If you're going to add more raids, fix elitism first

[Ashen.2907]

Someone claiming to know the thoughts of the majority of the game's player base...and who feels that they can speak for that majority...

 

 

Must be a day ending in a Y.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

>

> If you cut out the possibility of failure you're not playing challenging group content anymore.

 

Again, the challenge should be in *how* you succeed, not *whether* you succeed. The challenge should be in clearing the content fast, rather than in being able to clear it at all.

 

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> I agree with @"Coulter.2315" The point of raid content, from the introduction, was meant to be some of the most challenging content the game had to offer. Why should it be made easier for more people to experience? And to @"Ohoni.6057" , bad players should definitely cause the raid to fail. What you're describing is a damage sponge with no devastating attacks, patterns or strategy. The type of content it sounds like you want in raids is like the starting zone world bosses -- can't really lose to them but not knowing how to play can slow their destruction down.

 

So you agree with my premise.

 

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > The elitism in this game far exceeds other games like wow (probably because the player base is smaller and there is less options for raiding groups.) And yet the raids in gw2 are trivial compared to some of the raid content in that game. So i feel like Anet should compromise on something as this community seems to have a very high unnecessary concentration of elitism.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm gonna reuse the 4 category thingy that was mentioned earlier.

> > > > >

> > > > > Funnily, I believe that if indeed the elitism in gw2 exceeds the one in wow (I would still need proof of that, because as a regular raider myself, I don't see many people being "toxic" in raids. They simply tell you no if you don't have the experience and get upset if people lie about it) it's mostly due to the core game being very, very casual. So the playerbase is also very, very casual and also very demanding when it comes to accomodate every aspect of the game for them (anti dps meter threads, eater of souls nerf threads, clocktower threads)... so obviously, the last remaining bit of challenging content is constantly being blamed for ruining their experience, since that's one of the last things that hasn't been twisted for them (yet).

> > > > >

> > > > > Is it the raiding community being too elitist, or is it the playerbase being too casual? The answer will vary depending which side you're on. The only thing I can say is just given the past few months, pretty much all the threads were about making the game easier, and not harder, and I see this thread as one hidden way to nerf raids.

> > > > >

> > > > > There's a discord group apparently dedicated to raid trainings. I don't know its address, but I suggest people who are in the "wanabee" category to look with training raids if they can get some experience. And for the "whiner" category, sadly I have to say: This content isn't meant for you.

> > > >

> > > > Incorrect, the content is easily within my means and easily doable in general. What isn't meant for me is the community specific to gw2 that does raids, and to that end, Anet's unwillingness to adapt any sort of fix or compromise to raid content that would circumnavigate or minimize said communities overly selective/elitest behavior.

> > >

> > > Anet doesn't need to adapt, you do. People have told you how to construct non-elitist groups. I think the problem is you don't want to play with non-elitists, you want to force elitists to play with you. You want all the benefits of elitsm (fast clears, efficiency, no stress, no failure) but you don't meet that standard, so are kicked.

> > >

> > > People have the right to construct their own groups in any way they want and you do not have the right to demand people play with you. Make your own groups, create a guild to keep in touch with players you like, soon you'll be choosing who you play with just like those evil elitists you dislike.

> >

> > I easily meet the standards of an elite group, but i refuse to jump through the psychological hoops that are required to convince said people (the psychological threshold of convincing them specifically in gw2 is too high). This is why creating alternative raids that are easier or simply adding auto grouping which results in less group scrutiny is essential.

> >

> > Instead we only have one type of raid and it goes one speed only and every group member is manually added in and scrutinized. If there were easier raids available or easier ways of getting into a group, I could join them with little to no effort, and my skill level would shine through, without me having to psychologically convince others before they allow me to display my skill (its sad that people think that playing the psychological convincing game to get people to invite you to a raid is part of the "raiding experience/content") .

