Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Maunzi.3764 said: > A simple scenario: > * [skill] costs 40% > * You gain 2 per second > > You need 20 seconds to use [skill] > > SUDDENLY! > * [skill] now costs 50% > * You still 2 every second, but also gain 3% per enemy hit (cooldown: 16 seconds, 12 seconds with Alacrity, which comes down to 3%/12 per second, for a total of 0,25% per second). This means your LF gain was buffed to 2.25% per seconds under ideal conditions. > > You now need 22,2 seconds to use [skill], even though your LF generation was buffed. > Despite the "buff", it is a clear and direct nerf overall. > > This simple scenario should allow even Obtena to understand the situation. > Here is a scenario ... I just got a whole bunch of conditions on my dagger to help me getting more LF than vanilla dagger gives me ... Oh ... :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > What is it that you think dagger offers besides damage? Why do you think anyone is wanting to use shade skills more often? > > The answers most people give are "nothing useful" and "damage." > > So, if swapping to dagger to use shade skills decreases your total damage, and dagger offers nothing else of value, why would you do it? Why would you bother trying to use the shade skills more often when the attempt puts you further from your goal? Must be a slow morning where you are: If the value of shades is so low that making this swap, even to the BEST LF regen weapon, makes no sense, then that's a problem that is addressed with SCOURGE-related toolset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > Here is a scenario ... I just got a whole bunch of conditions on my dagger to help me getting more LF than vanilla dagger gives me ... Oh ... :/ Answer: A choice. Extended answer: If the extended life force from switching to dagger (without condis on it) gets you less than not doing so, then switching to dagger is a bad idea and will not be done. The aim of slapping conditions to dagger is to make dagger a choice that is not strictly a bad one. I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Maunzi.3764 said: > A simple scenario: > * [skill] costs 40% > * You gain 2 per second > > You need 20 seconds to use [skill] > > SUDDENLY! > * [skill] now costs 50% > * You still 2 every second, but also gain 3% per enemy hit (cooldown: 16 seconds, 12 seconds with Alacrity, which comes down to 3%/12 per second, for a total of 0,25% per second). This means your LF gain was buffed to 2.25% per seconds under ideal conditions. This is not how the LF costs work...at all. Also no need to be disingenuous since its obvious you are on about desert shroud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Sigmoid.7082 said: > This is not how the LF costs work...at all. > Also no need to be disingenuous since its obvious you are on about desert shroud. That's right, it was desert shroud that I was talking about. And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids! Yes, it's simplified to make a point - torch 4 does not give 3% divided by 12, it gives 3% every 12 seconds, on top of traits modifying this, and the cost itself being affected by vitality and traits. Doesn't change the point though, since it's simplified for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Maunzi.3764 said: > I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. I'm not suggesting that LF regen doesn't get fixed on Scourge. It's nonsense to give the impression that the only path to having 'choice' is a condi buffed dagger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > What is it that you think dagger offers besides damage? Why do you think anyone is wanting to use shade skills more often? > > > > The answers most people give are "nothing useful" and "damage." > > > > So, if swapping to dagger to use shade skills decreases your total damage, and dagger offers nothing else of value, why would you do it? Why would you bother trying to use the shade skills more often when the attempt puts you further from your goal? > > Must be a slow morning where you are: > > If the value of kitten is so low that making this swap, even to the BEST LF regen weapon, makes no sense, then that's a problem that is addressed with SCOURGE-related toolset. The value of the life force is fine. The value of the methods of gaining it are not. Dagger mainhand is well known to be an underperforming weapon, even in Power builds. Why should effort be put into Scourge and every future elite spec to fix the life force issue, and then spend more effort bringing dagger up to par when all of it can be done with one change that also completes the dagger's kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > If "the best LF regen you can to use cats more often" lead to lower dps compared to camping scepter then yes, is "OVERALL less effective". > > > No, that happens ALL the time in this game. DPS is not the only factor that affects people's choices in weapons ... clearly. People use 'overall less effective' builds to gain advantages all the time. Yeah, ther're other factor like survivability tools as evades and blocks. But for PvE you wan't damage, se you pick the damaging weapon all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Vitali.5039 said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > If "the best LF regen you can to use cats more often" lead to lower dps compared to camping scepter then yes, is "OVERALL less effective". > > > > > No, that happens ALL the time in this game. DPS is not the only factor that affects people's choices in weapons ... clearly. People use 'overall less effective' builds to gain advantages all the time. > > Yeah, ther're other factor like survivability tools as evades and blocks. > But for PvE you wan't damage, se you pick the damaging weapon all the time. > OK so pick the build that gives you that ... what's the problem here? The problem here is that you want damage in a very specific way. That's not how this game works since day 1. If you JUST want the highest damage because PVE, then you logically take the highest damage build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. > > I'm not suggesting that LF regen doesn't get fixed on Scourge. It's nonsense to give the impression that the only path to having 'choice' is a condi buffed dagger. But adding condi to dagger fixes several other issues that aren't strictly related to scourge. In game design there is a concept known as "elegance of design" which emphasizes the importance of using simple solutions to fix complex game mechanics. Adding bleeding to dagger is a "elegant" fix in that it is a very simple solution to a whole list of mechanical problems. Adding bleeding to dagger does the following: 1) addresses the lack of scepter alternatives for condi builds. 