Solaerin.8635 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 To everyone saying 'You don't want to gut core warrior by nerfing Last Stand': Core Warriors don't take Last Stand. They almost always take Cleansing Ire. Spellbreakers take Last Stand over Cleansing Ire because a.) their burst skills are always tier 1, so Cleansing Ire is weaker, and b.) Full Counter grants resistance, so they deal with conditions that way instead. If they nerf Last Stand, which they absolutely should because it's bad game design, it wouldn't have an effect on core warriors because it's not a trait they're likely to take. I think that changing Full Counter to require the damage to land in order to grant Adrenal Health/Resistance would be a positive change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 These would be my suggestions: **Spellbreaker** Full Counter: Radius reduced to 240. Only activates from Direct Attacks. Only triggers Full Counter/Burst traits on successful hit. Revenge Counter: Conditions copied reduced to 3. No longer grants Resistance. Slow Counter: Duration of Cripple and Slow reduced to 2 seconds. **Defense** Thick Skin: Threshhold increased to 90% health. Toughness bonus reduced to 150. Last Stand: ICD of Lesser Balanced Stance increased to 60 seconds. **Strength** Reckless Dodge: Also, blinds enemies hit for 3 seconds. Brave Stride: Stability gain increased to 3. Building Momentum: Also, grants 1 Stability for 3 seconds. Might Makes Right: Healing increased to 150. **Heals/Utilities/Elites** Natural Healing: Cast time reduced to 1 second. Stomp: Also, grants 1 Stability for 1 second on activation. Rampage: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentfir.7430 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I think the thing that needs to change is Last Stand, instead of giving lesser Balanced Stance, they should up the duration increase from the trait to 50% on stance skills and reduce the recharge. Revenge Counter can lose 5% of the 20% bonus and reduce the Condi copy to 3 or 2 considering Rev's Condi copy GM trait only copies 3 condis on legend swap. So removing Balanced Stance from Last Stand needs to happen. I don't think nerfing base FC should be on the bar, if you've ever played without Revenge Counter you'd know that FC can be blinded and doesn't really hit hard, and there have been cases I've had thieves interrupt FC with steal, or have been feared because boon corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 The only thing anet has to nerf for core warrior is last stand passive trait, just look at it. It's broken. Full counter nerfs: * Increase cd from 8 to 10 * Decrease radius from 300 to 200 * Remove resistance from revenge counter Also break enchantments needs a longer cd. People don't really notice but last stand is what makes spellbreakers semi immune to ccs thus you can't pressure them they will just outsustain you and if you add a 20 cd block, endure pain x2 heal signet almost perma resistance fc.. it's just too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caedmon.6798 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Now last stand is suddenly broken ? I just cant...lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossaber.8934 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > These would be my suggestions: > > **Spellbreaker** > Full Counter: Radius reduced to 240. Only activates from Direct Attacks. Only triggers Full Counter/Burst traits on successful hit. > Revenge Counter: Conditions copied reduced to 3. No longer grants Resistance. > Slow Counter: Duration of Cripple and Slow reduced to 2 seconds. > > **Defense** > Thick Skin: Threshhold increased to 90% health. Toughness bonus reduced to 150. > Last Stand: ICD of Lesser Balanced Stance increased to 60 seconds. > > **Strength** > Reckless Dodge: Also, blinds enemies hit for 3 seconds. > Brave Stride: Stability gain increased to 3. > Building Momentum: Also, grants 1 Stability for 3 seconds. > Might Makes Right: Healing increased to 150. > > **Heals/Utilities/Elites** > Natural Healing: Cast time reduced to 1 second. > Stomp: Also, grants 1 Stability for 1 second on activation. > Rampage: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds. > > I like almost everything you've suggested, but what define direct attack that trigger full counter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amityel.5324 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Solaerin.8635 said: > To everyone saying 'You don't want to gut core warrior by nerfing Last Stand': Core Warriors don't take Last Stand. They almost always take Cleansing Ire. Spellbreakers take Last Stand over Cleansing Ire because a.) their burst skills are always tier 1, so Cleansing Ire is weaker, and b.) Full Counter grants resistance, so they deal with conditions that way instead. If they nerf Last Stand, which they absolutely should because it's bad game design, it wouldn't have an effect on core warriors because it's not a trait they're likely to take. > > I think that changing Full Counter to require the damage to land in order to grant Adrenal Health/Resistance would be a positive change. i take last stand over cleasing ire on core war.......since you rarely land burst skills blocks invus dodges etc so its cleanse is not viable tbh unless you are in mass teamfight last stand is better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Chaith.8256 said: > > @Lighter.5631 said: > > they will nerf numbers.