Can we get a permanent way to display KP for raid bosses?

[apharma.3741]

Kill proof means nothing, you can have someone buy a clear or a couple of them and get plenty of the minis and items from the boss and you can use a chat code generator for stacks (unless asked to split the stack and link fast). Titles don’t work either because people can buy or be carried through, had to replace a pug for some friends on 100CM because the pug didn’t dodge a single mechanic or use special action and was essentially wiping them on Arkk for 30 mins.

 

Titles for the number of times you’ve done something might work but then again you can be carried through raids very easily which I have seen.

[savacli.8172]

Oh boy....this again

 

/SipsLemonade

 

Here's the problem. GW2 was advertised as a casual game and to date still maintains that claim. As in, there is nothing mechanically that holds back a player from any of the content in game. The slight exception being Fractals that operate much like a tower; you can enter the early "floors" but you have to get your hands on certain items (ascended gear) before you can progress to the later floors. Even then the game is still generous enough to provide massive accessibility to ascended items to help get you to the later islands in fractals.

 

Bringing this back to OP.... Killproof honestly demonstrates nothing. A player could have 130 LI, but I have no way of knowing whether that's 130 Vale Guard kills or 10 Full Clears. Same thing with the Boss fragments. Someone who posts 25 VG Fragments could be anywhere from a player killing VG 5 times all the way to killing VG 25 times (since fragments drop 1-5). Even worse, Killproof doesn't at all tell you what strategy was used to get the kill.

 

Ultimately, at the end of the day, Killproof only proves one thing: you were there at the time of the boss's death and had credit to loot the chest. Other than that it's just word of mouth if you don't have a video to document every single kill.

 

Granted, when raids first came out Killproof made a lot of sense because there was no study material: no qT builds, Dulfy hadn't posted guides, and YouTube was scarce on kill videos outside of top guilds. Suddenly casual players were being asked to spend time practicing bosses, have sensible gear, and learn to be a team player. So, yeah, it made sense that you had to prove you had been around for a kill back in the day. That all being said, killproof presentation still being a thing to this day is very much a community mindset nowadays. Personally, when I have to pug (e.g. missing nights in my static) I don't bother with squad's that ask for Killproof (and trust me, I could throw down a small army of killproof) because I find it counterproductive. I'd much rather dive right in. A squad would learn more from me by asking a handful of questions and seeing me on the field in 30 seconds than it would take to shuffle through my inventory to find a mini or to check my bank for a fragment/armor piece.

 

Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard. But there's no sense in asking the devs to put something together to further feed bad community behavior when there is much better items to have the devs look at.

 

Also, in regards why other games aren't as "elitist" as GW2? Well, look at the demographic. GW2 started off casual and hardcore content (relative to its prior content). Other MMO's content was already at a higher difficulty to begin with so the community in general already has a more hardcore mindset.

[Mithos.5182]

All of you arguing about whether or not KP/LI are a good metric of experience are missing the point. I don't think they are either. But, and here's the kicker, *they are what we have.* In the effort to search out experienced players to do a clear run of any boss or wing, they are the only quasi-proof of experience with that content. Most people seem to be in agreement that they are poor proof. But hey, its something - and its something that the community has latched onto. Like I said earlier, good games understand how their community is interacting with their game design.

 

I'm not a game designer or a game psychologist so I don't know what the answer is. But right now, the system is exclusive to newer raiders instead of inclusive. I was trying to spark discussion about fixing that.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

 

I disagree with you because GW2 is the way it is. If their philosophy were to militantly let skill speak for itself, then they should understand that their system is not accomplishing that. In fact, quite the opposite. If it were as you say, they should want to change the way this works such that skill can speak for itself.

 

> @savacli.8172 said:

> Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard. But there's no sense in asking the devs to put something together to further feed bad community behavior when there is much better items to have the devs look at.

 

No, it isn't. But I think there must be a better/more descriptive way than one number. And one that takes up inventory spots at that.

