battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > I do agree with the OP that a lot of story content is not meant to be soloed by a lot of character types. > > Utter nonsense. > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > ...and that makes it bad for a game , that needs to keep players as long, as possible if you expect all players to reach those standards, then you really dont belong in a mainstream mmo it looks like anet is finally smelling the roses, but its prolly too late now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > Utter nonsense. > > That may be your personal experience with it, but I guarantee that it does not coincide with the experiences of others. > > >That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > > Story mode is TERRIBLE for helping players "learn their classes." It's way too one-size-fits-all for that. All story mode can do is either let you through, or kill you. Either it will be a horrible slog, or a fun experience, and if it's horrible, it gives no indication as to *what you could do to change that.* A teaching mechanism has to do more than deliver failing grades, it needs to actually *instruct* on how you can improve. If it's not doing that, then the "instructional" element is not serving a function. > > Well designed encounters have to teach you what to do to overcome them, they need to highlight the proper mechanics, and if necessary, indicate what builds you're meant to be using. There is way too much variety in GW2 builds for the content to insist that you stumble upon the "right" build. It either needs to *tell* you exactly which build you should be using, or it needs to *accept* whichever build you happen to be using. > > Yes it is my personal experience that quite literally every story step can be completed with every classes and a very wide ranging varriety of builds. Would you like me to stream one you find "Hard" maybe you'll learn something. Story is the perfect place for people to learn, its a low cost, low entry, low stress environment that only effects YOU and people YOU choose to play with. The encounters in the story are all properly designed, the only issue is Anet assumes a minimal amount player knowledge (IE not being a boosted 80) and you should within reason be able to figure out what to do. If you can't that's not on ANET and some internal reflecting may need to happen as to why you keep repeating the same actions that result in a failed state and getting the same result each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > > > Utter nonsense. > > > > That may be your personal experience with it, but I guarantee that it does not coincide with the experiences of others. > > > > >That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > > > > Story mode is TERRIBLE for helping players "learn their classes." It's way too one-size-fits-all for that. All story mode can do is either let you through, or kill you. Either it will be a horrible slog, or a fun experience, and if it's horrible, it gives no indication as to *what you could do to change that.* A teaching mechanism has to do more than deliver failing grades, it needs to actually *instruct* on how you can improve. If it's not doing that, then the "instructional" element is not serving a function. > > > > Well designed encounters have to teach you what to do to overcome them, they need to highlight the proper mechanics, and if necessary, indicate what builds you're meant to be using. There is way too much variety in GW2 builds for the content to insist that you stumble upon the "right" build. It either needs to *tell* you exactly which build you should be using, or it needs to *accept* whichever build you happen to be using. > > > > > Yes it is my personal experience that quite literally every story step can be completed with every classes and a very wide ranging varriety of builds. Would you like me to stream one you find "Hard" maybe you'll learn something. > > Story is the perfect place for people to learn, its a low cost, low entry, low stress environment that only effects YOU and people YOU choose to play with. The encounters in the story are all properly designed, the only issue is Anet assumes a minimal amount player knowledge (IE not being a boosted 80) and you should within reason be able to figure out what to do. If you can't that's not on ANET and some internal reflecting may need to happen as to why you keep repeating the same actions that result in a failed state and getting the same result each time. > that would only matter, the day you are prepared to pay for the rest of us wildstar has already shown the error of making a mmo for hardcores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: >Yes it is my personal experience that quite literally every story step can be completed with every classes and a very wide ranging varriety of builds. Would you like me to stream one you find "Hard" maybe you'll learn something. No, because that misses the point entirely. *It's not about you.* It's not about whether you can do it, you don't matter to anyone other than yourself. What matters is that if *another* player is struggling with it, then *that player is struggling.