> >

> > Subsequently, I would get invited to the more elite groups based on my performance. This is what has happened for me in every other mmo I have played over the past 15 years, as they all usually offer alternative raid difficulties or auto grouping and I don't have to play psychological charades to convince people that I am a good player, which that is a given constant for me, regardless of what type of player you feel I might be.

> >

> > Additionally, suggesting that I form a raid guild of my own proves my point. The threshold for getting into raids is way to high if I need to form an entire guild myself and recruit/scrutinize other players, simply to do simple raid content. The amount of effort in forming a guild in comparison to the rewards and difficulty of the raids themselves is egregious and suggesting that every player getting into raiding should be doing this is silly. The point of the thread is to make the barrier of getting into raiding easier, not harder.

>

> A guild is not a high threshold, it is literally a list of names to collect and whisper when you want people to group with.

>

> "I easily meet the standards of an elite group" "my skill level would shine through" "convince people that I am a good player, which that is a given constant for me"

> Maybe when you say things like this it turns people off? Might not be elitism at all which stops you getting in, just they don't like your attitude.

 

sorry you don't like my "attitude" but again me being good is a true variable for me, and yet im having to psychologically convince you that I'm good, thus proving my point about group psychology, as I am engaging in the exact behavior that I don't want to have to engage in, in order to get into a good raiding group. If you saw me play, you would simply say "wow he's good" no conversation necessary, sorry if you don't like that I proclaim that I am good, or that it bothers you for some reason, or that you don't believe me, or that you don't like it that i pretend to be cordial, and humble when those are traits that most elitists don't value anyways.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > The elitism in this game far exceeds other games like wow (probably because the player base is smaller and there is less options for raiding groups.) And yet the raids in gw2 are trivial compared to some of the raid content in that game. So i feel like Anet should compromise on something as this community seems to have a very high unnecessary concentration of elitism.

> >

> > I'm gonna reuse the 4 category thingy that was mentioned earlier.

> >

> > Funnily, I believe that if indeed the elitism in gw2 exceeds the one in wow (I would still need proof of that, because as a regular raider myself, I don't see many people being "toxic" in raids. They simply tell you no if you don't have the experience and get upset if people lie about it) it's mostly due to the core game being very, very casual. So the playerbase is also very, very casual and also very demanding when it comes to accomodate every aspect of the game for them (anti dps meter threads, eater of souls nerf threads, clocktower threads)... so obviously, the last remaining bit of challenging content is constantly being blamed for ruining their experience, since that's one of the last things that hasn't been twisted for them (yet).

> >

> > Is it the raiding community being too elitist, or is it the playerbase being too casual? The answer will vary depending which side you're on. The only thing I can say is just given the past few months, pretty much all the threads were about making the game easier, and not harder, and I see this thread as one hidden way to nerf raids.

> >

> > There's a discord group apparently dedicated to raid trainings. I don't know its address, but I suggest people who are in the "wanabee" category to look with training raids if they can get some experience. And for the "whiner" category, sadly I have to say: This content isn't meant for you.

>

> Incorrect, the content is easily within my means and easily doable in general. What isn't meant for me is the community specific to gw2 that does raids, and to that end, Anet's unwillingness to adapt any sort of fix or compromise to raid content that would circumnavigate or minimize said communities overly selective/elitest behavior.

>

> I do agree with you that the player base in gw2 is casual and so the dichotomy between elite raid groups and the average gw2 player creates a sizeable rift. That's why I feel a-net should step in and add options or a difficulty alternative for raiding that caters to the core majority of gw2 players.

 

I don't exactly see how anything I said after your "incorrect" answer to my comment in general, how is it incorrect?

I'll say it again, I do not see that "elitist" behavior you're talking about. If "elitism" is simply wanting your group to run meta builds... well that isn't specific to GW2. When you're in a pug group with people you don't know meta builds are a way to make sure that when you see a class, you know what role they will play, you don't waste hours checking gear, talking about tactics etc. It perfectly makes sense.

