How about making Regeneration stack intensity?

[Rauderi.8706]

> @Leablo.2651 said:

> Why not just increase the base effect of regen? Stacking really only serves the purpose of making stacking builds, and regen stacking seems to fit the bunker style pattern that Anet tried to move the game away from.

 

If the only complaint was "Regen doesn't do enough," then increasing the base effect would be a simple enough solution.

But it goes a little beyond that, involving the way that Regen stacks duration-only. It has a limited number of stacks before it starts to push off other effects, off and it's possible that weaker stacks will override ones from dedicated healers. Or that stacks from healers trying to respond to a damage situation might end up having their applied stacks delayed by 10+ seconds because of the stacks currently in place. In essence, someone's boon invokes a punishment situation.

[choovanski.5462]

@"Toolbox.9375"

ah, didn't realise the build had so little regeneration. a warhorn swap could help, but yeah.

 

still, i think ele has much better regeneration access. & in a teamfight with an ele, & either a druid or centaur rev- or both, the regeneration stacking would be nuts. i think thats the area where it becomes an issue. you would just have so much more passive regeneration in teamfights.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> And then you get WvW blob where you can get 20 stacks, respectable and very OP :dizzy:

> Or many other PvE situations where you can abuse it A Lot!

 

Which is why I'm a strong advocate of a stack limit! :)

I hope I was clear about that in my posts above. I'd considered going as high as 5, but 3 really does seem like the most that should happen if Regen stacks.

 

And even that idea is falling out for me, in favor of having Regen be a pool of potential HP that is distributed to the character at a max of ~2% Max HP per second, so even if there's a huge burst of Regen, it won't become overpowered in PvP/WvW situations.

 

[Toolbox.9375]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> @"Toolbox.9375"

> ah, didn't realise the build had so little regeneration. a warhorn swap could help, but yeah.

>

> still, i think ele has much better regeneration access. & in a teamfight with an ele, & either a druid or centaur rev- or both, the regeneration stacking would be nuts. i think thats the area where it becomes an issue. you would just have so much more passive regeneration in teamfights.

 

I suppose that's a fair concern. Here's what I was able to come up with with an Elementalist build focused entirely on giving allies Regeneration:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJBLhc0fJWhJ4gJwhJWKBM3z6a9tScBqABgCA-jpwNABwWGAg9HAA

 

Attune Water: 8 / 17.5 - 0.46

Overload Water: 21 / 17.5 - 1.2

Overload Earth: 8 / 17.5 - 0.46

Sand Squall: 8 / 30 - 0.27

Water Trident: 4.75 / 16 - 0.3

Tidal Surge: 13 / 28 - 0.46

Feel the Burn: 8 / 25 - 0.32

Flash Freeze: 8 / 30 - 0.27

Aftershock: 8 / 45 - 0.18

Rebound: 8 / 75 - 0.1

Soothing Ice: 8 / 10 - 0.8

Rune of Dwayna: 8 / 10 - 0.8

Imbued Melodies: 8 / 30 - 0.27

 

589% Regeneration uptime

1778.78 health per second (1476.78 higher than the same build with the current Regeneration system, plus the build loses Tempest's Elemental Bastion Grandmaster to get the Regeneration uptime to be higher, which removes a large healing component of current Aura-focused support builds)

 

That certainly is high, but please check the build required to make it work before passing judgement. Overload Water is one big source of Regeneration, but is very easy to interrupt, especially given that such a build has no source of Stability outside of Overload Earth, which obviously cannot benefit Overload Water. Every Utility skill is used, as well, making personal survivability very difficult against any sort of focus fire. Basically, it takes some huge sacrifices to run such a build, and as always, those numbers are the absolute maximum that could possibly be achieved; many traits/runes won't trigger right off of cooldown, abilities can and will be interrupted, Chill will mess with application, and the general chaos of combat will interfere with a perfect rotation.

 

In regards to WvW zergs, lots of numbers are flying around in general; even with some people dedicating their builds to healing (something currently not very useful in zerg scenarios where Water Field Blasts are king), there's ten enemies waiting to blast straight through that bit of health being recovered and take you down despite your efforts to heal it back. I don't personally believe that the healing would get so bad as to force stalemates in zerg-vs-zerg combat. Healer builds could certainly find a place zerg as the result of a change to Regeneration, but they wouldn't become so powerful as to heavily disrupt the way zerg battles play out. In my opinion, at least; I'm not currently sure of a way to mathematically prove that claim.

[Nyel.1843]

> @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

> > @Ubi.4136 said:

> > Maybe for PvE (non-raid), but this would break pvp and wvw. As it stands now, people just stand under arrow carts unkillable, stacking regen would just make the blobs that much more invincible.