* Different players come into the game with different skill levels and different expectations. The game needs to be as flexible as possible in handling that, providing experiences that adapt to where the player is at, or at least help the player to adapt to the game, rather than just assuming that the player will adapt to the game and punishing them if they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myhr.9108 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) Here is what I think : - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Myhr.9108 said: > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > Here is what I think : > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. if i have to change my build to do my PERSONAL story, then it would become someone elses story, right? i chose my build, because i like the playstyle, that is what i feel comfortable with guides are pretty useless, none of them are for my build , or they are written for players with top gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Myhr.9108 said: > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > Here is what I think : > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. Very much this. So I play the story content on a lot on a lot of different characters. If this were a dungeon people would maybe fail a few times, but because they repeat it, over and over again it's gets easier and easier. Most dungeons are on farm now for a lot of people who do dungeons. But most people do the story once, maybe twice. They don't know the mechanics. They have no practice. And they want to beat it the first time without issue. This would be no fun for me, because even if I have problems I learn how to adjust to the content. That's what the game actually is. They let you swap builds any time out of combat for a reason. If you need reflects for a fight, and you have a profession that can bring them, you use them. If you need more condi cleanse you bring that. Or stun breakers. You adjust your build to the strategy of the fight. But to learn the strategy of the fight, you need to learn patience. The problem is too many people just want to brute force stuff. There are plenty of ways to make stories easier on yourself. Places you can stand where you're safer and pull fewer mobs at one time. Skills and traits you can take. It was like that first time I was trying to do a jumping puzzle in Metica Province and wind kept blowing me off. I see some guy on a ranger, walk right through the wind. I'm like wut? Of course, he had stability with his elite skill, enough of it to use the skill to complete bypass that mechanic. A mesmer might have used blink instead. An ele could have used mist form. The point is, there are different things different professions cain do to clear content. The content isn't hard in the stories. It's a puzzle you need to solve. Making the stories easier would kill it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haishao.6851 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @battledrone.8315 said: > > @Myhr.9108 said: > > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > > > Here is what I think : > > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. > > if i have to change my build to do my PERSONAL story, then it would become someone elses story, right? > i chose my build, because i like the playstyle, that is what i feel comfortable with > guides are pretty useless, none of them are for my build , or they are written for players with top gear Changing builds and skills is a core mechanic of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Vayne.8563 said: > > @Myhr.9108 said: > > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > > > Here is what I think : > > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. > > Very much this. > > So I play the story content on a lot on a lot of different characters. If this were a dungeon people would maybe fail a few times, but because they repeat it, over and over again it's gets easier and easier. Most dungeons are on farm now for a lot of people who do dungeons. > > But most people do the story once, maybe twice. They don't know the mechanics. They have no practice. And they want to beat it the first time without issue. This would be no fun for me, because even if I have problems I learn how to adjust to the content. That's what the game actually is. They let you swap builds any time out of combat for a reason. If you need reflects for a fight, and you have a profession that can bring them, you use them. If you need more condi cleanse you bring that. Or stun breakers. You adjust your build to the strategy of the fight. But to learn the strategy of the fight, you need to learn patience. The problem is too many people just want to brute force stuff. > > There are plenty of ways to make stories easier on yourself. Places you can stand where you're safer and pull fewer mobs at one time. Skills and traits you can take. It was like that first time I was trying to do a jumping puzzle in Metica Province and wind kept blowing me off. I see some guy on a ranger, walk right through the wind. I'm like wut? Of course, he had stability with his elite skill, enough of it to use the skill to complete bypass that mechanic. A mesmer might have used blink instead. An ele could have used mist form. The point is, there are different things different professions cain do to clear content. > > The content isn't hard in the stories. It's a puzzle you need to solve. Making the stories easier would kill it for me. yea, we cant have that lets just kill the game instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanner Blackfeather.6509 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @battledrone.8315 said: > > @Myhr.9108 said: > > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > > > Here is what I think : > > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. > > if i have to change my build to do my PERSONAL story, then it would become someone elses story, right? > i chose my build, because i like the playstyle, that is what i feel comfortable with > guides are pretty useless, none of them are for my build , or they are written for players with top gear This game *absolutely* expects you to modify your build to the situation. Not necessarily fundamentally - you won't be expected to switch from Power to Condi or anything else that would require a change of all gear etc. You *should* however be willing to temporarily swap out a few utility skills and your Elite, maybe even swap between melee and ranged weapon. That said, I do think story instances should be a bit easier than they have been lately. Playing