Given the attitude I'm seeing here, you seem like one of the people who expect groups to be made for your specific philosophy of gaming. That's fine, but what prevents you from making your own raid group with your own rules?

 

I consider people lying about their skills to join experienced groups to be much more toxic to the community that experienced groups who simply want to hire people with the same level of experience for the job.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

> >

> > If you cut out the possibility of failure you're not playing challenging group content anymore.

>

> Again, the challenge should be in *how* you succeed, not *whether* you succeed. The challenge should be in clearing the content fast, rather than in being able to clear it at all.

What is the justification behind that definition of what raids should be, and how do you know that it's what the raiding community wants?

From what I know, the raiding community was pretty satisfied with raids as they are right now (except maybe w4 being too easy)

 

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > The elitism in this game far exceeds other games like wow (probably because the player base is smaller and there is less options for raiding groups.) And yet the raids in gw2 are trivial compared to some of the raid content in that game. So i feel like Anet should compromise on something as this community seems to have a very high unnecessary concentration of elitism.

> > >

> > > I'm gonna reuse the 4 category thingy that was mentioned earlier.

> > >

> > > Funnily, I believe that if indeed the elitism in gw2 exceeds the one in wow (I would still need proof of that, because as a regular raider myself, I don't see many people being "toxic" in raids. They simply tell you no if you don't have the experience and get upset if people lie about it) it's mostly due to the core game being very, very casual. So the playerbase is also very, very casual and also very demanding when it comes to accomodate every aspect of the game for them (anti dps meter threads, eater of souls nerf threads, clocktower threads)... so obviously, the last remaining bit of challenging content is constantly being blamed for ruining their experience, since that's one of the last things that hasn't been twisted for them (yet).

> > >

> > > Is it the raiding community being too elitist, or is it the playerbase being too casual? The answer will vary depending which side you're on. The only thing I can say is just given the past few months, pretty much all the threads were about making the game easier, and not harder, and I see this thread as one hidden way to nerf raids.

> > >

> > > There's a discord group apparently dedicated to raid trainings. I don't know its address, but I suggest people who are in the "wanabee" category to look with training raids if they can get some experience. And for the "whiner" category, sadly I have to say: This content isn't meant for you.

> >

> > Incorrect, the content is easily within my means and easily doable in general. What isn't meant for me is the community specific to gw2 that does raids, and to that end, Anet's unwillingness to adapt any sort of fix or compromise to raid content that would circumnavigate or minimize said communities overly selective/elitest behavior.

> >

> > I do agree with you that the player base in gw2 is casual and so the dichotomy between elite raid groups and the average gw2 player creates a sizeable rift. That's why I feel a-net should step in and add options or a difficulty alternative for raiding that caters to the core majority of gw2 players.

>

> I don't exactly see how anything I said after your "incorrect" answer to my comment in general, how is it incorrect?

> I'll say it again, I do not see that "elitist" behavior you're talking about. If "elitism" is simply wanting your group to run meta builds... well that isn't specific to GW2. When you're in a pug group with people you don't know meta builds are a way to make sure that when you see a class, you know what role they will play, you don't waste hours checking gear, talking about tactics etc. It perfectly makes sense.

> Given the attitude I'm seeing here, you seem like one of the people who expect groups to be made for your specific philosophy of gaming. That's fine, but what prevents you from making your own raid group with your own rules?

>

> I consider people lying about their skills to join experienced groups to be much more toxic to the community that experienced groups who simply want to hire people with the same level of experience for the job.

 

i meant incorrect in your assessment that this content "isn't for me." I don't see how you consider psychologically convincing others as part of the raiding experience/content.

