Anet, why nerf the weaker of the viable builds in FB?

[Mikau.6920]

So, is Loremaster strict better than Quickfire now?

[Brutaly.6257]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> I think the big difference is that how you have to get that uptime is more intensive to the player's build. Like you said ... now you HAVE to do something, before you had options. That makes sense for such a strong effect.

 

you do realize that the rotation in the new setup is much easier to accomplish compared to the old rotation. In the previous build you actually had to do something and time gameplay.

 

You do realize this is most likely a >50% nerf, do you say this is intended?

 

You do realize they pretty much disqualified this from wvw?

 

The price the quickness guardian paid was considerably lower damage and survivability compared to the tome version.

 

This setup is just about program the macro and let it run, perfect for pve and open world all seraph.

[Brutaly.6257]

> @Mikau.6920 said:

> So, is Loremaster strict better than Quickfire now?

 

I think quick fire is better as support in groups, for solo content and roaming i would go loremaster. Its just a hunch and i cant verify it with numbers but its the feeling i get when playing around.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > I think the big difference is that how you have to get that uptime is more intensive to the player's build. Like you said ... now you HAVE to do something, before you had options. That makes sense for such a strong effect.

>

> you do realize that the rotation in the new setup is much easier to accomplish compared to the old rotation. In the previous build you actually had to do something and time gameplay.

>

> You do realize this is most likely a >50% nerf, do you say this is intended?

>

> You do realize they pretty much disqualified this from wvw?

>

> The price the quickness guardian paid was considerably lower damage and survivability compared to the tome version.

>

> This setup is just about program the macro and let it run, perfect for pve and open world all seraph.

 

Yup, but then again, for whatever reason 'sychronizing' was the reason Anet changed it, whatever that bit of nonsense means. Frankly, I'm just a proponent of maintaining the value of high impact buffs, which is what affecting access to quickness does. Does this change do that? I think by your admission it seems to.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > I think the big difference is that how you have to get that uptime is more intensive to the player's build. Like you said ... now you HAVE to do something, before you had options. That makes sense for such a strong effect.

> >

> > you do realize that the rotation in the new setup is much easier to accomplish compared to the old rotation. In the previous build you actually had to do something and time gameplay.

> >

> > You do realize this is most likely a >50% nerf, do you say this is intended?

> >

> > You do realize they pretty much disqualified this from wvw?

> >

> > The price the quickness guardian paid was considerably lower damage and survivability compared to the tome version.

> >

> > This setup is just about program the macro and let it run, perfect for pve and open world all seraph.

>

> Yup, but then again, for whatever reason 'sychronizing' was the reason Anet changed it, whatever that bit of nonsense means. Frankly, I'm just a proponent of maintaining the value of high impact buffs, which is what affecting access to quickness does. Does this change do that? I think by your admission it seems to.

 

That's a weak arguement considering before yesterday, FB already had less quickness uptime than chrono did. I don't think their intention was to restrict access but rather just to decrease it specifically to a few FB builds. Then, if you look at the FB builds hurt most by this change, you'll notice it's the ones that are more offense-oriented. This would be fine if FBs were overtuned offensively which they most definitely are not.

[Brutaly.6257]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > I think the big difference is that how you have to get that uptime is more intensive to the player's build. Like you said ... now you HAVE to do something, before you had options. That makes sense for such a strong effect.

> >

> > you do realize that the rotation in the new setup is much easier to accomplish compared to the old rotation. In the previous build you actually had to do something and time gameplay.

> >

> > You do realize this is most likely a >50% nerf, do you say this is intended?

> >

> > You do realize they pretty much disqualified this from wvw?

> >

> > The price the quickness guardian paid was considerably lower damage and survivability compared to the tome version.

> >

> > This setup is just about program the macro and let it run, perfect for pve and open world all seraph.

>

> Yup, but then again, for whatever reason 'sychronizing' was the reason Anet changed it, whatever that bit of nonsense means. Frankly, I'm just a proponent of maintaining the value of high impact buffs, which is what affecting access to quickness does. Does this change do that? I think by your admission it seems to.

 

Access hasnt been reduced, just build diversity. They actually increased the access to quickness in some game modes and removed diversity in other game modes and at the same time decreased complexity. Nothing in this nerf makes any sense and just the FACT that they made a trait redundant is a sign that this in fact is a mistake made by a dev that dont know how the specialization works.

