Scourge is still breaking WvW...

[Roxanne.6140]

> @Justine.6351 said:

> > @SWI.4127 said:

> > > @Roxanne.6140 said:

> > > The real kings of pirate ships are zerker hammer revs. have you all Not been playing the game?

> >

> > Somehow still flying under the nerf radar

>

> Amusing considering hammer rev would do -40% damage if scourges wernt corrupting protection and even less damage if your scourges were corrupting enemy rev's might into weakness.

 

"_Deli.1302

Pirate ship = range meta

Two groups just stand and hurl range attacks at each other, like a battle between two pirate ships.

2 years ago_

"

1200-900=300

300=900/3 (1/3)

[Aplethoraof.2643]

Why not stop zerging and start making smaller groups to take objectives. Even if you have half-competant players (I wouldn't describe describe myself as a excellent player) you can do just fine, if not more than a zerg. Avoid enemy zergs, take objectives, bring flame rams. Work with 3-10 players, its really excellent.

 

Kill the zerg meta, kill the pirate-ship battles.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Pirate ship meta is more desirable than melee train meta any day because it can be countered with a couple of classes that would render the heavy artillery offenders useless. People's problem is they simply either don't want to play the classes, or groups won't allow them.

 

One of the worst things about WvW during the first 2-3 years was the unstoppable melee train with unlimited stability.. the very play that these "scourge complainers" want to go back to. There is nothing fun or desirable about a melee ball running around nearly invincible, especially now that resistance is spammable to create 100% up time.

 

Anet definitely took the right direction in allowing players to finally blow up the melee train.

[Coldtart.4785]

> @Justine.6351 said:

> > @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

>

> No one cares about scourge damage. They care about losing all boons and having all conditions because the people who picked up the game yesterday learned from other average players how to press f1-f5 simultaneously.

>

> If there were half as many necromancers and scourge shade skills had a global cooldown people wouldn't be half as moody about the current wvw scene. Scourge ratio is both the cause and symptom of an extremely rewarding and easy to play build.

 

Again, how do you plan on doing that when you only have 900 range max on all your aoe boon strips? Scourge is pretty good at range vs melee but utterly worthless at range vs range. Pirate ship is a meta where all players are engaging range vs range. Do the math; any switched on group will bomb your scourges into the stone age the moment they get in range and you won't be able to do a thing about it because scourge has the worst defense play of any class in the game.

 

Spellbreaker enforces the pirate ship meta with winds; rev wins the pirate ship fights with its hammer.

[Jski.6180]

Is scourge still striping all the boons? Yes? This its still braking wvw.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > @Justine.6351 said:

> > > @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > > What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

> >

> > No one cares about scourge damage. They care about losing all boons and having all conditions because the people who picked up the game yesterday learned from other average players how to press f1-f5 simultaneously.

> >

> > If there were half as many necromancers and scourge shade skills had a global cooldown people wouldn't be half as moody about the current wvw scene. Scourge ratio is both the cause and symptom of an extremely rewarding and easy to play build.

>

> Again, how do you plan on doing that when you only have 900 range max on all your aoe boon strips? Scourge is pretty good at range vs melee but utterly worthless at range vs range. Pirate ship is a meta where all players are engaging range vs range. Do the math; any switched on group will bomb your scourges into the stone age the moment they get in range and you won't be able to do a thing about it because scourge has the worst defense play of any class in the game.

>

> Spellbreaker enforces the pirate ship meta with winds; rev wins the pirate ship fights with its hammer.

Yeah except you are missing the fact that 90% of the ranged on both ships will be running scourge with the same range limitations. The little extra range from for example revs is negated by time, because people manouver, dodge and heal and reflect continously.

 

Will this shift in the future? Possibly. Maybe the new power roaming meta will spill over into the zerg. But it hasnt done so yet because *scourge are kitten op in the zerg*.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I love reading necro's subsection sometimes. Because despite their cries and bitching I see countless many of them roaming/blobbing on wvw, participating in spvp and doing fractals. Reaper used to be hard to play and very punishing but this new cheese for necro is just plain stupid. I mean, corrupting 4 boons with just a single fart?

[Roxanne.6140]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > @Justine.6351 said:

> > > @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > > What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

> >

> > No one cares about scourge damage. They care about losing all boons and having all conditions because the people who picked up the game yesterday learned from other average players how to press f1-f5 simultaneously.

