A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Khisanth.2948 said:

> >

> > The person hanging back is providing minimal contribution but still more than the dead person. While those 5 people are reviving the dead person the dead person is effectively doing negative damage that would make it worse than leeching.

>

> The "negative damage" is compensated by having the dead come back faster than using a waypoint. That is bonus damage that wouldn't otherwise be had.

 

No its not especially when its 100% faster for them to just waypoint and walk back as opposed to having 1-2 people stop fighting and then rez. Instead you've now taken 3 people out of the fight instead of 1.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @Ashen.2907 said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > > > They want to be rezzed, obviously.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So you mean they want to leech. Wanting to be revived isn't a valid argument when it would take them less time to get back to the action if they ported rather than wait for a slow revive.

> > > > >

> > > > > Wanting to be revived and wanting to leech are not the same thing. If they wanted to leech they would hang back at maximum distance and auto attack. This isn't an "argument"; it is what they're doing. Period. It doesn't take less time to revive than run back, because if they get 5 or so people doing the rezzing then the fallen get back up pretty quickly.

> > > >

> > > > Wanting to be revived and wanting to leech are the exact same thing, period. This isn't an argument, it's what they do, leech.

> > >

> > > Yeah because as I mentioned before in my case.

> > > Many times I waypoint back to the area, when I see people being piggish and not helping anyone and just say "Waypoint back" and never help people downed? Yeah, if because now I refuse to waypoint because not a single person is helping, then call me a leech.

> > > I've heard that while dead it just makes things harder as enemies and bosses and other things scale based on the bodies in the area. IF people so much in a rush to refuse to help a down person to the point they now are dead... then you know what? NOW it will be harder to help me up because no one helped me while downed and now need a few to help me revive.

> > > I'm not going to make your life easier because you refuse to be a team player.

> > > I revive downed people when I can to the point at times I might get downed myself, but in the end the ones I help usually help me back up too. That is how you're supposed to play and not only think about yourself.

> > > Would say something I've heard Charrs say but something tell me even quoting a Charr here would just get me some warning so I'll just say... let me leech until revived then I can help out.

> > > Thank you.

> >

> > If you are willing to purposefully sabotage the team's goal(s) why should they help you?

> >

> > As to how people are, "supposed to play," I don't think that you get to decide that for anyone other than yourself.

>

> And you decide how I'm supposed to play? Hypocritical much?

 

You might want to reread my post. At no point did I tell you how you are supposed to play.

 

If you want to lie there....feel free.

If you want to WP and run back....feel free.

If you want to put a fist through your monitor because, yet again, you died to a one-shot kill mechanic whose tell you could not see due to visual clutter....go for it.

Do what you want.

Do what makes you happy.

Have fun.

 

Just don't, necessarily, expect others to help you if you are choosing to sabotage their efforts and goals. I mean, I will rez you, old school GW1 instincts tell me to get the teammate up ASAP, but I don't owe you that rez, even if I am doing it.

 

 

Edit: and to clarify, I do not like the idea of the fee. I wouldn't mind seeing participation metrics getting a rework though.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > Wanting to be revived and wanting to leech are the exact same thing, period. This isn't an argument, it's what they do, leech.

>

> It's not. They sincerely believe that the best way to do the event is to wait for a rez if they die.

>

 

Actually it is the same, being dead and not using a waypoint = leeching, there is no other way around it. If they believe that then not only they are hurting the team effort and being selfish leeches but they also ignore chat asking (politely often) for the dead to revive.

I don't understand what your problem is for spending ~2s to go to a waypoint that is less than a minute away. Why wait to be revived in the middle of combat which can mean more people getting killed trying to revive, scaling up the event to make it harder for everyone else.

Is 2s worth being so selfish, thinking only about yourself?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

>

> Maybe I don't have the piggish mentality as those that does raids or high end fractals as I don't do raids or high end fractals.

 

We just rez people in high end fractals. If somebody just goes /gg the moment another player is defeated, we kick that person and get somebody who will actually try.

 

[Seera.5916]

Is it a problem? Yes.

 

Is taxing everyone who spends too much time dead right? No.

 

1. How would you code it to be events only? What if you died in the radius of a very simple collection event and decided to sort your inventory?

