Reaper, in particular, has zero flow to its gameplay (especially the power spec). Skills need reasons to activate in GW2 (because everything activates so effortlessly and isn't governed by any responsible resource management), and Reaper effectively gives no reason to use any skill but the GS AA and then the 2 button.

[Aetatis.5418]

do you have any data on the skill coefficient?

raw numbers and multipliers look nice but skill coefficient is a major thing in the scaling (adding power/might). no?

 

on the other hand? do i really want to know it? i fear it is another disappointment...

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Reaper gives out Vulnerability like handing candies to Trick-or-Treaters. Using the weapons without build is...du--hmm..._misleading_.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Reaper gives out Vulnerability like handing candies to Trick-or-Treaters. Using the weapons without build is...du--hmm..._misleading_.

 

yeah newsflash almost everyone can do that .....

in group fights for example all the billions of traits that Give Vulnerability is outright useless.... so bassicaly Half the Spite trait line is outright not existing in group content....

 

because everyone is farting Vuln while fighting the boss and other things

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

Why do you use commas instead of decimal points? It makes it harder to read when you have large numbers like 424,875. It comes across as 424 thousand.. rather than "424.875". Apart from that, I get what you're saying and thank you for a detailed analysis.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > Reaper gives out Vulnerability like handing candies to Trick-or-Treaters. Using the weapons without build is...du--hmm..._misleading_.

>

> yeah newsflash almost everyone can do that .....

> in group fights for example all the billions of traits that Give Vulnerability is outright useless.... so bassicaly Half the Spite trait line is outright not existing in group content....

>

> because everyone is farting Vuln while fighting the boss and other things

 

Yeah, the Reaper is the one doing the farting.

[vicious.5683]

> @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said:

> Why do you use commas instead of decimal points? It makes it harder to read when you have large numbers like 424,875. It comes across as 424 thousand.. rather than "424.875". Apart from that, I get what you're saying and thank you for a detailed analysis.

 

We also use decimal commas instead of point where I come from.

We use a space after a comma to separate different elements in a series. Not hard to read at all.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > Reaper gives out Vulnerability like handing candies to Trick-or-Treaters. Using the weapons without build is...du--hmm..._misleading_.

> >

> > yeah newsflash almost everyone can do that .....

> > in group fights for example all the billions of traits that Give Vulnerability is outright useless.... so bassicaly Half the Spite trait line is outright not existing in group content....

> >

> > because everyone is farting Vuln while fighting the boss and other things

>

> Yeah, the Reaper is the one doing the farting.

 

ALL that farting does not have an effect because your target is already sitting on capped 25 Vuln from others......

[Vitali.5039]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > Reaper gives out Vulnerability like handing candies to Trick-or-Treaters. Using the weapons without build is...du--hmm..._misleading_.

> >

> > yeah newsflash almost everyone can do that .....

> > in group fights for example all the billions of traits that Give Vulnerability is outright useless.... so bassicaly Half the Spite trait line is outright not existing in group content....

> >

> > because everyone is farting Vuln while fighting the boss and other things

>

> Yeah, the Reaper is the one doing the farting.

 

[Or](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fresh_Air) [maybe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overload_Air) [not](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weak_Spot)

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

> @vicious.5683 said:

> > @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said:

> > Why do you use commas instead of decimal points? It makes it harder to read when you have large numbers like 424,875. It comes across as 424 thousand.. rather than "424.875". Apart from that, I get what you're saying and thank you for a detailed analysis.

>

> We also use decimal commas instead of point where I come from.

> We use a space after a comma to separate different elements in a series. Not hard to read at all.

 

Where do you come from? Just curious. And how would you construe "1,234.56, 789.1" if you wrote it as "1,234,56, 789,1"..?

[TheDevice.2751]

Thanks for taking the time to do all that :+1:

[KrHome.1920]

> @Rikimaru.7890 said:

> Text

Necro lacks damage modifiers. Nothing new here. ANet explained this with the Necros/Reapers sustain in PvE (it's the most forgiving PvE class). They had the chance to fix this on the shroudless Scourge. Unfortunately they did not. Now they say Scourge can't have high modifiers because it has too much support. Just stupid if you ask me.

