Condi Balance is off

[messiah.1908]

the problems with conditions is not the class. each season we have another class who is stronger.

 

if you read my thread about condi and my suggestion to solve it it is very simple

 

assuming mesmer would proc only confusion and torment will it be easy to cleanse even if you have 20 stacks of them? i think yes

the problem is that you cover with lots of conditions and its hard to cleanse the dmging ones. i know its tactics. but not any more with all the weakness trait, poison, vulnerability, chill, immobilize, cripple.

 

if anet split the cleanse into first cleanse the dmg conditions and later the control conditions it would be more balance and demand more tactic game. condition burst will turn to DOT as intended. while controling the enemy with cripple, weakness which focus more on sustain to the condi class.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

>

> Your armor values are wrong.

>

> The Average Kitty Golem (the golem used for benchmarking) has 1400 toughness with a combined armor rating of 2623.106. While higher armor values can be reached in sPvP by players, no meta build has anywhere near this much armor, since toughness amulets are rarely used in sPvP.

>

>

 

Well, 2623 armor isn't significantly different than 2400 armor. I'd still expect power and condition damage to be pretty close to neck and neck, with condi maybe doing only slightly more dps at most. 2623 armor is a warrior with about 400 extra toughness.

 

The reason nobody uses toughness amulets and why armor values aren't generally higher is because it's an underpowered stat that is made even more obsolete in a meta dominated by so many conditions. My entire point is that they've moved the game in a bad direction by making condi competitive with power against lower armor values and attempting to compensate by putting immunity and cleansing mechanics in everywhere. Your point about toughness/defense is a good illustration of that.

[nekretaal.6485]

Another thing to consider is that much "power" damage is really also damage over time in another package (fields, traps, phantasms)

 

So we have power DoT builds versus Condition DoT builds.

 

And a 1000 point power hit can be less powerful than 4 250 point hits, because healing skills have cooldowns. See, after each of the two scenarios, the player who got hit needs to use his heal (because the next 1000 point hit could kill him). But the player who got hit by the DoT also needs to use his heal right away for the same reason, and may still continue to be getting hit even after the heal goes off.

[Milan.9035]

I am sorry but the meta is not condi no matter how much you say it. 2 class doing condi is not meta.

 

If you remove mesmer and necro complety from the game do you think there would be any condi builds in the meta?

[Laiboch.4380]

The biggest issue is there are simply too many conditions that can be applied by one player. It would be far more balanced and easier to tune if they toned down the number of conditions and simply added a bit of duration to the remaining ones. I am fine with conditions and power dealing about the same damage, but in the current meta this is just not the case and should be addressed.

[Swagg.9236]

Condi is overtuned precisely because it is applied passively with the most effortless of actions, and because gear can effectively lower the cooldowns of condi bomb rotations by extending the duration of the DoT inflicted by the condi bomb. Nonsense like "[Condition X] lasts 10-25% longer" along with expertise is the effective equivalent of a "Global Skill Recharge Reduction of X%" stat for a power build.

 

Remember that the condi meta was made for PvEers who didn't know anything about game balance and just wanted condi to compete with the zerker meta for no justifiable reason. The effects of the condi creep in PvE are just directly felt in a game mode that forces players to stand in circles that are only as big as every AoE in the game. The PvE condi stack cap update was merely the flood that finally split the cracking dam (and subsequently ruined PvP by association since, after the update and in proceeding expacs, anet just kept shoving more and more condi into GW2 given how the only thing keeping it from being overpowered/meta in all modes was gone).

[otto.5684]

> @Milan.9035 said:

> I am sorry but the meta is not condi no matter how much you say it. 2 class doing condi is not meta.

>

> If you remove mesmer and necro complety from the game do you think there would be any condi builds in the meta?

 

Considering that 1-2 scourges are guranteed on every team and mirages are very abundant, I will strongly disagree.

[Vagrant.7206]

The weird thing IMO is ArenaNet's tendency to switch between two extremes. At game launch and just up to before HoT, power was infinitely better as you could not stack condis. For a short period of time, there was a rough bit of balance where both were just as potent because both were overpowered. Then it came round and now condis are generally superior damage in most cases.

[Milan.9035]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Milan.9035 said:

> > I am sorry but the meta is not condi no matter how much you say it. 2 class doing condi is not meta.

> >

> > If you remove mesmer and necro complety from the game do you think there would be any condi builds in the meta?

