Anchoku.8142 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 Thinking MH dagger should have 1 sec cripple on third AA and a 50% power dps buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > Sure, you can use dagger and spam kitten and have less effect than I will on Scepter. More risk for less reward sounds great! > > > > The issue that you keep ignoring is that right now, you get punished in longer fights for**EVER** swapping off of Scepter. Thus "swapping to gain life force" is a bad idea, no matter how necessary it seems. > > Which is exactly why it would be better to buff a trait than it would be to buff a weapon. Having to swap to get LF is just as bad as having to camp to gain LF. > > So which is it, you think we should or shouldn't be swapping weapons frequently? You've stated both in this very thread. "Buffing a trait" you have made clear to mean Nourishing Rot, which then means the other traits in the tier can't compete. This is the exact opposite of "making choices" and only makes the problem worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > Sure, you can use dagger and spam kitten and have less effect than I will on Scepter. More risk for less reward sounds great! > > > > > > The issue that you keep ignoring is that right now, you get punished in longer fights for**EVER** swapping off of Scepter. Thus "swapping to gain life force" is a bad idea, no matter how necessary it seems. > > > > Which is exactly why it would be better to buff a trait than it would be to buff a weapon. Having to swap to get LF is just as bad as having to camp to gain LF. > > > > > > So which is it, you think we should it shouldn't be swapping weapons frequently? You've stated both in this very thread. > > "Buffing a trait" you have made clear to mean Nourishing Rot, which then means the other traits in the tier can't compete. This is the exact opposite of "making choices" and only makes the problem worse. I don't get your question .... you can swap weapons as much as you want AND use the weapons you like if buffs occur on traits. Seems to me that offers quite a large amount of choice and interesting gameplay if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 16, 2017 Author Share Posted September 16, 2017 You should be swapping regardless for Geomancy. Camping anything is a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 If buffs occur on traits, now you've just moved the problem. Now Nourishing Rot is just always the correct choice. Doesn't matter what you're trying to do. Meanwhile, it's **still** always wrong in a condition build to do anything but camp Scepter. Moreso, actually, because there would be no incentive to even consider another weapon. And seriously? "offers a large amount of choice and interesting gameplay" when you've now excluded other traits as choices at all and removed the incentive to ever swap to a different weapon for more skills? Buffing Nourishing Rot to actually do something in PvE and to a point where Shade skills can be used frequently just makes the problems overall worse. > @Kam.4092 said: > You should be swapping regardless for Geomancy. Camping anything is a loss. While you should be using weapon swap, both weapon sets should be Scepter X right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 So besides the arguing, do you all think Bleeding is a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Bleeding is on-theme for the weapon, completes the kit, and contributes to DPS and only DPS (so no new things that the dagger can actually do). I think it's a great idea. Originally I didn't, but I've definitely come around after thinking it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I would like to have weapon traits that actually change the behavior of a weapon and the behavior of mechanics while holding that weapon, rather than having extra damage or reduced recharges. For example, Quickening Thirst gives movement speed while holding a dagger, and reduces recharges under 75% HP. Instead, I would prefer if it changed the dagger attacks so Necrotic Bite is always critical against enemies bleeding, and so the other dagger skills refreshed the duration of existing bleeding on enemies by a bit, like just 1 second. You could bring curses, and Barbed Precision would trigger at the end of the autoattack chain, and you could use the other dagger skills to keep the bleeding longer on the enemy. If Vampiric Presence was also changed to heal a bit more more against enemies who are bleeding, or a tiny bit more per stack of bleeding they have, Blood Magic and daggers could gain a little more support by letting you maintain bleeding on enemies more easily while healing allies a bit more against those enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 > @Kam.4092 said: > So besides the arguing, do you all think Bleeding is a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger? Yeah a single bleed stack added to the AA should be fine, and add internal synergy with the #2 skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 > @Kam.4092 said: > So besides the arguing, do you all think Bleeding is a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger? x2 bleeds (1s) on necrotic slash x1 bleed (3s) on necrotic stab x1 bleed (3s) on necrotic bite So at 100% duration that's about 8 bleed stacks which is about half of what a sceptre can gain by spamming auto attack (when traited). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Lahmia.2193 said: > > @Kam.4092 said: > > So besides the arguing, do you all think Bleeding is a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger? > > x2 bleeds (1s) on necrotic slash > x1 bleed (3s) on necrotic stab > x1 bleed (3s) on necrotic bite > So at 100% duration that's about 8 bleed stacks which is about half of what a sceptre can gain by spamming auto attack (when traited). I hope they do this. I'm hoping since the forums were updated, then more Devs read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadsoul.6951 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 I like the idea of main hand dagger become more of a hybrid weapon Staff at the moment is consider a hybrid weapon however it severely lacks damage, and its true strength comes from its utility. I'd consider at the moment dagger is a mostly a power weapon, it kinda try to be defensive but i think that comes from the threat of melee range. If dagger became a hybrid damage weapon i think it would have several benefits over staff becoming more powerful. *Follow through with recent changes *tying dagger closer to the blood magic trait line, *provide a melee range condition weapon *difference in range helps stifle competition in damage instead of making the staff the new go to condition