> @Armaelus.6120 said: > > > > @FtoPScrub.5476 said: > > > > Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives. > > > > > > AGREE !! > > > This passives have taken too much place in fighting. Players cannot do without it anymore. They no longer need to look at their lives because passives are activated by itself. Which makes the fights boring and too prédictable. We cannot even differentiate the good player from the bad player ! > > > > these passives becomes essential because thief and mesmer exist > > Definitely have a point there... however active defenses may prove to be just as effective vs. Thief/Mesmer with enough skill and firm grasp on mechanics. Nobody said to delete the defense from Engi/War No amount of skill is going to help you against a thief teleporting through a wall at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertep.2498 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @Chaith.8256 said: > > > @Lighter.5631 said: > > > they will nerf numbers.> @Armaelus.6120 said: > > > > > @FtoPScrub.5476 said: > > > > > Invuln style passives need to leave the game entirely including passive elixar s, endure pain, signet of stone, and instant reflexes. That does not necessarily mean a straight nerf, but rather a change to promote active gameplay rather than relying on passives. > > > > > > > > AGREE !! > > > > This passives have taken too much place in fighting. Players cannot do without it anymore. They no longer need to look at their lives because passives are activated by itself. Which makes the fights boring and too prédictable. We cannot even differentiate the good player from the bad player ! > > > > > > these passives becomes essential because thief and mesmer exist > > > > Definitely have a point there... however active defenses may prove to be just as effective vs. Thief/Mesmer with enough skill and firm grasp on mechanics. Nobody said to delete the defense from Engi/War > > No amount of skill is going to help you against a thief teleporting through a wall at you. same I can say about condis applying by scourge, if you arnt guard o which have cleanse on almost every skill or warrior with resistance there no amount of cleanses will help you against scourge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Crossaber.8934 said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > These would be my suggestions: > > > > **Spellbreaker** > > Full Counter: Radius reduced to 240. Only activates from Direct Attacks. Only triggers Full Counter/Burst traits on successful hit. > > Revenge Counter: Conditions copied reduced to 3. No longer grants Resistance. > > Slow Counter: Duration of Cripple and Slow reduced to 2 seconds. > > > > **Defense** > > Thick Skin: Threshhold increased to 90% health. Toughness bonus reduced to 150. > > Last Stand: ICD of Lesser Balanced Stance increased to 60 seconds. > > > > **Strength** > > Reckless Dodge: Also, blinds enemies hit for 3 seconds. > > Brave Stride: Stability gain increased to 3. > > Building Momentum: Also, grants 1 Stability for 3 seconds. > > Might Makes Right: Healing increased to 150. > > > > **Heals/Utilities/Elites** > > Natural Healing: Cast time reduced to 1 second. > > Stomp: Also, grants 1 Stability for 1 second on activation. > > Rampage: Cooldown reduced to 90 seconds. > > > > > > I like almost everything you've suggested, but what define direct attack that trigger full counter? An attack that inflicts immediate damage from a skill or trait, rather than a pulsing ground effect (the initial damage would trigger Full Counter, but the pulse damage wouldn't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman.5829 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Hold your horse John Wayne, are you really advocating for a nerf/rework of: Last Stand and endure pain? Great Scott! This is heavy! Those are the only traits that make warrior a warrior and the only traits that give the warrior a fighting chance to be in the front line in WvW and you want them gone? Great Scott! You might as well put a bag icon on top of every warrior player! Your suggestion is absurd and its never going to be implemented. Full counter is what is keeping us warrior alive in WvW serg fights. Anet finally does something good for the warrior to be competitive in WvW and you want it nerfed? Without full counter, warrior could die easily to the front line bomb because [endure pain is bugged](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/131086#Comment_131086) and