>

> Considering that 1-2 scourges are guranteed on every team and mirages are very abundant, I will strongly disagree.

 

Then those 2 classes are the problem. Why didn't you answer the second part.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @Coolguy.8702 said:

> Agreed, although to be fair, its scourge and mirage that makes condi seem so op, those 2 classes just need to be toned down, a great start would be removing all those cover condis and just keep their main damaging conditions (torment, burning and bleeds for scourge, confusion for mirage)

 

Their cover conditions are coming from their target spamming boons, or from plague signet. To me a huge part of what makes condi hard to deal with is the user interface, and how many conditions there are in the game.

 

[LUST.7241]

Condi output is geared toward PvP speed while Condi Cleanse is geared toward PvE speed.

 

One thing that may work is: Is if all the condi cleanses were brought to PvP speed levels...there'd might actually be a somewhat decent counter.

If the opposite thing is done, you get PvE raging over their QTFY benchmark. That's a no-no. Can't have PvE upset.

[Crystal Black.8190]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @Coolguy.8702 said:

> > Agreed, although to be fair, its scourge and mirage that makes condi seem so op, those 2 classes just need to be toned down, a great start would be removing all those cover condis and just keep their main damaging conditions (torment, burning and bleeds for scourge, confusion for mirage)

>

> Their cover conditions are coming from their target spamming boons, or from plague signet. To me a huge part of what makes condi hard to deal with is the user interface, and how many conditions there are in the game.

>

If a power skill hits me I can see quite clear I have a problem with low hp. If a condi hits me I can't be sure how big the problem is until I am dead or look at the small come condi icons and guess that the amount is troublesome.

[otto.5684]

> @Milan.9035 said:

> > @otto.5684 said:

> > > @Milan.9035 said:

> > > I am sorry but the meta is not condi no matter how much you say it. 2 class doing condi is not meta.

> > >

> > > If you remove mesmer and necro complety from the game do you think there would be any condi builds in the meta?

> >

> > Considering that 1-2 scourges are guranteed on every team and mirages are very abundant, I will strongly disagree.

>

> Then those 2 classes are the problem. Why didn't you answer the second part.

 

There is no second part and I am not disputing that mirage and scourge are not the problem. Their over abundance, in particular how broken scourge is, determines the meta. Ya, they are 2 classes, but they are not 2/9 in sPvP, more like 50%. Not to mention that the entire meta classes selection is heavy impacted by scourge.

 

If we want to be specific we can call it scourge meta.

[narcx.3570]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > No when you say "condi needs to be nerfed" what you mean is "scourge and mirage need to be nerfed"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

> >

> > In PvP, power should dominate when glass builds dominate. What they've done is tried to make condi competitive in PvP in a pretty glass meta, and that's not how it should work. Condi should have the role of wearing down attrition against high armor targets, not bursting down low armor targets.

> >

> > Condi and Scourge may be more OP than other condi builds, but condi in general performs better than it should because they have the wrong idea in their heads about how to properly balance it.

>

> Outside of scourge and mirage, that does not hold true. Must power builds (glass or not) can out last and out damage condi builds. The "overall" PvE damage and "burst" condi just does not hold true. And your role in sPvP is not dependent on your damage type, but your class. When I play condi dps guardian, I still do the exact same thing and fulfill the exact same role as power dps (less effective though). Same goes for almost all condi builds. Mobility, utility and sustainability is what determines your role, not damage type.

>

>

 

I definitely don't disagree that mobility/utility are what definite your role, but condi affords a lot more offensive pressure than a power spec does relative to the amount of time that you leave yourself vulnerable for counter attack. You say condi vs power doesn't affect your play as Guardian, but much of a guard's offense behaves the same as condis... Traps, symbols, and burns all continue to do damage while you can duck behind a pillar, cycle through blocks, or just straight up run away if need be--which is the heart of condi play (make yourself available for a very limited time, dump out as much damage as possible, and swap back to defensive play while your dot's do work.)

 

As long as the two damage types do relatively the same damage, condi will almost always be stronger because of this (in both PvP and PvE), and while it can be hard countered by heavy cleanse support, some of the condi builds these days easily output more condis than are physically even possible to cleanse so it doesn't even matter anymore--which brings us back to the OP's original argument about the power creep. It seems like they balance these new insane condi specs to still be somewhat viable against the strongest bunkers classes, which just leave the other professions screwed hard. I think in a weird twist, classes like Herald actually have a soft-advantage this season since their player base is at least used to not being able to deal with condis and already knows how to somewhat play around this weakness.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Milan.9035 said:

> > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > @Milan.9035 said:

> > > > I am sorry but the meta is not condi no matter how much you say it. 2 class doing condi is not meta.