> >

> > If there were half as many necromancers and scourge shade skills had a global cooldown people wouldn't be half as moody about the current wvw scene. Scourge ratio is both the cause and symptom of an extremely rewarding and easy to play build.

>

> Again, how do you plan on doing that when you only have 900 range max on all your aoe boon strips? Scourge is pretty good at range vs melee but utterly worthless at range vs range. Pirate ship is a meta where all players are engaging range vs range. Do the math; any switched on group will bomb your scourges into the stone age the moment they get in range and you won't be able to do a thing about it because scourge has the worst defense play of any class in the game.

>

> Spellbreaker enforces the pirate ship meta with winds; rev wins the pirate ship fights with its hammer.

 

There isn't a point in arguing I guess. After these people run out of making sense, they will create another thread to say essentially the same thing with different words. I've been through this so many times in the history of this forum rofl

[Coldtart.4785]

> @Dawdler.8521 said:

> > @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > > @Justine.6351 said:

> > > > @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > > > What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

> > >

> > > No one cares about scourge damage. They care about losing all boons and having all conditions because the people who picked up the game yesterday learned from other average players how to press f1-f5 simultaneously.

> > >

> > > If there were half as many necromancers and scourge shade skills had a global cooldown people wouldn't be half as moody about the current wvw scene. Scourge ratio is both the cause and symptom of an extremely rewarding and easy to play build.

> >

> > Again, how do you plan on doing that when you only have 900 range max on all your aoe boon strips? Scourge is pretty good at range vs melee but utterly worthless at range vs range. Pirate ship is a meta where all players are engaging range vs range. Do the math; any switched on group will bomb your scourges into the stone age the moment they get in range and you won't be able to do a thing about it because scourge has the worst defense play of any class in the game.

> >

> > Spellbreaker enforces the pirate ship meta with winds; rev wins the pirate ship fights with its hammer.

> Yeah except you are missing the fact that 90% of the ranged on both ships will be running scourge with the same range limitations. The little extra range from for example revs is negated by time, because people manouver, dodge and heal and reflect continously.

>

> Will this shift in the future? Possibly. Maybe the new power roaming meta will spill over into the zerg. But it hasnt done so yet because *scourge are kitten op in the zerg*.

 

Maneuvering in combat makes longer range even more important. I've used scourge in a fight vs a proper pirate ship comp using revs and eles as their range dps and my observation was that any time I stuck to 1200 and just poked with staff marks I could get out safely; any time I got more adventurous and tried to use a shade I was 100-0 faster than you can say 'necro is easy to focus fire'. There was no condi damage or even boon strips on my combat log; it was all power hits from revs and eles. Again, being outranged _is_ scourge's weakness. An outranged scourge is nothing but a punching bag. Why would I settle for 90% of my dps being scourges when I could have 90% of my dps being something that counters scourge 10:0?

[Shadowresli.3782]

> @Aplethoraof.2643 said:

> Why not stop zerging and start making smaller groups to take objectives. Even if you have half-competant players (I wouldn't describe describe myself as a excellent player) you can do just fine, if not more than a zerg. Avoid enemy zergs, take objectives, bring flame rams. Work with 3-10 players, its really excellent.

>

> Kill the zerg meta, kill the pirate-ship battles.

 

who cares about objectives in this day and age? and for taking objectives you can field 10 bearbow core rangers, so this is massivly off topic

 

> @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

> Pirate ship meta is more desirable than melee train meta any day because it can be countered with a couple of classes that would render the heavy artillery offenders useless. People's problem is they simply either don't want to play the classes, or groups won't allow them.

>

> One of the worst things about WvW during the first 2-3 years was the unstoppable melee train with unlimited stability.. the very play that these "scourge complainers" want to go back to. There is nothing fun or desirable about a melee ball running around nearly invincible, especially now that resistance is spammable to create 100% up time.

>

> Anet definitely took the right direction in allowing players to finally blow up the melee train.

