NCsoft Q3 2017 Earnings

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

it will be very interesting to see what the next 2 quarters on these reports will be like. after the last week . #bestforbusiness

[Zaklex.6308]

FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

[troops.8276]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

 

Says Sep 30 further into the report.

Pof released 22nd.

 

 

[Tekey.7946]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

 

No, PoF was released on September 22. Still in Q3 and it also covers all pre purchases.

 

I think most of the current players pre-purchased it anyway since it's an MMORPG and you would want to experience the newest content with your friends right away. You don't want to wait weeks and months for reviews (which eventually don't appear at all) until the content is old already.

Also, many people said that it basically includes a Season Pass for the next Living World Season, so you'll need it anyway to continue playing the newest content.

 

 

The only reason I could think of why the numbers could increase in Q4 is the introduction of RNG mount lootboxes (and the large number of gem store mount skins you could already see a few minutes/hours later).

[Zaklex.6308]

> @troops.8276 said:

> > @Zaklex.6308 said:

> > FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

>

> Says Sep 30 further into the report.

> Pof released 22nd.

>

>

 

Yep, and if corporate accounting in South Korea works just like here in the US then those 8 days will be pushed into the Q4 reporting, you might have pre-purchase numbers in Q3 but you certainly wouldn't want to split sales between quarters...but who knows unless they specifically tell you it includes PoF sales from 09/22 until 09/30.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Tekey.7946 said:

> > @Zaklex.6308 said:

> > FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

>

> No, PoF was released on September 22. Still in Q3 and it also covers all pre purchases.

>

> I think most of the current players pre-purchased it anyway since it's an MMORPG and you would want to experience the newest content with your friends right away. You don't want to wait weeks and months for reviews (which eventually don't appear at all) until the content is old already.

> Also, many people said that it basically includes a Season Pass for the next Living World Season, so you'll need it anyway to continue playing the newest content.

>

>

> The only reason I could think of why the numbers could increase in Q4 is the introduction of RNG mount lootboxes (and the large number of gem store mount skins you could already see a few minutes/hours later).

 

Does it? Because I'm pretty sure they didnt count prepurchase for HoT until end of the release year.

[Tekey.7946]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Does it? Because I'm pretty sure they didnt count prepurchase for HoT until end of the release year.

 

If I remember correctly, the pre-purchases are covered in the quarter of the release.

 

HoT was released in October -> Q4

PoF was released in September -> Q3

[Leablo.2651]

Also worth noting that PoF has no retail box, so it is unlikely that the xmas season will meaningfully improve sales via gifting.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

This is the only game in the whole mmo gaming industry to release an expansion without instanced, difficult coop content aka dungeons/elite dungeons. Dungeons and raids are the main endgame in most, if not all mmo's. Neither were included in the expansion.

 

I won't talk about everyone cuz we all have our own opinions about what we like or don't. But when **_i _**see a new expansion announcement, and all what's shown is open world content which relies on NOTHING ELSE but grinding Masteries and worthless achievement, lets just say that not only does it kill my hype for the expansion, but it disappoints me to the point of not wanting to play.

 

Anet does not create proper expansions for gw2 in my opinion. Grinding masteries and usless achievements IS NOT ENDGAME.

[troops.8276]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> > @troops.8276 said:

> > > @Zaklex.6308 said:

> > > FYI: I'm pretty sure the 3rd quarter ended BEFORE PoF dropped, those are probably a reflection of purchases made in preparation for PoF. Wait for 4Q numbers to see how PoF did.

> >

> > Says Sep 30 further into the report.

> > Pof released 22nd.

> >

> >

>

> Yep, and if corporate accounting in South Korea works just like here in the US then those 8 days will be pushed into the Q4 reporting, you might have pre-purchase numbers in Q3 but you certainly wouldn't want to split sales between quarters...but who knows unless they specifically tell you it includes PoF sales from 09/22 until 09/30.