 

Nothing prevents me forming my own group or putting forth tremendous effort to get into raiding, but therein lies the point of the thread, which is that it does require far too much psychological convincing of others (effort) to get into/form a decent raiding group. In addition, everyone faces this same amount of tremendous effort when getting into raiding, and as such, this makes players either not get into raiding (which is the majority, because it requires too much effort currently) or it results in extreme elitism and selectivity by those who do. This elitist selective barrier to entry into raids should be reduced or mitigated in some way (preferably by anet introducing new mechanics, since we cannot psychologically alter people's minds).

[IndigoSundown.5419]

There are two possible conditions:

 

1) There are not many people who want easy access to raid content.

2) There are a lot of people who want the above.

 

3) If 1, then the developer resources to make anything happen would be better spent on things larger demographics want.

4) If 2, then there are plenty of people who can make their own guilds and groups and do the existing raid content, perhaps starting with the easier encounters.

 

If 4 does not satisfy the complainers, then the issue devolves down to wanting convenience in addition to access to raids.

 

I have no idea how difficult it would be to add auto-grouping _in addition to the existing LFG_. Were ANet to do so, then:

 

5) Those who want requirements could use the existing LFG.

6) Those who want to avoid requirements could use the auto-grouping tool.

 

The problems I see with that are:

 

7) How does ANet ensure that roles envisioned by the raid devs get filled? Auto-grouping without such could result in group failure.

8) How does ANet ensure that people who use the auto-grouping option don't just kick people they believe are causing issues (either interpersonal or mechanical)? Were that behavior to occur, it would in all likelihood undo any possible benefit to the currently aggrieved players.

 

The above makes me suspect that auto-grouping without tiered raids would be both resource intensive and prone to fail. Tiered raids represent an increase in dev resources allocated to raids above what is needed for the auto-group feature. That brings me back to the question of just how many would benefit.

 

Finally, tiered raids work in other games where raiding is the only meaningful endgame content. More dev resources allocated to raids in GW2 would mean GW2 is moving in that direction. Speaking for myself, I would prefer that not happen.

[Coulter.2315]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

> >

> > If you cut out the possibility of failure you're not playing challenging group content anymore.

>

> Again, the challenge should be in *how* you succeed, not *whether* you succeed. The challenge should be in clearing the content fast, rather than in being able to clear it at all.

 

Ohoni, I think you're the only person in the world who uses that definition of 'challenge.'

 

 

[nosleepdemon.1368]

What a lot of nonsense. If there is any elitism to fix, then perhaps this player might suggest that the OP pull the stick out of their bottom in equal measure. There are many, many guilds out there more than happy to take new players on raids. The problem, is that some players would rather not bother, since they spend so much time trying to solo the forums instead.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

> What a lot of nonsense. If there is any elitism to fix, then perhaps this player might suggest that the OP pull the stick out of their bottom in equal measure. There are many, many guilds out there more than happy to take new players on raids. The problem, is that some players would rather not bother, since they spend so much time trying to solo the forums instead.

 

yah your right, all of the new people getting into raids should just sit in LFG all day, just to be kicked out because we don't have enough LI, and they don't know who we are. Definitely not a problem there that A-net needs to address... They should just keep making raids with no options or support for players, just let them figure it out and if they don't just proclaim that the entire game mode is "not for them." Because playing psychological persuasion game is 99% of the skill involved in raiding, as opposed to actual gaming skills. And if we are skilful players in the game, but don't want to/aren't good at playing the psychological persuasion game then we should just put in 1000x more effort to forming our own raiding guild and vetting new players/leading raids then we ever had to compared to any other mmo on the market.

 

Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill or no intent of winning only to get demoralized and give up, because there is no alternatives to raiding, no options and no convenience or quality of life improvements. So you either have friends and get lucky with other good players or the "content isn't for you" and also there is definitely no place to physically showcase your skill to anyone, its 100% verbal psychology when joining raids or kick before enter.

 

But yah its definitely a me problem, not like the entire community has been shouting for alternatives or options to/for raiding for months or anything.

