Raid difficulty and challenge motes

[Eponet.4829]

I used to be against it since they said that it would just be side stories and I assumed that meant that you could just ignore them. But then Living Story 3 turned out to be related to the events of the first set of raids.

 

If they're going to keep putting story related to the main plot into the raids, then they should be accessible to everyone.

 

That said, my main complaint is the fact that raids are designed in such a way that you can end up failing for ridiculous reasons completely outside of your control. With dungeons or most fractals, you could always put your failures on yourself since ideally you could have just done better and soloed it. But with raids, you're forced to rely on other people, which generates hostility between players and results in more people just lashing out and complaining that their team sucks. Typically followed by a mass of people leaving or getting kicked that ensures that no one is ever going to learn it because you're forced to keep recruiting new people who are likely either rusty, or also new.

 

Failing despite doing everything that you possibly could have isn't difficulty, it's just frustration.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @Eponet.4829 said:

> I used to be against it since they said that it would just be side stories and I assumed that meant that you could just ignore them. But then Living Story 3 turned out to be related to the events of the first set of raids.

>

> If they're going to keep putting story related to the main plot into the raids, then they should be accessible to everyone.

>

> That said, my main complaint is the fact that raids are designed in such a way that you can end up failing for ridiculous reasons completely outside of your control. With dungeons or most fractals, you could always put your failures on yourself since ideally you could have just done better and soloed it. But with raids, you're forced to rely on other people, which generates hostility between players and results in more people just lashing out and complaining that their team kitten. Typically followed by a mass of people leaving or getting kicked that ensures that no one is ever going to learn it because you're forced to keep recruiting new people who are likely either rusty, or also new.

 

The raids are side stories. What do we know before Forsaken Thicket? That Lazarus the Dire and the White Mantle are out there somewhere, rebuilding their power and plotting their return. What do we know after Forsaken Thicket? That Lazarus the Dire and the White Mantle are out there somewhere, rebuilding their power and plotting their return.

 

What do we know after Bastion of the Penitent? That Saul D'Alessio was taken by the Mursaat, never to be seen of again. What do we know after Bastion of the Penitent? That Saul D'Alessio was taken by the Mursaat, never to be seen of again. The only things we really learn from that raid wing is just how much Saul suffered at the hands of the Mursaat and that the Eye of Janthir is automated and is still carrying out the Mursaat's will, even with them gone for 250 years. And the information about the Eye is quickly reintroduced as soon as it became relevant to the main story.

 

Is this stuff from the raid all interesting? Absolutely. Is it core story? No. In fact none of it directly advances the story at all. It's basically interactive backstory.

[zealex.9410]

> @runeblade.7514 said:

> What I like about Fractals is that there is easy fractals and there is hard fractals.

>

> The easy fractals teaches me mechanics that prepares me for the hard fractals. If there was only T4 fractals at the start, it would be hard for me to get into fractals because people would be excluding me because I am not experienced just like them just like how raid currently does. I wouldn't have the minimal Pristine Fractal token to get in a group. It was really hard to get into Arah because no one wanted inexperienced players. Luckily, many other dungeons were easy to learn and PvP allowed me to get Arah gear. To this day, I still haven't experienced Arah content.

>

> I know a easier raid difficulty will help teach players get into a harder difficulty raid because lower tier fractals helped me get into higher tier fractals.

 

Same can be said for raids there are hard bosses and there are laughable bosses.

[zoomborg.9462]

> @Eponet.4829 said:

> I used to be against it since they said that it would just be side stories and I assumed that meant that you could just ignore them. But then Living Story 3 turned out to be related to the events of the first set of raids.

>

> If they're going to keep putting story related to the main plot into the raids, then they should be accessible to everyone.

>

> That said, my main complaint is the fact that raids are designed in such a way that you can end up failing for ridiculous reasons completely outside of your control. With dungeons or most fractals, you could always put your failures on yourself since ideally you could have just done better and soloed it. But with raids, you're forced to rely on other people, which generates hostility between players and results in more people just lashing out and complaining that their team kitten. Typically followed by a mass of people leaving or getting kicked that ensures that no one is ever going to learn it because you're forced to keep recruiting new people who are likely either rusty, or also new.

>

> Failing despite doing everything that you possibly could have isn't difficulty, it's just frustration.

 

U can learn an encounter in 4-5 tries. Except from Matthias, other encounters have little mechanics and most of them arent a group wipe. That means that if after 10 tries u arent getting any progress then u should consider who you u putting into your guild or into your group. Some people literally dont care about learning, they just expect a free ride (which is what usually happens). Also training runs without voice comm are already doomed to fail from the start, if some1 isn't willing to join ts/discord and listen that is an autokick from the group.

 

The raid difficulty is fine, having people bear personal responsibilty for mechanics like sloth poison,sab cannons, Mat poison/corruption, Xera ancient magic etc etc promotes personal skill and awareness and thats how it should be. Ofc some people learn faster and some people dont learn at all and that's where the drama begins. There's nothing u can do about that and difficulty isn't the problem, only people.

 

As for raid story, the only story (that literally no raider cares about) is told through reading scrolls and interacting with some items/places. U can get that all by joining a cleared instance but it's nothing significant. Having a story mode with braindead difficulty and no replayability (like any other story content) doesnt make sense at all, especially when it takes resources from the actual raid development.

[Sykper.6583]

> @Makai.3429 said:

> > @Sykper.6583 said:

> > > @Jahroots.6791 said:

> > > > @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

> > > >

> > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

> > >

> > > You were going really well up until this point. It's needless hyperbole.