>

> Not if you cap it based on vitality like they did with barrier. There has to be limits to everything. So instead being capped by the number of boons you receive, potentially losing healing if someone with low healing power gives you regen, the cap would be based on your vitality. Allowing all sources of regen to stack up to that cap.

>

> So, in short, it could be like this:

> * All regend stacks, up to a cap.

> * Vitality determines the max regen you can accumulate.

> * Healing power from those who give the regen determines how fast it can go.

>

> If there's too much healing, the cap be reduced. If it works too fast, its scaling from healing power can be reduced.

> By having these moving parts you have tools to keep it balanced.

 

This sounds like a mixture of my suggestions and I really like it!

 

I think all of us agree that there needs to be some kind of "counter-balance" (Poison?) that it doesn't get too strong.

[mazut.4296]

> @Rauderi.8706 said:

> > @mazut.4296 said:

> > And then you get WvW blob where you can get 20 stacks, respectable and very OP :dizzy:

> > Or many other PvE situations where you can abuse it A Lot!

>

> Which is why I'm a strong advocate of a stack limit! :)

> I hope I was clear about that in my posts above. I'd considered going as high as 5, but 3 really does seem like the most that should happen if Regen stacks.

>

> And even that idea is falling out for me, in favor of having Regen be a pool of potential HP that is distributed to the character at a max of ~2% Max HP per second, so even if there's a huge burst of Regen, it won't become overpowered in PvP/WvW situations.

>

 

If there is a limit all the additional cast will be wasted, why? How is this a good design? Just make no sense. I think regeneration could use some tweaks. Stronger heals or higher healing power multiplier, but this will lead to a lot of balancing, which Anet obviously can't do. Many times they stated that they lack the Dev numbers to do all this little things. They prefer to produce new content and balance, the more important parts of the game.

I also wanna see a bunch of things changed. Some significant, other just slightly, but...

[Scipion.7548]

An other solution would be to have one unique regeneration for each "healer" classes (druid ranger, ele, and soon guard with FB elite spec). So each classes wouldn't be overpowered healer over time but you can bring more hots in a group.

"Regeneration" would be the core heal over time, available for all classes.

"Regrowth" would be the druid's unique heal over time.

"Healing Water" would be the ele's unique hot.

"Renew" would be the firebrand's unique hot.

[Teratus.2859]

I would like this as well.. although I'd expect it would need a lot of tinkering to get working right.. and it would involve a lot of skill changes..

 

Perhaps a low cap limit might help.. say 5 stacks which would still force you to take healing power to really make the most of regen..

[mazut.4296]

> @Scipion.7548 said:

> An other solution would be to have one unique regeneration for each "healer" classes (druid ranger, ele, and soon guard with FB elite spec). So each classes wouldn't be overpowered healer over time but you can bring more hots in a group.

> "Regeneration" would be the core heal over time, available for all classes.

> "Regrowth" would be the druid's unique heal over time.

> "Healing Water" would be the ele's unique hot.

> "Renew" would be the firebrand's unique hot.

 

GW1 had this, but Anet simplified it (to much imo) and merged all enchantment, buffs, auras, effects into few boons. And all hexes and conditions from GW1 into few conditions. I think the game suffered from this oversimplification. That's why we don't have prof. specific buffs/debuffs.

I don't think we ever gonna see something like that.

[Nyel.1843]

> @Scipion.7548 said:

> An other solution would be to have one unique regeneration for each "healer" classes (druid ranger, ele, and soon guard with FB elite spec). So each classes wouldn't be overpowered healer over time but you can bring more hots in a group.

> "Regeneration" would be the core heal over time, available for all classes.

> "Regrowth" would be the druid's unique heal over time.

> "Healing Water" would be the ele's unique hot.

> "Renew" would be the firebrand's unique hot.

 

Like!

[Nyel.1843]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> > @Scipion.7548 said:

> > An other solution would be to have one unique regeneration for each "healer" classes (druid ranger, ele, and soon guard with FB elite spec). So each classes wouldn't be overpowered healer over time but you can bring more hots in a group.

> > "Regeneration" would be the core heal over time, available for all classes.

> > "Regrowth" would be the druid's unique heal over time.

> > "Healing Water" would be the ele's unique hot.

> > "Renew" would be the firebrand's unique hot.

>

> GW1 had this, but Anet simplified it (to much imo) and merged all enchantment, buffs, auras, effects into few boons. And all hexes and conditions from GW1 into few conditions. I think the game suffered from this oversimplification. That's why we don't have prof. specific buffs/debuffs.

> I don't think we ever gonna see something like that.

 

Well, they changed some of the conditions in the last years due to those issues. They could do the same with Regeneration. I think the condition / boon system is genius and one of the very well-thought design aspects of GW2. Nevertheless I miss class specific buffs/debuffs. It's easier as it is now but still. Regeneration is a nice thing but feels weak, that's why I would love to see some tweaks making it more "impactful".