> > > >

> > > > If you remove mesmer and necro complety from the game do you think there would be any condi builds in the meta?

> > >

> > > Considering that 1-2 scourges are guranteed on every team and mirages are very abundant, I will strongly disagree.

> >

> > Then those 2 classes are the problem. Why didn't you answer the second part.

>

> There is no second part and I am not disputing that mirage and scourge are not the problem. Their over abundance, in particular how broken scourge is, determines the meta. Ya, they are 2 classes, but they are not 2/9 in sPvP, more like 50%. Not to mention that the entire meta classes selection is heavy impacted by scourge.

>

> If we want to be specific we can call it scourge meta.

 

I would call it the boon/condi/corrupt spam meta. Scourge was put in to deal with the boon spam. If you take it out, boon spam will be out of control.

[Hot Boy.7138]

Anet knows that condi damage is out of whack. It spikes just as hard, or harder, than direct attacks in full power build. There is no ramp up time cause so many conditions with multiple stacks are all applied at in quick successions. They have no idea how to fix balance at this point. So I'm sure they are aware, just clueless to what to do about it.

 

I have some ideas:

Conditions should be made into unique DoT effects for each class. Each class has their own unique DoTs. Then they could easily balance it on a per class basis, or even per build, if they wanna introduce unique dots to elite specs.

 

And they should remove class exclusive boons from the game.

 

In addition, toughness and precision should affect Conditions. So make conditions mitigated by toughness and armor, but make them able to crit so precision remains a valuable stat for condi users.

 

Lower base power weapon strength and damage of all weapon skills. Make skills scale more greatly with Power stat. This is so pure condi builds aren't also supplementing such a large part of their damage with direct attacks without investing in power.

 

Boons in pvp need to be greatly reworked. Stacking 25 might with a bunker build so you can pump out good damage while having good survivability is bad. Boons need a limit on players in the number of stacks.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> In addition, toughness and precision should affect Conditions. So make conditions mitigated by toughness and armor, but make them able to crit so precision remains a valuable stat for condi users.

>

 

Most condi classes have traits that apply extra conditions on crits--effectively doubling their damage, which is essentially the same as critical striking somebody with 750 ferocity. I mean, it's not always an exact doubling due to base durations, but to say that precision isn't valuable for condi users... :astonished:

[Frozen.1347]

> @Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

> The reason nobody uses toughness amulets and why armor values aren't generally higher is because it's an underpowered stat that is made even more obsolete in a meta dominated by so many conditions. My entire point is that they've moved the game in a bad direction by making condi competitive with power against lower armor values and attempting to compensate by putting immunity and cleansing mechanics in everywhere. Your point about toughness/defense is a good illustration of that.

 

Toughness amulets are rarely used, because all the good ones got removed. Guess why ...

And since there are not many high toughness builds in PvP, making condis useless against low toughness, as you suggest, would make condi dmg useless in general. It is obviously your intention, but it certainly won't be balanced.

 

> @nekretaal.6485 said:

 

> And a 1000 point power hit can be less powerful than 4 250 point hits, because healing skills have cooldowns. See, after each of the two scenarios, the player who got hit needs to use his heal (because the next 1000 point hit could kill him). But the player who got hit by the DoT also needs to use his heal right away for the same reason, and may still continue to be getting hit even after the heal goes off.

 

Immediate damage is never worse than damage over time if total dmg is the same. And heals are a reason for this. Your example doesn't make sense at all. If you get hit by 1k dmg at once you die if your health is low enough. If you get hit by 4x250 dmg, chances that you get some heals off during that time are higher and you might survive, even with already low health.

 

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> Anet knows that condi damage is out of whack. It spikes just as hard, or harder, than direct attacks in full power build.

 

Power builds can burst down players in 1-2 seconds. Please show me a condi build that can do this.

 

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> Condi is overtuned precisely because it is applied passively with the most effortless of actions, and because gear can effectively lower the cooldowns of condi bomb rotations by extending the duration of the DoT inflicted by the condi bomb. Nonsense like "[Condition X] lasts 10-25% longer" along with expertise is the effective equivalent of a "Global Skill Recharge Reduction of X%" stat for a power build.