with someone who for neurological reasons have a hard time dodging, a reduced peripheral awareness and somewhat poor sense of direction, I really notice how their feeling of not being able to contribute due to getting downed/defeated too often have a strong negative impact on their enjoyment of the game. The **absolute worst offender** here is Hearts and Minds and its "penalty box", but several of the LW3 and PoF instances were also rough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @battledrone.8315 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > I do agree with the OP that a lot of story content is not meant to be soloed by a lot of character types. > > > > Utter nonsense. > > > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > > > That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > > > ...and that makes it bad for a game , that needs to keep players as long, as possible > if you expect all players to reach those standards, then you really dont belong in a mainstream mmo > it looks like anet is finally smelling the roses, but its prolly too late now Are you saying story fights should be balanced around the worst player with the worst build? Because thats a terrible idea. It would mean anyone with even a half decent build would blaze through the fight with absolutely 0 effort. Fights need to be balanced around the average casual player. If your build or skill level is below average for a casual you should need to either ask for help or make a couple of changes to get a bit more defense. You cant be totally unwilling to make any compromise whatsoever to your build and then say its too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki.6073 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Haishao.6851 said: > GW2 is easier than GW1 and both of them have always been casual games where you can quit and come back, or play at your own pace, and never get out-leveled and out-geared by others. > > Being casual never meant being bad. > > Casual has two definitions that apply to gaming, one being the frequency (play time) and the other being the level of focus/mindset (playing for "fun" vs "competitive"). You can not define how casual or hard core someone is solely by the first. Person A can play for 6 hours a day while person B plays 2-3 hours. Focusing strictly on time you would assume Person A is the hard core while Person B is the casual. However, if Person A is playing for "fun" while Person B plays ranked pvp and plays any pve content efficiently they would have more resources and a higher skill level due to difference in mind set. If someone plays for "fun", or isn't trying to play efficient it will cause them to play worse, or I guess by your standards, "being bad". By the way, being "bad" isn't really a negative thing in games, not everyone plays to be competitive or put effort into it, for some it's meant to pass time, be relaxing, etc; i.e being casual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Vayne.8563 said: >But most people do the story once, maybe twice. They don't know the mechanics. They have no practice. And they want to beat it the first time without issue. This would be no fun for me, because even if I have problems I learn how to adjust to the content. That's what the game actually is. They let you swap builds any time out of combat for a reason. If you need reflects for a fight, and you have a profession that can bring them, you use them. If you need more condi cleanse you bring that. Or stun breakers. You adjust your build to the strategy of the fight. But to learn the strategy of the fight, you need to learn patience. The problem is too many people just want to brute force stuff. I agree with your diagnosis, but not with your treatment. I do think that story missions would be easier on replays, easier when you know the mechanics and prepare ahead of time for them. I just disagree that this is how players *should* encounter them. These missions should be designed *for* players to beat on the first run through. They should be designed so that they teach players mechanics on the fly, and they can adapt how they play *during* that round of combat, rather than resigning themselves to dying and re-setting their build to adapt to something completely different. There are ways to do this, but really the easiest is just to not require tools that the player might not have at hand. There is room for content that requires multiple attempts and careful build-crafting, but I don't think story missions should be it. I think that in story missions, true difficulty of the type you seem to want should come in two forms, 1. challenge motes that more casual players don't have to turn on (although this makes the encounter take twice the effort to design), or 2. optional achievements, which are not necessary for clearing the enemy and moving on to the next task, but would present a challenge to people who want that sort of thing. PoF tends toward the latter. > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said: >This game absolutely expects you to modify your build to the situation. Not necessarily fundamentally - you won't be expected to switch from Power to Condi or anything else that would require a change of all gear etc. You should however be willing to temporarily swap out a few utility skills and your Elite, maybe even swap between melee and ranged weapon. But the thing is, you can't do that while in combat, so you'd only be able to do that if you died. And the game doesn't tell you HOW to change your build, so if you aren't comfortable with all the options available to you, you might have no idea what you're doing wrong or how to fix it, the game's just "too hard." Now, there are ways to address that. If, for example, a boss in a mission requires a certain build, like a bar-break or an anti-CC, or something, then you can have weaker enemies earlier in the mission, ones which you can beat