Scourge makes Reaper redundant

[Emapudapus.1307]

 

> @Crinn.7864 said:

>

> Tell me then what you would have the reaper doing?

>

> I cannot teamfight if the other team fields a Scourge. This leaves 2 roles, the +1 roamer, or offnode 1v1. I cannot be the +1 guy because reasons, and I am too vulnerable to thief +1s to be the offnode guy, not to mention I lose all 1v1 matchups against all common offnode classes. (Mirage, Druid, Rifle Holosmith)

>

> And if you are planning on putting both a Scourge and me Reaper into a teamfight together, you would just be better off with 2 scourges.

>

 

Fixed, answers your problems.

[ilmau.9781]

oh comon guys, quit the complains already and take in mind that when you die, when you get farmed, when you are stuck waiting some good soul to pick you up, when you do not have fun, or even when you turn off gw2 to play something else, you can turn it on again, get to trading post, charge in some $$ and buy a new shiny mounth skin!!!!! so really, i do not understand why you all complains so much. Maybe beacouse skins are few? well just be patient a lil more i am sure we got more coming :)

[silent killer.5732]

I don't know if im going to add anything helpful here because i have been out for while . But i did agree with the scourge replacing the reaper but if you need to hit direct hits you will never do enough damage with the scourge

You always need the reaper for power

 

To me I recently tried the latest balance changes on reaper and I find it pretty ugly . The percentage of the reapers shroud drains is just way too much so i think this change was the last nail on the reapers coffin. I can't play reaper anymore and i kinda lost my interest in that game because of it

 

They should remove the cd on entering the shroud if they want to keep the drain at this quick.

 

Now its all about scourge there is no reaper anymore

[Lalainnia.3598]

Just wanted to poke fun and say scourge actually does bring utility compared to reaper so ya its just a all around better reaper

[Crinn.7864]

> @Emapudapus.1307 said:

> Fixed, answers your problems.

 

Putting words into someone's mouth does not make you witty. Everything in my original quote is correct. Just because you can take reaper and farm plebeians in unranked does not make a viable spec.

 

[Svarty.8019]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> Scourge is just upgraded Reaper.

 

Scourge is up-up-and-awaygraded Reaper in terms of power, but the playstyle is boring circle-spamming nonsense. The Reaper was actually FUN.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, the development team has always trodden on fun things in GW2. From Banner-rezzing lords to between-ticks waypoint access to hiding mesmers to fun Reaper playstyle. Everything got ruined.

 

[trueanimus.4085]

the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @trueanimus.4085 said:

> the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

 

Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

[Rudra.6932]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> Scourge fills the exact same role that reaper does, except scourge does it better, and this is true for every game mode.

 

This statement is absolutely true (atleast for PvP and WvW). When Path of Fire released, I was more than delighted to play with a class with near god like abilities. Even after the Halloween patch that addressed the shade bugs, it is still more broken than the pre-nerf deathly chill procmancer. The difference is procmancer had a high risk high reward playstyle. The largest chuck of damage came from the going into Shroud proc effects and most good players would dodge the shroud proc and kite the reaper while he/she is in shroud form and then re engage after they had left shroud. It needed intelligent gameplay and not the constant button spam fiesta that scourge is.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing scourge immensely after Path of Fire release but being OP doesn't equate to having fun for long. The simplistic button mashing nature of it's gameplay is uninteresting and soon the whole idea of solo/duo Roaming as Scourge in WvW became stale to me.

 

I tried going back to procmancer again but it is so horribly underpowered compared to scourge now after the deathly chill nerf (a well deserved nerf, don't get me wrong) that facing a scourge in WvW as a procmancer is almost a joke. Power Reaper on the other hand received some significant damage buffs and I can do pretty well against most classes except Spellbreaker and Scourge. Taking down a scourge in a 1v1 is a challenge for a Power Reaper even when I can tell that the scourges I am facing have lower skill level than mine just by looking at how they move and how much skills they spam.

 

I believe that Scourge definitely needs to be toned down in WvW and PvP only (leave PvE alone or even buff it there) and it should be given some interesting plays to make instead of dropping shades and pressing F skills and watch stuff die. I am not biased against Scourge or anything, I purely play Necromancer and I want my class to be fun and engaging which is why I have gone back to playing Reaper.