 

Condis are applied exactly the same way as direct damage. And higher condi duration does not equal reduced cooldown, that is indeed "nonsense".

 

> @narcx.3570 said:

>

> Most condi classes have traits that apply extra conditions on crits--effectively doubling their damage, which is essentially the same as critical striking somebody with 750 ferocity. I mean, it's not always an exact doubling due to base durations, but to say that precision isn't valuable for condi users... :astonished:

 

Wrong. Condi builds gain a lot less damage from crit procs compared to the dmg a power build gains from critical hits.

 

Love those condi threads. Always a rich source of ignorance <3

And as usual i will get ignored, because people simply don't want to accept that they are wrong and instead of learning and understanding, how the game works, they will keep QQing, because reasons ...

[Swagg.9236]

> @Frozen.1347 said:

 

> Condis are applied exactly the same way as direct damage. And higher condi duration does not equal reduced cooldown, that is indeed "nonsense".

 

Expertise is the stat which adds extra ticks to condi rotations. A commonly-used power skill which ticks is Elementalist Lava Font. The reason why Expertise is so good is because it—in combination with sigils—extends condition durations applied by any given skill or trait to the point at which these condition bursts often start to overlap each other as cooldowns come up again (which allows for higher and higher consistent condi stacks as a given player's condi ramp starts to plateau). If we were to apply the same effect to Lava Font (let's say, giving it two extra ticks), we would see—in combination with Persisting Flames—the ability for an Elementalist to maintain two lava fonts at once. Do you know another way to do such a thing without extending the Lava Font's duration? How about *lowering the skill's base recharge*?

 

If you were to take, for instance, a skill which would inflict bleeding with a baseline 10s duration and apply a 100% duration increase to that condition, it would mean the next time that a player were to cast this skill, the first instance of that skill's condition damage would still be in effect for another whole 10s, effectively doubling the skill's DPS. Another way to outright double that skill's DPS would be to keep all damage output the same, but just halving the skill's recharge from 10s to 5s. That's how ridiculously powerful Expertise is (especially considering that most PvE condi specs will cap at least 1 condition out at +100% duration via Viper armor and sigils). Makes Sigil of Force look a little silly in comparison, doesn't it?

 

Expertise is a baseline recharge reduction for condi-specs. Power doesn't have that, and as such it will never, ever compete with condimeta. This all came from PvE, and it has bled into PvP. I'm not saying that Power should get a cooldown reduction stat; I'm just saying that Expertise and Conditions are poorly-implemented concepts and flagrant offenses to video game combat balance on a universal scale. I'd rather see condis reworked entirely into class or weapon-unique debuffs which ramp up into debuffs which could power-up party Power DPS rather than condis doing any real damage on their own. A change like that would at least give conditions a unique purpose in a game which, since launch, already had a perfectly fine way of calculating outgoing damage.

[Frozen.1347]

Reduced cooldown increases dps, that's true. Damage modifier also increase dps. Doesn't mean, both things are the same. Condi duration is a damage modifier. Power builds have acess to damage modifier too. Both types of damage modifier have different advantages and disadvantages. It is easier to stack high condi duration than to stack high direct damage modifier - yes. But direct damage modifier are more powerful. They stack multiplicative and don't have a cap (condi duration = additive and capped). They increase both burst and dps and will always provide increased damage. Condi duration doesn't increase burst and can be completely nullified by cleanses.

 

And there is no condi meta in PvP. Having a few viable or overperforming condi builds doesn't equal a condi meta. But you obviously dislike condis (why?) and want them to be removed. That's ok, you don't have to like everything. But personal bias shouldn't be a base for balance.

[Ivantreil.3092]

All these posts about how condi is overtuned and needs to be taken to the ground... only makes me thing that they wanna kill condi engi even more dead than what it is already....

[Swagg.9236]

> @Frozen.1347 said:

> Reduced cooldown increases dps, that's true. Damage modifier also increase dps. Doesn't mean, both things are the same.

 

That's why I used the word "effective." While they technically aren't the same, they accomplish the same thing and could be substituted for each other with no real difference. Moreover, reducing cooldowns globally is the only way that a Power build could imitate the way in which Expertise directly impacts a Condition build. That was my point: that's how imba Expertise is on a fundamental level. Zerker gear only gets Power so far. Conditions not only get Zerker stat equivalents, but also get an effective global recharge reduction on their bursts because their damage ticks get a baseline 45-100% increase.

