Now we need Mirage Clone Fix

[apharma.3741]

> @Draco.9480 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

> > They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

>

> still they can solo lupicus faster than necro

 

Last I checked Lupi wasn’t a raid boss and they are all talking about raids.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

>

> Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?

 

No, it suffers from needing a lot more support and having a steeper learning curve.

[Belorn.2659]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

>

> Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?

 

For the median numbers, if we take out mirage then multiple classes goes from second highest to top DPS. Weaver suffer from complicated rotation and high dependence on distorts from support mesmers to achieve their numbers, which is why weaver is not the best choice on a average successful run.

 

A way to look at it is what kind of group are we talking about. Is it a random selection of those players who done raiding since the last balance patch, or are we talking about the top 1% who focus on speed clears? Speed clears skips raid mechanics and is generally always in melee range and have less time to do burst damage, and this favor certain type of builds.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Belorn.2659 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > > > on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

> > > >

> > > > We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

> > > >

> > > > The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

> > >

> > > Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

> > >

> > > VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531

> > > Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922

> > > Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866

> > > Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149

> > > Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520

> > > KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853

> > > Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687

> > > Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646

> > > Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435

> > > Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340

> > > Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

> > >

> > > Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

> > >

> > > If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

> >

> > TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

>

> Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

>

> VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258

> Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570

> Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137

> Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469

> Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801

> KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906

> Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349

> Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770

> MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012

> Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384

> Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

>

> Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

>

> If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

 

Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players _want_ to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

[Mikeskies.1536]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > > > > on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

> > > > >

> > > > > We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

> > > > >

> > > > > The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

> > > >

> > > > Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

> > > >

> > > > VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531

> > > > Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922

> > > > Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866

> > > > Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149

> > > > Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520

> > > > KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853

> > > > Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687

> > > > Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646

> > > > Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435

> > > > Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340

> > > > Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

> > > >

> > > > Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

> > > >

> > > > If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

> > >

> > > TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

> >

> > Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

> >

> > VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258

> > Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570

> > Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137

> > Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469

> > Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801

> > KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906

> > Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349

> > Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770

> > MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012

> > Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384

> > Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

> >

> > Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

> >

> > If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

>

> Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players _want_ to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

 

What makes me saddest is the players who play the 45k DPS clone mirage build then proceed to do 12k DPS on Cairn.

[Zenith.7301]

I can't even play my Scourge anymore after Anet demolished it, I'd rather have broken mirages as a class option than see the class also nuked into utter irrelevance like they did with scourge.

 

The nerf to scourge in PvE is entirely inexcusable, and for that very reason I don't want this balance team anywhere near mirage. Instead of fixing a bug that hits twice they'll decimate the build as they did with scourge and dagger/warhorn tempest.

 

I'm hoping sword weaver gets some extra buffs because I'm sick and tired of ele staff. A ranged weapon with the strongest aoe/cleave in the game should NEVER be outdpsing a melee weapon on boss damage.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > > > > > on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

> > > > >

> > > > > VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531

> > > > > Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922

> > > > > Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866

> > > > > Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149

> > > > > Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520

> > > > > KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853

> > > > > Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687

> > > > > Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646

> > > > > Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435

> > > > > Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340

> > > > > Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

> > > > >

> > > > > Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

> > > >

> > > > TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

> > >

> > > Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

> > >

> > > VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258

> > > Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570

> > > Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137

> > > Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469

> > > Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801

> > > KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906

> > > Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349

> > > Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770

> > > MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012

> > > Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384

> > > Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

> > >

> > > Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

> > >

> > > If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

> >

> > Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players _want_ to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

>

> What makes me saddest is the players who play the 45k DPS clone mirage build then proceed to do 12k DPS on Cairn.

 

Most GW2 players are not that good honestly.

[FaboBabo.3581]

"Mirage needs nerf"

"It needs a Bug Fix"

"No bug do Nerf Fast, clones do too much confu stacks"

 

- Legend Division

[Belorn.2659]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> A ranged weapon with the strongest aoe/cleave in the game should NEVER be outdpsing a melee weapon on boss damage.

 

The range of a class is dictate by the skill with the lowest range, not the weapon. The top 1% who make staff weaver into the strongest DPS do not range bosses from afar using only the subset of skills and traits that allow long range. Check out speed clears for for VG, sab, KC, xera, and a rather obvious aspect pops out. They don't do tactic that require long range.