 

Additionally, I would vote for shroud degen to be reduced atleast in PvP and WvW. No one worth their salt would ever camp Shroud in WvW and PvP because of the bonus a Reaper gets while entering shroud in both Spite and Curses trees. However, at present situation, it depletes way too much by the time anything meaningful is done while in shroud and because of how hard it can be to get Life force back mid fight, going back into shroud gets harder and harder as the fight goes on. Either that or life force gain for ONLY Reaper should gain a boost (which is more appealing to me as a gameplay feature).

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

>

> Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

>

> You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

>

> Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

>

 

Scourge is a significant departure from the gameplay you get from Reaper or Core Necro, even if all three of those things have a similar role. Don't get me wrong, maybe all the specs do the same thing but Anet never said elite specs will have different roles ... just a different way to do things. Reaper is certainly a different beast in terms of gameplay than Scourge is; anyone would have to question the experience of someone who says otherwise.

 

You can TOTALLY have two elites of the same class performing the same role, as long as they do it differently ... and you better get used to it too, because this game isn't complex enough in mechanics to support a large number of elite specs, each having a unique role. Anet never promised unique ROLES for each elite spec, only different ways to fill the roles that exist ... and there aren't many 'roles' in this game to fill to begin with

 

Seems to me, you are associating HOW the specs play with WHAT they do. The WHAT can all be the same, but the HOW very different.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > Maybe the OP is true, but that's not the point of elite specs anyways so it's not really relevant to begin with. I'm assuming you are making this point to illustrate the need for making some changes? Not a good tack. Elite specs aren't about doing something better than something else. They are about a different flavour of play; I would say the flavour you get from Scourge couldn't be any different than what you get from Reaper. The elite spec performance comparison angle simply isn't compelling to justify changes to them.

> >

> > Scourge does not offer "a different flavor of play" Scourge is just upgraded Reaper. Scourge does not open up any new roles to us, or any new gameplay. We are still a teamfigher boonhate selfish DPS class, just as we where before.

> >

> > You cannot have two elites of the same class performing the same role. Why? Because anytime you have two different methods to the same goal, one of the those methods is invariably better. And this is what has happened with Scourge. Scourge has completely replaced Reaper in all modes, because Scourge is flat better than reaper.

> >

> > Scourge needs to be changed to exclusive support, Reaper should be the damage dealer, since Reaper was exclusively designed as a Damage Dealer.

> >

>

> Scourge is a significant departure from the gameplay you get from Reaper or Core Necro, even if all three of those things have a similar role. Don't get me wrong, maybe all the specs do the same thing but Anet never said elite specs will have different roles ... just a different way to do things. Reaper is certainly a different beast in terms of gameplay than Scourge is; anyone would have to question the experience of someone who says otherwise.

>

> You can TOTALLY have two elites of the same class performing the same role, as long as they do it differently ... and you better get used to it too, because this game isn't complex enough in mechanics to support a large number of elite specs, each having a unique role. Anet never promised unique ROLES for each elite spec, only different ways to fill the roles that exist ... and there aren't many 'roles' in this game to fill to begin with

>

> Seems to me, you are associating HOW the specs play with WHAT they do. The WHAT can all be the same, but the HOW very different.

 

You still haven't explained to me why having Scourge be 100% better than reaper at everything is ok.

 

Having a design philosophy of "two paths to the same goal" doesn't work if one of those paths is a 6-lane interstate and the other is a dirt track.

 

[Obtena.7952]

Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

[TheDevice.2751]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

 

So if scourge had 300k health and they shot a super condition unique aoe that literally said "kills every foe. unblockable. You can't be stopped while casting this." Essentially they are both great for teamfights, reaper and scourge. Scourge just doesn't differently right?

 

Basically all I read from you was

 

"Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about **balance**. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up **(the made-up expectation being balanced)**, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that. **Scourge just does that same thing better**"

 

You can have to classes that do the same thing in different ways... and still be balanced. What you're saying isn't.. um.. idk. Maybe you also don't believe the game should be balanced. The expectation of balance isn't one Crinn made up btw. Its an expectation of most gamers in any game ever.