without that mechanic, but where the mechanic would make those fights easier. This clues players in that they might need to change builds after beating these mobs. And of course they can make it more explicit. Have NPCs in the mission provide optional hints, like suggesting that maybe you use a stunbreaker move, or slot some stability, if those are important to the encounter. Again, it's not enough to just "fail" a player for not meeting the challenge, you also have to *teach* the player how he can do it right. > @zombyturtle.5980 said: >Are you saying story fights should be balanced around the worst player with the worst build? Because thats a terrible idea. It would mean anyone with even a half decent build would blaze through the fight with absolutely 0 effort. I think there are ways to satisfy both. One is to design encounters with "safety nets," so that good players can fight them and do well, clearing them through being good at what they do, but failing that, if the encounter is not going well at all, mechanisms could kick in that would "save" a bad player, giving him an easier comeback. Likely this would happen after one or more deaths, some bonus opportunity to shift the tide, but some of the stories of people fighting the Devourer of Souls were just heartbreaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > >Yes it is my personal experience that quite literally every story step can be completed with every classes and a very wide ranging varriety of builds. Would you like me to stream one you find "Hard" maybe you'll learn something. > > No, because that misses the point entirely. *It's not about you.* It's not about whether you can do it, you don't matter to anyone other than yourself. What matters is that if *another* player is struggling with it, then *that player is struggling.* Different players come into the game with different skill levels and different expectations. The game needs to be as flexible as possible in handling that, providing experiences that adapt to where the player is at, or at least help the player to adapt to the game, rather than just assuming that the player will adapt to the game and punishing them if they don't. > > > I agree it's not about me. So, which class and build are you having such a hard time with so i can showcase to you that any story content is soloable ? The story content is quite literally built around being a single player experience, the sheer fact is we have so many people who for whatever reason refuse to learn to play the game and want it to be watered down to such a point that you can literally run into the current story naked and beat it with no weapons. Sorry that doesn't fly. The story is a progressive element of the game, you are expected to have a bare minimum level of understanding of the game in order to play through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > So, which class and build are you having such a hard time with so i can showcase to you that any story content is soloable ? I'm not, I've been able to clear all the story missions on my first playthrough, in most cases with few or no checkpoint resets (occasionally more than a few, but not always the ones other players have reported). You'd have to ask the thousands of other players that struggle from time to time and dance for them. Or you could understand that they don't want that from you, they would just like to be able to beat the enemy using the build they went into the fight with, and using the skills they have in themselves. Again, it's not about you. You have no role to play in this other than to say "I understand what you want from this and hope that you get it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @battledrone.8315 said: > > @Vayne.8563 said: > > > @Myhr.9108 said: > > > It's funny because I just replayed the whole Living World Season 2 a few days ago. The first time on my main character, I remember it was quite an ordeal, with lots of mechanics to grasp, aoe spawning everywhere. It was frustrating, it was unclear, and I remember dying quite a lot, and having mixed feelings about the whole experience. > > > > > > But as I said, while redoing it solo a couple days ago on an alt, I was surprised at how easy it was and I breezed through it. Of course, I must say that this alt was better equipped and its build was probably one of the best to solo that kind of content (minionmancer...with how GW2 aggro works outside of raids, it's a huuuuge survivability boost) > > > > > > Here is what I think : > > > - a lot of the difficulty comes from not knowing the mechanics and trying to figure them on the fly. Imho, the devs do not always make it very clear what you need to do, and you sometimes have to analyze what are the mechanics, how many there are, if they are related, etc, etc. Sometimes you have to read info in the little buffs and/or debuffs, on your character or on the enemy, and it pains me that such important info is only displayed by mousing over such little boxes. But, when you're done deciphering info and memorizing the different patterns and mechanics and phases, it becomes actually quite easy. It's just that doing all that WHILE fighting is hard. But knowledge makes all the fights really trivial. So, alternatively, look for some guide that explain the mechanics before the fight. I know that it's a bit immersion-breaking, but that's the best I've got. That and... > > > - your build is extremely important, and I don't necessarily talk about gear, but more about utilities, and my main advice is : bring as much pets as you can. No matter the class, you want as much meatshields to stand between you and the mobs, with the added bonus that they tend to do damage even when you're still trying to figure the mechanics (as a thief, try thief's guild, I'm not kidding, it's actually the best elite...though luck for Warriors and Revenants, though). For the rest, bring defensive utilities. Burst and