2) fixes the inability of power dagger builds to meet the conditional damage modifier on dagger #2 3) makes Blood Bond's proc requirement achievable for power builds (which is important since Blood Bond is only desirable for power builds) 4) alleviates some of the power deficiencies that dagger has compared to other weaponsets. 5) gives condi scourge a viable off-weapon So tell me what is better design: trying to fix all of those problems independently, or applying a simple change that would fix all of those problems at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > What is it that you think dagger offers besides damage? Why do you think anyone is wanting to use shade skills more often? > > > > > > The answers most people give are "nothing useful" and "damage." > > > > > > So, if swapping to dagger to use shade skills decreases your total damage, and dagger offers nothing else of value, why would you do it? Why would you bother trying to use the shade skills more often when the attempt puts you further from your goal? > > > > Must be a slow morning where you are: > > > > If the value of kitten is so low that making this swap, even to the BEST LF regen weapon, makes no sense, then that's a problem that is addressed with SCOURGE-related toolset. > > The value of the life force is fine. The value of the methods of gaining it are not. Dagger mainhand is well known to be an underperforming weapon, even in Power builds. > > Why should effort be put into Scourge and every future elite spec to fix the life force issue, and then spend more effort bringing dagger up to par when all of it can be done with one change that also completes the dagger's kit? So a condi buff on a dagger, which doesn't doesn't fix a LF regen problem on Scourge is going to fix a LF regen problem on the future especs we don't even know about? That's a great bit of fiction right there. There are lots of better ways that can be imagined to bring dagger up to par AND address the LF regen problem on Scourge without resorting to adding condi to it. It's just a stubborn mind that decides that a condi buffed dagger is the ONLY and BEST way to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. > > > > I'm not suggesting that LF regen doesn't get fixed on Scourge. It's nonsense to give the impression that the only path to having 'choice' is a condi buffed dagger. > > But adding condi to dagger fixes several other issues that aren't strictly related to scourge. Correction, Adding condi to dagger fixes other issues that aren't related to Scourge at all. You see, it's very disingenuous for people to want a condi buff on dagger to fix LF regen issues on Scourge (which it doesn't do) and redirect the justification to do that because of other unrelated reasons. That makes no sense. You want a buff on dagger that will do absolutely nothing to fix a problem with LF regen on Scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > > What is it that you think dagger offers besides damage? Why do you think anyone is wanting to use shade skills more often? > > > > > > > > The answers most people give are "nothing useful" and "damage." > > > > > > > > So, if swapping to dagger to use shade skills decreases your total damage, and dagger offers nothing else of value, why would you do it? Why would you bother trying to use the shade skills more often when the attempt puts you further from your goal? > > > > > > Must be a slow morning where you are: > > > > > > If the value of kitten is so low that making this swap, even to the BEST LF regen weapon, makes no sense, then that's a problem that is addressed with SCOURGE-related toolset. > > > > The value of the life force is fine. The value of the methods of gaining it are not. Dagger mainhand is well known to be an underperforming weapon, even in Power builds. > > > > Why should effort be put into Scourge and every future elite spec to fix the life force issue, and then spend more effort bringing dagger up to par when all of it can be done with one change that also completes the dagger's kit? > > So a condi buff on a dagger, which doesn't doesn't fix a LF regen problem on Scourge is going to fix a LF regen problem on the future especs we don't even know about? That's a great bit of fiction right there. > > There are lots of better ways that can be imagined to bring dagger up to par AND address the LF regen problem on Scourge without resorting to adding condi to it. It's just a stubborn mind that decides that a condi buffed dagger is the ONLY and BEST way to do that. It's a stubborn mind that keeps harping on an argument nobody made. Adding bleeding to dagger was never claimed to improve its life force generation. Get that simple fact through your skull. What it does do is reduce the cost of using dagger to the point where it's an actual choice rather than "do I want to hamstring myself or not?" In that way, it then solves the life force issues of Scourge. Is buffing dagger in this way the _only_ solution? No, and nobody claimed it was. Is it the _best_ solution? Yes, because it also solves many more problems and is simpler than fixing any one of those problems individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 That's simply not true ... because if not for the LF, why do people want to use dagger on Scourge in the first place? It has NO synergy wtih Scourge at all, except for it's excellent LF regen properties. LF regen is the ONLY reason anyone would take a dagger on Scourge and even you admitted that you wouldn't camp it in the first place; it's purely there to accelerate LF regen. Let's keep it honest here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @Crinn.7864 said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. > > > > > > I'm not suggesting that LF regen doesn't get fixed on Scourge. It's nonsense to give the impression that the only path to having 'choice' is a