it is not completely immune to damage. If you are in tier 1 where the fights in WvW get 60 vs 60 vs 60 you know what's like to be a front line warrior. I dare you to make a warrior and go to tier 1 fights without endure pain and Last Stand! I double dare you! Heck I will give you 100 gold if you make a video where you survive a bomb in tier 1 with out endure pain and Last stand. Heck, I triple dare you John Wayne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brannigan.9831 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Nice try playing Mr Reasonable but Warriors need more nerfs then that. Like 50-60% of classes in spvp right now are Scourges and Spell Breaker and there is a reason for that. They are too good. Good to the point where its going to take some nerfs that really hurt to bring them in line. You should be for it becuase there is a difference between nerfs that hurt and crushing a class. If they do the usual MO of ignoring stuff for months you'll end up getting crushed in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurrTheKing.8571 Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Hitman.5829 said: > Hold your horse John Wayne, are you really advocating for a nerf/rework of: Last Stand and endure pain? > Great Scott! This is heavy! Those are the only traits that make warrior a warrior and the only traits that give the warrior a fighting chance to be in the front line in WvW and you want them gone? Great Scott! You might as well put a bag icon on top of every warrior player! Your suggestion is absurd and its never going to be implemented. > > Full counter is what is keeping us warrior alive in WvW serg fights. Anet finally does something good for the warrior to be competitive in WvW and you want it nerfed? Without full counter, warrior could die easily to the front line bomb because [endure pain is bugged](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/131086#Comment_131086) and it is not completely immune to damage. If you are in tier 1 where the fights in WvW get 60 vs 60 vs 60 you know what's like to be a front line warrior. I dare you to make a warrior and go to tier 1 fights without endure pain and Last Stand! I double dare you! Heck I will give you 100 gold if you make a video where you survive a bomb in tier 1 with out endure pain and Last stand. > > Heck, I triple dare you John Wayne! So, you're fine with the fact that even a mediocre warrior can win 2v1s because we get significant duration of near total CC immunity without having to take a utility skill, and a trait that is probably the most powerful auto save in the game. This wasn't as bad before because once they were used up the Warrior was defenseless but now every 6 seconds you get what amounts to a mini version of both that also includes an attack and resistance. This is mostly from a PvP standpoint, because this is the PvP forum yet you're going on about WvW for some reason. I have a full set of ascended on my war and with the even less balanced rune and sigil options I bet you could even win 3v1. You also bring up the EP bug and yet I offered an option that will let you get bonus toughness and vitality in one use of Full Counter, bypassing the big altogether while not making it require 0 player input. Sounds like you just want things easy, partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @BurrTheKing.8571 said: > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > Hold your horse John Wayne, are you really advocating for a nerf/rework of: Last Stand and endure pain? > > Great Scott! This is heavy! Those are the only traits that make warrior a warrior and the only traits that give the warrior a fighting chance to be in the front line in WvW and you want them gone? Great Scott! You might as well put a bag icon on top of every warrior player! Your suggestion is absurd and its never going to be implemented. > > > > Full counter is what is keeping us warrior alive in WvW serg fights. Anet finally does something good for the warrior to be competitive in WvW and you want it nerfed? Without full counter, warrior could die easily to the front line bomb because [endure pain is bugged](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/131086#Comment_131086) and it is not completely immune to damage. If you are in tier 1 where the fights in WvW get 60 vs 60 vs 60 you know what's like to be a front line warrior. I dare you to make a warrior and go to tier 1 fights without endure pain and Last Stand! I double dare you! Heck I will give you 100 gold if you make a video where you survive a bomb in tier 1 with out endure pain and Last stand. > > > > Heck, I triple dare you John Wayne! > > So, you're fine with the fact that even a mediocre warrior can win 2v1s because we get significant duration of near total CC immunity without having to take a utility skill, and a trait that is probably the most powerful auto save in the game. This wasn't as bad before because once they were used up the Warrior was