 

A long range golem benchmark would be interesting to see from the community. It should also be said that the strongest aoe/cleave in the game will always be epidemic when used in the right situation. A good necro can single handed deal with shards for xera and removing that mechanic for the rest of the 10 man party, with minimal decrease to boss DPS. A staff ele can't do this.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

There are some stupid comments in this thread xD Mirage bug will be fixed it took them a while to fix the scourge bug so give it time, as for eles Weaver is meant to do top dps but it also needs Chronos and Healers to be able to do that.

[Gambit.9501]

all I can read is:

_hurr durr imma virgin necro and im taking out my butt-hurt on mesmer_

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

[Loboling.5293]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Do you even know where the bug is on mirage that allows it to deal so much damage? Hint, its not the clones, its one of the axe skills.

 

All the more reasons for them to nerfs the Greatsword to the ground... For gw2 balance, it's all about identifying the problem, and then implementing nonsense changes, aimed to confuse the players for months at a time. ;P

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

 

You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

 

The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

 

It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

[apharma.3741]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

>

> You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

>

> The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

>

> It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

 

The other 40% were the bastions of balance, Firebrands...

[OriOri.8724]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

>

> You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

>

> The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

>

> It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

 

A lot of players think their skill level is far above where they play at. When a class overperforms enough to put them at that level, they think its all personal skill, and don't realize they are being carried. So of course they claim the class is balanced, because if it wasn't, they would have to face the truth that they aren't nearly as good of a player as they think they are. It happens with every spec when its overperforming. People who aren't that good will pick it up, be carried, and claim that its balanced because they are suddenly winning fights

[ArthurDent.9538]

> @Belorn.2659 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

> > >

> > > Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

> >

> > We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

> >

> > The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

>

> Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

>

> VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531

> Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922

> Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866

> Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149

> Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520

> KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853

> Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687

> Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646

> Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435

> Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340

> Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

>

> Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

>

> If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

 

That condi weaver dps on Cairn seems extremely currious. You did copy it correctly from the site but I can't begin to think of a reason why it would be doing significantly more than its benchmark dps. Mirage hitting 40k+ makes sense and I have seen it done since large hit box + boosted torment before it moves + decent number of confusion procs gives plenty of potential to actually beat the benchmark. For weaver though, I just can't see why it would be getting so much more damage on that fight, and would honestly suspect a bug with Ark.

[Feanor.2358]

Good catch. Not to mention 90th percentile is less than half this number, so obviously there's something off.

[Yasi.9065]

Afaik theres no version check on arcdps logs, and some arcdps versions were... very much in favour of certain builds. So you could run an outdated arcdps and getting inflated numbers.

 

Theres another, less conspirational solution to that mystery, however. The shorter a fight, the less mechanics, the more dps in arcdps log.

 

And ofc another thing is, the more players upload logs for lets say Mirage, the more logs are available to average that top 1% from. Also skewes the numbers slightly when comparing between professions.

 

Imo what gw2raidar is missing, is the possibility to look at the complete logs for top 1%, maybe even top 10%, anonymized for everybody not having an account with gw2raidar or choosing so in the options.

 

That way even Anets balance team could look at what exactly produces such high numbers ;)

 

Back to topic however:

I think Clone Mirage needs a fix, not because its highest dps on some bosses or even on testarena golem, but because it just doesnt feel intended. Clones are squishy, they are there to be shattered and not to be turned into better dps than illusions by a single trait. The whole concept of clones outdpsing illusions just rubs me wrong. Thats why I think the best solution would be to change the trait to... hold your breath... give your clones LESSER ambush skills, with reduced dps/utility. That way the ambush mechanic itself stays untouched for the Mirage, while reducing dps from clones.

[apharma.3741]

> @Yasi.9065 said:

> Afaik theres no version check on arcdps logs, and some arcdps versions were... very much in favour of certain builds. So you could run an outdated arcdps and getting inflated numbers.

>

> Theres another, less conspirational solution to that mystery, however. The shorter a fight, the less mechanics, the more dps in arcdps log.

>

> And ofc another thing is, the more players upload logs for lets say Mirage, the more logs are available to average that top 1% from. Also skewes the numbers slightly when comparing between professions.