 

i have to heavily disagree. what makes it so derirable to run around an enemy zerg for 20 minutes spamming fields, then engaging and kill/die. and then rince and repeat. in the god old days you could have 3 or more engangements in this timeframe. for someone who has limited playtime, this is neither interesting nor fun

[Coldtart.4785]

> @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

> One of the worst things about WvW during the first 2-3 years was the unstoppable melee train with unlimited stability.. the very play that these "scourge complainers" want to go back to. There is nothing fun or desirable about a melee ball running around nearly invincible, especially now that resistance is spammable to create 100% up time.

 

In what universe do you live in that people were running 4-5 guards per party during vanilla? Do you realise that the vanilla meta was 50-50 split melee and ranged? Or that the first ever successful pirate ship comp was run by VR in 2013? Or that there was a third role in vanilla dedicated to hunting enemy backlines because otherwise they'd completely dominate all fights?

[XenesisII.1540]

Seems some people need a history lesson.

 

The game had some semblance of balance between melee and range back before HoT.

During that time was the hammer melee train meta, back when there weren't as much boons or rather greater access to boons as there are today. The groups usually comprised of frontline melee train, with a backline of casters. The melee train was very much beatable back in those days and all you had to do was actually move to avoid the train, and cc/bombed on them or their backline which helped sustain them. They weren't invincible, they weren't running 100% uptime on protection and resistance. You blast might and ran in, coordinated your stability so you didn't get stuck in cc's, call for cleanses and called for water to blast for heals. It was a matter of timing and catching them with their pants down and unloading. There was actual counter play and not brainless spamming of conditions.

 

Then we shifted to the pirateship extreme.

Four months before HoT launched we got the infamous patch that changed combat forever, traits, stats, conditions, stacks, boons etc. We ended up with pirate ship because stability was turned to garbage with stacks, stripped away instantly with cc's, melee destroyed on incoming, with aoe's and conditions being much more damaging. We ended up with zergs facing off by throwing bombs and cc's in the middle and hoping some poor shmuck stood in the red too long.

 

Then we shifted to the boonsharing extreme.

HoT came along and upped the ante on boons and conditions, the introduction of resistance and revenants that helped give boons more uptime as well as mesmers. Necros and elementalist were moved to front/midline with tempest(who spammed out even more boons) and reapers, stability got fixed to better deal with cc bombs, but now corruption was taking over to try and break boonsharing, and continued on when boonsharing was broken with nerfs to mesmers and revs. Epidemic also ended up getting nerfs after to bring it in line. We were finally returning to a balance between both, despite conditions still ruining the overall joy of combat for many.

 

Now PoF releases and we swing things back to pirateship side.

Now we have the fat bubble that strips boons and necros corrupting even more and even easier than before. Is it as bad as the first version of pirateship? no because stability isn't absolutely broken as before, and players are running more cleanses. Sure as hell can lead to some boring face offs though.

 

There are many specs that play in melee and mid range, you cannot ignore those and think full range is the way to go, melee should be able to counter range if they can get close enough, while range should be able to counter melee with their own group of melee to stay out of their grasp and kill them. These days it's brainless strip them of all their boons, then condition bomb them and watch them fall over.

 

Players want balance between them both, not extremes.

 

[santso.9201]

In before ppl notice that scourge actually does more dmg on melee than range due double cleave...its the rev hammer what makes most range dmg(pumping 15-30k instant dmg to group every 4s) or ele meteors doing 300k dmg to group with single cast.

[intox.6347]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> > @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

> > One of the worst things about WvW during the first 2-3 years was the unstoppable melee train with unlimited stability.. the very play that these "scourge complainers" want to go back to. There is nothing fun or desirable about a melee ball running around nearly invincible, especially now that resistance is spammable to create 100% up time.

>

> In what universe do you live in that people were running 4-5 guards per party during vanilla? Do you realise that the vanilla meta was 50-50 split melee and ranged? Or that the first ever successful pirate ship comp was run by VR in 2013? Or that there was a third role in vanilla dedicated to hunting enemy backlines because otherwise they'd completely dominate all fights?

 

I was playing guard in that times too, and it looked more like 20-25 guards 10-15 wars then other (cele staff ele, necros, veil mesm ) + nonmeta running around bearbows, thieves, engis.... backline dps starts to appear... but in that times ppl play pvt / cele guards , pvt wars ... nobody used condi against that and power builds didnt burn them in few sec when they have semi-bunker builds... that were times of zerg surfing...