 

**BTW** Nobody is arguing that the Elites need to be different role-wise. Nobody is arguing against the design philosophy of "flavor". Whatever their design is, it should still be balanced. So the simplest explanation is that you're creating whats called a straw man argument by claiming Crinn is against their design philosophy or isn't in agreement with that design philosophy when the design philosophy has nothing to do with his argument. His argument is about balance.

 

[Crinn.7864]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

 

Which may be all well and good in PvE. In PvP and WvW you actually have to fight against other builds, and with scourge filling reaper's role while also being a direct upgrade over reaper means that any team running a reaper is going to be heavily disadvantaged to a team using a scourge.

 

Any game that includes PvP needs to either have all classes within a role perform equally, and if the game cannot do that, then it should not have multiple classes filling the same role.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > Anet's goal for elite specs isn't about equivalent performance,. So the simplest explanation is that your expectation for the class is one you made up, not one aligned with what Anet's goal is. Elite specs are about flavour. Lucky for us, that isn't Anet's design philosophy. You're creating that to make an argument for change. It's as simple as Anet told us it was; Elite specs are about playing the class in a different way. Reaper, Scourge ... they do that.

>

> Which may be all well and good in PvE. In PvP and WvW you actually have to fight against other builds, and with scourge filling reaper's role while also being a direct upgrade over reaper means that any team running a reaper is going to be heavily disadvantaged to a team using a scourge.

>

> Any game that includes PvP needs to either have all classes within a role perform equally, and if the game cannot do that, then it should not have multiple classes filling the same role.

>

 

The answer to that is simple ... you get to choose what builds you want to use to fight other builds. If you don't think reaper is good for that, don't use it. Furthermore, we aren't talking about balance between classes, we are talking about balance within builds of a class. Elite specs are not new classes, so the idea that they need to perform equally within a role because of PVP is a massive stretch ... a joke even.

 

> @TheDevice.2751 said:

>

> **BTW** Nobody is arguing that the Elites need to be different role-wise. Nobody is arguing against the design philosophy of "flavor". Whatever their design is, it should still be balanced. So the simplest explanation is that you're creating whats called a straw man argument by claiming Crinn is against their design philosophy or isn't in agreement with that design philosophy when the design philosophy has nothing to do with his argument. His argument is about balance.

>

See, that's the problem. When has this game EVER given you the impression that it's goal is to have balance between different builds for a class? I've never seen such a thing ... Why would the OP or anyone else assume that given absolutely NO expectation from Anet that they attempt to make 'balance' as players view it ... it should exist? There is no strawman here. You expect something that Anet has never set the expectation for or demonstrated a hint of attempting. If anything, the game sets the OPPOSITE expectation; there is no attempt to make equivalent performance between different builds in a class; there is a very small subset of very high performance builds. it's the META approach.

 

I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game; it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

[TheDevice.2751]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

 

> I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game;

 

>it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

 

5 years in and has consistently failed miserably with audiences. Failed with esports. Failed with streamers. Though, what you're saying, is if you openly asked ANET to respond to a post asking if their entire structure of pvp is based completely on pre-determiend meta builds (by them) and not by balance; they would agree?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > @trueanimus.4085 said:

> > the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

>

> Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

 

Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that _desert shroud_ is totally overpowered in this state.

 

ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

 

What I'd do:

- Core: Make DS into an utility kit with _dark path_ ground targeted and _life transfert_ generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.

_This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills_

 

- Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.

_The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker._

 

- Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. _Sand savant_ make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. _Demonic lore_ improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of _desert shroud_ proc F1. _Desert empowerment_ now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for _unending corruption_)

_This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills._

[ilmau.9781]

Even if i do not like the idea to drop the shroud as a second life bar (necro have no other defense than that) i truly belive that your idea is better that what we got now.

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

I, too, am hoping for some fundamental changes to core and Reaper now that the success of Scourge proves even a dumb, lazy, PvE player like me can fumble my way through Scourge.

 

Reaper can turn into an excellent power build just by increasing short/medium range control effects or soft CC like chill and adding group buff option like GotL; perhaps add an AoE ferocity buff.