 

 

[nagr.1593]

> @savacli.8172 said:

> Bringing this back to OP.... Killproof honestly demonstrates nothing. A player could have 130 LI, but I have no way of knowing whether that's 130 Vale Guard kills or 10 Full Clears.

 

or the 3rd subset can be Chat-bound LI B) e.g. LI that exists purely in binary-to-chat text representation, without any virtual presence in an inventory or bank 'slot' ..

 

> Granted, when raids first came out Killproof made a lot of sense because there was no study material: no qT builds, Dulfy hadn't posted guides, and YouTube was scarce on kill videos outside of top guilds. Suddenly casual players were being asked to spend time practicing bosses, have sensible gear, and learn to be a team player. So, yeah, it made sense that you had to prove you had been around for a kill back in the day.

 

intersting point thouogh, look this transition from Gearproof to Killproof (though technically Gearproof can be a subset of Killproof, but thats another matter). i think if i remember from cof p1 farm, 4 wars 1 chrono meta was the thing yah but not enuough sometime to just show up with right profession, you have to ping your gear and stuff so they can be assure of ur competence and dedication towards the then-meta. Same thing if i'm remembering correctly on arah for exp speed clears.. even I myself half-jokingly would put a post like 'arah p1 exp, ping legendary on join'.. sometimes they would actually ping but sometimes a troll would join to ridicule my post and then leave. most the exp grps did do a gear check though.. whereas now, its a kill check or a title check. not sure whether its a step up or within the same lvl of ambiguity.. it anyone's guess.

 

> Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard.

Somtimes its a crime yah.. i remember this concrete example cos it happen to me once tho. Some moron commander refuse my killproof of mini and demanded to see boss tokens or pieces (whatever the crap that drops but only drops if you satisfy a prerequisite condition) and refuse to let me join otherwise. i don't think he was aware that it doesn't necessarily drop either. as a general rule, i never rep while raiding so i opt out of those drops, my bags enough cluttered with useless quest and rubbish repeat drops (for ex., the kind of drops that drop repeatedly again and again even after you **destroy** them once by type out there full names.. yah) so i dont need more useless junk on top of that.

 

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Mithos.5182 said:

> All of you arguing about whether or not KP/LI are a good metric of experience are missing the point. I don't think they are either. But, and here's the kicker, *they are what we have.* In the effort to search out experienced players to do a clear run of any boss or wing, they are the only quasi-proof of experience with that content. Most people seem to be in agreement that they are poor proof. But hey, its something - and its something that the community has latched onto. Like I said earlier, good games understand how their community is interacting with their game design.

 

Yes, of course "they are what we have." The question is whether ANet should be in the business of trying to code it into the game, when it's demonstrably a bad metric and when it's not clear whether it's beneficial to the game to use any metric.

 

I have no problem with groups wanting people to 'prove' experience. It makes it easy for me to decide to join some other group, who is more interested in people who can demonstrate expertise.

 

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

>

> I disagree with you because GW2 is the way it is. If their philosophy were to militantly let skill speak for itself, then they should understand that their system is not accomplishing that. In fact, quite the opposite. If it were as you say, they should want to change the way this works such that skill can speak for itself.

 

On the contrary, skill speaks for itself _except_ for that subset of people that insists on requiring "proofs". What fraction of the raid community do you think asks for LI? It's an obvious group, of course. But it's unclear if those are groups are more successful than groups that don't ask. Do they spend less total time forming|reforming groups and clearing than groups that don't ask? Are the people in these groups less frustrated overall?

 

There's lots of evidence that LI/mini/title groups don't do any better, although of course none of us have enough evidence to answer any of the questions above definitively.

 

In the end, it's still fundamentally different from asking ANet for "salvage all" — it's a request to support a particular style of play over other styles.

(By the way: that doesn't mean that ANet shouldn't do it; it just means it involves more than changing the mechanics.)