[Aeolus.3615]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > > You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> > > (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> > > by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> > > **Absolutely! None**

> > >

> > > I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> > > **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

> > >

> > >

> > To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

>

> I tested it in wvw and pvp: i was able to 1 shot more than 1 players including Necromancer. What completely blew me always is having players accusing me of exploiting and hacking. Talk about ignoring the core problem of wvw+pvp lol

>

> So Anet buffs Necromancer yet ignoring one of gw2 crucial core problems>1 shotting??

>

> Not only their Favorite Classes: Thief+Mesmer can already 1 shot players: they reintroduce and included 1 shot Elementalist into their balance philosophy. Not only that, Anet took 1 shotting even further by making Elementalist 1 shot more than 1 players at the same time.

>

> **UNBELIEVABLE!!**

>

> What competitive game company would dare allow this incompetent balance design in their game?

>

> (When Necromancer make it into the list of 1 shotting, let me know)

>

> Until than,

>

> **Off to Gw2 competitors' with more gw2 former players including more new players. Gw2 Competitors who prioritize and take healthy, fun, mechanical skill Input with Risk+Reward and challenge into their game seriously**

>

> -- **MAKING EXCLUSIONS, EXCEPTIONS, SHOWING FAVORITISM AND IGNORING CORE PROBLEMS, ARE WHAT WILL TAKE GW2 QUICKLY INTO ITS OWN GRAVE**

>

> **COMPETITOR"S AWAITS WITH SOLUTIONS**

 

gw2 is not competitive in the normal ways..... classes need to be like that easy to play offensive to carry players, since game was designed for bad players and players who want to have successwith low effort.

 

Remember Mo words "A game where people that dont like mmo will love it".~

 

It is moslty towards, show offers than some one who likes decent pvp... dont expect decent and skill towards players, its just who has the best gimmick and uses it better.

[reddie.5861]

> @Arlette.9684 said:

> It seems Scourges were built with the idea of being absolutely bonkers in close quarters but at a great disadvantage in ranged fights. I find that approach to be quite balanced. Introduce a strong side and a weak side to all classes and make each class hard countered by another promotes comp diversity in an interesting way.

 

 

sadly all ranged classes are not allowed in this meta.

 

[juno.1840]

Scourge didn't break anything -- it's not a problem. This is simply another round of evolution. Only the fittest survive. Adapt or die.

 

There are multiple changes with PoF that caused the evolution -- it's not just Scourge. It seems that Scourge is the scapegoat though, which is undeserved.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @juno.1840 said:

> Scourge didn't break anything -- it's not a problem. This is simply another round of evolution. Only the fittest survive. Adapt or die.

>

> There are multiple changes with PoF that caused the evolution -- it's not just Scourge. It seems that Scourge is the scapegoat though, which is undeserved.

 

Dont take my low effor blob gameplay? no worry Anet loves it.

 

 

Issue is not scourge to tell the truth, is how Anet loves the condi spam, instead of fix the pve design of the game prefers noob spam design, and counters it with another lame design 30sec more builds with resistance.

Both are awfull...

 

IF Anet bring back hexes and make some classes like they were working on gw1 game would be far better, but it would be to hard for most "i want this easy " players.

 

 

 

 

[EvilSardine.9635]

Scourge seriously is making WvW not fun at all. If one or two scourges stumble into a fight and literally spam abilities it can down people too easily. YOU CAN LITERALLY SMASH BUTTONS. There's no other class that lets you do this. What on earth was Anet thinking?

 

 

[ilmau.9781]

> @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> > (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> > by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> > **Absolutely! None**

> >

> > I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> > **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

> >

> >

> To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

 

> @"Esprit Dumort.3109" said:

> Scourge is a high risk high reward class. With little to no mobility, stability, or teleports, the class does heavy damage and counters the high boon spam, and relying on the support from the team. In addition, the Shades are static and a highly mobile zerg can easily avoid the Sand Shades.

>

> OP, you didn't even explain why you think Scourge is game breaking in WvW, but make claims that it is. Please detail why you think so.

 

well it is kinda clear to understand, it is a retarded ranged pirate sheep meta class who everyone can play just being in the backlines and spamming shades in front and F2-3-4-5... which is dead boring mate, really dead boring.