weapon i suggest going with dagger. How I would do this add bleeding to auto attack, (if all hits(4 total) in the chain applied a 4second bleed this would still be less than scepter) reduce the recharge of dark pact to 18s and remove the boon corruption. (In PVP setting the dagger really needs this skill on a lower cd, In a pve setting it lines up the condition transfer combo nicely with with dagger offhand) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muchacho.2390 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Kam.4092 said: > So besides the arguing, do you all think Bleeding is a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger? Yes infact it is the only good one. All the other (currently existing) conditions dont suit the bloodmagic theme our daggers have. And knowing Anets love for theme, i think that it is the only condition they would consider adding to our mh dagger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. We are trying to solve three problems simulteaously. These problems being 1) Condi has serious LF generation issues 2) dagger has no purpose 3) condi is perpetually stuck running double scepter all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 Running double Scepter is boring, and will only be used on long fights, and if you have Quickness, etc. So in a Raid environment. With Dungeons, and Fractals having short fights, Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch will be great for spamming AoE and burning through fast fights. Also with Scourge being OP by default in Fractals, spamming Barriers will be fun with the massive AoE. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. > > That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. > > > > That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? > > Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable. Quit your lying. The initial suggestion was made alongside the issues it would fix. You just ignored them because you are against Dagger getting a place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. > > > > > > That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? > > > > Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable. > > Quit your lying. The initial suggestion was made alongside the issues it would fix. You just ignored them because you are against Dagger getting a place. It's not a lie ... there is a massive difference between stating a problem and finding a solution vs. proposing a change and suggesting all the things it's good for. Anyways, I think what's funny ... I"M the one lying ... but even Lily sees why this thread is doing it wrong. That's right ... you want to make it sound like I'm the only one that finds issue with the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. > > > > > > > > That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? > > > > > > Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable. > > > > Quit your lying. The initial suggestion was made alongside the issues it would fix. You just ignored them because you are against Dagger getting a place. > > It's not a lie ... there is a massive difference between stating a problem and finding a solution vs. proposing a change and suggesting all the things it's good for. Anyways, I think what's funny ... I"M the one lying ... but even Lily sees why this thread is doing it wrong. That's right ... you want to make it sound like I'm the only one that finds issue with the suggestion. How about go back in the thread and count the names of people for this change. Then you can count the people against it like you. Come back with your number total, and make a knowledgeable statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward **skilled use** of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward **skilled use** of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change. Mainhand Dagger is a toolset, so I'll be super skilled then I guess. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward **skilled use** of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change. Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use" Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class. newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > I think the latest PoF pre-release pretty much says it all. My favourite part is when Anet confirms that they make changes that reward **skilled use** of toolsets, something a condi buffed dagger doesn't do. THAT is worth remembering the next time someone suggests a change. > > Do you seriously think running scepter on both weapon sets is "skilled use" > > Having a reason to run something other than scepter would increase the complexity of the class. > > newsflash those changes where only because of WvW zerg combat, and scourge as a whole just got destroyed as far as PvE and sPvP are concerned. I'm just hoping it does ok DPS in PvE compared to Reaper :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > > From what I'm seeing here people are trying to solve a problem in the wrong way. The issue of life force on condi. It would be more consistent to give life force generation on off hand dagger and torch. > > > > > > > > That isn't to say I'm 100% opposed to the idea. Although I feel a blood magic trait that improves bleed damage and causes all dagger skills to cause bleeding on strike could be interesting. Keep the power aspect of dagger but give it the option to bleed by taking blood. Now you have a meaningful choice. Do you sacrifice a specialization for this dagger trait? Forcing a choice between curses, soul reaping and blood? Or ignore the dagger? > > > > > > Completely agree. The whole problem is that the starting point was the suggestion ... the issues that it would fix are listed after. This leads to a solution to a problem that is not optimal; it simply tries to justify the suggestion by appealing to a sense of addressing a current issue, making it likeable. > > > > Quit your lying. The initial suggestion was made alongside the issues it would fix. You just ignored them because you are against Dagger getting a place. > > It's not a lie ... there is a massive difference between stating a problem and finding a solution vs. proposing a change and suggesting all the things it's good for. Anyways, I think what's funny ... I"M the one lying ... but even Lily sees why this thread is doing it wrong. That's right ... you want to make it sound like I'm the only one that finds issue with the suggestion. The "problems" had been identified and stated years ago. This proposed change was made alongside a list of issues it sought to address. So yes, you are lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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