A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> >Who amd how are you to define amd know when someone is leeching? This thread has many contributors of why someone would be dead amd not wp. How will you make the distinction between those and genuine leeches?

>

> The point is, such value judgements are not necessary. It is not a "leech tax," it is a "sticking around and not WPing tax." It is applied to everyone evenly if they choose to not WP. Simple.

>

> Nobody is being judged, they are either paying a fee to stick around, or they aren't.

 

Read some of the comments in this thread and tell me again how nobody is being judged.

 

And AGAIN, you were give a perfectly viable solution by @"Dashingsteel.3410" and you ignored it.

 

He solved his without some wp tax, without any posturing, without requiring to create new code, new UI dialogue boxes... and you people keep ignoring it just to keep pressing your issue at non-waypointers.

 

If this was *really* about scaling amd participation, everyone should have said "thank you dashing steel /thread, Anet please make"

 

And the thread would be over.

[Healix.5819]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> This thread has many contributors of why someone would be dead amd not wp. How will you make the distinction between those and genuine leeches?

 

There's no need to. If the game had an actual contribution system, it wouldn't matter why you failed to meet the minimum requirements, you simply did and you wouldn't be rewarded because of it. On the other end, those putting in the most effort would be rewarded for doing so.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> Read some of the comments in this thread and tell me again how nobody is being judged.

 

I'm talking about the system under discussion here. If individuals want to judge other individuals, that's their own business.

 

>He solved his without some wp tax, without any posturing, without requiring to create new code, new UI dialogue boxes... and you people keep ignoring it just to keep pressing your issue at non-waypointers.

 

>If this was really about scaling amd participation, everyone should have said "thank you dashing steel /thread, Anet please make"

 

>And the thread would be over.

 

OR we could disagree that it was the best solution. The only posts I see from DashingSteel seem to be about scaling, which is bedside the point of this proposal.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Healix.5819 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > This thread has many contributors of why someone would be dead amd not wp. How will you make the distinction between those and genuine leeches?

>

> There's no need to. If the game had an actual contribution system, it wouldn't matter why you failed to meet the minimum requirements, you simply did and you wouldn't be rewarded because of it. On the other end, those putting in the most effort would be rewarded for doing so.

 

Yes, well it doesn't.

 

And personally, I am totally ok of some player walked so far into a map w/o waypoint close by and I had to carry the event and they profit.

 

I run dungeons with noobs and do all the work then rez them so they can loot chests. They suck and I'm in combat so they can't wp. Are they leeches? No.

 

What does it bereft You? What did you possibly lose? Three greens and 8 min?

 

I don't understand the hostility in thread. And that's coming from a pretty hostile guy so that's saying something.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > Read some of the comments in this thread and tell me again how nobody is being judged.

>

> I'm talking about the system under discussion here. If individuals want to judge other individuals, that's their own business.

>

> >He solved his without some wp tax, without any posturing, without requiring to create new code, new UI dialogue boxes... and you people keep ignoring it just to keep pressing your issue at non-waypointers.

>

> >If this was really about scaling amd participation, everyone should have said "thank you dashing steel /thread, Anet please make"

>

> >And the thread would be over.

>

> OR we could disagree that it was the best solution. The only posts I see from DashingSteel seem to be about scaling, which is bedside the point of this proposal.

 

He proposed a solution to the REASON people are upset over dead bodies.(scaling)

 

Everyone else just want to PUNISH those dead bodies.(vindictiveness)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

>

> He proposed a solution to the REASON people are upset over dead bodies.(scaling)

>

> Everyone else just want to PUNISH those dead bodies.(vindictiveness)

 

The "problem" is really just a means to excuse punishing people they don't like. You're in a debate with people who have no intention of finding the best solution.

[Zin Dau.1749]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> This is my last time repeating: staying dead = not playing, that's indisputable.

 

Not rezzing others = not being nice player. The game has a rez feature for a reason. If you're not rezzing, play another game. that's indisputable.

 

Foretell how OP's death tax will go down. 1. Lots of people will complain about missing rewards or events not worth doing. 2. Lots less players doing events, or just quitting the game. 3. OP return here to complain about not enough players doing events.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

>

> He proposed a solution to the REASON people are upset over dead bodies.(scaling)

 

Scaling is *a* reason people don't like dead bodies lying around, not *the* reason.