 

Seriously you always defend anet and in most cases i also do that but you cant seriously say that this makes any sense.

[Hellios.4108]

So, If I have more than 60% boon duration, which is the optimal rotation? I normally play with mantra of solace, potence, retreat and Feel my Wrath

[Ahlen.7591]

> @Ragnarox.9601 said:

> So they fcked up my quickness cele build and buffed warrior. Who the hell is balancing this game?

 

To be fair, they buffed a super underperforming warrior spec.

[Brutaly.6257]

> @Hellios.4108 said:

> So, If I have more than 60% boon duration, which is the optimal rotation? I normally play with mantra of solace, potence, retreat and Feel my Wrath

 

just pop one charge of MoS, all charges of MoP and FmW as fast as you can. Cast MoS as soons as you have 3 charges and MoP and FmW when ever they are off cd. The rotation is just super easy compared to the old 35% boon duration rotation.

 

I have 69% and testing now and 100% uptime with just MoP and MoS.

[Hellios.4108]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > @Hellios.4108 said:

> > So, If I have more than 60% boon duration, which is the optimal rotation? I normally play with mantra of solace, potence, retreat and Feel my Wrath

>

> just pop one charge of MoS, all charges of MoP and FmW as fast as you can. Cast MoS as soons as you have 3 charges and MoP and FmW when ever they are off cd. The rotation is just super easy compared to the old 35% boon duration rotation.

>

> I have 69% and testing now and 100% uptime with just MoP and MoS.

 

Nice ! Thanks man ! Really useful information.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > I think the big difference is that how you have to get that uptime is more intensive to the player's build. Like you said ... now you HAVE to do something, before you had options. That makes sense for such a strong effect.

> > >

> > > you do realize that the rotation in the new setup is much easier to accomplish compared to the old rotation. In the previous build you actually had to do something and time gameplay.

> > >

> > > You do realize this is most likely a >50% nerf, do you say this is intended?

> > >

> > > You do realize they pretty much disqualified this from wvw?

> > >

> > > The price the quickness guardian paid was considerably lower damage and survivability compared to the tome version.

> > >

> > > This setup is just about program the macro and let it run, perfect for pve and open world all seraph.

> >

> > Yup, but then again, for whatever reason 'sychronizing' was the reason Anet changed it, whatever that bit of nonsense means. Frankly, I'm just a proponent of maintaining the value of high impact buffs, which is what affecting access to quickness does. Does this change do that? I think by your admission it seems to.

>

> Access hasnt been reduced, just build diversity. They actually increased the access to quickness in some game modes and removed diversity in other game modes and at the same time decreased complexity. Nothing in this nerf makes any sense and just the FACT that they made a trait redundant is a sign that this in fact is a mistake made by a dev that dont know how the specialization works.

>

> Seriously you always defend anet and in most cases i also do that but you cant seriously say that this makes any sense.

 

True, but I don't think Anet ever gave two spits about build diversity. In fact, I would say that if the change resulted in a direction of simplicity, that would be par for the course for the whole game. Does it make sense? Honestly, I would have to dive deep into playing it. I was under the impression that this was a limitation on access to quickness. If that's not the case, i'm actually disappointed and can't see the point of such a change.

[Skyline Crash.6254]

100% agree. reduce it to 4 seconds to still retain synergy

[Pregnantman.8259]

Lets take a typical setup with 0 Alacrity, healing mantra, mantra of potence and quickness shout. Quickness shout has %11.11 base quickness uptime (5/45), mantra of potence has %28.19 (8/[25+1+1+{2.75/2}]) and healing mantra %33.33 ([2/12]+[2/12]). In total, without accounting for quickness stack limit, its %72.51 base quickness duration. So, again without taking stack limit, %38 quickness duration gets %100 quickness uptime if one healing mantra charge is used only and all mantra of potence charges are used at same time.

 

I don't know how much stack limit would affect uptime. But if we add Sigil of Concentration effect and Alacrity I am hoping it should be enough to even it out. As Brutaly said, it should be possible to maintain %100 quickness just by using 1 healing mantra charge, 3 potence charge spams and quickness shout on CD and under SoC effects.