damage is rarely needed besides what your weapon skills already provide you with. > > > > Very much this. > > > > So I play the story content on a lot on a lot of different characters. If this were a dungeon people would maybe fail a few times, but because they repeat it, over and over again it's gets easier and easier. Most dungeons are on farm now for a lot of people who do dungeons. > > > > But most people do the story once, maybe twice. They don't know the mechanics. They have no practice. And they want to beat it the first time without issue. This would be no fun for me, because even if I have problems I learn how to adjust to the content. That's what the game actually is. They let you swap builds any time out of combat for a reason. If you need reflects for a fight, and you have a profession that can bring them, you use them. If you need more condi cleanse you bring that. Or stun breakers. You adjust your build to the strategy of the fight. But to learn the strategy of the fight, you need to learn patience. The problem is too many people just want to brute force stuff. > > > > There are plenty of ways to make stories easier on yourself. Places you can stand where you're safer and pull fewer mobs at one time. Skills and traits you can take. It was like that first time I was trying to do a jumping puzzle in Metica Province and wind kept blowing me off. I see some guy on a ranger, walk right through the wind. I'm like wut? Of course, he had stability with his elite skill, enough of it to use the skill to complete bypass that mechanic. A mesmer might have used blink instead. An ele could have used mist form. The point is, there are different things different professions cain do to clear content. > > > > The content isn't hard in the stories. It's a puzzle you need to solve. Making the stories easier would kill it for me. > > yea, we cant have that > lets just kill the game instead Making the game too easy could kill the game just as easily. I love how some people are so wrapped up in their own interpretation of things, they immediately assume they have some kind of majority and that if those wishes aren't implemented it'll somehow bode terribly for the game. Games require progression and progression generally involves a harder difficulty. WoW has gotten easier and easier but the numbers keep going down. Maybe your plan will kill the game. Who can say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 I defeated Mordremoth with 3 characters, I am a little late with playing through PoF though as I take my time. One is a soldier guardian, the next a berserk thief and the third is a condi ranger. All three run on vanilla skills because I find bows and rifles unsuitable for a guardian and a thief and my ranger is a ranger and not a druid. I have yet to encounter a story instance I could not solo. Getting the AP out of them is a whole different story, but passing them was possible on three very different toons. Rageinducing with some instances? Sure. And speaking of Wow, I have a tank Paladin there I did not really put much effort in. Even then I mow down common mobs and have yet to fail an instance where the Legion invades a part of the shattered islands. I am surely not the best player, but the majority of my deaths in WoW is due to not paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemmar.8491 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Seriously, i read you first sentence and almost spilled my drink. I don't mean offense, but you don't know what you are talking about. WoW is a lot easier than GW2. It's not even a contest, especially when you take into account DBM/Bigwigs, weak auras and UI customization. Mythic WoW raids are about as hard as a world boss in this game. In the questing and open world everything falls over in about 3 hits. This game most definitely doesn't pander to WoW players who are used to faceroll and get everything in one convenient NPC. GW2 is literally the opposite. Not that its for the best though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @zombyturtle.5980 said: > > @battledrone.8315 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > I do agree with the OP that a lot of story content is not meant to be soloed by a lot of character types. > > > > > > Utter nonsense. > > > > > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > > > > > That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > > > > > ...and that makes it bad for a game , that needs to keep players as long, as possible > > if you expect all players to reach those standards, then you really dont belong in a mainstream mmo > > it looks like anet is finally smelling the roses, but its prolly too late now > > Are you saying story fights should be balanced around the worst player with the worst build? Because thats a terrible idea. It would mean anyone with even a half decent build would blaze through the fight with absolutely 0 effort. > > Fights need to be balanced around the average casual player. If your build or skill level is below average for a casual you should need to either ask for help or make a couple of changes to get a bit more defense. You cant be totally unwilling to make any compromise whatsoever to your build and then say its too hard. > >if i cant finish the story with any given class /weapon combo, then those weapons/classes shouldnt be in the game at all alternatively, there should be a big warning on those set i can solo a 10 point boss, but im not allowed to continue the story? makes no sense at all didnt you read the hype numbers they boasted with at pof launch? 