nsleep.7839 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > Same. It's not only the raid release schedule, if you're into doing group content fractals also have a terribly slow release schedule not to mention he Chaos Isles was a fiasco imo. While I like unique encounters but I don't know how much it's worth to slow down all releases that much just to make every encounter have new unique mechanics coded into them. This extremely slow stream of releases is slowly making me play less and less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > Like ESO and its DLC that you buy....um, no thanks! But then again, if it meant more/newer content faster and price was decent, just maybe! :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Joxer.6024 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > > Like ESO and its DLC that you buy....um, no thanks! > But then again, if it meant more/newer content faster and price was decent, just maybe! :3 Well, since I read that BDO was an RNGhell type of game (similar to Trove, Not in the mood to deal with that), so I never played BDO, as such I am not sure how that was handled. (I was thinking along the lines of how [DDO](https://www.ddo.com/en/game/adventure-packs "DDO ") handles it) But, yes, that would be the idea, it sells and thus they will make more of it. Oops.. edit.. I just saw you said ESO. and nope.. haven't played that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > If I recall right, only about 2-3% of the Anet employees are working on raids. I do not have the exact numbers of course, but I bet at least 10% of the population enjoys raids. So increasing the raid dev team by 2-3x seems like a fair idea to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > I have no idea, but, it seems like a better idea to me, to sell the raids directly, and have them support their own development, then have Anet just kinda 'guess' what people want. If that works.. they could sell additional Fractal Levels.. like say.. 100 - 150.. for example.. with several custom maps. The advantage with selling "Adventure Packs" like living story and the such, is that what sells is what gets the most development, as opposed to trying to sell an outfit in the store to fund the next raid wing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > That goes for everything is this game. I prob paid for the wvw update we had pre pof and i rarely if ever do wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Astralporing.1957 said: > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > Found this on reddit: BGDM is fairly popular, at the moment there are 16,000(!!!) active users using BGDM, that means users that have been active within a period of one week, the BGDM server has 2k concurrent users on average with peaks of 4-5k users at which point the data sent/received by the server is an astounding 80MB/50MB respectively. Link: It's a 6 months old post by the creator of BGDM. 16k active users within a week and 4-5k concurrent users at peak time (probably Monday when Raids reset) The game had maximum 460k concurrent users at some point during the first year (with those 3.5 million sales) Link: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-the-first-year/ That's nearly 1% (0.86%) of the RELEASE concurrent players. I wonder how many concurrent players the game has now, to compare with the 4-5k peak BGDM users. I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > > > > Found this on reddit: > BGDM is fairly popular, at the moment there are 16,000(!!!) active users using BGDM, that means users that have been active within a period of one week, the BGDM server has 2k concurrent users on average with peaks of 4-5k users at which point the data sent/received by the server is an astounding 80MB/50MB respectively. > Link: > > It's a 6 months old post by the creator of BGDM. 16k active users within a week and 4-5k concurrent users at peak time (probably Monday when Raids reset) > The game had maximum 460k concurrent users at some point during the first year (with those 3.5 million sales) > Link: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-the-first-year/ > That's nearly 1% (0.86%) of the RELEASE concurrent players. I wonder how many concurrent players the game has now, to compare with the 4-5k peak BGDM users. > > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) I think that using the concurrent users as a parameter is not a good way to find a correct answer. You can have 5 k concurrent raiders for 4 hours and then 0 concurent raiders for the rest of 20 hours. And you can have 460k concurrent players for 10 hours and then 400k concurrent players for the rest of 14 hours. Take into consideration the repeating raids in different days (either for helping a friend or because failure in the precedent day) and you will have a very non reliable method to compare the raiders and the total number of players. I remember a statistic released by ANet after the HoT launch stating that they had a number of +3,1 millions unique logins during a month. So, 16k users a week x 4 weeks = 64 k over a month. Compared with +3 millions that means around 2,1% of the total number of players. It seems that the number of raiders is even smaller than what the forums say. But, taking into account the fact that GW2 lost players (non raiders mostly), I tend to agree with you that 16k now represent a larger percentage from the playerbase than 1 year ago . I remember I predicted this - in its desire to raise the percentage of the raiders, ANet will take any required measure to banish the non-raiding population from the game :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Cristalyan.5728 said: > I think that using the concurrent users as a parameter is not a good way to find a correct answer. You can have 5 k concurrent raiders for 4 hours and then 0 concurent raiders for the rest of 20 hours. And you can have 460k concurrent players for 10 hours and then 400k concurrent players for the rest of 14 hours. Take into consideration the repeating raids in different days (either for helping a