Everything wrong with Revenant (pvp)

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

if you say so XD (dunno why since u didn't really argue on that :p )

[narcx.3570]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> if you say so XD (dunno why since u didn't really argue on that :p )

 

Yeah, objectively we should be worse, but I constantly get away with a couple of K left from situations that I used to for sure die in... So maybe the condi changes helped after all. Also, I don't think there's been a single game since the patch that I haven't been top damage, but that's probably more bc of the mouth breathers that RNG sticks on my team every game.

 

In case you're wondering, the reason I said we should be worse is that since condi's got changed, they're weaker vs cleanse and overall less bursty... But that doesn't help us since we have very limited access to cleanses and we effectively absorb 1/2 as much condi dmg with Facet of Light than we did before; also we're able to negate less overall damage with iframes. Yet, despite all that, I feel my survivability has gone up quite a bit... Somehow. I guess being able to cycle in more staff 4's and legend swaps vs the slower building damage really adds up.

[Loboling.5293]

I'd say there are only 2 problems, the weakness to condi. And a lack of buildcraft. They really would've been better off giving Revs base utility skills that you can swap out with each legend. (So Shiro could run with 3 shiro skills and 2 base rev ones, etc.)

 

Having no flexibility means that when a weakness is apparent, like the condi problem, you have no real way to adapt. Revenant is unfinished in my eyes. (Herald is fun though)

[Cynz.9437]

I would like to drop a heretical idea here: if scourge/mirage got nerfed, we would see more revs in pvp.

[otto.5684]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> I would like to drop a heretical idea here: if scourge/mirage got nerfed, we would see more revs in pvp.

 

Scourge yes. Mirage not really. But that does not mean Rev will be much better than where it is now if you remove boon corrupt. Power herald should theoretically become viable. You are still subject to instant death if you get condi nuked.

 

Though no bruiser, bunker or condi build will work. Renegade will remain exactly where it is now, with zero PvP viability.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> I would like to drop a heretical idea here: if scourge/mirage got nerfed, we would see more revs in pvp.

 

Eh scourge is fine'ish... It's face roll, so I get that it frustrates people due to how effective it is vs the skill invested, but it's certainly still a manageable matchup. Really, it's the Firebrand supports that roll with them that make them so hard to deal with--it's a really rough combo. A scourge without their stablity/aegis spam, heals through their barriers, and a guaranteed rez every 40 seconds is actually pretty easy to take as a Rev, even without going lulzhammer.

 

As for Mirages, ya... They're out of control. Their only real counter is a better Mirage, and I rarely have a good one on my team, womp. :anguished: Having to rely on the other player to make a grievous mistake that you can capitalize on to win =/= balance. Whenever you somehow kill a Mirage 1v1, you can expect this classic /say exchange while they wait for their body to despawn: "I messed up." "I know."

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

They just need to give Core Rev Skills not tied to a Legend that can be swapped into a Legend Skill slot, so 1 Heal, 3 Utility’s and an Elite. Make one or Two of those skills a Condi cleanse and boom Rev is Miles ahead better.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Revenant.

Roll credits (ping)

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

The 12/12 patch helps revenant in the way as (for me) u can avoid more condies since they apply less condi for one and unique skill

 

That way when u get hit randomly by one skill while dodging or blocking ... that one skill is less deadly that it was before (that's my argue) but then when you're cc chain ... the problem is still there as stun break cost a lot of energy and have a heavy CD .

[Buran.3796]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> The 12/12 patch helps revenant in the way as (for me) u can avoid more condies since they apply less condi for one and unique skill

>

> That way when u get hit randomly by one skill while dodging or blocking ... that one skill is less deadly that it was before (that's my argue) but then when you're cc chain ... the problem is still there as stun break cost a lot of energy and have a heavy CD .

 

The problem with the last patch is that the Dismantle Defenses nerf makes us to deal less damage and less sustain due the lesser number of procs while Mirage, which was already a hard couter to us, was buffed.

 

We don't need more condition cleansing or even more variety of builds: both power and condi Revenants were powerfull at the HoT release. What we need is some of the damage we had to come back to us. But ANet keeps not giving us better cleansing while the nerfs to damage and sustain keeps going, so the forums are becoming the scorched earth they deserve. You gather up what you sow.

[messiah.1908]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"Olivier Yuki.5614" said:

> > Breakrazor's Bastion(50%) + Righteous Rebel(33%) = 83% reduced condition damage. I wonder if this is still considered too vulnerable to condition damage.

>

> Yes, because BB can (and will be) killed in seconds, ending the effect and the remaining 33%, while sounds a lot, is actually next to nothing in this meta. Soulbeast for example can have permanent protection (and thus 33% condi reduction too) and very good cleansing and they still melt in seconds.