 

The pros of this setup is that it provides easy rotation, almost minimal gear requirement (Firebrand runes + utility consumable + SoC and optionally Honor staff trait) and minimal conflicts with Alacrity (was very much a problem in previous setup). Cons are you are heavily dependent on hitting your allies with mantras, but this is somewhat made easier with changes too. It goes without saying that this rotation is only feasible on PvE and maybe PvP, you can't really be optimal with this on WvW.

[Brutaly.6257]

> @Pregnantman.8259 said:

> The pros of this setup is that it provides easy rotation, almost minimal gear requirement (Firebrand runes + utility consumable + SoC and optionally Honor staff trait)

 

And this is the part i just cant accept. Nerfing something (that dont need to be nerfed) and in the process dumbing down gameplay and reducing build diversity in all game modes but pve. Seriously, uptime on quickness has never been an isue in pvp and wvw, not even with mesmer.

This nerf caters players that are bad at playing the game tbh.

 

> @Pregnantman.8259 said:

> Lets take a typical setup with 0 Alacrity, healing mantra, mantra of potence and quickness shout. Quickness shout has %11.11 base quickness uptime (5/45), mantra of potence has %28.19 (8/[25+1+1+{2.75/2}]) and healing mantra %33.33 ([2/12]+[2/12]). In total, without accounting for quickness stack limit, its %72.51 base quickness duration. So, again without taking stack limit, %38 quickness duration gets %100 quickness uptime if one healing mantra charge is used only and all mantra of potence charges are used at same time.

>

> I don't know how much stack limit would affect uptime. But if we add Sigil of Concentration effect and Alacrity I am hoping it should be enough to even it out. As Brutaly said, it should be possible to maintain %100 quickness just by using 1 healing mantra charge, 3 potence charge spams and quickness shout on CD and under SoC effects.

 

The stack limit is rather harsh but i had 100% uptime with MoP and MoS at about 70% quickness duration when i played yesterday.

The bad part is that the rotation is just awful for pvp/wvw so support becomes secondary. In the old setup you could use retreat/SyG as fillers in your rotation which also increased support to the group thru quickness in a 600 radius and ofc ashes thru quickfire.

 

This change eliminates QF from a quickness build imo and puts more focus on a selfish quickness build.

 

its all around a very bad call.

 

Reduce cd to 4 seconds on one of those traits so FB dont have to sit and wait for the clock to tick to 8s and instead can focus on max support to the group.

 

 

[Pregnantman.8259]

Until Alacrity is removed or classes other than Mesmer can reliably do it, quickness FB should not see much play in PvE anyway. Since its already unpracticle in PvP and more so in WvW, its just for discussion's sake.

 

On PvE I just focus on dps for FB as anything else is done better by someone else. I don't play PvP and WvW much, but I would imagine FB to be better at standard Guardian support (cleanse, heal, stability etc) than quickness support.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @leasm.1279 said:

> > @Brutaly.6257 said:

> > > @leasm.1279 said:

> > > I like the change. I was in doubt what path to take, and now I'm sure to dont care anymore with quickness and can focus on tomes.

> >

> > So basically you say that reducing your options is a good change?

>

> Nah, that was a joke. :)

 

Dev's might think otherwise... something like "oh a player that thinks like us"

[Sojourner.4621]

Regardless of how you "think" guardian should play... Yes, Chronomancer can have 100% quickness uptime... so can Firebrand. Yes, firebrand has to sacrifice a lot to gain that 100% uptime... do you have ANY idea how much DPS a chrono sacrifices to gain 100% quickness? With mesmer it's considered "worth" the sacrifice, but with firebrand it is not because... what... you liked it better the other way? ANet wants you to make a sacrifice for that perma uptime because of the bonus DPS that perma quickness grants to the rest of the party, this is not a surprising change and fits with how ANet does balance. What you feel about how ANet does balance notwithstanding...

 

Edit: Also I always feel like, with this kind of thread, the answer to "Why did you nerf this build" is almost always best summed up as "Because of the game mode that you don't play (e.g. pve/pvp/wvw... pick your poison)" A lot of people are referencing this as the weaker build where wvw is concerned, or the buffs to bunker in pvp in relation to mantras, but ignoring that this is unsurprisingly aimed at pve balance because no matter how much you want it, they hate balancing game modes separately and avoid it at all costs.