friend or because failure in the precedent day) and you will have a very non reliable method to compare the raiders and the total number of players. Wow slow down there. I'm comparing the number of concurrent raiders with total concurrent players because an "active" player cannot be measured in a game without a subscription. Second, if the game had 400 k concurrent players now they'd announce it with lots of fanfare. You should check your source of that ~3.1 million accounts. I have this one: http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/ >“Guild Wars 2 has proven pretty resilient historically, with about 1.5 million monthly actives,” SuperData Research CEO Joost van Dreunen says. “Since it switched to free-to-play in late August, Guild Wars 2’s monthly active user base has doubled to 3.1 million (October 2015). First, it's SuperData not Arenanet that said 3.1 million accounts they are rather known to be wrong... I'm taking the entire 3.1 million claim by SuperData with a grain of salt, so should you. Here you can find the bullshit of SuperData: >What’s new to the lists is Guild Wars 2: It showed up this month as #4 for “top-grossing premium PC games by revenue” behind Overwatch, CS:GO, and Minecraft. Whoa. Apparently the new seasonal content was a big draw. This is from July 2016. If you check the Guild Wars 2 revenue from July 2016 (that's Q3 2016) it was still dropping... and more importantly, other NCsoft MMORPGS were doing better than Guild Wars 2 yet they are not on the list! Either Arenanet is hiding some revenue somewhere that is not telling NCsoft about, or SuperData is wrong. Second, you can find this (it's by Peter Warman, CEO of research firm Newzoo, another "research firm"): >Warman says Guild Wars 2 has remained a Top 20 game streamed on Twitch with spikes around big announcements like the recent Heart of Thorns expansion. Guild Wars 2 was never in Top 20 streamed games on Twitch (and never will be). You can check here if you don't believe me: https://newzoo.com/insights/rankings/top-games-twitch/ So these "research firms" are known to be super wrong. Also I'd be happy to know how SuperData (I repeat not Arenanet) figured how many active players Guild Wars 2 had at that point, and which player they called "active". Third, it's clear that there were 1.5 million monthly actives before free to play and the other 1.6 million were free to play players. Note that it is before the release of Heart of Thorns. So before the expansion hit, the game had 1.5 million actives, out of these, how many bought Heart of Thorns to even have access to Raids? In truth, the 3 million number means absolutely nothing and it is irrelevant. But the 460k concurrent users (at release, said by Arenanet) and the 4-5k concurrent BGDM users (said by the developer of BGDM) is hard indisputable data. Who is an active player is up for debate, but who is logging in at the same is not. Edited to add the SuperData bullshit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Xar.1387 said: > Most players need big rewards for doing hard things. Right now we got e.g legendary armor which seems to be a good prize. But what's next? So you don't actually want to do difficult content, you just want to get more rewards than other players. This entitlement is why most people don't take raiders seriously. :( Please stop that. Not all of us are this greedy, okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > > > > Found this on reddit: > BGDM is fairly popular, at the moment there are 16,000(!!!) active users using BGDM, that means users that have been active within a period of one week, the BGDM server has 2k concurrent users on average with peaks of 4-5k users at which point the data sent/received by the server is an astounding 80MB/50MB respectively. > Link: > > It's a 6 months old post by the creator of BGDM. 16k active users within a week and 4-5k concurrent users at peak time (probably Monday when Raids reset) > The game had maximum 460k concurrent users at some point during the first year (with those 3.5 million sales) > Link: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-the-first-year/ > That's nearly 1% (0.86%) of the RELEASE concurrent players. I wonder how many concurrent players the game has now, to compare with the 4-5k peak BGDM users. > > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) especially that most "raiders" use multi accounts because of weekly rewards, also this number is only to get lower the more people farm their legendary armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > especially that most "raiders" use multi accounts because of weekly rewards, also this number is only to get lower the more people farm their legendary armor How can a raider be "concurrently" on, on multiple accounts? That's why I used the concurrency values and not "active" numbers because active numbers are useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > > > > That goes for everything is this game. I prob paid for the wvw update we had pre pof and i rarely if ever do wvw. Ya can't sell a "balance patch" as no one would buy a nerf. But I could see a WvW Adventure pack, with additional maps, reward tracks, vendors, and the like. The main problem I see, is how to do that without breaking up the existing system. It would kind of need to be, where everyone that wanted to WvW would need to buy the upgrade, unlike PvE, where they can separate the zones, WvW does not have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meeflak.9714 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Talindra.4958 said: > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > @Sephylon.4938 said: > > > We'll see once the next raid wings are released. My guess is new leg armor skins and some new wepon skins or something along those lines. > > > > Unfortunately they said they have no intention on making new legendary armor sets > > No intention of making new leg armour doesn't mean no intention to improve current to make it more shinny and attractive right :p :p :) We can dream =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) That