[Minor PoF Spoiler] How long has Balthazar been chained?

[hornswroggle.8023]

I'm contradicted about the aspect of time scale in the PoF story. How long has Balthazar been in chains before Rytlock found and freed him?

 

Here's the deal:

---

Kormir said that the gods retreated, because they could not stand against the Elder Dragons.

* The Exodus was staged after the first "Abaddon-War" that evaporated the Crystal Sea. (Year 0 of the Mouvelian Calendar; 1300 years ago), Abaddon was imprisoned. (5 "true" Gods remain)

 

> ----- Fast froward 1100 years -----

 

* In the second "Abaddon War" Avatars of the Gods (including an Avatar of Balthazar) aid the sunspears, lead by Kormir, to stop abaddon from breaking free. Abaddon is ultimately defeated and his power is released in an explosion.

* Kormir steps in to absorb the vast majority of it, ascending to goodhood. (Completing the Pantheon again, consisting of 6 "true" Gods)

* However enough energy slipped though the cracks to awaken Primordus, ushering in the current cycle of Awakening. The one that the Gods sought to prevent by retreating in the Exodus. The Avatars of the Gods fade, effectively forming a second Exodus.

 

> ----- Fast froward 250 years -----

 

* Kormir tells the pact commander that Balthazar was against the Exodus because he saw it as cowardly running away. Because the other gods didn't want him to mess with the Dragons they stripped him of his power (oddly enough that was way easier than with Abaddon, but i digress)

 

> ----- Arriving today -----

 

When did the Gods actually hold the council to debate wether to go on Exodus or not, which resulted in Balthazars rebellion?

I would assume it was after the first Abaddon-War - the Exodus the Mouvelian Calendar is based on.

That would mean, when Rytlock found him, Balthazar had been in chains for over 1300 years! Which would mean we had a Pantheon of 4 for over a millennium.

However even Kormir still refers to a Pantheon of "The Six", and before the "news" about Balthazars downfall that made sense, even though she herself was literally 1000 years late to the party. But even if the Gods "lingered" until Kormir joined them and then truly **left** (causing the Avatars to fade) that would still leave an incomplete Pantheon for 250 years.

 

I'd go on a limb here and assume that Balthazar is replaced by now (by a deity unknown to us) just to take care of his realms of dominion. I know the Gods can shift them around, but there is a reason why they are six. (otherwise there could just be one holding all dominions)

But when was he actually replaced? Directly after 0 AE? After Kormir joined the council? Or just recently, either within the last 50 years or after Balthazars defeat atop the Bazaar of Kodash?

Or do we have to push this into the Mists-Excuse-Corner: "Time doesn't exist in the Mists. We can't know 'when', in Tyrian timescale, the Gods contemplated the Exodus."?

 

Happy discussion!

[Fluffball.8307]

There isn't much point to a spoiler tag if you write a complete spoiler in the title.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @hornswroggle.8023 said:

> When did the Gods actually hold the council to debate wether to go on Exodus or not, which resulted in Balthazars rebellion?

> I would assume it was after the first Abaddon-War - the Exodus the Mouvelian Calendar is based on.

 

Given that Kormir was part of that council, it was after Nightfall. Given that the context is that the Elder Dragons _were already awake or waking up_, I would be between Primordus' and Jormag's awakening. So ~150-200 years prior to GW2.

 

It was definitely after GW1 given that Balthazar's blessings were in full force, we were visiting his realm which seemed to be where he was imprisoned (the cinematic in PoF shows an environment similar to a flameless/smoldering Fissure of Woe), and IIRC there were a handful of individuals who claim to have seen Balthazar around GW1's timeframe. It would make no sense for Balthazar's fall to be pre-GW1 without **massive** retcons throughout.

[draxynnic.3719]

Pretty much as Konig says.

 

The chronology seems to be:

 

Abaddon is defeated

Dragons start to rise.

Balthaddon wants to fight.

The other gods recognise this as an 'even if we win, Tyria loses' scenario.

Balthazar rebels

Balthazar is depowered and chained.

[Yereton.8647]

One should also consider that Balthazar opened up the Portals to the Mists in Lion's Arch, after the Rising of Orr, as seen in [The Movement of the Word](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Lion.27s_Arch "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Lion.27s_Arch"). This means he had power at least 111 years ago or so.

[Ayakaru.6583]

The gods could stand against the elder dragons, maybe not 1v1, but would not dare do so because a confrontation would be more destructive than having the dragons their way.