condi buffed dagger. > > > > But adding condi to dagger fixes several other issues that aren't strictly related to scourge. > > Correction, Adding condi to dagger fixes other issues that aren't related to Scourge at all. You see, it's very disingenuous for people to want a condi buff on dagger to fix LF regen issues on Scourge (which it doesn't do) and redirect the justification to do that because of other unrelated reasons. That makes no sense. You want a buff on dagger that will do absolutely nothing to fix a problem with LF regen on Scourge. Except it does fix the issues with LF generation on scourge by giving scourge the ability to choose a weapon option that gives strong LF gain without neutering our damage in the process of getting that LF. Also those "unrelated reasons" are still valid reasons for giving dagger bleeds. Thiss thread is about getting bleeds put on dagger, the discussion is not exclusively limited to scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > That's simply not true ... because if not for the LF, why do people want to use dagger on Scourge in the first place? It has NO synergy wtih Scourge at all, except for it's excellent LF regen properties. LF regen is the ONLY reason anyone would take a dagger on Scourge and even you admitted that you wouldn't camp it in the first place; it's purely there to accelerate LF regen. Let's keep it honest here. It's quite true. It is for the life force generation that people want to use dagger on Scourge. Nobody claimed otherwise. But dagger is so bad as-is that all you manage to do is cripple yourself rather than gain any advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > @Crinn.7864 said: > > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > > I rather have a choice, personally. You may prefer not having one, so it's easier for you to decide what to use. > > > > > > > > I'm not suggesting that LF regen doesn't get fixed on Scourge. It's nonsense to give the impression that the only path to having 'choice' is a condi buffed dagger. > > > > > > But adding condi to dagger fixes several other issues that aren't strictly related to scourge. > > > > Correction, Adding condi to dagger fixes other issues that aren't related to Scourge at all. You see, it's very disingenuous for people to want a condi buff on dagger to fix LF regen issues on Scourge (which it doesn't do) and redirect the justification to do that because of other unrelated reasons. That makes no sense. You want a buff on dagger that will do absolutely nothing to fix a problem with LF regen on Scourge. > > Except it does fix the issues with LF generation on scourge by giving scourge the ability to choose a weapon option that gives strong LF gain without neutering our damage in the process of getting that LF. Having your damage 'neutered' is a completely different problem than LF regen, which is why you are making these thoughtful swaps to the dagger in the first place. Claiming we 'fix' LF regen on Scourge by buffing damage on dagger with a condition is utter nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > Having your damage 'neutered' is a completely different problem than LF regen, which is why you are making these thoughtful swaps to the dagger in the first place. Claiming we 'fix' LF regen on Scourge by buffing damage on dagger with a condition is utter nonsense. 1) The reason I want the LF is to spend the LF on F skills to increase my damage. 2) But if I have to kill my damage in order to gain the damage from F skills then I have gained nothing. 3) But if Dagger is buffed to where it doesn't kill my damage, then I might gain some damage from it's LF gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 So, I think I have figured out why Obtena just doesn't get it: he doesn't understand that the resource itself is meaningless. Nobody ever cares about a resource. It doesn't matter what kind of resource you are talking about, or if it's in a game or reality. What people **do** care about is what the resource can get you. In the case of Scourge in PvE, it's damage. However, right now, Scourge gains more damage by ignoring the life force. Again, nobody cares about life force itself, they care about what it gets you. When you achieve your goal better by ignoring the resource altogether, then why bother gathering the resource? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 > @Obtena.7952 said: > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > @Obtena.7952 said: > > > > @Vitali.5039 said: > > > > If "the best LF regen you can to use cats more often" lead to lower dps compared to camping scepter then yes, is "OVERALL less effective". > > > > > > > No, that happens ALL the time in this game. DPS is not the only factor that affects people's choices in weapons ... clearly. People use 'overall less effective' builds to gain advantages all the time. > > > > Yeah, ther're other factor like survivability tools as evades and blocks. > > But for PvE you wan't damage, se you pick the damaging weapon all the time. > > > > OK so pick the build that gives you that ... what's the problem here? The problem here is that you want damage in a very specific way. That's not how this game works since day 1. If you JUST want the highest damage because PVE, then you logically take the highest damage build. Thing is that your best damaging opinion don't have good results, so even if we JUST pick the most damaging opinion our performances will be lacking. Can you call that balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesa.4819 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 It is really annoying when some people just derail every single thread they enter with nonesense argumenting without any logic or reason, it's probably better to just ignore such people and continue on with the topic, rather than wasting 80% of the thread space arguing with a rock. It's a shame they removed the downvote button, makes it easier to express disagreements rather than having to type the same thing for several pages without end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 We probably should stop expecting a Guardian main to understand the core of resource management. Especially when he doesn't do anything high-end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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