Stories Locked Behind Raids [Merged]

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> Indeed. But they did hint at Lazarus' return here, and they introduced this character to people that did not play gw1. Both things were an important groundwork for the first chapter of LS3, and that chapter is incomplete without them.

>

>

 

LOL and how did that "tease" work in the game? Our characters didn't bother to mention anything about it as if the entire wing 3 never happened.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> Indeed. But they did hint at Lazarus' return here, and they introduced this character to people that did not play gw1. Both things were an important groundwork for the first chapter of LS3, and that chapter is incomplete without them.

>

 

No they didn't hint at his return there.

 

They first hinted at his return in GW1 itself. source -> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lazarus_the_Dire

>! When Lazarus eventually came to claim the corrupted aspect, he felt his power turn on him. He fled to go into recovery, but not before vowing vengeance against "countless generations".

 

The raid literally didn't contain anything to do with him. It was a glorified rescue mission where-in some white mantle zealots drunk way too much kool-aid and thought they were doing something they clearly weren't.

 

Additionally, the entirity of the story that went on in raids aka find the missing pact operatives is explained to every player in LS3 ch 1 via a first hand account by Squad Leader Bennet in which even if you had no clue GW1 had raids you could experience the story and it was a complete package. Thus the mission to rescue him is a side story and everything contained within including the misinformation that was showcased had no impact on the story. What really triggered the main story wasn't shown at all until PoF and that's the main problem. Narratively they jumped through hoops to not explain Rytlock and that lead to too many people having a warped perspective on the actual storyline.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > Indeed. But they did hint at Lazarus' return here, and they introduced this character to people that did not play gw1. Both things were an important groundwork for the first chapter of LS3, and that chapter is incomplete without them.

> >

>

> No they didn't hint at his return there.

>

> They first hinted at his return in GW1 itself. source -> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lazarus_the_Dire

> >! When Lazarus eventually came to claim the corrupted aspect, he felt his power turn on him. He fled to go into recovery, but not before vowing vengeance against "countless generations".

>

> The raid literally didn't contain anything to do with him. It was a glorified rescue mission where-in some white mantle zealots drunk way too much kool-aid and thought they were doing something they clearly weren't.

>

> Additionally, the entirity of the story that went on in raids aka find the missing pact operatives is explained to every player in LS3 ch 1 via a first hand account by Squad Leader Bennet in which even if you had no clue GW1 had raids you could experience the story and it was a complete package. Thus the mission to rescue him is a side story and everything contained within including the misinformation that was showcased had no impact on the story. What really triggered the main story wasn't shown at all until PoF and that's the main problem. Narratively they jumped through hoops to not explain Rytlock and that lead to too many people having a warped perspective on the actual storyline.

 

Best solution is to not include any story in raids. Platforms, bosses, mechanics. This way I will lose my reason to complain, you won't read my posts and raids will be released faster. Tripple win, no RNG :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Best solution is to not include any story in raids. Platforms, bosses, mechanics. This way I will lose my reason to complain, you won't read my posts and raids will be released faster. Tripple win, no RNG :)

 

As you will see on Tuesday, that won't happen.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > Best solution is to not include any story in raids. Platforms, bosses, mechanics. This way I will lose my reason to complain, you won't read my posts and raids will be released faster. Tripple win, no RNG :)

>

> As you will see on Tuesday, that won't happen.

 

Most likely. However, they have another chance to prove that raid story will be seperate. They failed with Forsaken Thicket but did okay with Bastion :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Most likely. However, they have another chance to prove that raid story will be seperate. They failed with Forsaken Thicket but did okay with Bastion :)

 

They did not fail anything as explained already. :)

And funny that you mentioned Bastion, for some people Bastion was "worse" than Forsaken Thicket. I guess different people have different priorities.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > Most likely. However, they have another chance to prove that raid story will be seperate. They failed with Forsaken Thicket but did okay with Bastion :)

>

> They did not fail anything as explained already. :)

> And funny that you mentioned Bastion, for some people Bastion was "worse" than Forsaken Thicket. I guess different people have different priorities.

