What's the future of raids in GW2?

[TexZero.7910]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > Also if we use your logic here we may as well be calling it DDO6 considering the breadth of single player games like Icewind Dale, NWN/NWN2 that DDO steals from.

> >

>

> Did you know those games had Totally different developers?

 

Does it matter ?

 

You wanted to compare CoRPG to MMO, so why is comparing your tRPG to your fabled MMO any worse an analogy when we're talking about sequels and original concepts.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > @TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

> > > > > > If the quality of these dlc raids is even remotely the same then they are just not worth the money. If they are high quality and are released frequently then it will segregate tiny community that is already pretty much dead.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ok fair enough.. Well, then you all need to come to terms with the fact that if they are not worth the money to buy, then they are not worth the money to make.

> > > >

> > > > Keep in mind raids were funded and are kept alive by whales. Raiding community wouldnt be able to fund single dev payment

> > >

> > > And where is the proof for that statment other than your hate for raids?

> >

> > Raid rewards are not monetized.

>

> Raids need the current expansion to play the next raids. So they actually cost money. Unlike fractals, WvW or sPvP.

> My point still stands. It's just pure hate on your part.

 

Yeah. You could play PvP without elite specs, i suppose. Just don't place too much hope on actually being competitive.

[Joxer.6024]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > ESO has gone FTP but you have to pay for the DLC, i.e. raids and such.

>

> The "DLC" of ESO has more than Raids.

>

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > However.. I have read enough. Pretty much when all ya came out and said you wouldn't pay for more raids.. well.. that right there.. answers what's the future of raids.

>

> Why would anyone pay for something double the price?

> Make the Living World paid, make the new zones paid (separately), make the festivals paid, make every new collection paid, make jumping puzzles paid. How do you think that would work?

 

That's why I said "and such".

[Miellyn.6847]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > > > > @TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

> > > > > > > > > If the quality of these dlc raids is even remotely the same then they are just not worth the money. If they are high quality and are released frequently then it will segregate tiny community that is already pretty much dead.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ok fair enough.. Well, then you all need to come to terms with the fact that if they are not worth the money to buy, then they are not worth the money to make.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Keep in mind raids were funded and are kept alive by whales. Raiding community wouldnt be able to fund single dev payment

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And where is the proof for that statment other than your hate for raids?

> > > > >

> > > > > Raid rewards are not monetized.

> > > >

> > > > Raids need the current expansion to play the next raids. So they actually cost money. Unlike fractals, WvW or sPvP.

> > > > My point still stands. It's just pure hate on your part.

> > >

> > > current expansion would be created and sold even if raids never existed, raids would never happen if not for whole community funding this mode

> >

> > Raids were advertised as an expansion feature in HoT. And they get content the same way living story works with the current expansion. They are not founded by whales.

>

> Everything is funded by them. If anet made raids into seperate wallet funded by raiders only you would never see new raid again

 

So you are one of the whales and feel betrayed because you can't play them?

 

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Miellyn.6847 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > > @TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

> > > > > > > If the quality of these dlc raids is even remotely the same then they are just not worth the money. If they are high quality and are released frequently then it will segregate tiny community that is already pretty much dead.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ok fair enough.. Well, then you all need to come to terms with the fact that if they are not worth the money to buy, then they are not worth the money to make.

> > > > >

> > > > > Keep in mind raids were funded and are kept alive by whales. Raiding community wouldnt be able to fund single dev payment

> > > >

> > > > And where is the proof for that statment other than your hate for raids?

> > >

> > > Raid rewards are not monetized.

> >

> > Raids need the current expansion to play the next raids. So they actually cost money. Unlike fractals, WvW or sPvP.

> > My point still stands. It's just pure hate on your part.

>

> Yeah. You could play PvP without elite specs, i suppose. Just don't place too much hope on actually being competitive.

 

There are actually competitive builds without elite specialisations. Not for all classes but they exist.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > Everything is funded by them. If anet made raids into seperate wallet funded by raiders only you would never see new raid again

>

> How about making all living world releases paid? Would we see any of those again?

> How about making jumping puzzles paid?

> World Bosses? Meta events? Collections? New mounts? Guild Halls? New Elite specs?

 

It's all the same. We pay for the game as a whole. I bought expansions, I paid for raids as part of my purchase even though I would never pay single penny for them. There is no way you can cut content into pieces and expect it to be funded only by players interested in it. Because when raid is created (because it's example in this thread) they take resources from whole game - artists, designers, voice actors, coders etc. There is **no way** you can fund raid only by paying for raid. You would need to fund whole studio for this. The game is better, raids included, when its funded from one wallet and anet decides where money should go. The moment you decided to seperate this into pieces - like pvp, wvw, raid, etc - every one of this content dies because most of funds is coming from gemstore. And whales by definition will never put their money on content like raid or pvp.

[STIHL.2489]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > However.. I have read enough. Pretty much when all ya came out and said you wouldn't pay for more raids.. well.. that right there.. answers what's the future of raids.