would make the idea of "Raid packs" even more supportable, as if there are more people doing raids then we might first think, they could very easy become their own self sustaining content, and this receive more/faster/better development. Which would be a win for everyone that wants to enjoy raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > > > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > > > > > > > That goes for everything is this game. I prob paid for the wvw update we had pre pof and i rarely if ever do wvw. > > Ya can't sell a "balance patch" as no one would buy a nerf. > > But I could see a WvW Adventure pack, with additional maps, reward tracks, vendors, and the like. The main problem I see, is how to do that without breaking up the existing system. It would kind of need to be, where everyone that wanted to WvW would need to buy the upgrade, unlike PvE, where they can separate the zones, WvW does not have that. My point is moneybwent to updates and content aditions to modes i dont play. Saying its bad or not worth for only one part of the game is unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) > > That would make the idea of "Raid packs" even more supportable, as if there are more people doing raids then we might first think, they could very easy become their own self sustaining content, and this receive more/faster/better development. Which would be a win for everyone that wants to enjoy raids. I agree. But what kind of guarantee do we have that money spent on a Raid pack would go on further Raid development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) > > That would make the idea of "Raid packs" even more supportable, as if there are more people doing raids then we might first think, they could very easy become their own self sustaining content, and this receive more/faster/better development. Which would be a win for everyone that wants to enjoy raids. see how good wildstar is doing after they assumed hardcore players gonna fund the game for themselves; raids in gw2 would have never happened if not for the whales who funded them and keep them alive even though the raiding community is most ungrateful in this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. Probaby means it'll be a 3+ wing raid, released quickly together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > I think the amount of Raiders in the game is way higher than these forums say :) > > > > That would make the idea of "Raid packs" even more supportable, as if there are more people doing raids then we might first think, they could very easy become their own self sustaining content, and this receive more/faster/better development. Which would be a win for everyone that wants to enjoy raids. > > I agree. But what kind of guarantee do we have that money spent on a Raid pack would go on further Raid development? because.. companies like money, and will make what sells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Fenom.9457 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > > Probaby means it'll be a 3+ wing raid, released quickly together A raid1 release schedule would be decent ye. But Judging from this w8 time i just dont see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Xar.1387 said: > Raids are the best thing that has ever happened in PvE of GW2. Finally we got challenging endgame PvE content. > But I'm wondering what's the future of this mode. I mean. Most players need big rewards for doing hard things. Right now we got e.g legendary armor which seems to be a good prize. But what's next? > > In the most mmorpg's its easy, cause they regularly add eq with better and better stats. And players feel rewarded cause they gain unique items. But GW2 works differently - this game isnt able to do it this way. So what awaits us? > raids should be A) spawned in new WvW map so u actually have to fight for it and not fight brainless NPC B) random spawn window like it died yesterday at 20:00 > spawn tomorrow +- 4h so could spawn between 16:00 till 24:00. C) basically i dont give a rats ass about raids i just wanna kill people and see them rage about it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > @Astralporing.1957 said: > > > > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > > > Rewards wont matter if a new wing takes a year to come out. > > > > > > Glad I am not the only one who is annoyed by the slow release shedule. They said they could make upto 6 raid wings per year. The reality seems to be more like 1, if lucky 2 per year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IIRC, I thought they said something more along the lines of 1 every six months, but none the less, just because they 'could' do something, does not mean they will do it. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe if they sold the raid wings as their own private content, like a Mini-Expansion, that might inspire faster/more development. > > > > > > > > > I doubt there's enough raiders to pay for raids though. In the end it's mostly paid for by the money from people that do _not_ raid (or raid, but not consider that content to be essential enough to specifically pay for it). > > > > > > > > > > That goes for everything is this game. I prob paid for the wvw update we had pre pof and i rarely if ever do wvw. > > > > Ya can't sell a "balance patch" as no one would buy a nerf. > > > > But I could see a WvW Adventure pack, with additional maps, reward tracks, vendors, and the like. The main problem I see, is how to do that without breaking up the existing system. It would kind of need to be, where everyone that wanted to WvW would need to buy the upgrade, unlike PvE, where they can separate the zones, WvW does not have that. > > My point is moneybwent to updates and content aditions to modes i dont play. Saying its bad or not worth for only one part of the game is unfair. Dude, if it meant that WvW got more love.. I'd buy packs for people that don't even play this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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