Cyninja.2954 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > Not worried about boon duration, just about balance between classes. Support should be approximately as valuable as any other category. That will never be the case in 10 man raids. This is the same as any other raid MMO with raids of this size. You will always have a necessity of minimum support classes (be it healers, tanks, or what ever) to provide what ever the raid design requires. The rest gets filled up with damage dealers. This is what every meta always comes back to. At a size of 10 players, this will just about always come down to 50-60% support classes, rest damage dealers. Creating more demand for support characters does exactly the opposite of reducing the demand for them. For example, by halfing the provided alacrity and quickness (as example), the current meta would shift from 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS to 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS, 2 firebrand and 2 renegade. Both Firebrand and Renegade would have to cover the missing alacrity and quickness and bringing 4 chronos would not be an option due to to much damage loss (or the meta would change to 4 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS and 2 damage dealers). Both results are far more restricting than what we have now. The easiest solution to a problem (class to strong, must nerf) is not always the one which leads to a desired result. The desired result (more flexibility in raid slots) goes contrary to the effect (less demand for class x) because nothing as far as requirements of the raid design were changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mygamingid.5816 Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > Not worried about boon duration, just about balance between classes. Support should be approximately as valuable as any other category. > > That will never be the case in 10 man raids. This is the same as any other raid MMO with raids of this size. > > You will always have a necessity of minimum support classes (be it healers, tanks, or what ever) to provide what ever the raid design requires. The rest gets filled up with damage dealers. This is what every meta always comes back to. At a size of 10 players, this will just about always come down to 50-60% support classes, rest damage dealers. > > Creating more demand for support characters does exactly the opposite of reducing the demand for them. > > For example, by halfing the provided alacrity and quickness (as example), the current meta would shift from 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS to 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS, 2 firebrand and 2 renegade. Both Firebrand and Renegade would have to cover the missing alacrity and quickness and bringing 4 chronos would not be an option due to to much damage loss (or the meta would change to 4 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS and 2 damage dealers). Both results are far more restricting than what we have now. Reducing the effect is not reducing the duration, so I’m not sure where you’re going here? Reiterating that I don’t care about duration at all. 100% duration is fine, 10-person boons are fine, but the value of that support needs to be normalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Honestly removing concentration and gear that provides boon duration from the game (along with expertise and condi duration gear) would be a step in the right direction in my opinion. It shouldn't be so easy to stack permanent boons, especially by a single player. As much as I love chronomancer, it should be impossible for 1 chrono to stack 100% quickness uptime by themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Unfortunately once they put those stats in, it all goes to hell. They did the same with expertise and conditon classes. Ferocity is there as well. They should have stuck with power and precision as universal offensive stats and rebalanced conditions so they can crit. Splitting condition damage from power just created way too many balance problems, as did the introduction of boon duration and healing power. Balance the damn baseline values and it gets a lot easier than having to deal with so much variability in gear combinations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > Not worried about boon duration, just about balance between classes. Support should be approximately as valuable as any other category. > > > > That will never be the case in 10 man raids. This is the same as any other raid MMO with raids of this size. > > > > You will always have a necessity of minimum support classes (be it healers, tanks, or what ever) to provide what ever the raid design requires. The rest gets filled up with damage dealers. This is what every meta always comes back to. At a size of 10 players, this will just about always come down to 50-60% support classes, rest damage dealers. > > > > Creating more demand for support characters does exactly the opposite of reducing the demand for them. > > > > For example, by halfing the provided alacrity and quickness (as example), the current meta would shift from 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS to 2 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS, 2 firebrand and 2 renegade. Both Firebrand and Renegade would have to cover the missing alacrity and quickness and bringing 4 chronos would not be an option due to to much damage loss (or the meta would change to 4 chronos, 2 druids, 2 cPS and 2 damage dealers). Both results are far more restricting than what we have now. > > Reducing the effect is not reducing the duration, so I’m not sure where you’re going here? Reiterating that I don’t care about duration at all. 100% duration is fine, 10-person boons are