 

Personally my reason is that I don't like the battlefield clutter of these characters with little death symbols over them, which can be confused with viable downed players, or even worse in a tight packing situation can make accurately targeting downed players more difficult, or even in some cases interfere with combat mechanics (although "press f" mechanics in combat situations are fairly rare these days). I would like players to clear the battlefield, but at the same time I don't want to forcibly remove them with no alternatives. So I presented *this* alternative, Plan A, they get forcibly removed. Plan B, if they *really* want to stay, they have to pay a small fee to do so.

 

How would the scaling solution resolve that problem?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zin Dau.1749" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > This is my last time repeating: staying dead = not playing, that's indisputable.

>

> Not rezzing others = not being nice player. The game has a rez feature for a reason. If you're not rezzing, play another game. that's indisputable.

>

> Foretell how OP's death tax will go down. 1. Lots of people will complain about missing rewards or events not worth doing. 2. Lots less players doing events, or just quitting the game. 3. OP return here to complain about not enough players doing events.

 

If there is a significant number of players who would be upset that they aren't allowed to spend an event on their faces, then I fail to see how it would be a bad thing if they weren't showing up to those events at all. Most players have no problem whatsoever WPing the instant their bodies hit the floor. I agree that players should rez players who are downed, and for a long while I was actually running a "Healer Thief," specced around rezzing other players in zergs with the power of Shadow Refuge, but the devs put the massive lag on rezzing *defeated* players in for a reason too, it's not something you're meant to do casually.

 

Defeated players ARE meant to rez themselves, the pop-up message already says so. Having other players rez you is just a nice alternative when nothing else is going on. There is no "noble defense" of waiting more than 30 seconds to WP yourself under any circumstances. It is always a selfish act, whether it's one you choose to condone, or not.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Zin Dau.1749" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > This is my last time repeating: staying dead = not playing, that's indisputable.

>

> Not rezzing others = not being nice player. The game has a rez feature for a reason. If you're not rezzing, play another game. that's indisputable.

>

> Foretell how OP's death tax will go down. 1. Lots of people will complain about missing rewards or events not worth doing. 2. Lots less players doing events, or just quitting the game. 3. OP return here to complain about not enough players doing events.

>

 

How are you going to force me to rez you then?

[Asumir.1978]

Hear! Hear! I want this in WvW! Only faster. Dead? WP in 5 sec unless someone is free (or stupid, if mid-combat) enough to ress you.

 

 

[Asumir.1978]

Although I admit I did use my dead time to report enemy numbers, movement and direction if I _did_ happen to be wiped by a zerg while scouting alone.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > > I revive downed people when I can to the point at times I might get downed myself, but in the end the ones I help usually help me back up too. That is how you're supposed to play and not only think about yourself.

> > >

> > > Reviving the dead means you waste time, you risk getting killed yourself, you don't help your team with CC and many many other things, so when you do revive dead people you are indeed thinking only about yourself and that person you are reviving while screwing the rest of the group. Try to think about all the players around and not only yourself next time and stop being selfish.

> >

> > Rather help people who's almost dead than an event that is on constant rotation over the day.

> > Maybe I don't have the piggish mentality as those that does raids or high end fractals as I don't do raids or high end fractals.

> > Players come 1st. Stupid metas come last.

> > You can care about "GOTTA GO FAST!" I care about "Everyone getting a chance to play and getting help when down."

> >

> > I guess I'm leeching too for not worrying about attacking when someone is dying literally 1 foot away from me. So be it.

>

> Talking about dead players not downed players. Helping downed players is a given I don't know how you missed that, the entire discussion is about DEAD players.

> In Raids and high end fractals reviving the downed player is even more important than reviving them in the open world so I don't know where you got that idea either.

 

The problem is I've seen countless times where people won't help downed players.

Those same people are the ones that whine about "IF YOU'RE DEAD JUST WAYPOINT!"

The quiet people are the ones that help downed AND dead players.

 

That is the problem. These people won't even help downed.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> And again and again people have given you many reasons as to why someone would just lay dead.

>

> 50% of the time it is pure laziness, yes. But so what?! They wanna be lazy, they paid for that. They paid for pixels and they will get them.

>

> You say they don't deserve rewards? Sure I'll agree there, like you said, they didn't do the event and just layer there. So then lets take away all season 1 rewards from people who bought s1 boxes. *they didn't do the event*.

>

> Nice double standards you keep walking into.

>

> At the end of the day, all events in ALL of guild wars 2 have NO CONSEQUENCE. There has been NO event since living world s1 that isn't running 80 times a day every day forever.

>

> You failed an event? Whoopdiiidooo, try again in 20 min. The is NO SCARCITY AND NO PRESSURE EVER ANYMORE.

>

> Nothing in this game is final anymore, you have infinity chances. Why are you so upset by dead pixels in a game where there is almost zero chance you will ever miss anything.