[Coulter.2315]

 

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

 

> Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill

 

I knew this was what you were upset about.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> There are two possible conditions:

>

> 1) There are not many people who want easy access to raid content.

> 2) There are a lot of people who want the above.

>

> 3) If 1, then the developer resources to make anything happen would be better spent on things larger demographics want.

> 4) If 2, then there are plenty of people who can make their own guilds and groups and do the existing raid content, perhaps starting with the easier encounters.

>

> If 4 does not satisfy the complainers, then the issue devolves down to wanting convenience in addition to access to raids.

>

> I have no idea how difficult it would be to add auto-grouping _in addition to the existing LFG_. Were ANet to do so, then:

>

> 5) Those who want requirements could use the existing LFG.

> 6) Those who want to avoid requirements could use the auto-grouping tool.

>

> The problems I see with that are:

>

> 7) How does ANet ensure that roles envisioned by the raid devs get filled? Auto-grouping without such could result in group failure.

> 8) How does ANet ensure that people who use the auto-grouping option don't just kick people they believe are causing issues (either interpersonal or mechanical)? Were that behavior to occur, it would in all likelihood undo any possible benefit to the currently aggrieved players.

>

> The above makes me suspect that auto-grouping without tiered raids would be both resource intensive and prone to fail. Tiered raids represent an increase in dev resources allocated to raids above what is needed for the auto-group feature. That brings me back to the question of just how many would benefit.

>

> Finally, tiered raids work in other games where raiding is the only meaningful endgame content. More dev resources allocated to raids in GW2 would mean GW2 is moving in that direction. Speaking for myself, I would prefer that not happen.

 

I agree with everything you said and for 7,8 I don't know the specific solution either to any of this, i'm just throwing out idea's.

 

I do agree that if they added more support/options and tiered raids it would mean greater allocation of resources to raids, which would probably mean less content in other area's of the game. That said, they are adding new raid wings, so as you can see they are still pursuing new raid content which takes away from other game modes. They however (as with most things in this game) are not putting in the required features to making raiding a fully fleshed out community supported game mode. When they develop raids that have no difficulty options or grouping options, its like they are shooting themselves in the foot because they are making great content that the majority of players won't participate in most likely due to the lack options/alternatives that all other mmo's have.

 

 

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Kapax.3801 said:

> This thread is full of elitists, the game is like this for people like you.

>

> This is funny, the raids privatized by a small group.

 

If anything this post is somewhat balanced in opinions, in Reddit it would have been shut down minutes after being posted. I don't mind raids, I don't mind raiders, so this isn't an issue for me but wanted to clarify that people that don't agree with you aren't necessarily elitists/whatever label you wanna put on them.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

>

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

>

> > Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill

>

> I knew this was what you were upset about.

 

it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty? And that's raiding in a nutshell?

 

Or i should put forth tremendous effort, far more then in any other mmo requires you to put forth, and i should Train said noobies and bring them into a guild and vet them as well, which would result in more elitism, because again the difficulty is too hard for the majority of the casual player base, and we don't need/want more alternatives to raiding? Those players would then have to psychologically convince me to join my raid group, and we're right back in the same situation we're in now. I'm trying to break this cycle, not contribute to it.

[Coulter.2315]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> >

> > > Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill

> >

> > I knew this was what you were upset about.

>

> it's a valid point, but what's your point?

 

"Raids are a huge chunk of content which is not played by the majority of the player base due to elitism." This was your first sentence, but it turns out you're one of those elitists. "Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill".

 

You aren't complaining about elitists, you're complaining you don't get treated as an elite.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

> > >

> > > If you cut out the possibility of failure you're not playing challenging group content anymore.

> >

> > Again, the challenge should be in *how* you succeed, not *whether* you succeed. The challenge should be in clearing the content fast, rather than in being able to clear it at all.

> What is the justification behind that definition of what raids should be, and how do you know that it's what the raiding community wants?