 

 

[Scipion.7548]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> GW1 had this, but Anet simplified it (to much imo) and merged all enchantment, buffs, auras, effects into few boons. And all hexes and conditions from GW1 into few conditions. I think the game suffered from this oversimplification. That's why we don't have prof. specific buffs/debuffs.

> I don't think we ever gonna see something like that.

 

You are not wrong, but not totally true : what about alacrity ? Only mesmer (and Rev but this is pointless) can bring it.

[Curunen.8729]

Hell yes I'd love it if regen stacked intensity rather than duration! :D

[CrAzY.3275]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> Not sure, I can see Druid or Ele stacking so much regeneration, so much heal per tick, that it would be absolutely unkillable in PvP.

 

Rugged Growth.

Druid literally just got a brand new trait that EVERYONE uses in pvp that gives 597 healing per sec while you have protection.. thats 20-35k healing a minute....

simply for having A BOON THAT ALREADY REDUCES DAMAGE.

Before counting regen or heal skills whatsoever..

 

If regen were buffed druid would honestly be unkillable and you would be forced to rotate around them and completely ignore the point they are on...

just like a ventari rev build.

The LAST thing pvp needs is more builds can hold a point endlessly while literally not being weak to shit in 1v1.

 

There is no need for more sustain in pvp/wvw

If this change really were to happen.. and it shouldn't... because every single new effect that is stackable is a drastic amount of more constant calculations.

This game really does not need more lag midfight.

 

Regen stacking should to be PVE ONLY or not at all.

[Toolbox.9375]

> @CrAzY.3275 said:

> > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > Not sure, I can see Druid or Ele stacking so much regeneration, so much heal per tick, that it would be absolutely unkillable in PvP.

>

> Rugged Growth.

> Druid literally just got a brand new trait that EVERYONE uses in pvp that gives 597 healing per sec while you have protection.. thats 20-35k healing a minute....

> simply for having A BOON THAT ALREADY REDUCES DAMAGE.

> Before counting regen or heal skills whatsoever..

>

> If regen were buffed druid would honestly be unkillable and you would be forced to rotate around them and completely ignore the point they are on...

> just like a ventari rev build.

> The LAST thing pvp needs is more builds can hold a point endlessly while literally not being weak to kitten in 1v1.

>

> There is no need for more sustain in pvp/wvw

> If this change really were to happen.. and it shouldn't... because every single new effect that is stackable is a drastic amount of more constant calculations.

> This game really does not need more lag midfight.

>

> Regen stacking should to be PVE ONLY or not at all.

 

I'm having a hard time working out a build that would make heavy use of both Protection and Regeneration. Did you have a build in mind that would be problematic with stacking Regeneration?

[Razor.9872]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> > @Rauderi.8706 said:

> > > @mazut.4296 said:

> > > And then you get WvW blob where you can get 20 stacks, respectable and very OP :dizzy:

> > > Or many other PvE situations where you can abuse it A Lot!

> >

> > Which is why I'm a strong advocate of a stack limit! :)

> > I hope I was clear about that in my posts above. I'd considered going as high as 5, but 3 really does seem like the most that should happen if Regen stacks.

> >

> > And even that idea is falling out for me, in favor of having Regen be a pool of potential HP that is distributed to the character at a max of ~2% Max HP per second, so even if there's a huge burst of Regen, it won't become overpowered in PvP/WvW situations.

> >

>

> If there is a limit all the additional cast will be wasted, why? How is this a good design? Just make no sense. I think regeneration could use some tweaks. Stronger heals or higher healing power multiplier, but this will lead to a lot of balancing, which Anet obviously can't do. Many times they stated that they lack the Dev numbers to do all this little things. They prefer to produce new content and balance, the more important parts of the game.

> I also wanna see a bunch of things changed. Some significant, other just slightly, but...

 

I think Anet could do it. After all, they did it with other boons/conditions (quickness, weakness, poison, torment, confusion, might). Allowing regen to stack simply allows multiple players who want to apply regen to not waste their build simply because another does the same.

 

It's worth mentioning that regen is a boon. And, like other boons, it is incredibly volatile. Especially with Spellbreaker and Scorge coming with PoF.

[Rauderi.8706]

> @Razor.9872 said:

> I think Anet could do it. After all, they did it with other boons/conditions (quickness, weakness, poison, torment, confusion, might). Allowing regen to stack simply allows multiple players who want to apply regen to not waste their build simply because another does the same.

>

> It's worth mentioning that regen is a boon. And, like other boons, it is incredibly volatile. Especially with Spellbreaker and Scorge coming with PoF.

 

If Regen does get some kind of re-work to make it more team-friendly, we definitely need to consider the counters involved.

Boon strip, corruption, Poison, burst damage . .