fine, but the value of that support needs to be normalized. The result remains almost the same, reducing the effectiveness of the utility will increase the pressure on the damdage dealers. Even with your suggested changes, some benfit is better than no benefit. Best case some of the now mandatory support classes get exchanged by others (say healing tempest for druid, firebrand+renegade for mesmer). The overall result becomes more toxic and more restrictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > For balance, they should provide no more team DPS than what they give up personally. So if they give up 20k, they should give out 2k in boons to 10 squad members. Perfect balance may not be the goal, so give them a token benefit over that, but nothing like the massive benefits they offer now. > > > > Here's the problem with that: if you don't reward the sacrifice in personal dps properly, it makes no sense to make it. Why bother building a support which relies on having a group to do the dps when you can go dps and do equally well both in group and solo? > > I’m all for rewarding the sacrifice of personal DPS. Just don’t make the reward so overwhelming that there literally is no substitute. There's no way around. You either outweigh the sacrificed personal dps or the sacrifice becomes meaningless. Because you're trading unconditional performance for conditional one, which is always inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublimatio.6981 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 even now taking 3rd dps instead of druid is almost no difference in dps. nerf druid buffs and you just eliminate it from comp. the answer is to make the buffs affect 10 ppl so comps can get more varied. and maybe then nerf their effects to prevent power creep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 My question is why did we move to special effects that exist outside of boons and we can have them for 100% of the encounter in the first place? The boon system was fine there wasnt need for unique modifiers and class specific effects. At least not effects that you can upkeep for 100%. Effects that have small upkeep time and are powerful would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 I very much like the 4 dps, 2 druid, 2 chrono and 2 ps war meta. No need to change anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > Not worried about boon duration, just about balance between classes. Support should be approximately as valuable as any other category. And here's the crux of th problem: in order for support to be a reasonable option, it has to offer _more_ than you sacifice to get it. Why? Because getting the most of your support build requires top performance not only from you, but also from everyone else in your group. Basically, if 10x dps group can dish out the same damage (and have the same survivability/etc) as a hybrid group, then you should take the dps group all the time. It's easier to create (you basically don't have to worry about role synnergy), and individual mistakes only create loss of dps for that person, and do not impact the performance of other players. If following your suggestion, then taking support would end up as an option where you needlessly complicate things for no gain at all. As such, it would be inferior to no-support choice. > @Feanor.2358 said: > There's no way around. You either outweigh the sacrificed personal dps or the sacrifice becomes meaningless. Because you're trading unconditional performance for conditional one, which is always inferior. So, basically this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > I very much like the 4 dps, 2 druid, 2 chrono and 2 ps war meta. No need to change anything Agree, and as long as 1 of those 4 dps is Renegade I'm set!!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 people talking about nerfing boons making allot of stuff and builds weak or useless/bad.... then you remember necros don't even have the 80% of the ingame boons....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savacli.8172 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > people talking about nerfing boons making allot of stuff and builds weak or useless/bad.... > > then you remember necros don't even have the 80% of the ingame boons....... Necro's have access to Might, Regen, Protection, Stab, Fury, Retaliation, and Swiftness The only one's that they don't have access to are Aegis, Quickness, Resistance, and Vigor. Though you could get those through converting conditions. Weird...that's doesn't seem like 80% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @savacli.8172 said: > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > people talking about nerfing boons making allot of stuff and builds weak or useless/bad.... > > > > then you remember necros don't even have the 80% of the ingame boons....... > > Necro's have access to Might, Regen, Protection, Stab, Fury, Retaliation, and Swiftness > The only one's that they don't have access to are Aegis, Quickness, Resistance, and Vigor. Though you could get those through converting conditions. > > Weird...that's doesn't seem like 80% Ahhh yes, the mightly spite/soul reaping/blood magic/curses/scourge build with warhorn, focus, and staff. Sarcasm aside, boon uptime is more important than boon access. Necromancers can only do 25 stacks of might on either a scourge build or a spite+reaper build. And the spite reaper can only do 25 stacks when hitting a target below 50% HP. Necros have 1 source of Fury on the entire class and it's uptime is pitiful. Necros can only do protection on a wells build and even then have to stack boon duration in order to get good uptimes out of it. Necro has 1 source of retal and the uptime is worse than our fury. Necro's only regen source is