 

Seems quite misleading to put a date (sep 30) atop one column (statement of financial position) and then state that GW2 sales are up "driven by second expansion pack sales" in the sales breakdown by IP section. Would it be done because it's easier to consolidate all the expected info that way?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> This is the only game in the whole mmo gaming industry to release an expansion without instanced, difficult coop content aka dungeons/elite dungeons. Dungeons and raids are the main endgame in most, if not all mmo's. Neither were included in the expansion.

>

 

First, I must say I do want instanced content in an expansion.

Second, we will get both Raids AND Fractals soon.

Third, I wouldn't want any of those released with the expansion.

Why? Multiple reasons:

a) Elite specialization balance. We all know how imbalanced they were at release and how they are still struggling to balance them. Would you really want some challenging instanced content created for such imbalanced elite specs? And what happens when they get toned down? We tone down the content too?

b) Mastery unlocks. Raids require mastery unlocks so it makes sense to release them later, when the community already has mastery abilities unlocked. If they released them sooner, the players that could run them would be a fraction of those who wanted to causing all manners of other problems.

c) Testing by players. This is true especially for Raids, when they make Raids they take players from the community to test them. These players need access to mastery unlocks and elite specs to properly test the new Raids. This means that in order to release Raids with an expansion, they'd have to give these testers access to mastery unlocks and elite specs before release as testing takes time.

d) Festivals. We got Halloween right after release and Wintersday is only around the corner. They serve as filler content while players figure out their specs and unlock their mounts, while the testers play the new content and so on.

 

To conclude, adding challenging group content with the expansion wasn't something possible and would cause a lot of problems. Let the game and the players settle down a bit and get comfortable before the challenging content appears.

[Tekey.7946]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> Second, we will get both Raids AND Fractals soon.

 

Soon™

 

Anet: "Dungeons take too much time and effort, instead we'll release smaller fractals more often."

 

From Nov. 2013 to Nov. 2017, in **4 years**, Anet released 0 dungeons and 3 new fractal stories.

 

Yes, reworks, scalings,... and some say they had no dedicated fractal team up to some point, but Anets management is none of the players' business.

In the end there were only **3 completely new fractals in 4 years**.

 

-

-

 

The first raid wing was released in November 2015.

From Nov. 2015 to Nov. 2017, they released 4 raid wings.

 

Like Nuka Cola said, other games have new instanced content at the release of their expansion. GW2 doesn't and the pace of instanced content releases over the years doesn't make it look better. You can't let a game do the bare minimum (open world content) and expect the numbers to skyrocket.

Yes, I consider the Living World episodes to be the bare minimum, just imagine how GW2 would look like without them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Tekey.7946 said:

> From Nov. 2013 to Nov. 2017, in **4 years**, Anet released 0 dungeons and 3 new fractal stories.

 

That's one way of looking at it. The other one is 3 new fractals in 15 months (since S3 started) when they decided that the game needs instanced content.

3 completely new fractals in 15 months is 1 new fractal every 5 months. Combined with the reworks and updates it's not such a bad schedule.

Swampland is like a new fractal, Cliffside, Thaumanova and Snowblind got major reworks that completely changed their mechanics.

Now that we do not need many reworks anymore, we might get more Fractal releases.

[Tekey.7946]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Tekey.7946 said:

> > From Nov. 2013 to Nov. 2017, in **4 years**, Anet released 0 dungeons and 3 new fractal stories.

>

> That's one way of looking at it. The other one is 3 new fractals in 15 months (since S3 started) **when they decided that the game needs instanced content.**

 

So we're only looking at an specific period now because they didn't think of releasing new fractals until Season 3? Well, their fault.

It's not like you could expect an MMORPG to release new instanced content regularly. **Especially** since one of the points we're discussing here is GW2 not releasing dungeons/fractals with their expansions.

 

In the history of GW2, 4 years consisted of reworks and 3 new fractals. No matter who thought of something at which point.

 

 

> 3 completely new fractals in 15 months is 1 new fractal every 5 months. Combined with the reworks and updates it's not such a bad schedule.

> Swampland is like a new fractal, Cliffside, Thaumanova and Snowblind got major reworks that completely changed their mechanics.