>

> Imo what gw2raidar is missing, is the possibility to look at the complete logs for top 1%, maybe even top 10%, anonymized for everybody not having an account with gw2raidar or choosing so in the options.

>

> That way even Anets balance team could look at what exactly produces such high numbers ;)

>

> Back to topic however:

> I think Clone Mirage needs a fix, not because its highest dps on some bosses or even on testarena golem, but because it just doesnt feel intended. Clones are squishy, they are there to be shattered and not to be turned into better dps than illusions by a single trait. The whole concept of clones outdpsing illusions just rubs me wrong. Thats why I think the best solution would be to change the trait to... hold your breath... give your clones LESSER ambush skills, with reduced dps/utility. That way the ambush mechanic itself stays untouched for the Mirage, while reducing dps from clones.

 

The problem with phantasm builds is they’re target bound and most of the time single target but also have long cool downs without excessive traiting. They only get to max damage when 3 are out which usually takes some time at the start too (4-5s in cast times alone) which makes them really annoying to play. I do agree clones are there to be shattered but one of the better aspects of this build is just how easy it is to get those extra sources of damage which are also part of an attack that does damage too.

 

Funny thing is I’d personally remove phantasms as a mechanic from the game, they don’t work well and give the opponent far more control over your damage in PvP, are useless in WvW if high numbers but still fairly bad in small scale. In PvE they’re a hindrance to using the class mechanic shatters while mostly being single target and screwed over by a lot of mechanics which make the boss invuln or go away and that’s without mentioning fights with a few mini bosses. Phantasms also muddy the water for discussion as you yourself just demonstrated. Clones are shatter fodder, they do negligible damage outside condition builds, phantasms inherit stats from the mesmer (but don’t benefit from scholar/force etc) and so cause power damage however both come under the umbrella term illusions for trait purposes.

[Draco.9480]

> @Belorn.2659 said:

> No thanks! Variation is good.

>

> I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

>

> Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

 

epidemic is useless if necro is useless in term of dps. ya don't really need epidemic in raids to cleave.

[Draco.9480]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

 

pvp - not, wvw it's nice, pve - completely useless lowest dps in power and condi.

ya're don't play competitive pvp enough and understand the uniqueness of each class if ya think necro is op in pvp. only scourge is sort of ok cuz of boon corruption but if it gets focused then it's dead unlike others who can survive with focus fire survival skills or just disengage while necro doesn't have any of it. i'm in top 200 scourge in pvp and i 've to burn calories in order to win. so don't give me that "necro op in pvp and wvw"

[Draco.9480]

> @Belorn.2659 said:

> No thanks! Variation is good.

>

> I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

>

> Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

 

variation is still on the floor. all classes should be use for dps in power and condi. while we barely have like 5 good condis and 3 good power, everything else is just useless. necro offers 0 uniqueness in terms of pve

[zealex.9410]

> @ArthurDent.9538 said:

> > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > > on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

> > > >

> > > > Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

> > >

> > > We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

> > >

> > > The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

> >

> > Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

> >

> > VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531

> > Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922

> > Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866

> > Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149

> > Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520

> > KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853

> > Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687

> > Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646

> > Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435

> > Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340

> > Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

> >

> > Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

> >

> > If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

>

> That condi weaver dps on Cairn seems extremely currious. You did copy it correctly from the site but I can't begin to think of a reason why it would be doing significantly more than its benchmark dps. Mirage hitting 40k+ makes sense and I have seen it done since large hit box + boosted torment before it moves + decent number of confusion procs gives plenty of potential to actually beat the benchmark. For weaver though, I just can't see why it would be getting so much more damage on that fight, and would honestly suspect a bug with Ark.

 

Tl:dr there are some pretty bad mirages that use radar.

[zealex.9410]

> @Draco.9480 said:

> > @Belorn.2659 said:

> > No thanks! Variation is good.

> >

> > I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

> >

> > Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

>

> variation is still on the floor. all classes should be use for dps in power and condi. while we barely have like 5 good condis and 3 good power, everything else is just useless. necro offers 0 uniqueness in terms of pve

 

I mean epi can still cheese encounters so theres that.