 

its not 83% rather 1-50%*67%=66% less dmg as its multiplier

[narcx.3570]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > The 12/12 patch helps revenant in the way as (for me) u can avoid more condies since they apply less condi for one and unique skill

> >

> > That way when u get hit randomly by one skill while dodging or blocking ... that one skill is less deadly that it was before (that's my argue) but then when you're cc chain ... the problem is still there as stun break cost a lot of energy and have a heavy CD .

>

> The problem with the last patch is that the Dismantle Defenses nerf makes us to deal less damage and less sustain due the lesser number of procs while Mirage, which was already a hard couter to us, was buffed.

>

> We don't need more condition cleansing or even more variety of builds: both power and condi Revenants were powerfull at the HoT release. What we need is some of the damage we had to come back to us. But ANet keeps not giving us better cleansing while the nerfs to damage and sustain keeps going, so the forums are becoming the scorched earth they deserve. You gather up what you sow.

 

The last 3 patches actually returned a lot of Power Rev's damage... I mean, it's nothing like original SotM, but that was unarguably ridiculous. Things like extra-strength IR, rebuffed PS, and new, new sword OH returned a crazy amount of burst and opportunities to make plays. But people would rather focus on the things they lost (sword's block, weakened pvp Equilibrium)--which weren't even elevating Rev above D-tier at best--than even TRY the changes the devs put in. And the sad thing is, a lot of the changes, added up, have made rev somewhat viable now (unless the other team has like 2 mirages or something). Like, it's legitimately hard to NOT get top damage in every game you play.

 

As for Mutilate Defenses/Expose Defenses... There's literally no way you were getting more damage (in PvP) from old MD than you do from the new ED... You would have had to hit a target 15 times with 100% crit to average 5 stacks of vulnerability from the old trait... And that isn't happening outside of PvE, period. Sword's AA still applies plenty of steady vulnerability to fuel Targeted Destruction & Focused Siphoning, so I don't understand all the forum QQ'ing... People playing Condirev in sPvP aren't even using Devestation, and if you're power, you're not killing anybody without a sword anyways, so the point is moot.

[Buran.3796]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

 

> As for Mutilate Defenses/Expose Defenses... There's literally no way you were getting more damage (in PvP) from old MD than you do from the new ED... You would have had to hit a target 15 times with 100% crit to average 5 stacks of vulnerability from the old trait... And that isn't happening outside of PvE, period. Sword's AA still applies plenty of steady vulnerability to fuel Targeted Destruction & Focused Siphoning, so I don't understand all the forum QQ'ing... People playing Condirev in sPvP aren't even using Devestation, and if you're power, you're not killing anybody without a sword anyways, so the point is moot.

 

With the old trait we had a chance to proc vuln with any attack, and due a lot of skills from Herald do hit multiple times (Precission Strike, Unrelenting Assault, Warding Rift, Surge of The Mist, Elemental Blast... ) most of the time your target was under vuln and therefore traits as Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning were active. Now you have 5 stacks of vuln in your first attack (aka: a complete waste vs Guardians, thanx) and then you gain it again when you chose to blow your entire energy bar with your slow and telegraphed elites (a thing which happens when you need the elite, not when you need 5 stacks of vulnerability, because when you need that you use Burst of Strenght to blast up to 20 stacks of vuln at 0 energy cost).

 

So don't tell me that the Expose Defenses is a better trait. Is not like the other one was gold, but at least provided some damage/sustain at 0 oportunity cost. The new one is hot garbage.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Rev is actually alright in terms of mobility ( If you use action camera it's very easy to aim RS so it sends you forwards instead of backwards ) and damage is actually still decent.

 

The problems with the class in sPvP all come down to defense. As soon as any team with a brain knows your facet is down, they will spike the revenant. Why? Because Rev currently has absolutely none of the get-out-of-jail-free cards to save itself like other classes do. Engies when focused will shrink and get out. Guards when focused will gain aegis. Wars will gain EP. Mesmers have 10 billion sources of evade. Thieves can stunbreak and stealth. etc. Rev? Rev has none of this, and so it gets pooped on by any group with a basic competent level of teamwork. In addtion to this, there is absolutely no viable way to deal with condi. So by default Rev is forced to run from certain matchups and give up points.

 

The buffs Rev needs are all pretty much defense focused:

 

Here is what I would do:

 

Core:

-Return block to sword 4 ( You can still use the new sword 4 by pressing the key twice )

-charged mists = increase threshold to 15.

-empty vessel = now grants 3 seconds of stab

-Mutilate defenses = revert 12/2017 "buff".

-Dwarf stance = Heal now grants 3 seconds of stab for each condi it removes

-Dwarf stance = Elite reduces condi damage by default ( no longer tied to trait )

-Malyx stance = resistance granted by pain absorption increased by 1 second. 1/4 cast time.