> Now that we do not need many reworks anymore, **we might get more Fractal releases.**

 

Time will tell. I could imagine the time of loose speculation on what **could** be and hoping for better times is over now for some players. Other parts of the game don't look great either: PoF was released, Season 4 will come and they're **still** releasing HoT legendaries.

Anet will see how the next quarters will work out for them, it's impossible to guess what the future will look like at this point.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Tekey.7946 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Tekey.7946 said:

> > > From Nov. 2013 to Nov. 2017, in **4 years**, Anet released 0 dungeons and 3 new fractal stories.

> >

> > That's one way of looking at it. The other one is 3 new fractals in 15 months (since S3 started) **when they decided that the game needs instanced content.**

>

> So we're only looking at an specific period now because they didn't think of releasing new fractals until Season 3? Well, their fault.

> It's not like you could expect an MMORPG to release new instanced content regularly. **Especially** since one of the points we're discussing here is GW2 not releasing dungeons/fractals with their expansions.

>

> In the history of GW2, 4 years consisted of reworks and 3 new fractals. No matter who thought of something at which point.

>

>

> > 3 completely new fractals in 15 months is 1 new fractal every 5 months. Combined with the reworks and updates it's not such a bad schedule.

> > Swampland is like a new fractal, Cliffside, Thaumanova and Snowblind got major reworks that completely changed their mechanics.

> > Now that we do not need many reworks anymore, **we might get more Fractal releases.**

>

> Time will tell. I could imagine the time of loose speculation on what **could** be and hoping for better times is over now for some players. Other parts of the game don't look great either: PoF was released, Season 4 will come and they're **still** releasing HoT legendaries.

> Anet will see how the next quarters will work out for them, it's impossible to guess what the future will look like at this point.

 

I wonder what all those players looking for instanced were doing from November 2013 to November 2015 (Raid release), and for Fractal players more specifically from November 2013 to July 2016

[Healix.5819]

> @Tekey.7946 said:

> Like Nuka Cola said, other games have new instanced content at the release of their expansion. GW2 doesn't and the pace of instanced content releases over the years doesn't make it look better. You can't let a game do the bare minimum (open world content) and expect the numbers to skyrocket.

> Yes, I consider the Living World episodes to be the bare minimum, just imagine how GW2 would look like without them.

 

The lack of instanced group content is simply down to the lack of population that actually plays it. Even WoW couldn't justify raid development, as less than 20% of the population actually bothered to play it. That's where LFR came in, which is an easy-mode guaranteed win version or raids, and now the majority plays them. If GW2 had an actual dungeon finder - people don't want to LFG, they want to queue in while doing their own thing - you can bet the population would be higher, but that's not enough. People want to follow the leader, so it'll never work without the trinity; specifically, someone to lead the way and tank for them.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Tekey.7946 said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > @Tekey.7946 said:

> > > > From Nov. 2013 to Nov. 2017, in **4 years**, Anet released 0 dungeons and 3 new fractal stories.

> > >

> > > That's one way of looking at it. The other one is 3 new fractals in 15 months (since S3 started) **when they decided that the game needs instanced content.**

> >

> > So we're only looking at an specific period now because they didn't think of releasing new fractals until Season 3? Well, their fault.

> > It's not like you could expect an MMORPG to release new instanced content regularly. **Especially** since one of the points we're discussing here is GW2 not releasing dungeons/fractals with their expansions.

> >

> > In the history of GW2, 4 years consisted of reworks and 3 new fractals. No matter who thought of something at which point.

> >

> >

> > > 3 completely new fractals in 15 months is 1 new fractal every 5 months. Combined with the reworks and updates it's not such a bad schedule.

> > > Swampland is like a new fractal, Cliffside, Thaumanova and Snowblind got major reworks that completely changed their mechanics.

> > > Now that we do not need many reworks anymore, **we might get more Fractal releases.**

> >

> > Time will tell. I could imagine the time of loose speculation on what **could** be and hoping for better times is over now for some players. Other parts of the game don't look great either: PoF was released, Season 4 will come and they're **still** releasing HoT legendaries.