 

> @Frozen.1347 said:

> Condi duration is a damage modifier. Power builds have acess to damage modifier too. Both types of damage modifier have different advantages and disadvantages.

 

There is no disadvantage to having only 1 damage dump stat (condi) compared to requiring 3 respective damage dump stats (power). The former is at a clear advantage. The gap between them was only widened when Expertise was introduced as a stat.

 

> @Frozen.1347 said:

> It is easier to stack high condi duration than to stack high direct damage modifier - yes. But direct damage modifier are more powerful. They stack multiplicative and don't have a cap (condi duration = additive and capped). They increase both burst and dps and will always provide increased damage.

 

Thanks for admitting it, but direct damage modifier numbers don't matter in the end because none of them are relevant when weighed against the total DPS of condis combined with the fact that condis builds can effectively spike as well as power in PvP (or if they can't spike as well, they pressure far, far more effectively).

 

> @Frozen.1347 said:

> Condi duration doesn't increase burst and can be completely nullified by cleanses.

 

True, but the number of available player cleanses are far outweighed by the ability for condispam to renew its pressure. On top of that, while condi duration doesn't increase burst, condi burst is still nigh-instant in most cases of PvP and ramps up incredibly quickly in PvE scenarios.

 

> @Frozen.1347 said:

> personal bias shouldn't be a base for balance.

 

Neither should flavor, but neither of those things stopped anet from using them to govern how GW2 was """balanced."""

[lilypop.7819]

> @ArthurDent.9538 said:

> Please just give me some kind of tell that I can dodge so I can actually try to use proactive defenses instead of just tanking the damage and cleansing (which I can't even do as a rev). Scourge, mirage, even condi thief are all horrible offenders in this regard. Even when I watch a mirage streamer like helseth or misha burst someone, I can see what they did because I can see which of their skills are on cooldown but if I was just watching character animations there would be basically no way to tell how those 20 stacks of confusion and 10 stacks of torment showed up in the blink of an eye.

 

This is why condi spamming sucks so badly. Essentially the game interface doesn't support high burst damage from conditions in PvP - you can't watch animations - the skill bit! - and small square boxes (all the same colour ofc) with even smaller numbers at the bottom of the screen at the same time. As such PvP is becoming skill-less and consequently more bot-ty.

[Frozen.1347]

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> > @Frozen.1347 said:

> > Reduced cooldown increases dps, that's true. Damage modifier also increase dps. Doesn't mean, both things are the same.

>

> That's why I used the word "effective." While they technically aren't the same, they accomplish the same thing and could be substituted for each other with no real difference. Moreover, reducing cooldowns globally is the only way that a Power build could imitate the way in which Expertise directly impacts a Condition build. That was my point: that's how imba Expertise is on a fundamental level. Zerker gear only gets Power so far. Conditions not only get Zerker stat equivalents, but also get an effective global recharge reduction on their bursts because their damage ticks get a baseline 45-100% increase.

 

What do you mean with conditions get zerker stat equivalents? The same total amount of stats from amulets? Of course. And again, expertise increases dps, but so do direct dmg modifier. Stuff like "deal x% more dmg" exists for power builds too and it is a dps increase like expertise, but better. Also expertise doesn't provide a baseline increase of dmg ticks. It allows to ramp up higher maximum amount stacks if not cleansed, but isn't that how condis are supposed to work? Ramping up damage that increases over time? Shorter cooldowns would reduce the time it takes to reach maximum stacks, expertise does not.

 

> > @Frozen.1347 said:

> > Condi duration is a damage modifier. Power builds have acess to damage modifier too. Both types of damage modifier have different advantages and disadvantages.

>

> There is no disadvantage to having only 1 damage dump stat (condi) compared to requiring 3 respective damage dump stats (power). The former is at a clear advantage. The gap between them was only widened when Expertise was introduced as a stat.

 

I was not talking about stats. I was talking about damage modifier in general , which includes precision and ferocity but also modifiers from traits and skills. You are also contradicting yourself. If investing into 1 dmg stat instead of 3 stats is better, then investing into 2 stats can't be better than 1. 3<1<2 doesn't make sense.