2. What if the player had decided that they were tired of the event and wanted to waypoint off somewhere else and didn't want to pay a second WP and took a while to figure out where they wanted to go to?

3. What if they didn't have a nearby waypoint because of the map and they were trying to figure out the fastest route back? Especially in HoT maps.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Seera.5916 said:

> 3. What if they didn't have a nearby waypoint because of the map and they were trying to figure out the fastest route back? Especially in HoT maps.

 

Create a system to let players spawn at their personal waypoint if they've got active participation during an event ? Problem solved no ?

[Iridium.6385]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > 3. What if they didn't have a nearby waypoint because of the map and they were trying to figure out the fastest route back? Especially in HoT maps.

>

> Create a system to let players spawn at their personal waypoint if they've got active participation during an event ? Problem solved no ?

 

Just one out of all three problems, no?

 

Too much time and resources spent on an issue that isn't even that much of an issue. Really. If a person won't WP even after being told to do so, what makes you people think that some fee will change that person's attitude?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

>

> No its not especially when its 100% faster for them to just waypoint and walk back as opposed to having 1-2 people stop fighting and then rez. Instead you've now taken 3 people out of the fight instead of 1.

 

The thing is, it's not always faster. For a lot of the HP trains and bounty trains, the place where they're fighting is far enough away that it can take several minutes for a dead player to waypoint and come back. If the event is right next to a waypoint, yes you obviously should just waypoint instead of waiting for a rez, but the answer isn't always clear cut when you're, say, fighting the legendary water djin bounty in the Palace of Aban. On top of this, a lot of these trains run in a continuous loop instead of jumping around waypoints. In these cases, if a player is defeated, the entire zerg has to wait for that player to waypoint and run back to the new location... or they can just rez them where they lie.

 

To be real, I know what is going on. People who want a stay-dead tax are hyper focused on singular events like Gerent or Tequatl, where it is far too dangerous to rez a player. They have adopted the toxic mentality that other people owe them their presence and their performance. To try and control the masses, the taxers have fabricated a sin for other players to be guilty of, giving them a moral foothold to invade their lives and control how other people play the game. It's like microaggressions, cultural appropriation, carbon credits, and second-hand smoke all over again. The fact is that people are defeated, then other people run up and quickly rez the defeated, and then they continue fighting as if there no issue. Since they're rezzed while defeated, of course they're going to expect players to continue to rez the defeated and have no problems doing the same. The idea that they're "leeching" is an utterly foreign concept imposed by control freaks.

 

There are several ways to change this issue without having to impose a tax on players. If rezzing dead people takes too long, then anet can adjust the dead rising rate in PVE to make it a more viable strategy. The issue isn't one of player demeanor, it is of game mechanics. It is about balancing punishments, costs, difficulty, and reward for events. Imposing a tax or forcing a waypoint is a terrible way to handle the issue. Making their participation decay at an exponential rate is also a terrible way to handle the issue. They both produce the same result: players lying there and demanding an expedient recovery to avoid the imposed penalties. It will increase toxicity in the community while doing nothing to actually solve the hypothetical problem of rezzing the dead being too slow.

 

If someone is of sufficient wit and honest of character, then they'll realize this. The whole reason why people want to impose these punishments is because of flaws in their character. They're selfish, self-obsessed, and want people to suffer for not bowing to their demands.

[Menadena.7482]

> @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> > > If someone likes to lay on the ground dead, it's their choice to consider it playing or not. I personally wouldn't call it that. but they might.

> >

> > I don't even know what you are saying here. It's someone's choice to consider **playing** lying on the floor?

> > It's not **playing** in any way because you are actively doing anything other than leeching and waiting to get your rewards.

> > And not only it's not **playing** in any form, but it's also rude and inconsiderate to the other players that are finishing the event while the dead are afking on the floor.

> > What's next? Players rushing to a big event, commit suicide and then go for a coffee while the others finish it.

>

> Okay, lets approach from your point of view. they aren't playing, they went afk for whatever reason. I feel we strayed off from the original subject

> someone being dead, what impact has that for you?

>

> The "F to rezz" notification being annoying?