 

I am disappointed that Saul's mystery was explained in raid but his story is irrelevant to LW3 while R1 story is connected to main story and is a direct proof of devs lying about not making raids relevant for story, as explained already :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> I am disappointed that Saul's mystery was explained in raid but his story is irrelevant to LW3 while R1 story is connected to main story and is a direct proof of devs lying about not making raids relevant for story, as explained already :)

 

Everything you need to know is explained outside the Raid, and in much greater detail. You know all about their plans and more, all available on the same episode that Lazarus appeared. If you are blind or didn't notice it's not the fault of the game. All the story is available to you without ever touching the Raid :)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > I am disappointed that Saul's mystery was explained in raid but his story is irrelevant to LW3 while R1 story is connected to main story and is a direct proof of devs lying about not making raids relevant for story, as explained already :)

>

> Everything you need to know is explained outside the Raid, and in much greater detail. You know all about their plans and more, all available on the same episode that Lazarus appeared. If you are blind or didn't notice it's not the fault of the game. All the story is available to you without ever touching the Raid :)

 

Reading stuff in journals and actually discovering mysteries through gameplay is different. The raid lore ties with LW3 which means it's not side story :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> Reading stuff in journals and actually discovering mysteries through gameplay is different. The raid lore ties with LW3 which means it's not side story :)

 

You are also reading things inside the raid to understand what is happening. It's perfect side story material with no influence to the actual story. :)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > Indeed. But they did hint at Lazarus' return here, and they introduced this character to people that did not play gw1. Both things were an important groundwork for the first chapter of LS3, and that chapter is incomplete without them.

> >

> >

>

> LOL and how did that "tease" work in the game? Our characters didn't bother to mention anything about it as if the entire wing 3 never happened.

>

The _players_ that did the raid however were not as surprised and guessing what the kitten's going on, who's Lazarus and why should he appear in there as everyone else, that had no such prior knowledge.

 

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> No they didn't hint at his return there.

>

> They first hinted at his return in GW1 itself. source -> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lazarus_the_Dire

No. In gw1 they hinted at his possible return at some undefined point of time in the future. In raids they hinted that something _is going on right now_.

 

 

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> Additionally, the entirity of the story that went on in raids aka find the missing pact operatives is explained to every player in LS3 ch 1 via a first hand account by Squad Leader Bennet in which even if you had no clue GW1 had raids you could experience the story and it was a complete package.

Then, if you think that an infodump is an equivalent to actually playiong through the story, then what's the problem in having all the stories that are important either for the main story or for the lore in general being accessible outside raids? You could read about it later on and have an equivalent experience, right?

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> No. In gw1 they hinted at his possible return at some undefined point of time in the future. In raids they hinted that something _is going on right now_.

It's happening concurrent, but that doesn't make it part of the raid story. The raid story is all about saving Squad Leader Bennet and his squad. If you wish to debate that then you must have missed LS2 with the plot to overthrow the queen which was the first hint we had of both the White Mantle and their activity.

> Then, if you think that an infodump is an equivalent to actually playiong through the story, then what's the problem in having all the stories that are important either for the main story or for the lore in general being accessible outside raids? You could read about it later on and have an equivalent experience, right?

 

I personally have no problem with infodumps, never have. Exposition is just another tool in the writers kit.

I also never claimed equivalence either, i stated you could get the entirety of the stories flow without once having touched the raid itself. Which is a fact.

 

If you want the interactive elements of story telling, raid. If you don't then you'll have to live with that and whatever the developers choose to do to satiate that need of yours for a complete story experience while taking yourself out of it willfully.

 

Also for the It is/isn't a side story debate above i suggest you kinda you know learn about what a side story is, because Raid Wings 1-4 meet the accepted literary definitions of a side story.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > Reading stuff in journals and actually discovering mysteries through gameplay is different. The raid lore ties with LW3 which means it's not side story :)

>

> You are also reading things inside the raid to understand what is happening. It's perfect side story material with no influence to the actual story. :)

 

It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

 

Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

[TexZero.7910]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

>

> Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

 

Because literary definitions somehow are lost - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiden and if you say hurrr durr japanese doesnt count - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

 

All of wings 1-4 meet the criteria provided for being a side story.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

> >

> > Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

>

> Because literary definitions somehow are lost - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiden and if you say hurrr durr japanese doesnt count - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

>

> All of wings 1-4 meet the criteria provided for being a side story.

>

 

Thank you for your wiki links.

 

Only Bastion of the Penitent is side story :)

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> The _players_ that did the raid however were not as surprised and guessing what the kitten's going on, who's Lazarus and why should he appear in there as everyone else, that had no such prior knowledge.

 

And? The journals give you all the info on who Lazarus is as well and way more lore exposition than a single name.