-Malyx stance = Elite now grants a small amount of regen for each condi on you.

-Shiro stance = When RS successfully breaks a stun it now also grants 3 seconds of stab

-Cleansing channel = increased conditions removed to 2

-Eluding Nullification = reduced ICD to 5

-Staff 4 = decreased cast time to 1/2.

 

Renegade:

-Orders from above = removes a condition each second it is active ( from just the renegade, not party members ).

-Heroic command = Heals a small amount for each stack of Kallas

-Citadel bombardment = reduced energy cost to 25.

-Righteous rebel = now both reduces condi damage and duration

-Lasting legacy = Increases your healing gained from Heroic command in addition to previous effects

-Brutal momentum = reduced ICD to 6 ( very minor but important buff. allows skilled Renegade players to maintain it more reliably )

-Wrought Iron will = reduced ICD to 2 ( very minor but important buff. allows skilled Renegade players to maintain it more reliably )

-Sudden reversal = Now grants stab when you stunbreak.

-Legendary renegade stance = A portion of the Players vitality stat is now added to the summons health pools

 

Herald:

*herald is actually still in a semi viable although still low tier spot. I would almost avoid buffing it due to the above core buffs possibly being already enough. But here are some buffs in case the above is not enough:

-Soothing bastion = Crystal hibernation now removes conditions for each healing tick.

-Enhanced bulwark = In addition to gaining another stack of stab, this trait now increases stab boon duration by 20%.

 

Notice how all of the above come with hardly any direct increase to DPS, yet they would very likely make the class viable in most 1v1 matchups.

 

 

[JayAction.9056]

Nah the new sword off hand is better. We don't need that changed back. Actually the #5 skill needs to made quick enough to land reliably. Shield was a better defensive off hand outside of like zerging anyway.

 

We need defense to come from utility skills or tacked on elsewhere in weapons, both condi mitigation and stab.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> Nah the new sword off hand is better. We don't need that changed back. Actually the #5 skill needs to made quick enough to land reliably. Shield was a better defensive off hand outside of like zerging anyway.

>

> We need defense to come from utility skills or tacked on elsewhere in weapons, both condi mitigation and stab.

 

You realize if block is re-added you can still use the new sword 4 right afterwards right?

 

In fact that's always how S4 used to work. You didn't have to actually block anything to use the AOE attack afterwards, you could just press the button rapidly twice and it would skip to that skill.

 

What anet did was buff the second part of the skill while removing the first part, which is great for PvE but a net nerf for PvP. Anet was probably worried that it would become too strong if they didn't do that, but considering the state of Rev right now I doubt it.

 

 

[Buran.3796]

But off hand now has a strong identity: get you killed fast.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > Nah the new sword off hand is better. We don't need that changed back. Actually the #5 skill needs to made quick enough to land reliably. Shield was a better defensive off hand outside of like zerging anyway.

> >

> > We need defense to come from utility skills or tacked on elsewhere in weapons, both condi mitigation and stab.

>

> You realize if block is re-added you can still use the new sword 4 right afterwards right?

>

> In fact that's always how S4 used to work. You didn't have to actually block anything to use the AOE attack afterwards, you could just press the button rapidly twice and it would skip to that skill.

>

> What anet did was buff the second part of the skill while removing the first part, which is great for PvE but a net nerf for PvP. Anet was probably worried that it would become too strong if they didn't do that, but considering the state of Rev right now I doubt it.

>

>

 

remake the blocking number 4 on sword is the problem ... it makes the dmg delayed ... and now the thing that kills ppl is the burst , not the sustained dmg (FB can easily heal if you don't burst the target down in less than 2 sec after opening)

 

That's the strenght of revenant actually , a thief-like bursting opener on target (and cleaving downed bodies ofc)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > Nah the new sword off hand is better. We don't need that changed back. Actually the #5 skill needs to made quick enough to land reliably. Shield was a better defensive off hand outside of like zerging anyway.

> > >

> > > We need defense to come from utility skills or tacked on elsewhere in weapons, both condi mitigation and stab.

> >

> > You realize if block is re-added you can still use the new sword 4 right afterwards right?

> >

> > In fact that's always how S4 used to work. You didn't have to actually block anything to use the AOE attack afterwards, you could just press the button rapidly twice and it would skip to that skill.

> >

> > What anet did was buff the second part of the skill while removing the first part, which is great for PvE but a net nerf for PvP. Anet was probably worried that it would become too strong if they didn't do that, but considering the state of Rev right now I doubt it.