 

> @"Zoltar MacRoth.7146" said:

> Why do you use commas instead of decimal points? It makes it harder to read when you have large **numbers like 424,875. It comes across as 424 thousand**.. rather than "424.875".

Long version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark

Short version: https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19455-01/806-0169/overview-9/index.html

 

E.g. for most countries in Europe (except UK and Ireland I think):

500.000 - five hundred thousand

500,000 - five hundred

 

[Lily.1935]

You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

[KrHome.1920]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

He forgot a lot. For example that GS buffs itself by 10% as it inflicts chill. Or that the nonexistent -50% HP CD on Grave Digger is also a damage increase like the other weapons traits but just another kind of mechanic. Or that necro is strong at self buffing (Might) and debuffing (can inflict pretty much every CC condi in the game) which is of course pointless in group play when it overlaps with other classes effects.

 

All in all necro is in a very weird spot. ANet fails over and over again to separate traits in a way that you have either a viable amount of damage or support or sustain - and not a bit of everything in an underpowered or overpowered way.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

 

> All in all necro is in a very weird spot. ANet fails over and over again to separate traits in a way that you have either a viable amount of damage or support or sustain - and not a bit of everything in an underpowered or overpowered way.

 

not erything.... we still don't have mobility or real def CDs outside of shrouds...

 

and in all 3 you mentioned necro is bad in them compared to others....

[KrHome.1920]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> and in all 3 you mentioned necro is bad in them compared to others....

That sums up my posting.

 

[CCLegion.5936]

Your approach to this is flawed and you should fix that. The damage numbers for Reaper shroud on the wiki are not correct as they use the unequipped weapon strength to calculate its damage when Reaper shroud actually uses a hammer of the same rarity as your equipped weapon prior to entering shroud, meaning that the wiki is depicting reaper shroud damage with only 60% of its weapon strength, give or take a couple percent and assuming an ascended weapon. This can be easily verified by going into the game and comparing a reaper with no power gear with the wiki values and then doing so for the other weapons.

Also, there is no base damage in GW2, it's all in the coefficient use coefficients and apply things to them. They are generally better for simply comparing skill damage, though it helps to know what weapon strength they are applied with, mostly relevant when comparing 1h vs 2h vs offhand vs utility skills, so I'm not going to bother with that here.

A couple examples follow. Some of these values are off the top of my head so they might be incorrect.

RS AA has a skill coefficient of 2.75 per chain(0.7 for the first 2 attacks, 1.35 for the last 1) with a total cast of 2.37, giving us roughly 1.16 per second.

Reaper GS AA has a skill coefficient of 3.6 with a total duration of 2.88 seconds, giving us 1.25 coefficient per second.

Guardian GS AA has a total coefficient of 2.8, giving us 1.12 coefficient per second after applying its 2.5s total cast time.

Warrior GS AA's total coefficient is 2.3 with a 2.4s total cast, giving us 0.95 coefficient per second.

Ranger GS AA is by far the lowest, likely due to the evade and pet damage included, with a 1.82 total coefficient over 2.56s, giving us 0.72 coefficient per second.

 

Now Guardian Whirling Wrath. Have you seen that thing? 0.75s covers less than half of it. Remember, 0,75 is how long a dodge lasts and that the cast time given on skills is pretty much never the whole story. It's not the most scientific of approaches but just looking at my cooldown timers, it takes close to 2s, bringing down its DPS by a fair bit, especially if the projectiles don't all hit. I'll probably take better measurements tomorrow but it's getting kinda late for me.

[Rikimaru.7890]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

 

No I did not remember that I am using power builds for comparison, thats because Guardians using Viper gear are unheard of, so Dhuumfire won't do much damage in a power build.

 

 

[Rikimaru.7890]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

> He forgot a lot. For example that GS buffs itself by 10% as it inflicts chill. Or that the nonexistent -50% HP CD on Grave Digger is also a damage increase like the other weapons traits but just another kind of mechanic. Or that necro is strong at self buffing (Might) and debuffing (can inflict pretty much every CC condi in the game) which is of course pointless in group play when it overlaps with other classes effects.