[Blue Hare.8612]

> @nagr.1593 said:

 

> or the 3rd subset can be Chat-bound LI B) e.g. LI that exists purely in binary-to-chat text representation, without any virtual presence in an inventory or bank 'slot' ..

 

I suppose that would be easy to achieve with a simple macro:

 

"ENTER , Ctrl + V , ENTER"

 

Then just copy the right chatcode to clipboard and you are set. The macto might require some delays in bitween keys, maybe 25ms.

 

With the macro bound to a key you can even spam LI like it was in your inventory, no one can tell the difference. Dunno how common this is but being so easy I would say pretty common. LI means pretty much nothing, even if you spam it. And spamming is ugly and annoying.

 

Asking to spam LI is just "Hooray! You know how chatcodes work, but can you raid?"

[zealex.9410]

I think the proper way to display kp atm is gw2 radar.

[Fengzhou.9853]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

>

 

It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

 

I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

[Rennie.6750]

The devs should just add chat codes for minis and guild hall stuff. That way there's no need to go through inventories and collections, run back and forth to the bank to grab specific stuff they're requesting, you can just spam your chat code and everyone is happy.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @Fengzhou.9853 said:

> It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

 

1. If there is no training run you can either wait for the next to pop up or **set up your own lfg**. People in this game are lazy, especially in this game and I don't know why. Be pro-active and you'll be successful in the end. Worked for so many players in the past!

 

2. If you really worked hard for the collection you would have no issues to hold the leggy armor in your hand.

 

> I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

 

Hey, you are saying raid mechanics are easy. It should be easy to lead a raid squad from the scratch and guide 10 people to victory then - **easily**.

If it's so easy why aren't trainings run 100% successful? See above, open your own run with the tag "no unnecessary stress". Let's see how easy you get things done!

 

The only thing I read here: "Well, I know I'm good enough to get bosses down with experienced people but they won't take me because it seems I'm unexperienced."

I can tell you there is a lot of like minded people out there and I have raided with them. The majority is **not** able to kill raid bosses in few attempts. That's the reason why people set requirements. They do it for a reason because the percentage of heavy casual players is high in this game and many of them will wipe you over and over again no matter how often you'll explain the mechanics to them. Hell, just watch some random GW2 twitch streamers in training runs and you'll see that a lot of them has no clue what they have to do with their weapon or utility skills.

Of course a few requirements are absurdly high but even dedicated raiders won't join them. On the other hand you can have around 70 LIs now of just having done Escort by now which is in no way any good marker for being prepared for other bosses like VG, Cairn or even Xera/Matthias.

[Fengzhou.9853]

> @Vinceman.4572 said:

> > @Fengzhou.9853 said:

> > It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

>

> 1. If there is no training run you can either wait for the next to pop up or **set up your own lfg**. People in this game are lazy, especially in this game and I don't know why. Be pro-active and you'll be successful in the end. Worked for so many players in the past!

>

> 2. If you really worked hard for the collection you would have no issues to hold the leggy armor in your hand.

>

> > I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

>

> Hey, you are saying raid mechanics are easy. It should be easy to lead a raid squad from the scratch and guide 10 people to victory then - **easily**.

> If it's so easy why aren't trainings run 100% successful? See above, open your own run with the tag "no unnecessary stress". Let's see how easy you get things done!

>

> The only thing I read here: "Well, I know I'm good enough to get bosses down with experienced people but they won't take me because it seems I'm unexperienced."

> I can tell you there is a lot of like minded people out there and I have raided with them. The majority is **not** able to kill raid bosses in few attempts. That's the reason why people set requirements. They do it for a reason because the percentage of heavy casual players is high in this game and many of them will wipe you over and over again no matter how often you'll explain the mechanics to them. Hell, just watch some random GW2 twitch streamers in training runs and you'll see that a lot of them has no clue what they have to do with their weapon or utility skills.