> Them leeching? That doesn't impact you in anyway, it just feels like they cheat. which I can understand, that's also why (if you read all my previous comments)

> I mentioned that a tax would be a bad idea, and a loss of participation would be a better solution (and one of the commentors stated this is already the case)

>

> Someone else mentioned that they still scale up the event even with dead people (which to be fair isn't to much of an impact when it's only a few dead people).

> But either way if this is the case (we need confirmation on this) it should be addressed in a different way than "taxing" them

 

People being dead has multiple effects. It not only takes the dead person out of action (and potentially scales up the event for someone who is not contributing) but does the same for at least one person rezzing them. In fact, since the best strategy is 'rez the downed, leave the dead until later' you could legitimately say them grabbing the 'f' key that was meant for someone as downed as griefing.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

No problem. Next time as I run back I'll attempt to drag as many adds back with me as possible.

 

[mikansei.5742]

> @Menadena.7482 said:

> In fact, since the best strategy is 'rez the downed, leave the dead until later' you could legitimately say them grabbing the 'f' key that was meant for someone as downed as griefing.

 

Uh, no. _You_ misclicking someone you didn't want to rez doesn't automatically make _them_ a griefer.

[Menadena.7482]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Another option - disable revive in event areas/maps during the event. Like in raids you can't wake up fully defeated.

 

That would be perfect except for one problem: they upscale events.

[zombyturtle.5980]

People who stay dead during group events are really annoying but they arent breaking any rules by doing so. It seems unfair to punish people when they arent doing anything wrong other than not not adhering to etiquette.

 

Dead people shouldnt upscale events, its not intended. Anet supposedly fixed that awhile back, if they still are upscaling them, thats a bug that needs to be fixed.

 

I think a participation decay timer could be a good incentive to wp but it would have to be adjusted for every event individually based on how long they generally take to complete which would probably be way more effort than its worth to implement.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> >

> > No its not especially when its 100% faster for them to just waypoint and walk back as opposed to having 1-2 people stop fighting and then rez. Instead you've now taken 3 people out of the fight instead of 1.

>

> The thing is, it's not always faster. For a lot of the HP trains and bounty trains, the place where they're fighting is far enough away that it can take several minutes for a dead player to waypoint and come back. If the event is right next to a waypoint, yes you obviously should just waypoint instead of waiting for a rez, but the answer isn't always clear cut when you're, say, fighting the legendary water djin bounty in the Palace of Aban. On top of this, a lot of these trains run in a continuous loop instead of jumping around waypoints. In these cases, if a player is defeated, the entire zerg has to wait for that player to waypoint and run back to the new location... or they can just rez them where they lie.

>

> To be real, I know what is going on. People who want a stay-dead tax are hyper focused on singular events like Gerent or Tequatl, where it is far too dangerous to rez a player. They have adopted the toxic mentality that other people owe them their presence and their performance. To try and control the masses, the taxers have fabricated a sin for other players to be guilty of, giving them a moral foothold to invade their lives and control how other people play the game. It's like microaggressions, cultural appropriation, carbon credits, and second-hand smoke all over again. The fact is that people are defeated, then other people run up and quickly rez the defeated, and then they continue fighting as if there no issue. Since they're rezzed while defeated, of course they're going to expect players to continue to rez the defeated and have no problems doing the same. The idea that they're "leeching" is an utterly foreign concept imposed by control freaks.

>

> There are several ways to change this issue without having to impose a tax on players. If rezzing dead people takes too long, then anet can adjust the dead rising rate in PVE to make it a more viable strategy. The issue isn't one of player demeanor, it is of game mechanics. It is about balancing punishments, costs, difficulty, and reward for events. Imposing a tax or forcing a waypoint is a terrible way to handle the issue. Making their participation decay at an exponential rate is also a terrible way to handle the issue. They both produce the same result: players lying there and demanding an expedient recovery to avoid the imposed penalties. It will increase toxicity in the community while doing nothing to actually solve the hypothetical problem of rezzing the dead being too slow.

>

> If someone is of sufficient wit and honest of character, then they'll realize this. The whole reason why people want to impose these punishments is because of flaws in their character. They're selfish, self-obsessed, and want people to suffer for not bowing to their demands.

 

Water Djinn takes less than 30 seconds to get back to from the closest waypoint.....not even sure why you'd bring that up.