>

 

They lose that one moment on let's say they fail the Tequila Dragon (I've seen it only fail once and only because I was on a dead map... pun not intended), they lost that one chance on MAYBE getting a spoon. MAYBE. That maybe never came because of the dead players.

 

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > @Yamazuki.6073 said:

> > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > > > @Yamazuki.6073 said:

> > > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > > > > > > Yeah. And TP flipping is also how some people play the game too.

> > > > > > > I trust by your comment that you also are against level 80 boost and WP unlock as well?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > TP flipping requires player action, in fact it requires a lot of player action.

> > > > > > Boosting and WP unlocks are irrelevant to the discussion (I'm not against them btw)

> > > > > > Being dead is the same as being afk

> > > > >

> > > > > So you are ok with people unlocking wps and leveling without playing the game to do so. But you are not ok with people laying dead actively sitting at the keyboard waiting for Rez?

> > > > >

> > > > > Gotcha.

> > > > >

> > > > > No dear, not irrelevant to the conversation. You sardonicaly brought up "active play" and now you don't like where it's headed.

> > > >

> > > > Lets see, buying an 80 scroll/WPs doesn't involve leeching off of people, and they paid for the convenience. The fact they bought these does not negatively impact anyone, and it supports the game for everyone. Meanwhile, intentionally staying dead is an inconvenience to everyone, gets you rewards you didn't earn.

> > >

> > > Oh you mean how people who bought season1 gamble boxes GOT REWARDS THEY DIDN'T EARN?!

> > >

> > > People paid for the game, they paid for the ability to die and not wp.

> > >

> > > ALso nice sidewind. The operative argument was "active play" not "negative impact".

> > >

> > > Don't be a sore un-winner.

> > >

> >

> > You buy a level 80 scroll so you can play content at level 80. You stay dead and you're unable to play and are alt tabbed watching videos. Gee, I wonder which person is playing the game and which person is intentionally leeching off of people for rewards they did not work for or paid for. Even if you want to take "active play" literally, you have to actively go through the gem store to purchase your gems, then actively scroll through the store to buy it, then actively purchase it, actively receive said items, actively use the item and load SW, then actively talk to the npc, and actively go through the extra items and then actively play the game like a normal human being because the level 80 boost doesn't include scripting/botting software to farm for you. Meanwhile, receiving rewards from events you didn't help complete due to being dead involves not being at your computer, tabbed out of the game, or being a spectator; none of these are active interactions with the game.

> >

> > By the way, if you PAY for something you EARNED it; if you sat around and let others do it for you, you didn't. If you want to complain about pay for convenience, I suggest you create your own thread instead of hijacking this one.

>

> Billy PAID for university education. Even though he was hungover every day and failed his exams he still EARNED his degree.

>

> Nice one buddy.

>

> As for the first line, again what happened between activating your 80 boos and being 80? Nothing. You skipped MANY hours of normally required play. You did not play to get to 80. You skipped having to play the game.

>

> And by YOUR own example, the dead person lying on the floor IS playing the game, they are typing in chat, cleaning inventory, looking at guild panel.

>

> Surely this is active!!! They have to actively go into inventory panel.

>

> Thank you. We are in agreement noq that dead players are actively playing the game.

 

I do know I've took a few times when dead to at least salvage non rares to make room. So I can relate to this part.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > > > I revive downed people when I can to the point at times I might get downed myself, but in the end the ones I help usually help me back up too. That is how you're supposed to play and not only think about yourself.

> > > >

> > > > Reviving the dead means you waste time, you risk getting killed yourself, you don't help your team with CC and many many other things, so when you do revive dead people you are indeed thinking only about yourself and that person you are reviving while screwing the rest of the group. Try to think about all the players around and not only yourself next time and stop being selfish.

> > >

> > > Rather help people who's almost dead than an event that is on constant rotation over the day.

> > > Maybe I don't have the piggish mentality as those that does raids or high end fractals as I don't do raids or high end fractals.

> > > Players come 1st. Stupid metas come last.

> > > You can care about "GOTTA GO FAST!" I care about "Everyone getting a chance to play and getting help when down."

> > >

> > > I guess I'm leeching too for not worrying about attacking when someone is dying literally 1 foot away from me. So be it.

> >

> > Talking about dead players not downed players. Helping downed players is a given I don't know how you missed that, the entire discussion is about DEAD players.

> > In Raids and high end fractals reviving the downed player is even more important than reviving them in the open world so I don't know where you got that idea either.

>

> The problem is I've seen countless times where people won't help downed players.