The only line that teases that Lazarus was in there is this:

> : Did Lazarus escape? Or was he killed in the process? What happened here?

 

That single line is a huge lore bit that should've been left out of the Raids right? And you are still missing the fact that our characters didn't even mention finding Lazarus. They didn't even mention they found a White Mantle Stronghold, all while the leader of the Vigil didn't even mention the missing Pact squad, or I don't know, thank the commander for helping said Pact Squad.

 

You are trying to prove that the Raid contained lore that anyone who didn't play it missed it, but it's the other way around. Those who played it don't even make any kind of sense of what's going on after it as aside for Benett no other NPC has dialogue that acknowledges that the Raid actually happened. Finding Lazarus and a White Mantle cell of that size wasn't even news worthy.

 

But for one thing Kheldorn is right, I hope they get the next Raid right, but for different reasons, I hope the next Raid is tied to the story of the game better and at least the world itself acknowledges its existence, unlike the previous 2 Raids that are as if they've never happened, outside the lore and outside the story with zero connection.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

> > >

> > > Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

> >

> > Because literary definitions somehow are lost - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiden and if you say hurrr durr japanese doesnt count - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

> >

> > All of wings 1-4 meet the criteria provided for being a side story.

> >

>

> Thank you for your wiki links.

>

> Only Bastion of the Penitent is side story :)

 

I see reading isn't your strongest ability.

 

We are playing through Squad Leader Bennet's Story in the raids. That makes it a SIDE STORY.

 

Just because said character is relevant in universe at current doesn't change that.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

> > > >

> > > > Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

> > >

> > > Because literary definitions somehow are lost - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiden and if you say hurrr durr japanese doesnt count - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

> > >

> > > All of wings 1-4 meet the criteria provided for being a side story.

> > >

> >

> > Thank you for your wiki links.

> >

> > Only Bastion of the Penitent is side story :)

>

> I see reading isn't your strongest ability.

>

> We are playing through Squad Leader Bennet's Story in the raids. That makes it a SIDE STORY.

>

> Just because said character is relevant in universe at current doesn't change that.

>

 

It's not side story because it leads to happenings of Out of the Shadows. This is main story smuggled into the raid :)

[TexZero.7910]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > It has direct consequences for main story which makes it anything but side quest :)

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's hope devs learned they lesson and go back to respecting their major portion of community :)

> > > >

> > > > Because literary definitions somehow are lost - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaiden and if you say hurrr durr japanese doesnt count - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off_(media)

> > > >

> > > > All of wings 1-4 meet the criteria provided for being a side story.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thank you for your wiki links.

> > >

> > > Only Bastion of the Penitent is side story :)

> >

> > I see reading isn't your strongest ability.

> >

> > We are playing through Squad Leader Bennet's Story in the raids. That makes it a SIDE STORY.

> >

> > Just because said character is relevant in universe at current doesn't change that.

> >

>

> It's not side story because it leads to happenings of Out of the Shadows. This is main story smuggled into the raid :)

 

No, what leads to out of the shadows was LS2 and the plot to assassinate the queen which was foiled by Anise and Canach.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> No, what leads to out of the shadows was LS2 and the plot to assassinate the queen which was foiled by Anise and Canach.

 

You can also add the entire human story up to the part where you pick an order, the events in the dungeon Caudecu's Manor, the order of whispers story and many other parts also leading to Out of Shadows.

[Blaeys.3102]

The fact that people are going back and forth so much about whether it is "side story" or not simply reinforces the idea that the entire "side story" concept is nothing more than semantics.

 

I'm pretty sure that some of the people in this thread could justify just about anything as side story. As a perfect example, I'm sure they would have called the Balthazar story arc a "side story" if it had happened in a raid - not because it was actually a side story, but rather because they could find some tiny part of it that separated it from the "main story" (in that case, because it didn't directly deal with the dragons). I'm sure they would have said the same of the Minister Cadeceus arc - and even the Scarlet story from season one.

 

None of these - including what is in the raids now - are side stories because, in a living world MMO, there is no such thing. All of the stories come together to create the world. Side story is a purely semantic term people are using to justify their point of view - nothing more than that.

 

The really important question is would the general GW2 population - the ones that live in the Living World - find them interesting to experience (again - important word - a youtube video is not the same thing)? The answer is, of course they would. The first raid kicked off the bloodstone storyline. Wing 4 provided closure to a storyline/character that many people cared about and speculated about for years.