>

> All in all necro is in a very weird spot. ANet fails over and over again to separate traits in a way that you have either a viable amount of damage or support or sustain - and not a bit of everything in an underpowered or overpowered way.

Ehm thats the effect of "Cold Shoulder" which I did mention in last part.

 

[KrHome.1920]

> @Rikimaru.7890 said:

> > @KrHome.1920 said:

> > > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

> > He forgot a lot. For example that GS buffs itself by 10% as it inflicts chill. Or that the nonexistent -50% HP CD on Grave Digger is also a damage increase like the other weapons traits but just another kind of mechanic. Or that necro is strong at self buffing (Might) and debuffing (can inflict pretty much every CC condi in the game) which is of course pointless in group play when it overlaps with other classes effects.

> >

> > All in all necro is in a very weird spot. ANet fails over and over again to separate traits in a way that you have either a viable amount of damage or support or sustain - and not a bit of everything in an underpowered or overpowered way.

> Ehm thats the effect of "Cold Shoulder" which I did mention in last part.

Yes and this is a good example why your text is misleading and not helpful to get an impression about actual damage values.

 

Why do you separate Cold Shoulder from the Reaper GS values at the beginning while including the damage increase traits of the other classes?

 

Does not make sense. Your text is a mess.

 

Passage:

_With Soul Eater Trait it gives 504,16 DPS (yes it is the only GS trait that does not buff GS damage, even Rangers who rarely use GS have a damage buff in their trait)_

 

Soul Eater is not relevant at this point, but Cold Shoulder is. Which brings me to what I said in my previous post: The mechanics are different. It makes no sense to compare raw damage values.

 

 

[Rikimaru.7890]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @Rikimaru.7890 said:

> > > @KrHome.1920 said:

> > > > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > > You forgot to mention dhuum fire. As that makes reaper shroud aa our strongest.

> > > He forgot a lot. For example that GS buffs itself by 10% as it inflicts chill. Or that the nonexistent -50% HP CD on Grave Digger is also a damage increase like the other weapons traits but just another kind of mechanic. Or that necro is strong at self buffing (Might) and debuffing (can inflict pretty much every CC condi in the game) which is of course pointless in group play when it overlaps with other classes effects.

> > >

> > > All in all necro is in a very weird spot. ANet fails over and over again to separate traits in a way that you have either a viable amount of damage or support or sustain - and not a bit of everything in an underpowered or overpowered way.

> > Ehm thats the effect of "Cold Shoulder" which I did mention in last part.

> Yes and this is a good example why your text is misleading and not helpful to get an impression about actual damage values.

>

> Why do you separate Cold Shoulder from the Reaper GS values at the beginning while including the damage increase traits of the other classes?

>

> Does not make sense. Your text is a mess.

>

> Passage:

> _With Soul Eater Trait it gives 504,16 DPS (yes it is the only GS trait that does not buff GS damage, even Rangers who rarely use GS have a damage buff in their trait)_

>

> Soul Eater is not relevant at this point, but Cold Shoulder is. Which brings me to what I said in my previous post: The mechanics are different. It makes no sense to compare raw damage values.

>

>

 

Because it's a conditioned trait i.e. requires the target to be Chilled so it will have no effect on foes that are immune to Chill.

Forceful Greatsword and Zealous Blade however specifically increases the damage while whielding GS for Warrior and Guardian respectively.

I also mentioned how Warrior and Guardian have several other Damage boosting traits with other conditions than just using GS.

So if I were to use Cold Shoulder in the equation I would have to use the Guardians and Warriors other damage boosting traits too.

But it's impossible to have all conditions met all the time hence I only used the traits which condition can always be met i.e. whielding a GS.

Was it absolutely necessary for me to explain all of this?

 

[Muchacho.2390]

> @Rikimaru.7890 said:

 

> Because it's a conditioned trait i.e. requires the target to be Chilled so it will have no effect on foes that are immune to Chill.

 

For the trait it only matters that the chill condition is on your target. It doesnt matter if the target is immune or not. Also things like resistance or a champions cc bar will still grant you the damage bonus even if the chill doesnt effect them (other that the condition is on them).

 

And i dont think there are that many mobs you cannot apply the chill condition at all.