> Of course a few requirements are absurdly high but even dedicated raiders won't join them. On the other hand you can have around 70 LIs now of just having done Escort by now which is in no way any good marker for being prepared for other bosses like VG, Cairn or even Xera/Matthias.

 

Except I tried that and people don't join.. and I'm no leader at all. I don't know majority of the fights and watching videos only goes so far. I'm extremely shy and not much of a leader. That said, I do know how to follow instruction pretty well and learn rather quick. The self confidence isn't something I have a lot of when it comes to putting that leadership step forward and it is (in my opinion) not fair to lead a group and form up and know absolutely nothing about what I'm about to walk into.

 

This is a case of easier said than done for some of us. Time will tell.

[Rhiannon.1726]

There are several raid training guilds and discord groups out there, which don't ask for kill proofs.

[Vinceman.4572]

Two advices:

 

1. Look for a training guild

 

2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

 

It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

[Rednik.3809]

Just makes achievements linkable, geez. Also linking KP is a one of the most dumb things I ever saw in PvE game.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Rednik.3809 said:

> Just makes achievements linkable, geez. Also linking KP is a one of the most kitten things I ever saw in PvE game.

 

If you make achievements linkable, there will be chatcodes for them just like people link LIs and other stuff these days :)

 

The only foolproof answer for this issue is full player inspection feature :)

[Fengzhou.9853]

> @Vinceman.4572 said:

> Two advices:

>

> 1. Look for a training guild

>

> 2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

>

> It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

 

Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

[Vinceman.4572]

> @Fengzhou.9853 said:

> > @Vinceman.4572 said:

> > Two advices:

> >

> > 1. Look for a training guild

> >

> > 2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

> >

> > It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

>

> Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

 

Then look at the two advices. Many many players have done so, without using voice chats or being in there muted etc. You have to be active and look for they won't do it for you.

[Fengzhou.9853]

> @Vinceman.4572 said:

> > @Fengzhou.9853 said:

> > > @Vinceman.4572 said:

> > > Two advices:

> > >

> > > 1. Look for a training guild

> > >

> > > 2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

> > >

> > > It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

> >

> > Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

>

> Then look at the two advices. Many many players have done so, without using voice chats or being in there muted etc. You have to be active and look for they won't do it for you.

 

I am sorry.. but your reply sounds like it's for someone else...? Did you even read what I had written? I'm having a hard time trying to understand what voice chat and being muted has to do with any of this. I never once stated I couldn't or wouldn't use a voice chat. I use discord all the time. I simply stated the simple fact that I am not leadership material and I follow instructions well and learn quick.. and that the stigma behind raids and how community behaves in this game are a huge detriment and drive away people like myself who are either just anxious and shy about trying.. or are just simply tired of the tryhard mentality others like to ram down our throats.

 

'Make your own group!' again. I am not leadership material. I will NOT make a group without knowing what to do, how to do it. Watching videos isn't enough and isn't the same as actual experience. Then, when you have sporadic times (ie not on during prime time hours) the chances and likelyhood of landing a group for training or beyond dramatically diminishes..

 

I am shocked that this is hard for people to comprehend...

[Vinceman.4572]

Did you even read?

 

1. Look for a training guild

 

2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

 

Both things have nothing to do with leadership material! On the contrary, you'll find some interesting groups to start with **that already have one or several leaders**. In no way you are forced to be the boss or make calls. Those groups would appreciate your effort, your will to be a teamplayer and your subordination for the team. You'll be a lucky pick for most of the groups because it's easier to integrate a teamplayer than an egocentric player with leading ambitions just after he joined a new group.

The only thing in which you can't be shy is to reply to a forum post, like here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/looking-for-guild because those groups/guild have already been active when posting their offer. If you don't take action to answer such entrance card you won't succeed due to the reason that no one is out there knowing about your existence.

I think you were making the wrong effort that some players did: _Don't use the LFG to start raiding!_ (This is only recommended for people with a healthy frustration tolerance, a good self-confidence, a lot of dedication and/or experienced raiders)