>

> Why would anyone pay for something double the price?

> Make the Living World paid, make the new zones paid (separately), make the festivals paid, make every new collection paid, make jumping puzzles paid. How do you think that would work?

 

LOL .. when you have to stoop to overly dramatic stuff like that, the discussion is lost.

 

To use a more related example, The people asking for new Dungeons to be added made it clear they would pay for them, often times being very upfront about it, whereas, the people who want raids openly admit they are not worth paying for.

 

I am sure that won't settle anything for you, but it should give you a nice wake up call as to would be a better ROI for their money.

 

"Raids are not worth paying for"

 

Now you know their future.

[STIHL.2489]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > Also if we use your logic here we may as well be calling it DDO6 considering the breadth of single player games like Icewind Dale, NWN/NWN2 that DDO steals from.

> > >

> >

> > Did you know those games had Totally different developers?

>

> Does it matter ?

>

> You wanted to compare CoRPG to MMO, so why is comparing your tRPG to your fabled MMO any worse an analogy when we're talking about sequels and original concepts.

 

If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would know that Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights are Forgotten Realms, DDO is Ebberon, totally different universe, which they used just so they would not be building off the existing stuff like Icewind Dale or the R.A. books, By why let little things like truth get in the way of such wonderful hyperbola,

 

Anyway, since I have no idea what, if any, point you had, beyond showing that you know nothing about DnD, or the Lore, or any of the games you are talking about, so I can only wager this some lame lash out sue to butthurt after admitting that Raids were not worth spending money on, and realizing how bad that looks when you are fussing at Anet that they are not spending enough money and resources on them, so you are throwing out some hackneyed red herring just to continue fighting.. I guess .. because you want to win or something.. but you already lost when you said raids were not worth paying for.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

>The moment you decided to seperate this into pieces - like pvp, wvw, raid, etc - every one of this content dies because most of funds is coming from gemstore.

 

So no content will ever survive if they sell it separately. That's what I was trying to say, it's not only Raids that cannot survive with this system, it's everything.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> "Raids are not worth paying for"

 

And anything else is? Way to dodge the question btw.

[STIHL.2489]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > "Raids are not worth paying for"

>

> And anything else is? Way to dodge the question btw.

 

 

Unlike you.. I already said I would pay for more dungeons, and I had to buy Living Season. So yah.. other stuff is. At least in my book.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> >The moment you decided to seperate this into pieces - like pvp, wvw, raid, etc - every one of this content dies because most of funds is coming from gemstore.

>

> So no content will ever survive if they sell it separately. That's what I was trying to say, it's not only Raids that cannot survive with this system, it's everything.

 

Yeah, I think we agree on that.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> You say openly that what you want more of, is not worth paying for, yet you expect Anet to pay for it (it ain't free to make it)

 

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > Also if we use your logic here we may as well be calling it DDO6 considering the breadth of single player games like Icewind Dale, NWN/NWN2 that DDO steals from.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Did you know those games had Totally different developers?

> >

> > Does it matter ?

> >

> > You wanted to compare CoRPG to MMO, so why is comparing your tRPG to your fabled MMO any worse an analogy when we're talking about sequels and original concepts.

>

> If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would know that Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights are Forgotten Realms, DDO is Ebberon, totally different universe, which they used just so they would not be building off the existing stuff like Icewind Dale or the R.A. books, By why let little things like truth get in the way of such wonderful hyperbola,

>

> Anyway, since I have no idea what, if any, point you had, beyond showing that you know nothing about DnD, or the Lore, or any of the games you are talking about, so I can only wager this some lame lash out sue to kitten after admitting that Raids were not worth spending money on, and realizing how bad that looks when you are fussing at Anet that they are not spending enough money and resources on them, so you are throwing out some hackneyed red herring just to continue fighting.. I guess .. because you want to win or something.. but you already lost when you said raids were not worth paying for.

 

They are not worth paying for exactly because anet is not spending enough resources on them. They are too mediocre to be standalone.

[merforga.4731]

Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @merforga.4731 said:

> Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

 

Is that number public by any chance?

[zealex.9410]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > > > > > > I'm going to disagree with all of you, because I have played games that sold Large Scale DLC, like expansions, and Smaller "Adventure Pack" style DLC.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Single player games and MMORPGs are very different

> > > > >

> > > > > Dude.. **I AM talking about MMO's**..

> > > >

> > > > Like? Which MMORPG added Raids and only Raids as DLC?

> > >

> > > Dungeons and Dragons Online.

> > >

> > > Was that your only question?

> >

> > Dungeons and Dragons Online is free to play isn't it?

> > And the adventure packs are how they do their content, they look more like Living World episodes, like selling Living World episodes for cash (or rather gems, because you can buy them with in-game currency too) which is exactly what Arenanet is doing too.

>

> So is this game. You pay for an expansion box that merely brings open world PvE maps. The raids have never come with the expansion box, and neither have fractals.