 

Core Necromancer can be improved through use of multipliers in core trait lines that improve minions, by improving Dark Path, and by updating the original weapons for more punch. In particular, putrid mark's old nerf could be partly reversed while dagger and the old off-hands could be buffed.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @ilmau.9781 said:

> Even if i do not like the idea to drop the shroud as a second life bar (necro have no other defense than that) i truly belive that your idea is better that what we got now.

>

>

 

Honnestly, it's not that I want the shroud to change but more that I grew tired of how much this mechanism hold back himself and end up being difficult to balance. The issue have always been the defensive aspect of the shroud, the necromancer very defense and designed especially as an HP sponge to be able to cope with the wanabee condition manager role.

 

I can understand the devs fearing a profession that can theoretically freely deal damage or support it's allies while defending, the concept of the mechanism is theoretically op. However, history prove that the only real issue that the mechanism created in the game was a defensive issue. In the core era the shroud was so bad as a defensive mechanism that the necromancer could barely defend themselve in PvE, most dungeon boss could kill a necromancer throught it's shroud without breaking a sweat. Obviously there have been countless adjustement but they never reach a balanced state between the shroud defense in PvE and in PvP. That is until HoT where we could say that the defensive side of the reaper shroud was barely balanced in the game as a whole. When scourge came, anet just destroyed this precarious balance...

 

It's a pain to say it but man... 3 whole years spent to balance a mechanisms that had finally found a balanced state for 1 of it's 2 form in regard of defense and... 2 year later they screw it all... Here they earned my bigest facepalm. What's worse is that in the last 5 years, never ever the shroud skills (offensive or support) were in a state were they could shine because their was this oppressive defensive potential that is the "2nd Health pool".

 

With the avent of the scourge came the barriers which is potentially way easier to balance than the shroud will ever be. It feel like a godsend yet anet didn't go all the way to resolve the lingering issue. When I see how they manage the community it feel like they are showing a really tasty candy in front of us, showing that they can resolve the balance issues but just smile and don't do it on purpose. Maybe they've some kind of lingering attachement to the rotting mechanism tht the shroud is, maybe they are still overestimating it and refuse to really touch it until we found this so called op state when we will have mastered the shroud... For me it just feel like they don't want to accept their own failure/mistake.

 

Now, I sure wrote some juicy easy fix to the mechanism, however, I'm pretty sure that the main priority of anet's devs for the necromancer is to try to fix the scourge and that with the way they balance thing it will take the years without ever questioning their choices and changing the right things on the scourge. There is a need to make sure that all scourge shroud skills can be countered and I'm pretty sure the game will have countless bandaid that will never fix this before they seem to realise it and say: "fuck it! We are already working on the next e-spec, it won't be important after that!". Result: nothing will move in the right direction.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > @trueanimus.4085 said:

> > > the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

> >

> > Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

>

> Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that _desert shroud_ is totally overpowered in this state.

>

> ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

>

> What I'd do:

> - Core: Make DS into an utility kit with _dark path_ ground targeted and _life transfert_ generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.

> _This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills_

>

> - Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.

> _The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker._

>

> - Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. _Sand savant_ make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. _Demonic lore_ improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of _desert shroud_ proc F1. _Desert empowerment_ now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for _unending corruption_)

> _This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills._

 

That would also work.

[Teratus.2859]

I don't use Reaper for any of those things.. when it comes to the builds I like to use Reaper is still far more useful than Scourge.

 

In fact I prefer both Reaper and default Necromancer over Scourge..

I was previously excited for Scourge but after getting my hands on it I don't like it.. I'll take Death Shroud any day over the Shade skills.

[Avigrus.2871]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > @trueanimus.4085 said:

> > > the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

> >

> > Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

>

> Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that _desert shroud_ is totally overpowered in this state.

>

> ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

>

> What I'd do:

> - Core: Make DS into an utility kit with _dark path_ ground targeted and _life transfert_ generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.

> _This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills_

>

> - Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.

> _The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker._

>

> - Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. _Sand savant_ make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. _Demonic lore_ improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of _desert shroud_ proc F1. _Desert empowerment_ now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for _unending corruption_)

> _This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills._

 

This sounds like it might actually work with some testing and fine tuning.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Avigrus.2871 said:

> > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > > @trueanimus.4085 said:

> > > > the problem lies in the fact that with scourge you always have shroud power... while reaper drains shroud completely after only about 4 spells.. you cant even get a solid second rotation as reaper anymore.. thats if you make it past the first.. They are doing this to force people into the new spec.. which is really sad.