> > Anet will see how the next quarters will work out for them, it's impossible to guess what the future will look like at this point.

>

> I wonder what all those players looking for instanced were doing from November 2013 to November 2015 (Raid release), and for Fractal players more specifically from November 2013 to July 2016

 

It's a bit of a red herring. It may or may not be the case that other MMOs rely on that kind of instanced content but GW2 doesn't, never has and was never designed to. There's an argument to be made that it's been by trying to pander retro-actively to that demographic that the game has fallen between two stools, pleasing neither the traditionalists nor the progressives.

 

Either way, neither the previous nor the current development direction included dungeons at all post-launch and includes Fractals and Raids only as a side-activity. The full thrust of the marketing department over the past five years has been on open world via the Living Story/World and, for a while, on e-Sports. That could change but I would suggest that even if it does it would be unlikely to change in the direction of reverting to the model of MMOs GW2 sought to subvert in the first place.

 

Now, if we were talking about expanding on Southsun Survival to build a full-scale Survival Arena mode then we might be onto something. No point jumping last decade's bandwagon when you can jump the current one - especially if you can argue you actually got there first.

[Rush is Right.9723]

POF expansion did not offer much and cash shop has same old stuff year after year. I used to buy stuff regularly, now I have not purchased anything in two years. I also have not bought POF because reviews are horrible and it sounds very boring and not challenging. HOT is replayable and challenging and makes you a better player. I don't want mounts and I don't care how great it looks. I want exciting gameplay and group open world content. I will only buy POF when this happens and by that time it will be heavily discounted so not much help to Anet. I do not understand Anet's expansion strategy. They put out expansions so seldom they have to be big and epic to tide all players over until the next one, not play through once and done. Right now, it just seems like Anet is on oxygen and barely breathing. Vanilla game was great though easy and HOT was a challenging success. POF is short and incomplete and a step backward unfortunately. I find it amazing all the fanboys on these forums who try to talk up POF just to justify their spending $30 on this crap. Face it, you got taken, at least for now. GW1 had large separate expansions that were increasing difficult and were quite large, adding characters, masteries, and new armor/weapons and new races. That's what we need and are not getting. Anet seems to think that money is a problem with the playerbase, but most of the players are older and have money to spend on good/great expansions as we realize that we save monthly. $50-$75 once a year or every two years is not much and many players will easily pay up including myself, but the product quality and content have to fit the price.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:

> > Huh, I thought Arenanet wasn't part of NCSoft anymore, GW franchise doesn't appear in NCSoft's page anymore.

>

> Ncsoft gave anet more freedom about gw2 and the game is now published by arenanet but the company and the money still belong to ncsoft

 

Well that explains all the gambling stuff placed recently in the cash shop.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Healix.5819 said:

> Here's a chart of the earnings and with reddit and forum activity. PoF launched at the very end of the quarter, so it's essentially only pre-purchase sales, but judging by the current activity, which is only a month into the fourth quarter, they're on track to return to pre-PoF levels and likely continue on the usual decline. The increase in activity from PoF is about 65% of what HoT saw, but to be fair, HoT had a year-long hype train and major advertising. PoF has seen about 66% of HoT's first quarter sales so far, though keep in mind that HoT had an entire quarter of sales.

 

I don't know if you've seen this picture from reddit:

 


 

What is interesting is that Path of Fire seems to have similar sales to the quarter after Guild Wars: Nightfall release

I don't know how accurate it is

[troops.8276]

It is currently unclear what exactly the spike in sales Q3 is composed of. Obviously it's because of PoF but is it pre-order, first week of sales or just a greater interest in anticipation of PoF releasing.