430 mio hearts in 5 years..thats only 1,5 mio characters to top level this game is in trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @Nemmar.8491 said: > Seriously, i read you first sentence and almost spilled my drink. > > I don't mean offense, but you don't know what you are talking about. WoW is a lot easier than GW2. It's not even a contest, especially when you take into account DBM/Bigwigs, weak auras and UI customization. Mythic WoW raids are about as hard as a world boss in this game. > > In the questing and open world everything falls over in about 3 hits. > > This game most definitely doesn't pander to WoW players who are used to faceroll and get everything in one convenient NPC. GW2 is literally the opposite. Not that its for the best though. some of it is actually easier, than wow, and that makes the difference even more obvious they never learned to make the zones conform in difficulty, and the difference between open world and story content is just mind blowing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalibri.5861 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 It feels so strange to me when I see comments or complaints about the difficulty of open world and story content, particularly recently with Path of Fire. Not trying to be condescending in the least, but while I can certainly accept that people are different and some have trouble, I just don't understand it. I exclusively solo outside of fractals and events. I don't think I'm particularly good at the game, and I don't really pay attention to meta builds. I have invested in gearing my characters to full ascended, and I've spent years with the classes so I know how they work. I die sometimes, but in a game like this, you're supposed to fail occasionally, so that's _good_. One particular complaint I've heard with PoF is that people get overrun by swarms of mobs. Why don't they just back off (even mid-fight) and reassess their situation? Like... look at what happened, look at what you did, look at your build, consider your options, and adapt accordingly. Is this not common thought? Again, not trying to be condescending and I could understand how it may sound that way, but it really, genuinely seems strange to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @battledrone.8315 said: > > @zombyturtle.5980 said: > > > @battledrone.8315 said: > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > > I do agree with the OP that a lot of story content is not meant to be soloed by a lot of character types. > > > > > > > > Utter nonsense. > > > > > > > > The entirety of the story is built upon being solo content. Every class has the ability to solo literally all parts of the story, you just may have to break your own "habbits" or comfort zone and use different weapons and utilities. > > > > > > > > That doesn't make it not meant for solo, it makes it good design as it requires players to learn their classes. > > > > > > > ...and that makes it bad for a game , that needs to keep players as long, as possible > > > if you expect all players to reach those standards, then you really dont belong in a mainstream mmo > > > it looks like anet is finally smelling the roses, but its prolly too late now > > > > Are you saying story fights should be balanced around the worst player with the worst build? Because thats a terrible idea. It would mean anyone with even a half decent build would blaze through the fight with absolutely 0 effort. > > > > Fights need to be balanced around the average casual player. If your build or skill level is below average for a casual you should need to either ask for help or make a couple of changes to get a bit more defense. You cant be totally unwilling to make any compromise whatsoever to your build and then say its too hard. > > > >if i cant finish the story with any given class /weapon combo, then those weapons/classes shouldnt be in the game at all > alternatively, there should be a big warning on those set > i can solo a 10 point boss, but im not allowed to continue the story? makes no sense at all > didnt you read the hype numbers they boasted with at pof launch? 430 mio hearts in 5 years..thats only 1,5 mio characters to top level > this game is in trouble I have ten characters at max level. Ive only done hearts, to any significant degree, on one of them (for map completion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takatsu.9416 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 The game is not a casual game. It has a good balance id say that doesn't serve either extreme. But it's not designed for casuals, you actually have to get adequate enough for relatively easy solo story content. And expansion story content is a bit harder because expansions are endgame content. It's designed for you to do after you've mastered the core game which includes things like your core dungeons and the area of Orr, world bosses etc. You should have learned the mechanics. I think the game does need a better tutorial and in game training process. But Right from the very start at the very basics: Dodges. Dodges mean you actually have to do something when you see the red circles of death and the attacks coming. At least it also means you need to be running around and avoiding things. Just doing this and timing it alone will help you master most of the content. I find that a lot of new players from other games namely WoW are dying even while levelling because they think you can just sit and take the damage . I see ranges classes not moving when the mobs get close. This is a simple knowledge issue, maybe a bit of practice to make it a habit Only thing expansion really adds to the kind of damage and attacks you are exposed to in core big content, is extra CCs and conditions . This is why every class has skills with notes like breaks stun, evasion, blocks attacks, shadowstep/blink, condition cleanse, heal and more. This game is not intended for you to take the damage. It is an action combat system and you have to know these skills and respond. I solo all my content on glass DPS classes. I have no problem with surviving it because I make sure I know which skills can be used for defensive purposes and I also add skills on my utilities that usually cater around stunbreaks or damage