It's not about wanting a tax on people, it's literally about people just respawning and contributing instead of being both extra visual clutter but also a hazard as there's floor based bundles that people wish to use. If i gave you the option to instantly respawn within the event zone you'd take it no ? That's all that has to be done. Give people the option to do it at the exact same cost as actually waypointing. Heck even give them the option to chose their respawn location via setting a personal waypoint.

 

But lets be real here...That's all just being "NICE". Death is a punishment and as such you should accept it, and respawn and fix your poor play and positioning.

 

> @Iridium.6385 said:

> Too much time and resources spent on an issue that isn't even that much of an issue. Really. If a person won't WP even after being told to do so, what makes you people think that some fee will change that person's attitude?

 

If you'd follow i said adding cost is dumb on the first page. It should be the exact same cost as clicking the WP.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

 

> Let's clarify this issue for all of you: the event or boss fight starts and everyone is ALIVE, the event scales to the "living" character counts, some of the characters die and remain there without waypointing, the event or boss is still scaled to the amount of players that were there at the beginning, but the counter starts to decay because now you have dead players not PARTICIPATING in the event or boss, however, this decay is very slow and unless a significant amount of people leave no one will notice. That's how even scaling works now, and has for the last 3 years or so.

 

Actually, there were people that were doing a lot of testing on that system during the second Queen's Pavillon event, and from what i remember the rescaling is not a slow gradual decay, but a more direct drop, and it's relatively fast at that. So, if what the devs say about dead people not being counted for scaling is true (which does seem to agree with observational data), then there's even less reason to charge those players with making things harder for everyone else.

 

All those dead players? If they weren't there, the fight would not be any different.

 

Now, the _collection_ events often tend to scale badly (and often do not even try to scale back once upscaled), but usually it's not the dead players that cause problems, but the very alive zerg players that happened to run right through the event area.

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

I don't agree with the tax thing but I feel like there should be a 2-3 minute timer (kinda like wvw)until you're forced to respawn at the nearest wp, this would keep people from having their armor damaged while afk and solve this problem altogether.

[DearlyMe.5320]

I don't agree with a tax, either. An automatic waypoint after a specific amount of time to the nearest will do just fine, if you must. Money will still be paid and they'll be out of the way.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

Also on the thought on "If it's almost dead, then I understand them not waypointing", I've seen it happen 2 times to one of my friends in a squad. Once in Brink and once in Depths.

The Wyvern was at 3% and the Chak at the time had about 5% or so left on it. The commander of the squad booted my friend for not waypointing which would've taken too long to get back before the fight was over.

[Menadena.7482]

> @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

> Well, thanks to ANets wonderful idea with the level 80 instant boosts, we have a great load of newbies in all highlevel (80+) zones in the game. Many of them have hardly played their personal story. Some have never played a single episode of any of the living stories. And a very good ammount of them has nearly no clue about the struggle we had in the jungle. Experience is something people aquire over time, but what these players lack the most are the games basics. I know, tutorials and manuals are for losers, true professionals need neither of them. ^^

>

 

The level 80 boosts are obvious but you have always been able to level up fast, especially if willing to buy gold. For example, just toss all the crafting disciplines on one character and max all of them out using one of the guides on the net. Yes, you will burn gold like crazy but you will get to 80 fast with the minimum of things learned.

 

[Druitt.7629]

I'm against laziness. At the same time, zones in HoT are stupidly annoying to waypoint in: Auric Basin, where pretty much every waypoint in the zone becomes contested during events so you really can't come back anywhere nearby, and Verdant Brink where you can be locked out of the canopy, and so on. Also, I haven't figured out if you get to access a chest if you are not nearby when it drops -- it seems at times it's better to stay nearby and dead than to try to run back and miss the chest. (Other rewards you do get at a distance, but chests aren't clear to me)

 

Unfortunately, it's hard to automatedly differentiate laziness from these other kinds of problems/calculations, so I'd have to vote against a penalty.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @kharmin.7683 said:

>So, for example, the nearest WP costs 1sp. Dead player would be charged 1sp for remaining dead. Then, since presumably no one would rez the player after the event, they would have to pay 1sp again to use the nearest WP?

 

IF the player wants to stay dead, he would have to click the "stay dead" button prompt, otherwise he would be instantly WPed and have the cost deducted.