I think Balthazar was chained up anytime after either Primirdus stirred or Orr rose from the sea. There wasn't a clear reason for Balthazar to aggravate the others before they started waking up.

[Rognik.2579]

> @Yereton.8647 said:

> One should also consider that Balthazar opened up the Portals to the Mists in Lion's Arch, after the Rising of Orr, as seen in [The Movement of the Word](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Lion.27s_Arch "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Lion.27s_Arch"). This means he had power at least 111 years ago or so.

We don't know how much of that is still canon, considering that asura gates are used to get into the Mists. Some of it has been retconned, and I don't know if this is one of them.

[Westenev.5289]

Does timey wimey logic even work with the mists? I doubt anyone was counting the days (least of all balthazar), and it was very likely that mists time could work indipendant of Tyria time.

[hornswroggle.8023]

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> Does timey wimey logic even work with the mists? I doubt anyone was counting the days (least of all balthazar), and it was very likely that mists time could work indipendant of Tyria time.

 

That's why I think that "The Mists" are more of a bad excuse than anything else. That reaches from the Main story all the way to Fractals. Whenever something not quite logical happens there is some way to "escape" it with the mists.

[hornswroggle.8023]

> @Ayakaru.6583 said:

> The gods could stand against the elder dragons, maybe not 1v1, but would not dare do so because a confrontation would be more destructive than having the dragons their way.

> I think Balthazar was chained up anytime after either Primirdus stirred or Orr rose from the sea. There wasn't a clear reason for Balthazar to aggravate the others before they started waking up.

 

See... that's the point: Kormir says the Gods left because of the Dragons, yet the dragons only started to emerge 1100 AE, after the events of Nightfall. Which leaves the question when the "real" Exodus actually took place.

At 0 BE the gods "left" Tyria, but only in a very physical manner, they stopped literally "walking among the mortals". After Nightfall, the gods basically left **again**, this time even leaving the Mists "near" Tyria as we know it (Save for Kormir, who stuck around another 250 years to sort her book collection).

[Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931]

Human players can choose who blesses them at birth, I don't know if Balthazar would still be capable of blessing a human when trapped, so it may be very recent.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931" said:

> Human players can choose who blesses them at birth, I don't know if Balthazar would still be capable of blessing a human when trapped, so it may be very recent.

 

The line is "_Everyone said_ I was blessed by" X. That doesn't necessarily mean it was true. We certainly don't see any signs of actual divine intervention linked specifically to our chosen god.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931" said:

> > Human players can choose who blesses them at birth, I don't know if Balthazar would still be capable of blessing a human when trapped, so it may be very recent.

>

> The line is "_Everyone said_ I was blessed by" X. That doesn't necessarily mean it was true. We certainly don't see any signs of actual divine intervention linked specifically to our chosen god.

 

Exceeeeept there is also this:

 

> PC: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and **enjoyed your blessings** for as long as I can remember.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#In_the_instance

 

This line shows that it's more than merely "people claim I'm blessed". So that still begs the question.

 

That said, I always took the whole "the gods left their realms" but to be when the gods went silent after GW1. I largely think this because in the personal story, Priestess Rhie says:

 

> PC: Where have they gone?

> Priestess Rhie: No one knows. Not into the Mists, that's for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speaker_of_the_Dead#At_Hezran_Outcrops

 

This implies that Krytans have *some* manner of figuring out what the situation in the god realms are - possibly via the very summoning spells that Rhie uses in that instance - and have learned that they were no longer in there (this, of course, wouldn't be true in the case of Kormir however but it's also possible the investigation methods weren't fullproof).

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Exceeeeept there is also this:

>

> > PC: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and **enjoyed your blessings** for as long as I can remember.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#In_the_instance

>

> This line shows that it's more than merely "people claim I'm blessed". So that still begs the question.

Actually, it doesn't. Perhaps every time a fire is it, humans assume it to be a blessing from Balthazar. Maybe if you win the lottery, you assume it to be a blessing from your deity. The unreliable narrator you are so fond of pointing out strikes back here, as we've no idea what humans consider as blessings. Perhaps even the basic use of magic is seen as a blessing from the gods, even though the other races can do exactly the same thing without the Six's help.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Bunny Is Cthulhu.7931" said:

> > > Human players can choose who blesses them at birth, I don't know if Balthazar would still be capable of blessing a human when trapped, so it may be very recent.