 

So, once again - they need to tell these stories outside of raids - because, by their own admission, raids are balanced for a smaller percentage of the game's community. If they are not going to change that (and they recently said they have no plans to), then they need to be VERY careful about making sure raids are not a primary device for any aspect of the lore or story.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Blaeys.3102 said:

> I'm pretty sure that some of the people in this thread could justify just about anything as side story. As a perfect example, I'm sure they would have called the Balthazar story arc a "side story" if it had happened in a raid - not because it was actually a side story, but rather because they could find some tiny part of it that separated it from the "main story" (in that case, because it didn't directly deal with the dragons). I'm sure they would have said the same of the Minister Cadeceus arc - and even the Scarlet story from season one.

 

It's the other way around. Someone found a tiny part of it that somehow connects with the story, but still you get all the same info (and more) about it in-game anyway, and calls it not a Side Story. I think some people in this thread would find any tiny excuse to justify that raid story is not a side story, or simply don't say anything, nor counter anything, and follow up with a smile at the end of their post.

[Blaeys.3102]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > I'm pretty sure that some of the people in this thread could justify just about anything as side story. As a perfect example, I'm sure they would have called the Balthazar story arc a "side story" if it had happened in a raid - not because it was actually a side story, but rather because they could find some tiny part of it that separated it from the "main story" (in that case, because it didn't directly deal with the dragons). I'm sure they would have said the same of the Minister Cadeceus arc - and even the Scarlet story from season one.

>

> It's the other way around. Someone found a tiny part of it that somehow connects with the story, but still you get all the same info (and more) about it in-game anyway, and calls it not a Side Story. I think some people in this thread would find any tiny excuse to justify that raid story is not a side story, or simply don't say anything, nor counter anything, and follow up with a smile at the end of their post.

 

Which is my whole point. Different people define that term differently - to the point where, especially in this conversation, it has no meaning whatsoever.

 

As I mentioned, it isn't what's important anyway. The really important question is would the general GW2 population - the ones that live in the Living World - find them interesting to experience (again - important word - a youtube video is not the same thing)? The answer is, of course they would. The first raid kicked off the bloodstone storyline. Wing 4 provided closure to a storyline/character that many people cared about and speculated about for years.

 

So, once again - they need to tell these stories outside of raids - because, by their own admission, raids are balanced for a smaller percentage of the game's community. If they are not going to change that (and they recently said they have no plans to), then they need to be VERY careful about making sure raids are not a primary device for any aspect of the lore or story.

[Cyninja.2954]

I stand by what I said earlier, the story in raids is minimal at best.

 

Honestly, the back and forth in this thread only leads me to believe a couple of people who do not raid just want to make a fuzz about something which they have not even experienced themselves and are imagining or interpreting way more context or story than there ever was. Watch a WP video on the raid story, realize that the 30-50 minutes or so he spends on talking about the raid story is based on maybe 1/2 a page of dialog and story (because he is WP, he made a 20+ minute video on 1 screenshot of the new raid).

 

Personally I have no objection if they tell side stories which are of absolutely 0 consequence to the main story (and might be related to GW1 things that would never have made it into the game anyway). While doing the actual raid you miss 80% of the story anyway and at best go through the raid instance afterwards and collect all the story achievements. I had way more insight into the raid story from watching someone explain it on youtube than I ever had while running through the raid.

[Blaeys.3102]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> I stand by what I said earlier, the story in raids is minimal at best.

>

> Honestly, the back and forth in this thread only leads me to believe a couple of people who do not raid just want to make a fuzz about something which they have not even experienced themselves and are imagining or interpreting way more context or story than there ever was. Watch a WP video on the raid story, realize that the 30-50 minutes or so he spends on talking about the raid story is based on maybe 1/2 a page of dialog and story (because he is WP, he made a 20+ minute video on 1 screenshot of the new raid).

>

> Personally I have no objection if they tell side stories which are of absolutely 0 consequence to the main story (and might be related to GW1 things that would never have made it into the game anyway). While doing the actual raid you miss 80% of the story anyway and at best go through the raid instance afterwards and collect all the story achievements. I had way more insight into the raid story from watching someone explain it on youtube than I ever had while running through the raid.

 

Which supports the idea of just leaving lore or character related story out of raids altogether. Most raiders do not care.

 

Also, I do raid - at least 2 nights every week (not that it matters for this particular discussion).