[Healix.5819]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> What is interesting is that Path of Fire seems to have similar sales to the quarter after Guild Wars: Nightfall release

> I don't know how accurate it is

 

That actually is the quarter Nightfall launched (October 26, 2006 / 4Q06). They adjusted the numbers using the exchange rate at the time, the original being 18635 KRW (in millions), compared to 20145 for PoF. For a very rough box sales comparison, both actually sold around 200k copies (on top of their normal sales), earning 10 million USD for Nightfall ($50) and 6 million for PoF ($30). I wouldn't be surprised if GW1 actually had a higher population, whereas GW2 is making more money due to gem sales, but also has a much higher production cost.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Healix.5819 said:

> > Here's a chart of the earnings and with reddit and forum activity. PoF launched at the very end of the quarter, so it's essentially only pre-purchase sales, but judging by the current activity, which is only a month into the fourth quarter, they're on track to return to pre-PoF levels and likely continue on the usual decline. The increase in activity from PoF is about 65% of what HoT saw, but to be fair, HoT had a year-long hype train and major advertising. PoF has seen about 66% of HoT's first quarter sales so far, though keep in mind that HoT had an entire quarter of sales.

>

> I don't know if you've seen this picture from reddit:

>

> 

>

> What is interesting is that Path of Fire seems to have similar sales to the quarter after Guild Wars: Nightfall release

> I don't know how accurate it is

 

this is very accurate and backed up in this video posted over on reddit .. 14:26 begin watching . and you can even see that other chart on their as well.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Healix.5819 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > What is interesting is that Path of Fire seems to have similar sales to the quarter after Guild Wars: Nightfall release

> > I don't know how accurate it is

>

> That actually is the quarter Nightfall launched (October 26, 2006 / 4Q06). They adjusted the numbers using the exchange rate at the time, the original being 18635 KRW (in millions), compared to 20145 for PoF. For a very rough box sales comparison, both actually sold around 200k copies (on top of their normal sales), earning 10 million USD for Nightfall ($50) and 6 million for PoF ($30). I wouldn't be surprised if GW1 actually had a higher population, whereas GW2 is making more money due to gem sales, but also has a much higher production cost.

 

I thought so because it didn't make sense to have that big spike without an expansion. I think that comparison between GW1 and GW2 shows us the difference between gem store and expansion focus but we'll make a more accurate comparison once Q4 2017 results are out, Nightfall, much like Heart of Thorns had 3 months of sales, plus the Christmas sale. It will all be interesting to see.

 

> @WARIORSCHARGEING.2637 said:

> this is very accurate and backed up in this video posted over on reddit .. 14:26 begin watching . and you can even see that other chart on their as well.

 

 

The big question is, would expansions in this day and era be capable of bringing the same amount of money as gem store/cash shop deals?

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Healix.5819 said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > What is interesting is that Path of Fire seems to have similar sales to the quarter after Guild Wars: Nightfall release

> > > I don't know how accurate it is

> >

> > That actually is the quarter Nightfall launched (October 26, 2006 / 4Q06). They adjusted the numbers using the exchange rate at the time, the original being 18635 KRW (in millions), compared to 20145 for PoF. For a very rough box sales comparison, both actually sold around 200k copies (on top of their normal sales), earning 10 million USD for Nightfall ($50) and 6 million for PoF ($30). I wouldn't be surprised if GW1 actually had a higher population, whereas GW2 is making more money due to gem sales, but also has a much higher production cost.

>

> I thought so because it didn't make sense to have that big spike without an expansion. I think that comparison between GW1 and GW2 shows us the difference between gem store and expansion focus but we'll make a more accurate comparison once Q4 2017 results are out, Nightfall, much like Heart of Thorns had 3 months of sales, plus the Christmas sale. It will all be interesting to see.

>

> > @WARIORSCHARGEING.2637 said:

> > this is very accurate and backed up in this video posted over on reddit .. 14:26 begin watching . and you can even see that other chart on their as well.

>

>

> The big question is, would expansions in this day and era be capable of bringing the same amount of money as gem store/cash shop deals?

 

you REALLY need to WATCH that video dude !!! that video is very CURRENT and goes all the way back to guild wars it self . current pof and hot is at the almost end of the video

 

fully laid out in clear and easy to under stand details even . not only that but given from what i saw of the whole thing well . lets say anet wants to keep floating they need to change and come up to date and get out of the stone age ideas more ways than one. in order to bring back their cash flow they had say back on hot. better way to say this is they need a band aid and soon .