 

Which leads me to an uncomfortable but necessary question:

*Should ANet up the healing penalty on Poison* if Regen is re-worked or buffed?

I really can't say one way or the other, but the ramifications would be pretty broad, and thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

 

[Nyel.1843]

Well, if Regen becomes stackable, why not Poison as well? Make it 25 stacks each 4% so that 8-9 stacks is like baseline Poison now. 100% less healing could be critical but I don't know if that's even achievable (it most likely would be with builds tailored for that). WvW it would be too strong. Or just make it 10 stacks and 4-5% per stack for a maximum of 50%. I think it would work very well (if balanced right).

[Rauderi.8706]

> @Nyel.1843 said:

> Well, if Regen becomes stackable, why not Poison as well? Make it 25 stacks each 4% so that 8-9 stacks is like baseline Poison now. 100% less healing could be critical but I don't know if that's even achievable (it most likely would be with builds tailored for that). WvW it would be too strong. Or just make it 10 stacks and 4-5% per stack for a maximum of 50%. I think it would work very well (if balanced right).

 

That feels like Poison would start off weak. Baseline 25%, stacks add some percentage to a maximum of 50% might work better. Poison would be a lot scarier. o_O

[Brutaly.6257]

for me its not about making regen stronger. Its about making it more usuable. In all game modes bursts is the biggest threat and regen has no impact versus burst.

 

Make it stack but make it more rare. Why not just cut all traits and skills that give regen with 50% in duration and make it scale better with healing power. If i can pull off 3 stacks of regen (warrior banners for instance) why shouldnt it heal for 600/s when i am forced to use all my banners in order to do it and also equip or it. Just balance it with duration.

 

Regen and possible aegis are useless as utilities (FB might change the aegis thing though) in almost all game modes and it needs to be adressed.

[Brutaly.6257]

> @mazut.4296 said:

> > @Scipion.7548 said:

> > An other solution would be to have one unique regeneration for each "healer" classes (druid ranger, ele, and soon guard with FB elite spec). So each classes wouldn't be overpowered healer over time but you can bring more hots in a group.

> > "Regeneration" would be the core heal over time, available for all classes.

> > "Regrowth" would be the druid's unique heal over time.

> > "Healing Water" would be the ele's unique hot.

> > "Renew" would be the firebrand's unique hot.

>

> GW1 had this, but Anet simplified it (to much imo) and merged all enchantment, buffs, auras, effects into few boons. And all hexes and conditions from GW1 into few conditions. I think the game suffered from this oversimplification. That's why we don't have prof. specific buffs/debuffs.

> I don't think we ever gonna see something like that.

 

Anet should have kept some boons as class specifci boons. And balance the boon. This would also make all profession sought after if the boon is strong enough and positioned correctly in relation to other boons

 

Aegis = Guardians

might = Warriors

Stability = Engies

Etc

[Nyel.1843]

> @Rauderi.8706 said:

> > @Nyel.1843 said:

> > Well, if Regen becomes stackable, why not Poison as well? Make it 25 stacks each 4% so that 8-9 stacks is like baseline Poison now. 100% less healing could be critical but I don't know if that's even achievable (it most likely would be with builds tailored for that). WvW it would be too strong. Or just make it 10 stacks and 4-5% per stack for a maximum of 50%. I think it would work very well (if balanced right).

>

> That feels like Poison would start off weak. Baseline 25%, stacks add some percentage to a maximum of 50% might work better. Poison would be a lot scarier. o_O

 

Yeah this sounds a bit more balanced than my suggestion.

[Toolbox.9375]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> for me its not about making regen stronger. Its about making it more usuable. In all game modes bursts is the biggest threat and regen has no impact versus burst.

>

> Make it stack but make it more rare. Why not just cut all traits and skills that give regen with 50% in duration and make it scale better with healing power. If i can pull off 3 stacks of regen (warrior banners for instance) why shouldnt it heal for 600/s when i am forced to use all my banners in order to do it and also equip or it. Just balance it with duration.

>

> Regen and possible aegis are useless as utilities (FB might change the aegis thing though) in almost all game modes and it needs to be adressed.

 

I'm not even sure that reducing Regeneration duration is necessary. All the builds I've pieced together in response to concerns about stacking Regeneration being overpowered, actually seem perfectly reasonable. I'd already figured that'd be the case before putting forth the suggestion in the first place, though explicitly calculating them has certainly strengthened my belief that it'd be a reasonable change. One of the big reasons I even felt willing to make the suggestion was that it wouldn't require any sort of big balance pass through all of the Regeneration-granting skills; it'd be quite fair even with all skills and traits as they are now.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I feel like this is something that is absolutely needed to add weight to support builds in the game as well as an extra form of condition defense. I support the idea.

[Oglaf.1074]

That might actually make me at the very least consider going for the healing banners trait on my Warrior.

 

It _might_.