> > >

> > > Anet needs to adopt the Scourge setup for core necro and reaper. Remove the 2nd health bar and convert life force to an energy source then add the old shroud skills as F skills removing the 5th and replacing with a new shroud effect skill (but said 5th skill can be designed around the old 5 skill). Then balance necro around this, opening up our profession to some of the stuff we have lacked because of the "2nd health bar". Big job but it has happened in the past in gw1 with dervish.

> >

> > Rather than that, make DS and RS act like a kit with a LF degen and completely remove the 2nd health bar. I don't think the scourge setup like he is right now is healthy for the game, other professions are right about one thing, the scourge shroud skill really lack counterplay in how they work. I'd even say that _desert shroud_ is totally overpowered in this state.

> >

> > ATM, there seem to be so much work to balance scourge that it rival the work needed to balance the shroud...

> >

> > What I'd do:

> > - Core: Make DS into an utility kit with _dark path_ ground targeted and _life transfert_ generating barrier on each tic. No longer any 2nd life bar, don't lock you out of utilities, Spectral skills generate barrier instead of life force. 3% LF degen/second.

> > _This make for a dull shroud that is interesting yet not dominant. Defense come naturally through utility skills_

> >

> > - Reaper: Make RS into a power kit, no change from the current except that there is no longer a 2nd health bar nor does it lock you out of utilities. Shout trait grant barrier per foe stuck instead of draining life. 5% LF degen/second.

> > _The idea is really to go all the way into this idea of full dps necromantic berserker._

> >

> > - Scourge: Remove the "shade". Make F1 a skill that you can spam for an effect with the scourge at the center. Give a short cast time and after cast to F2-F3-F4. F5 become a channeled skill and is interruptible when a Hard CC is successfull on him. _Sand savant_ make skill F1 to F4 ground targeted, effects happen to the scourge position and the ground targeted position, effect do not stacks. _Demonic lore_ improve torment damage but no longer apply burn, instead, each tic of _desert shroud_ proc F1. _Desert empowerment_ now make skills that use life force also apply barrier. (same change for _unending corruption_)

> > _This keep the idea of the support spec, allow a true option for a genuine dps line and more than anything it allow counterplay on shroud skills._

>

> This sounds like it might actually work with some testing and fine tuning.

 

That's the goal ;) . Still, this might make trait that strengthen you while in shroud a bit weak for scourge (in PvP). Getting used to the new way to mitigate damage might as well be quite the assle. Thought, the real wall ahead of those change would still be that they make the necromancer a bit "weaker" against conditions and that would challenge the strong will of anet to make their condi manager necromancer wet dream true.

[Obtena.7952]

> @TheDevice.2751 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

>

> > I always see all these arguments for balance ... in a game that is designed around META builds. That makes no sense. You get A build, maybe TWO if you are lucky. Sometimes you get none. That's how the game works. The value in trying to make it something it isn't is zero ... we KNOW what to expect from this game;

>

> >it's 5 years in and consistent with the way classes interact with each other and the game. Anyone concerned about 'balance' between builds in a class is delusional.

>

> 5 years in and has consistently failed miserably with audiences. Failed with esports. Failed with streamers. Though, what you're saying, is if you openly asked ANET to respond to a post asking if their entire structure of pvp is based completely on pre-determiend meta builds (by them) and not by balance; they would agree?

 

I don't get what you are asking me. It's clear that Anet is not going to pull a 180 and start giving us a many balanced builds for whatever game mode they can and that's not just because 'they suck'. It's pre-determined by how the game mechanics work ... meta builds are the result of those mechanics. You can't 'balance' away this design philosophy. I have no doubt that it would be _technically _easy for Anet to make some number changes and make reaper the preferred build over Scourge. That's not even the relevant question. With some work they might even be able to make the performances similar enough to make people happy. They question is why they would bother when the whole game design would ruin that effort every time the game changed or the meta shifted? It's a waste of time for Anet to chase these changes.