> Those same people are the ones that whine about "IF YOU'RE DEAD JUST WAYPOINT!"

> The quiet people are the ones that help downed AND dead players.

>

> That is the problem. These people won't even help downed.

 

Hmm, I could see the annoyance of seeing defeated people as an easy incentive to help out your fellow downed player, or even support them before they do.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> That is the problem. These people won't even help downed.

 

No that's not the problem. We have a different perception of the game because I see players trying to help the downed all the time. Even those who scream "dead waypoint" are the first to help the downed, and more often than not, "dead waypoint" is followed, or preceded, by "revive the downed".

At least when it makes sense to do so, those that are downed can be in a place where reviving them would lead to more deaths.

You are quick to put the blame on others though.

 

And even if that wasn't the case, so what? You are punishing those who didn't come to help you while you were downed by staying dead and not using the waypoint?

[Ghost Nightstalker.7163]

Since DPS in events is so high a couple of dead people laying arround it is less annoying then all the people screaming dead people should WP. So you get your loot a micro second later boohoo.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ghost Nightstalker.7163" said:

> Since DPS in events is so high a couple of dead people laying arround it is less annoying then all the people screaming dead people should WP. So you get your loot a micro second later boohoo.

 

If it was a couple of people maybe you'd have a point but it's not. Imagine how fun it was when I was doing the Legendary Bounty north of Kodash (the djinn) that wiped everyone other than 4 people, and nobody of those 22+ other dead released to the waypoint. Obviously the last 4 also died (the boss had 40% health). Then everyone released at the waypoint together, run back. This second time all the dead ported instantly to run back and we killed it.

 

Similar thing happened to the Viscount of Candy Corn, that was even more hilarious because the Waypoint is next to him. Half the group is dead and doesn't release, the boss still at >50% health. Fortunately I can solo him, so together with the couple more alive people (that were also competent) we killed him without the help of the useless dead, which did scale up the event making it way harder for us than it should've been.

 

Another time was even better, Rata Novus lane during Chak Gerent, a person died in the poison, players go back to revive him, they die too (due to the poison), not enough time to charge the golem, event fails, 100+ people lost their time, because one guy refused to use the waypoint to Rata Novus, which is less than 20 seconds away. And all those idiots who thought they were "The good guys" by rushing in to revive a dead person, who was inside the poison.

 

On the other hand, was doing the guild bounty 2-Mult, he can be annoying a low number of players, many died, fortunately since it was a guild effort and nobody wanted to be a rude selfish moron, all the dead used a waypoint to get back to the fight and kill him. Judging by the amount of dead, if they stayed to leech, the boss wouldn't die.

 

Fun times, and you are talking about getting the loot some time later? More like failing the event if the dead don't release.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> They can deal with all those reasons at a waypoint and not in a fight. Not taking the 10 seconds to go to a waypoint is also lazy. And even if they have reasons like that, they are STILL leeching. And automatically porting them to a waypoint solves the problem anyway, how is it "punishment"?

>

 

I would hazard a guess that you don’t have young children in the house. Some people, living in different situations might not share your specific priorities.

 

I get that you (and others here) want to change behavior of players. Punishment is simply using a negative consequence penalize undesirable behavior. Here the proposal to require a fee for remaining defeated is a negative consequence, as is stripping event rewards. While punishment has some effect towards changing behavior, in order to effect long term change rewards work far, far better than punishment. So if you are truly serious about this and not just wanting to flog others for not playing your way, then consider what ways might the game might REWARD players for using a WP when fully dead. (And no, being allowed to keep event rewards does not count as reward for behavior change, brain chemistry doesn’t work that way). The real trick is how to balance the rewards so that you don’t end up rewarding undesirable behavior!

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:

>So if you are truly serious about this and not just wanting to flog others for not playing your way, then consider what ways might the game might REWARD players for using a WP when fully dead.

 

IF there was a reward for that then players would commit suicide so they use the waypoint to get that reward. IF there is any kind of reward for using the waypoint then it promotes bad play and is highly exploitative.

 

I understand that people have RL issues for staying dead and in most cases I don't have a problem with a player staying dead, after all if the event will succeed anyway there is no reason to get upset over it. Nobody is saying "dead waypoint" at Shadow Behemoth even if some new players might die there. Why? Because it doesn't affect the outcome of the event. But you can't possibly convince me that when half the squad is dead fighting the Viscount of Candy Corn and refuse to waypoint that their babies started crying in unison at that same moment. I understand the "I stay dead due to RL reasons" but this is a terrible argument in most cases that waypointing matters and means the difference between succeeding in the event and failing.