 

IF he chooses to press the "stay dead" button, then he would stay dead, and pay whatever the fee for that would be.

 

If he stays dead, then he would either have to hope for a rez later, or manually WP later, which would have an additional fee, but again, that wouldn't be an issues *unless* he makes the affirmative choice to stay on the ground. I suppose it would be reasonable for the second WP fee to be waived if you paid the "stay" fee, although I have no idea how plausible that would be to implement.

 

But again, the tr;dl is that if you accept the automatic WPing, then you'd pay no more than a standard WPing, you'd only have to pay the fee if you manually *choose* to pay it.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > Wanting to be revived and wanting to leech are the exact same thing, period. This isn't an argument, it's what they do, leech.

>

> It's not. They sincerely believe that the best way to do the event is to wait for a rez if they die.

>

 

But they are wrong. It's possible to sincerely believe something and also be wrong.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Khisanth.2948 said:

> >

> > The person hanging back is providing minimal contribution but still more than the dead person. While those 5 people are reviving the dead person the dead person is effectively doing negative damage that would make it worse than leeching.

>

> The "negative damage" is compensated by having the dead come back faster than using a waypoint. That is bonus damage that wouldn't otherwise be had.

 

That is almost never true, especially not with mounts.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> >

> > Maybe I don't have the piggish mentality as those that does raids or high end fractals as I don't do raids or high end fractals.

>

> We just rez people in high end fractals. If somebody just goes /gg the moment another player is defeated, we kick that person and get somebody who will actually try.

 

This proposal has nothing to do with Fractals.

 

>The thing is, it's not always faster. For a lot of the HP trains and bounty trains, the place where they're fighting is far enough away that it can take several minutes for a dead player to waypoint and come back.

 

You can cross the entirety of most PoF maps in less than a couple of minutes. You can get from any point to the nearest WP in well less than a minute. That is never worth taking multiple characters offline for the time it would take to rez a defeated character while in combat.

 

> @DearlyMe.5320 said:

> I don't agree with a tax, either. An automatic waypoint after a specific amount of time to the nearest will do just fine, if you must. Money will still be paid and they'll be out of the way.

 

But the point of this is, it's BETTER than that. This proposal would allow for that, if that's what you would like, just don't do anything and you would be auto-WPed like you describe. This proposal just offers players a second option, the option to stay if they really want to, it would just come at a cost, so that it's not as simple a choice.

 

 

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > I revive downed people when I can to the point at times I might get downed myself, but in the end the ones I help usually help me back up too. That is how you're supposed to play and not only think about yourself.

>

> Reviving the dead means you waste time, you risk getting killed yourself, you don't help your team with CC and many many other things, so when you do revive dead people you are indeed thinking only about yourself and that person you are reviving while screwing the rest of the group. Try to think about all the players around and not only yourself next time and stop being selfish.

 

You asked for harder content. You got it. Why QQ?

 

Literally HOW MANY THREADS have been asking for more "challenging" content?!

 

THIS IS IT

 

infinite lols

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

If artificial upscaling, and cc while rezzing dead players and massive aoe spam with slim chances of survival and almost certain failure IsN't challenging enough for you guys well pfftttt

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

This is true endgame.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > I revive downed people when I can to the point at times I might get downed myself, but in the end the ones I help usually help me back up too. That is how you're supposed to play and not only think about yourself.

> >

> > Reviving the dead means you waste time, you risk getting killed yourself, you don't help your team with CC and many many other things, so when you do revive dead people you are indeed thinking only about yourself and that person you are reviving while screwing the rest of the group. Try to think about all the players around and not only yourself next time and stop being selfish.

>

> Rather help people who's almost dead than an event that is on constant rotation over the day.

> Maybe I don't have the piggish mentality as those that does raids or high end fractals as I don't do raids or high end fractals.

> Players come 1st. Stupid metas come last.

> You can care about "GOTTA GO FAST!" I care about "Everyone getting a chance to play and getting help when down."

>

> I guess I'm leeching too for not worrying about attacking when someone is dying literally 1 foot away from me. So be it.

 

Talking about dead players not downed players. Helping downed players is a given I don't know how you missed that, the entire discussion is about DEAD players.

In Raids and high end fractals reviving the downed player is even more important than reviving them in the open world so I don't know where you got that idea either.