defenseless but now every 6 seconds you get what amounts to a mini version of both that also includes an attack and resistance. > > This is mostly from a PvP standpoint, because this is the PvP forum yet you're going on about WvW for some reason. I have a full set of ascended on my war and with the even less balanced rune and sigil options I bet you could even win 3v1. You also bring up the EP bug and yet I offered an option that will let you get bonus toughness and vitality in one use of Full Counter, bypassing the big altogether while not making it require 0 player input. > > Sounds like you just want things easy, partner. He always believes that Warrior is on the brink of being literally unplayable due to being too weak in every department. I mean hell he's made threads complaining about warrior mobility and honestly claimed necros had more mobility than war did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 My big problem with Last stand is it not only gives free stuff but it increases stance DURATION. I believe that's the biggest frustration of fighting warriors with the defensive line traited this way. The duration increase makes it so all the pulsing stances gain one additional pulse causing them to last 12 seconds instead of the already quite long enough 9. A warrior can actually train last stands together for it to last a full 24 seconds of meme time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurrTheKing.8571 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Caedmon.6798 said: > Now last stand is suddenly broken ? I just cant...lmao. It has always been the strongest auto stun break in the game, it keeps you from even being interrupted because the stability happens first. Then you become functionally immune for CC longer than any other class. Guard can have high stability uptime but there's gaps you can capitalise on. After Last Stand wears off, you still have 2 stun breaks and Full Counter every 6 seconds. You could change the ICD to have the same uptime percentage, but with it lasting only a few seconds there's an actual chance to CC them. Even then you would have to stop the damage at 50% because of Defy Pain, which saves the War where many other classes might die. Outside of Engi (which only happens at 25% and is often a death sentence), and Ranger (which is just as annoying as Defy Pain) have the same kind of auto save. I think Rev does too but only on Herald. Every other class will have to expend a skill which requires quick reaction times. I feel way more skilled getting picks with my Holo than my War. I get 2 passives that are basically the more balanced versions of what I have on War. If I screw up I'm dead, as it should be. Last Stand became a problem when Full Counter became a thing. We can't just ignore SB existing when balancing core Warrior. Nerfing just SB to the point that it's "balanced" means basically making it useless. I'd rather we get some skill bases reworks rather than getting needed into uselessness and going back to core War for the next 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juba.8406 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 You got a problem with Spellbreakers, OK i get it, that is fine with me. But why the hell are you nerfing Core Warrior ??!! Nerf Spellbreaker to the ground for all i care, Anet took years to get Core warrior balanced as of today only to get destroyed because you didn't like SB ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 nevermind ignore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertep.2498 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Juba.8406 said: > You got a problem with Spellbreakers, OK i get it, that is fine with me. > > But why the hell are you nerfing Core Warrior ??!! > > Nerf Spellbreaker to the ground for all i care, Anet took years to get Core warrior balanced as of today only to get destroyed because you didn't like SB ?! nah, because they did spellbreaker to get people call nerf core warrior on the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Vertep.2498 said: > > @Juba.8406 said: > > You got a problem with Spellbreakers, OK i get it, that is fine with me. > > > > But why the hell are you nerfing Core Warrior ??!! > > > > Nerf Spellbreaker to the ground for all i care, Anet took years to get Core warrior balanced as of today only to get destroyed because you didn't like SB ?! > > nah, because they did spellbreaker to get people call nerf core warrior on the way Meta Core Warrior has: Strength, Defence, Discipline Meta Spellbreaker has: Defence, Discipline, Spellbreaker If Defence needs nerfs because of Spellbreaker, more power can be shifted into Strength to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertep.2498 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Vertep.2498 said: > > > @Juba.8406 said: > > > You got a problem with Spellbreakers, OK i get it, that is fine with me. > > > > > > But why the hell are you nerfing Core Warrior ??!! > > > > > > Nerf