> From what I know, the raiding community was pretty satisfied with raids as they are right now (except maybe w4 being too easy)

 

The current raiding community, yes, but the raiding community is a very tiny portion of the GW2 community, *because* the raid excludes so many others.

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > >

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > >

> > > > Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill

> > >

> > > I knew this was what you were upset about.

> >

> > it's a valid point, but what's your point?

>

> "Raids are a huge chunk of content which is not played by the majority of the player base due to elitism." This was your first sentence, but it turns out you're one of those elitists. "Or even better, skilled players who simply cant persuade others verbally that they are good should have to slug it out in the trenches with other players who have no skill".

>

> You aren't complaining about elitists, you're complaining you don't get treated as an elite.

 

I edited my post above, and no this is not a me problem read all of the other posts I made on here, it affects everyone.

 

also what does being "treated like an elite" mean anyways?

 

Playing well and being left alone? Not talking and winning every fight? Sign me up that sounds great, please tell me how I can showcase my skill to everyone with minimal effort to get into said raid group, like i can with every other mmo out there that has raiding options?

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

I believe that generally in the game, there are two main categories of activities:

- Those we can do "simply like that". More or less, we can just jump straight in, hands in pocket, and learn/manage live on the go.

- Those having special mechanisms, with the need of teamwork and well trained strategy. For those, it is impossible to jump in "simply like that". They require efforts. They require learning and training. They require the right builds and equipment. The team must have a certain combination of classes, well coordinated, with each member "educated" about his/her role. It is not given simply like that, and it creates automatically a form of selection upon building up a team.

 

To my eyes, PPK mode in WvW and raids are of the second category (with different degrees of difficulty). Fractals in a certain way too. Raiding is clearly the most extreme of those.

 

On my opinion, to decide to go for raiding needs commitment and will work best via joining a raiding guild. They will have every weeks training sessions and experienced sessions, allowing to practice as required, and also, it will never be a problem anymore to find a team, since they go regularly for it.

[zoomborg.9462]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

 

Yeah lets turn raids into world bosses....

[minion.1987]

never going to happen never fix things only add on top of it. going to be forced to use meta either way so it'll stay the same.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

"Elitism" will go down as soon as this useless build diversity gets removed and performance gap btween classes gets down to 10% max. So never with the current balancing approach.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty?

>

 

No it's not a valid point. Every "elitist" out there started by playing with a bunch of "noobies", as you call them, because they were "noobies" themselves.

What you are asking here is for a way for those "noobie" players to be accepted into groups of "elitists" because -reasons-. That's never going to happen.

If you had the skill as you say to join the "elitists", you'd join them, what exactly is preventing you?

[sigur.9453]

raids are fine (except there release schedule)

don´t like elistist? don´t play with them then.

i don´t like to play with super casuals when i still need a bosskill, yet im not complaining on forums.

the "leave grp"/"make grp" button is always available

 

don´t limit yourself

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty?

> >

>

> No it's not a valid point. Every "elitist" out there started by playing with a bunch of "noobies", as you call them, because they were "noobies" themselves.

> What you are asking here is for a way for those "noobie" players to be accepted into groups of "elitists" because -reasons-. That's never going to happen.

> If you had the skill as you say to join the "elitists", you'd join them, what exactly is preventing you?

 

Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty?

> > >

> >

> > No it's not a valid point. Every "elitist" out there started by playing with a bunch of "noobies", as you call them, because they were "noobies" themselves.

> > What you are asking here is for a way for those "noobie" players to be accepted into groups of "elitists" because -reasons-. That's never going to happen.

> > If you had the skill as you say to join the "elitists", you'd join them, what exactly is preventing you?

>

> Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

 

there is a bunch of statics recruiting atm (casual, semi-hardcore, hardcore)

show your rotation on the golem, if it fits the requirements, you should be good to go

 

it´s not telapathy, but talking with people ingame might help