> >

> > The line is "_Everyone said_ I was blessed by" X. That doesn't necessarily mean it was true. We certainly don't see any signs of actual divine intervention linked specifically to our chosen god.

>

> Exceeeeept there is also this:

>

> > PC: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and **enjoyed your blessings** for as long as I can remember.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#In_the_instance

>

> This line shows that it's more than merely "people claim I'm blessed". So that still begs the question.

>

I'm not drawing a conclusion there, just observing that the biography option is far from conclusive. For that matter, so is the PC's line. Without further specifying, the 'blessings' could be anything from being saved by Balthazar's Hounds as a baby, to squeaking out a narrow win against the first centaur they fought, to, say... victory against the Elder Dragons? Perceiving a god's involvement is not the same thing as a god being involved.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Rognik.2579 said:

> Actually, it doesn't. Perhaps every time a fire is it, humans assume it to be a blessing from Balthazar. Maybe if you win the lottery, you assume it to be a blessing from your deity. The unreliable narrator you are so fond of pointing out strikes back here, as we've no idea what humans consider as blessings. Perhaps even the basic use of magic is seen as a blessing from the gods, even though the other races can do exactly the same thing without the Six's help.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> I'm not drawing a conclusion there, just observing that the biography option is far from conclusive. For that matter, so is the PC's line. Without further specifying, the 'blessings' could be anything from being saved by Balthazar's Hounds as a baby, to squeaking out a narrow win against the first centaur they fought, to, say... victory against the Elder Dragons? Perceiving a god's involvement is not the same thing as a god being involved.

 

Most of those latter examples happen to all human Commanders, yet only those blessed by Balthazar say that line during The Sacrifice (which honestly should have been said during Flashpoint as well). If these things were all viewed as blessings by Balthazar by humans in general, then every human should have that line not just those blessed by Balthazar via biography - similarly, the line from Facing the Truth ("That's Kormir! She blessed me at birth, but I never thought I'd—hail to you, Goddess of Truth." versus "Kormir... I've seen statues and shrines, but I never imagined--hail, Goddess of Truth. We need your help.") would be less definitive.

 

While there is room to argue such, it feels like... I guess "splitting hairs" would be the right common phrase.

 

And @Rognik specifically: I doubt magic is still viewed as a blessing from the gods since the nature of magic has been long revealed.

 

EDIT: Also, based on [dialogue from Cathedral of Silence for those blessed by Grenth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_%28story%29#Dialogue) I would argue that the biography seems to be assuming not just an actual blessing by the god in question, but the PC devoting a lot of time to the god; which makes the lack of reaction in Flashpoint even weirder.

 

I am also wondering if the Judge's first line is different to humans blessed by Grenth, given they are different to humans compared to non-humans

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @Rognik.2579 said:

> > Actually, it doesn't. Perhaps every time a fire is it, humans assume it to be a blessing from Balthazar. Maybe if you win the lottery, you assume it to be a blessing from your deity. The unreliable narrator you are so fond of pointing out strikes back here, as we've no idea what humans consider as blessings. Perhaps even the basic use of magic is seen as a blessing from the gods, even though the other races can do exactly the same thing without the Six's help.

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > I'm not drawing a conclusion there, just observing that the biography option is far from conclusive. For that matter, so is the PC's line. Without further specifying, the 'blessings' could be anything from being saved by Balthazar's Hounds as a baby, to squeaking out a narrow win against the first centaur they fought, to, say... victory against the Elder Dragons? Perceiving a god's involvement is not the same thing as a god being involved.

>

> Most of those latter examples happen to all human Commanders, yet only those blessed by Balthazar say that line during The Sacrifice (which honestly should have been said during Flashpoint as well). If these things were all viewed as blessings by Balthazar by humans in general, then every human should have that line not just those blessed by Balthazar via biography - similarly, the line from Facing the Truth ("That's Kormir! She blessed me at birth, but I never thought I'd—hail to you, Goddess of Truth." versus "Kormir... I've seen statues and shrines, but I never imagined--hail, Goddess of Truth. We need your help.") would be less definitive.

 

I'm not saying they're viewed that way by humans in general, just that someone who already believes Balthazar has an active hand in his life is going to be predisposed to see the god of war's hand in all his battlefield successes. A human who believes it's Dwayna who's personally looking out for them, or a human who believes the gods don't directly involve themselves, is much less likely to see divine intervention in the same victories.