> >

> >

>

> remake the blocking number 4 on sword is the problem ... it makes the dmg delayed ... and now the thing that kills ppl is the burst , not the sustained dmg (FB can easily heal if you don't burst the target down in less than 2 sec after opening)

>

> That's the strenght of revenant actually , a thief-like bursting opener on target (and cleaving downed bodies ofc)

 

Hate to pull the rating card but I havent seen players bad enough for 0.01 seconds of cast time being worth more than a block since I was in silver, and in platinum that sort of thing is out of the question since every decent player knows that rev is currently weak defensively. If you are fighting someone who is that clueless you are playing against a very very bad player.

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > > Nah the new sword off hand is better. We don't need that changed back. Actually the #5 skill needs to made quick enough to land reliably. Shield was a better defensive off hand outside of like zerging anyway.

> > > >

> > > > We need defense to come from utility skills or tacked on elsewhere in weapons, both condi mitigation and stab.

> > >

> > > You realize if block is re-added you can still use the new sword 4 right afterwards right?

> > >

> > > In fact that's always how S4 used to work. You didn't have to actually block anything to use the AOE attack afterwards, you could just press the button rapidly twice and it would skip to that skill.

> > >

> > > What anet did was buff the second part of the skill while removing the first part, which is great for PvE but a net nerf for PvP. Anet was probably worried that it would become too strong if they didn't do that, but considering the state of Rev right now I doubt it.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > remake the blocking number 4 on sword is the problem ... it makes the dmg delayed ... and now the thing that kills ppl is the burst , not the sustained dmg (FB can easily heal if you don't burst the target down in less than 2 sec after opening)

> >

> > That's the strenght of revenant actually , a thief-like bursting opener on target (and cleaving downed bodies ofc)

>

> Hate to pull the rating card but I havent seen players bad enough for 0.01 seconds of cast time being worth more than a block since I was in silver, and in platinum that sort of thing is out of the question since every decent player knows that rev is currently weak defensively. If you are fighting someone who is that clueless you are playing against a very very bad player.

 

I have to agree with him. That extra milli second pressing the button the second time is a big deal, especially vs classes with excessive blinks and slow spam. I rather the class have defense in evade frames rather than blocks. They lowered the damage of sword #1-3 so much losing any time during a combo means enemy probably easily recovers or counters and kills you. Every other class has a lot more/better unblockables. So it's not really that great of a defense imo.

 

Sidenote: Notice holosmiths got an improved version of the pre-quadruple-nerfed sword #2 on a shorter cd, with cleave rather than the damage being potentially split.

 

Now, if sword #3 would become single target, or each of the strikes cleaved we'd be in a lot better position imo.

[JayAction.9056]

It hasn't been meta for a while but mallyx feels pretty weak since the abyssal chill nerf. The amount of resistance it brings and the way it applies it (once every 5 seconds) allows too much counter play.

[Rasp Sabreblade.5421]

Quite honestly. I would like Anet to try this for 1 month, and see what the results are.

Remove all cool downs and half all energy use and make elite skill activation 1/4 or instant without the stupid over sized animations (I specifically remarking on the Herald elite. I mean who doesn't see a giant dragon flying out of your ass and know I need to dodge or use my stab)

 

Also, herald utilities should use the ammo mechanic - since that is basically what it is with up keeps. Then change renegade to the up keep skills like the herald (mobile aoe around player) currently is and made the F2 skill enemy targeted. Especially the renegade elite - all it does is add a little dmg and siphons a little health.

 

Then on a plus note: Herald and Renegade become usable underwater and it removes the shitty flat plain issue on all the renegade utility skills.

 

Anet you should hire me to do skill balance. haha

 

edit: one last thing - get ride of the yellow brick road and made it an area around the rev or more like a shot gun that puts the bricks down. This directional stuff needs to stop - doesn't work here and doesn't work on the shortbow. And please for the love of pete - add 2 more utility skills to each legend and a set of generic utility skills under invocation which have zero energy use, but do something different based on whether you are above or below the half way mark on energy.

ok this is really the last thing - invocation means "to invoke". why aren't all the invocation traits based around this concept. Seriously, only 3 out of 12 traits actually do anything when you swap legends.

[jimjam.5390]

Nerfs that make no sense:

Abysmal chill let you play condition on sword. Blindly rolled into the blanket condition ramping blah blah blah 12/12 patch; nerfed for no reason whatsoever.

Maniacal presence also blindly rolled into the same patch; now if you take it you will just kill yourself and its a worthless grandmaster trait,

[Lalainnia.3598]

Condi removal for me outside of ventari or way less expensive in ventari. Not more condi damage reduction/resistance or having it attached to healing skills straight up condi removal

[Ertrak.9506]

I know this thread is about revenant in general in spvp, but what if darkrazor's daring granted pulsing stability in its AoE in addition to its currents effects? Also what if the renegade trait Rightous Rebel (the one that increases the duration of f4) also allowed to clear a condition every 3s in addition to its current effects (if I recall correctly, this would be a total of 2 conditions cleared over 6s?)