In general, it is not the amount of different stats you are using that matters, it depends on how well a certain build can utilize those stats. Or with other words - it depends on the skills that you are using to apply either direct dmg or condition dmg.

 

> > @Frozen.1347 said:

> > It is easier to stack high condi duration than to stack high direct damage modifier - yes. But direct damage modifier are more powerful. They stack multiplicative and don't have a cap (condi duration = additive and capped). They increase both burst and dps and will always provide increased damage.

>

> Thanks for admitting it, but direct damage modifier numbers don't matter in the end because none of them are relevant when weighed against the total DPS of condis combined with the fact that condis builds can effectively spike as well as power in PvP (or if they can't spike as well, they pressure far, far more effectively).

>

1. PvP viability is not just about dps. DPS alone only matters in PvE.

2. Condi builds can't burst as high as direct dmg build. If you don't agree, please show me a condition build that can kill a player in 1-2 seconds. With actual numbers.

3. Some condi builds have more pressure than direct dmg builds. Most don't.

4. With stats (precision and ferocity) and modifier from traits and skills together, power builds have access to modifier that add up (no, they actually multiply!) to more than 100% increase to both sustained pressure and especially burst. This doesn't matter? But condi duration, which doesn't do anything for burst, can be completelly nullified and is capped at 100% does somehow? Are you serious?

 

PvP balance is about a lot more than just a few numbers like modifiers, stats from amulets and so on. There are tons of other factors that decide how powerful or bad a build is. A power build that stacks lots of direct dmg modifier isn't automatically good. A condi build that stacks a lot of condi duration isn't automatically good. There is no general "condi is better than power" or "power is better than condi" rule because X, and you can't just pick X and decide to balance arround that single factor while ignoring everything else.

There are op condi builds, yes. There have been pretty op power build too. Spellbreaker for example. Should they have nerfed every power build out there just because of spellbreaker? No? Then why should they nerf every single condition build because of Scourge and Mirage?

 

> > @Frozen.1347 said:

> > Condi duration doesn't increase burst and can be completely nullified by cleanses.

>

> True, but the number of available player cleanses are far outweighed by the ability for condispam to renew its pressure. On top of that, while condi duration doesn't increase burst, condi burst is still nigh-instant in most cases of PvP and ramps up incredibly quickly in PvE scenarios.

>

Dmg is higher than healing. Dmg op? You are not supposed to cleanse all condis. Condis are supposed to kill players. Just like direct damage.

Also what instant condi burst? Can you provide actual examples? With numbers? For all classes?

[lilypop.7819]

> @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > No, it's not that simple. I'm talking bout the condi balance paradigm. Right now, condition builds average around 36k dps vs power's 30k dps (which I know isn't a metric that matters to many people in PvP, but it's still relevant). Condi and power should both average around 30k DPS if you assume a low-medium armor rating (most benchmarking is done vs 2400 armor golem). Condi's rampup should generally be in the range of 4-5 seconds.

> >

> > Your armor values are wrong.

> >

> > The Average Kitty Golem (the golem used for benchmarking) has 1400 toughness with a combined armor rating of 2623.106. While higher armor values can be reached in sPvP by players, no meta build has anywhere near this much armor, since toughness amulets are rarely used in sPvP.

> >

> >

>

> Well, 2623 armor isn't significantly different than 2400 armor. I'd still expect power and condition damage to be pretty close to neck and neck, with condi maybe doing only slightly more dps at most. 2623 armor is a warrior with about 400 extra toughness.

>

> The reason nobody uses toughness amulets and why armor values aren't generally higher is because it's an underpowered stat that is made even more obsolete in a meta dominated by so many conditions. My entire point is that they've moved the game in a bad direction by making condi competitive with power against lower armor values and attempting to compensate by putting immunity and cleansing mechanics in everywhere. Your point about toughness/defense is a good illustration of that.

 

Any interesting concept is to give the armour stat a 'rollover' w.r.t. to conditions. For example: With 9 Torment applied if Torment is now instantly applied and the number of Torments applied instantly 'rollovers' to 1. Higher Armour --> Lower 'rollover' limit.

 

There is no reason at all for the 25 limit in PvE to also apply to PvP, as the maximum number of attackers is limited to five and player have far less health. Strictly speaking the limit should be a lot lower. Putting 'rollover' into the PvP game would certainly put a stop to 'MINDLESS group condi splattering'. Why should all the care be on the receiver giving how poor the interface is w.r.t. to condi notification and identification?