avoidance. The only thing that needs practice is timing and that is something im sure everyone can master with practice and observation. Most pve content has a big wind up, you will see the attack about to come or you will see red circles and have a short window of time to move out of it. The game doesn't require high skill, it just requires a bit of the basic understandings of the basic combat system The game shouldn't be that easy or else I and many others wouldn't play it. I too am interested in the story but if we don't actually get to flex any fighting muscles or work with mechanics then we might as well just read a book or watch a movie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 If there is a problem, it's that MMO's try to disguise their story elements as single player RPG's. Single player games tend to have difficulty sliders, which allow them to appeal to a wider range of player skill and desires. The MMO version is the ability to do story with other people. The problem with that is that since the MMO story is emulating the SPRPG, this generates an expectation on the part of players that they ought to be able to solo the story. RPG's are essentially selling power fantasies. Nothing puts a damper on power fantasies faster than needing other people to get through what is expected to be solo content. I don't think there's much of a cure for that. The underpinnings needed to allow for elective scaling are just not there. Maybe it would be possible to put in an option to select for number of players, then allow scaling to handle the difficulty adjustment. I don't think, though, that ANet has the time to retrofit that system for all existing story steps. Whether they could do it going forward or not, I cannot comment on. That said, GW2 story has several things I think are poor design. 1) The aforementioned penalty box in Hearts and Minds is the most egregious example. Whoever came up with that one was not in any way considering whether it was going to be fun for the player who made a mistake. 2) GW2 mobs in general tend to have very limited tactic "suites." This means that they tend to repeat the same tactics over and over and over. When at least one of those tactics is annoying, this results in highly annoying fights. Say one of those moves is a CC. If that's coming every few seconds, the CD's on stun breaks, stability, and avoidance (block, dodge, etc.) are too long, meaning the fight (against a mob that has a lot of health) leaves an aftertaste of annoyance rather than enjoyment. 3) Large pattern AoE is way too prevalent. Whether this adds difficulty or not, it certainly adds annoyance. 4) There are occasional PoV issues due to walls, getting trapped in morphing infrastructure, etc. 5) (This may well be a personal peeve.) There is too much reliance on gimmick mechanics. A little of this might be OK, but I would greatly prefer that crap be largely confined to raids and fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battledrone.8315 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 > @takatsu.9416 said: > The game is not a casual game. It has a good balance id say that doesn't serve either extreme. But it's not designed for casuals, you actually have to get adequate enough for relatively easy solo story content. And expansion story content is a bit harder because expansions are endgame content. It's designed for you to do after you've mastered the core game which includes things like your core dungeons and the area of Orr, world bosses etc. You should have learned the mechanics. I think the game does need a better tutorial and in game training process. But > > Right from the very start at the very basics: > Dodges. Dodges mean you actually have to do something when you see the red circles of death and the attacks coming. At least it also means you need to be running around and avoiding things. Just doing this and timing it alone will help you master most of the content. I find that a lot of new players from other games namely WoW are dying even while levelling because they think you can just sit and take the damage . I see ranges classes not moving when the mobs get close. This is a simple knowledge issue, maybe a bit of practice to make it a habit > > Only thing expansion really adds to the kind of damage and attacks you are exposed to in core big content, is extra CCs and conditions . This is why every class has skills with notes like breaks stun, evasion, blocks attacks, shadowstep/blink, condition cleanse, heal and more. > > This game is not intended for you to take the damage. It is an action combat system and you have to know these skills and respond. > > I solo all my content on glass DPS classes. I have no problem with surviving it because I make sure I know which skills can be used for defensive purposes and I also add skills on my utilities that usually cater around stunbreaks or damage avoidance. > > The only thing that needs practice is timing and that is something im sure everyone can master with practice and observation. Most pve content has a big wind up, you will see the attack about to come or you will see red circles and have a short window of time to move out of it. > > The game doesn't require high skill, it just requires a bit of the basic understandings of the basic combat system > > The game shouldn't be that easy or else I and many others wouldn't play it. I too am interested in the story but if we don't actually get to flex any fighting muscles or work with mechanics then we might as well just read a book or watch a movie but it was certainly advertised and sold as a casual game..."play as ýou want"...millions of sold boxes from day 1 most of the game IS pretty casual..except those nasty story missions and the usual hardcore content normally devs find ways to avoid difficulty spikes..anet just revels in them lets see how the story progresses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now