[Chadramar.8156]

I just wish it was impossible to res fully dead people while in combat. The fact that there is only a single hotkey controlling every interaction from reviving and harvesting to grabbing banners and conjured weapons, combined with the obscene amount of graphical clutter from spell effects, legendaries, squad names etc. etc. etc. , often makes it really hard to pick up downed people. Separating reviving from picking stuff up with a new key would help, but so would not allowing dead people to be revived until after the fighting is over. That way, if you see the "Revive" popup among the effects vomit you wouldn't have to risk precious moments watching the other person's lifebar to determine whether they're just downed or being selfish.

 

I've pretty much stopped ressing people in big events, even after combat. If I see a random person downed somewhere and don't manage to rush in and save them in time, of course I'll res. Likewise if they fall from a high place and splat in front of my nose or whatever. Or when we're in a hero point run where it's hard to catch up if you die. (I remember a HoT hero point run in which a level 10 or so joined us and needed a lot of TLC to stay on their feet. That was legitimately amusing and nobody minded, that lowbie character became something of a mascot for the run.) But if you're lazy enough to lie there and whine during events, being a health hazard to others and even risk event failure? Shove off, I don't feel like "rewarding" that behavior.

 

Auto-revival at the nearest WP with inflated fees or similar punishments wouldn't be something I support, though. Moira is right about rewards having better effects than punishments, and as I said there are times when I do want to res and wouldn't want the person to be auto-yanked out from under my hands.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I'd go with something similar to WvW:

 

* Reviving defeated players is no longer possible during combat. You'll have to clear enemies around first. Rallying downed players would not change.

* Being defeated within a *group event* starts a timer, when it ends you are forcibly teleported to the closest waypoint. The timer would be just a few seconds instead the 5 mins you'd get in WvW. Something like 30s. Having someone reviving you would reset the timer, so a friend playing with you would be able to revive you if they can clear enemies around quickly.

 

Also, players must be told more clearly the difference between defeated and downed, and between the "rally" that recovers from downed and the "revive" that recovers from defeated.

* The behavior of skills that revive or rally must be consistent between NPCs and players so what works with players works with NPCs and vice-versa. Right now players can revive defeated NPCs with revive skills, but when they try and use those skills on defeated players they do nothing. The behavior on players needs to be used for both.

* The "rally" you can get for downed and the "revive" required for defeated need to be clearly delimited, including changing skill descriptions to show that difference.

* The overhead and minimap icons for downed and defeated players and NPCs need to be different from each other and consistent between minimap and overhead icon.

* Allied NPCs you have to protect for events must go downed instead directly to defeated. Events that would fail if the NPC is not revived soon enough would get the timer replaced by the NPC's downed health, and the event would fail directly on the defeat of that NPC. In cases when things would get too hard because of this change, the NPC would get a greater health pool and armor when downed and have its downed HP degen slowed so it takes longer for them to be defeated. "Revive" skills would be only "rally" skills and work only with downed players or NPCs. To revive defeated players and NPC you'd have to use the context revive next to their body (default F).

* NPCs without a downed animation would use their knocked down animation for their downed state.

[Joxer.6024]

Just don't rez em, keep pew-pewing and move on? That to tuff? :#

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> Just don't rez em, keep pew-pewing and move on? That to tuff? :#

 

If you'd read the thread you'd know that this isn't possible. Dead players cause events to fail and that's the problem. A random player that has some RL issues wouldn't be a problem, it's when half the squad wipes and refuses to use a waypoint when the boss is at 80% that is the problem.

Nobody even cares if someone dies at Shadow Behemoth. But if half the ranged squad is dead at Tequatl it means failure.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

Bad players cause events to fail too. *shrug

 

I don't see failing events as a problem that would need to be solved by the developers. I have failed many events because I am attempting group events with very little people or solo.

I feel like asking for this fee, or auto waypointing is more of a player/player interaction problem, than a player/game interaction problem.

 

I mean, yeah it's annoying when you're with players that don't res, or simply play so badly that you feel like you're the only one doing CC. And then you fail an event and don't get a reward. This is part of the game. If this just auto resovles, then those bad players don't matter, being defeated matters less, and in the end you're just making it so that players don't have to play well at all.

 

Not to mention the cases where this issue persists, or is even relevant, does not warrant a game wide system which auto teleports you in every single case. It's taxing players where it doesn't matter, and maybe not even taxing enough where it does matter.

 

I definitely don't feel like that every single time that someone doesn't resurrect that warrants an auto teleport and/or a fee on top of that.