 

Raid have come with the expansion box. I cannot play w1 and 2 if i dont own the box you see.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> Raid have come with the expansion box. I cannot play w1 and 2 if i dont own the box you see.

 

Yes. Raiders HAVE to buy the next expansions every time they want to see new Raids, so technically Raiders are already paying for their Raids.

On the other hand, Fractal runners, dungeon runners (if any exist), PvP and WvW players, farmers (SW and elsewhere), TP Barons do not have to buy the next expansion to continue enjoying their game.

[Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489]

Just mentioning that if a raid is sold as a stand alone purchase everyone who bought it would expect to be able to complete it. Whether that is a reasonable assumption or not is irrelevant, but I think the result would be unhappy players in both the "hardcore" crowd who wants a challenge and the "casual" crowd who want to experience a raid kill, and were willing to pay for an entry point.

[merforga.4731]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @merforga.4731 said:

> > Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

>

> Is that number public by any chance?

 

Nope =x

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @merforga.4731 said:

> Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

 

pretty sad when you think it's probably 5-10% of all active players

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @merforga.4731 said:

> > Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

>

> pretty sad when you think it's probably 5-10% of all active players

 

Got any data to back that up?

[Sykper.6583]

Current Raiders in game is significant enough for Arenanet's numbers to continue making more.

 

What any of us perceive as a good number is invalid. Hell it could be 0.0001% in reality and if Arenanet's logic says that's good enough, it's good enough period. Naturally, hyperbole is used here to make the point.

 

I'm just waiting to see if they can improve upon what they've learned from the first set of raids, and what they've said so far is _promising_ but we will have to see.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @merforga.4731 said:

> > > Regarding raiding population, we have a current unique count of just over 25k game accounts across all uploaded logs on GW2Raidar. Suffice to to say the raiding community is still pretty significant.

> >

> > pretty sad when you think it's probably 5-10% of all active players

>

> Got any data to back that up?

 

It's expected "hardcore" community level for most mmos. So I said probably as Anet will never tell us exact numbers.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> It's expected "hardcore" community level for most mmos. So I said probably as Anet will never tell us exact numbers.

 

There is no such thing as "expected" level. So you are saying that if GW2Raidar players were 5k they would be 5-10% of the community, if they were 10k, the same, if they were 50k, the same. I wonder now, how many players were active on GW2Raidar 2 months ago? 1 month ago? Were they still 5-10% of the community?

We'll see how many people will be registered on GW2Raidar in 3 months from now, 30k? 50k? I guess they would still be 5-10% of the community because the 5-10% remains constant no matter what actual numbers appear. I also wonder how many players Raid yet don't have an account on GW2Raidar, if the numbers of GW2Raidar players are 5-10% then the total number of Raiders is what? 10-20%?

 

Aside from all that, 25k loyal players that will buy every expansion Arenanet releases in the future, to get access to the content they like, is not a small number at all.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> Aside from all that, 25k loyal players that will buy every expansion Arenanet releases in the future, to get access to the content they like, is not a small number at all.

 

For an AAA game? It's a disaster. Anyway, calling raiders loyal by default is a bit of a stretch. I am loyal player, or whoever funds this game for 5 years. If this person is a raider, cool. But seasonal heroes that just came here only to raid are not loyal community. And as we agreed before, there is no way these 25k players (let's tripple this amount assuming most raiders don't use raidar - so 75k) can fund raiding by themselves, not mentioning whole game.

 

The only important player is loyal whale. I'm not one, you're most likely not one either but we all profit from them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> For an AAA game? It's a disaster.

 

True but it's the only number we have. GW2Raidar is very new, we'll see how many use it in 6 months or 1 year, or sooner, when the next Raid is released.

 

> But seasonal heroes that just came here only to raid are not loyal community.

 

Those "seasonal heroes" that Raid play the game way more, and more actively than what the casual majority does, playing once per month, playing 30 minutes per week or any of the short that the most casual players play. Although it's assumed, without data, that the "hardcore" players of a game are a minority in terms of numbers, it's also safe to assume, without any data, that the hardcore population has the vast majority of the play time in any given game. The 10% has 90% of the playtime while the 90% has 10% of the playtime. A game without players that play every day, and every hour, to make it populated is a dead game, despite the "active numbers", especially when you count "active numbers" someone who logs at least once per month, which is a useless player anyway.

 

Raiders ARE a loyal community, as long as Arenanet continues to make Raids of the quality expected, then these players will continue buying any expansion Arenanet releases, even if the expansion itself is absolute garbage. On the other hand, the non-Raiders will simply leave the game and not buy an expansion if the expansion isn't to their taste.

 

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> The only important player is loyal whale. I'm not one, you're most likely not one either but we all profit from them.

 

Those whales need someone to play with. If the game has only the casual players that log-in once every century, then the whales won't have anyone to play with and leave. Whales + ACTIVE players is what is important. And by ACTIVE I mean those who log every day, for multiple hours, not that guy who logs once per month.