staff2 and focus4. But that regen is actually detrimental because it might overwrite the stronger regen from a support. Necro swiftness comes from either warhorn5 or Speed of Shadows, and again the uptime is meh in a real environment. Necro Stability, just lol. Condi-to-boon conversion is not boon access. You do not have control on what condis are applied to you, so conversion is not a reliable boon source. Moreover condi-to-boon conversion gives very low durations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @savacli.8172 said: > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > people talking about nerfing boons making allot of stuff and builds weak or useless/bad.... > > > > > > then you remember necros don't even have the 80% of the ingame boons....... > > > > Necro's have access to Might, Regen, Protection, Stab, Fury, Retaliation, and Swiftness > > The only one's that they don't have access to are Aegis, Quickness, Resistance, and Vigor. Though you could get those through converting conditions. > > > > Weird...that's doesn't seem like 80% > > Ahhh yes, the mightly spite/soul reaping/blood magic/curses/scourge build with warhorn, focus, and staff. > > Sarcasm aside, boon uptime is more important than boon access. > > Necromancers can only do 25 stacks of might on either a scourge build or a spite+reaper build. And the spite reaper can only do 25 stacks when hitting a target below 50% HP. > Necros have 1 source of Fury on the entire class and it's uptime is pitiful. > Necros can only do protection on a wells build and even then have to stack boon duration in order to get good uptimes out of it. > Necro has 1 source of retal and the uptime is worse than our fury. > Necro's only regen source is staff2 and focus4. But that regen is actually detrimental because it might overwrite the stronger regen from a support. > Necro swiftness comes from either warhorn5 or Speed of Shadows, and again the uptime is meh in a real environment. > Necro Stability, just lol. > > Condi-to-boon conversion is not boon access. You do not have control on what condis are applied to you, so conversion is not a reliable boon source. Moreover condi-to-boon conversion gives very low durations. > I teared up...really. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Please stop nerfing boons. Supports are fun to have in MMO's and this is an rpg, it should retain RPG elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Why break a meta that is revolved around one of the core systems of the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xDudisx.5914 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Breaking the boon meta? Put bosses/mobs that copy boons from players every second. Also make them like a scourge: aoe corrupting boons into conditions every second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 The recent changes opened up the META quite a bit. The old "6/4 - support/DPS" balance is no longer needed. You might actually have a bit of an issue to be accepted into a squad if you are trying to join as the second support of "x class" right now. The only real exception being the chronomancers. The majority of the spots will still be taken by which ever DPS option is supposed to be best for the current encounters if you were going to go for the outmost efficiency which comes down to proper speed in the end. Don't really see why any further nerfs would be needed unless the goal was to completely remove those supports. Nor do I see why anyone would want mechanics which punish you for actually playing well. This includes boon uptime as much as dodges, blocks or positioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 > @Henry.5713 said: > The recent changes opened up the META quite a bit. The old "6/4 - support/DPS" balance is no longer needed. Yes. From 6/4 we went to 4/6 that's an obvious improvement but we need a bit more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Op isnt thinking things through and worse said nerfs would make the already op condi meta more broken youd now have boons that are only good used against you when corrupted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Henry.5713 said: > > The recent changes opened up the META quite a bit. The old "6/4 - support/DPS" balance is no longer needed. > > Yes. From 6/4 we went to 4/6 that's an obvious improvement but we need a bit more We dont really. What we need is for fb to be a viable solo quickness stacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Henry.5713 said: > > > The recent changes opened up the META quite a bit. The old "6/4 - support/DPS" balance is no longer needed. > > > > Yes. From 6/4 we went to 4/6 that's an obvious improvement but we need a bit more > > We dont really. What we need is for fb to be a viable solo quickness stacker. Do we really need that ? I mean of all the things i could think of the balance team needing to do that's on the bottom rung right there next to buffing ele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Henry.5713 said: > > > > The recent changes opened up the META quite a bit. The old "6/4 - support/DPS" balance is no longer needed. > > > > > > Yes. From 6/4 we went to 4/6 that's an obvious improvement but we need a bit more > > > > We dont really. What we need is for fb to be a viable solo quickness stacker. > > Do we really need that ? > > I mean of all the things i could think of the balance team needing to do that's on the bottom rung right there next to buffing ele. If not that then the meta is in a perfect state and what needs to happen is bugf the underperforming dps specs abit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 What's ur exp in raid mygamingid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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