Spellbreaker to the ground for all i care, Anet took years to get Core warrior balanced as of today only to get destroyed because you didn't like SB ?! > > > > nah, because they did spellbreaker to get people call nerf core warrior on the way > > Meta Core Warrior has: Strength, Defence, Discipline > Meta Spellbreaker has: Defence, Discipline, Spellbreaker > > If Defence needs nerfs because of Spellbreaker, more power can be shifted into Strength to compensate. I have not said to nerf core warrior but I just joked it was Anet plan to creat spellbreaker on that way where everyone will call to nerf core warrior because of this new shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Changing the cooldown on FC always felt like a weird solution to me. Full counter is considered a burst skill and all burst skills have an 8s cooldown. Changing this one particular seems strange, but that doesn't mean ANET won't do it obviously. But IMO if you are going to change the FC cooldown you might as well no longer make it a burst skill, but that completely destroys spellbreaker. IMO, a fair change that wouldn't be a total nerf bat would be to remove the portion of Attacker's Insight that makes full counter refresh other burst skills. That would reduce SB's damage pressure but not being able to chain together a bunch of burst skills (especially with Loss Aversion), and it would reduce its sustain by maintaining less adrenal health. Maybe that alone isn't enough but it seems like a fair change to me versus just a huge nerf bat on cooldowns or other things people have suggested. Though ANET is known for the nerf bat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterPeanut.9746 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Vertep.2498 said: > > > @Juba.8406 said: > > > You got a problem with Spellbreakers, OK i get it, that is fine with me. > > > > > > But why the hell are you nerfing Core Warrior ??!! > > > > > > Nerf Spellbreaker to the ground for all i care, Anet took years to get Core warrior balanced as of today only to get destroyed because you didn't like SB ?! > > > > nah, because they did spellbreaker to get people call nerf core warrior on the way > > Meta Core Warrior has: Strength, Defence, Discipline > Meta Spellbreaker has: Defence, Discipline, Spellbreaker > > If Defence needs nerfs because of Spellbreaker, more power can be shifted into Strength to compensate. The meta spellbreaker build could very easily shift though. The reason Disp/Def/SB is so strong is the prevalence of boon heavy support classes (i.e. firebrand) and very heavy condi pressure. Against a more power oriented meta, Strength/Def/SB is already way better in its current state, let alone with any changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferus.3165 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 to the contrary, i like those skills alot, because then i can actually take something different for my utilities. You know those traits are the only reason warrior can run with something else then 3 stances all the time as utility skills. people always come up with the dumbest solutions to their own problems. erasing spellbraker just because you cannot spam him to death while being in melee range is not necessary. Warrior without sustain is what we had before pof and what we had after hot in the first pvp seasons. It sucks, and while i have to agree that passive skills traits makes playing a class easier it does not warrant a nerf. core warrior had those skills basicly untouched since forever. If a spellbreaker can't capture a point from a daredevil or a mirage before he dies, it is a useless spec. And yes daredevil and mirage shit on sb when the player is actually good and is not just spamming skills like 90% of you do. Spellbreaker can't hold a point in a 2vs1 for an extended amount of time vs good players, once his immunites and shieldblock are on cd the warrior is dead. it's just that most players get kited around by the warrior, because they are unfamiliar with the terrain and the warrior can heal up again. That also does not work vs good players, but i see that happen in silver and gold all the time and even sometimes in platinum. triple stance warrior is the most boring shit in the game, but well with what most of you here are suggesting warrior will not be played in wvw and pvp at all^^ luckily warrior has that one trait that makes him good in fractals and raids and that is ps otherwise warrior would probably completly vanish from all gamemodes^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juba.8406 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > If Defence needs nerfs because of Spellbreaker, more power can be shifted into Strength to compensate. Then cry about how STR/DISC/SB is OP ?! If you want SB nerfed then * **Spoiler Alert** * Nerf Spellbreaker trait line, Leave Core Warrior alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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