> > >

> > > There's players who are old. Some are disabled. Others have manky hardware and internet connections. Maybe all three. It's very tempting to dismiss every complaint as coming from a place of laziness, but in truth most people want to play at a level of difficulty that is challenging and/or engaging _for them_.

> > >

> > > It's hard to accept this when you've reached a certain level of skill, but for a lot of players just beating Bloomhunger on T3 is a phenomenal task. Raids are simply beyond them, and at the current level of difficulty, will always be. And I think PVE group content is simply too sparse to exclude so many.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Don't even start with the victimization game with 'old' and 'disabled' players. Even excluding the counter-point that Arenanet shouldn't need to cater to the 'least capable' players who struggle the hardest with GW2 simply leveling up, there are several instances of said players that overcome whatever ails them to clear the content. I don't even have to look that hard into Youtube to find a video of a Gamer playing CSGO competently with one hand since his other arm is paralyzed.

> >

> > The only thing stopping would-be raiders from raiding is willpower and patience. The willpower to keep trying encounters, and the patience to accept failure can happen, that a kill might not happen that day.

>

> It's not a victimization game: there are legitimate problems with this game that prevent disabled players from participating. Some could be fixed, such as enhancing visualization through sliders, or adding color choices to AoE death rings, but Anet refuses to budge.

 

These were not the instances I was referring to. Applying better color-blind support is something I can absolutely get behind as it doesn't not affect the encounters in any significant manner, rather it assists those who have that particular disability to be on the same level as the regular player-base.

 

I'm referring to, if you want specifics, some things I've heard in game:

 

- "This is bullcrap, I can't dodge in time, how is anyone in their ****ing midlife going to do this?" - Older Gentleman not dodging Matthias's leaping AoE, you know the one that is telegraphed with that obvious flip.

- "How am I supposed to do my rotation when this boss is constantly moving and doing this ****! **** this game Anet needs to nerf this ****!" - Much younger gentleman in a Sloth Pug I was with, he played *Necromancer*.

 

Btw, I had a static I was a part of around 7 months ago where one of the core members was, she would actually brag about this, 62 years old. She played our druid and was really entertained about the raid content. Appropriately named Grandma, she would have her up and down days, though the best times were hearing her gloat when one of us would do really bad. I forget the exact phrasing but it was definitely akin to "You just got outdpsed by an old druid!"

 

I'm tired of supposed 'victims' who pretend to be one to hide their flaws of which they can easily work upon. Things like Color-blind support, more assisted support for one-handed play (I mean aside from the pricey mice and keybinding), things like that are fair. DIRECTLY asking for nerfs is a big NO.

[Taygus.4571]

I don't think raids should be made easier. ..story and open world should be very accessible and easy enough going. (Although i do think a tougher version of some story bosses would be good. ..especially for people to practise on. This should be a seprate journal tab..kinda like the arena).

 

I'm not interested in raids, i think they should be reserved for hardcore players.

....but for story maybe add a "spectator mode"?

Or you could just YouTube it.

[SirMoogie.9263]

> @timmyf.1490 said:

> Or you could just YouTube it.

 

Ah yes, what every game should strive for, a vast audience of Youtube watchers instead of players. This may not be important for many players, but there is an "RP" in "MMORPG". Part of that is taking your character, using them as your avatar in the world, and controlling them through fun and interesting events. Living Season 1 is no longer playable and all new players cannot experience it as it was meant to be. Would you trade their experience for yours, if you were there for Living Story Season 1? I wouldn't. The season had it's problems, but I wouldn't trade immersing my character in that engaging Marionette fight or the final battle with Scarlett on top of the breach maker for a recap video. So try to understand why many players won't take seriously your suggestion of watching a video over actually playing through the raid's story.

[Torolan.5816]

I don´t really care if people like to bash their head against the same wall over and over again until one, head or wall, finally breaks. I won´t do that, and it would be none of my business at all if Anet did not bring legendary armor into the equation. It´s not that I really need or or find it so exciting skinwise that I have to have it, it is the pure idea that there is a gamemode that hides something from me I can only get if I bend over to both the community and the numbers which irks me. i found that idea already wrong with fractals, I thought it to be wrong with pvp, and I think of it as wrong despite being a silver major wvw player. If a game mode cannot stand on its own feet and still gets updated, it has to stop getting attention. It´s actually that simple.

 

Of course you can throw in at this point that every other game mode will ask you for both things too, but the difference is clearly visible in my opinion:

*I assume than every creature with a thumb and some attention span can make a T1 fractal. You can earn your way up to the point where you can´t go anymore on your own and need help from guild members.

*Through sheer determination and a little bit of luck, you can win 6 ranked matches in a day and fall up the ladder of PvP in a given season.

*You can do grunt work like repairing and building and still progress in wvw. It will take forever, but you can do it when and how long you want.

In a raid, you either have to be carried from the get go or pull your own weight, you can´t contribute much on your own if option 1 is not available.

 

My personal choice would be one trader in lions arch that has stuff like legendary armor for sale.

*You suck in raids but excel in pvp? Very good, here is your armor.

*You suck at wvw but excel in raids? Very good, here is your armor.

Of course this would invalidate the so much sought vaildation of the effort of raiders, but who cares about that beside, uhm, raiders? Bragging rights about stuff that can be bought through carrying is ridiculous anyway when you think about trade master players who can buy, sell them for a dollar and rebuy a raid team again without breaking a sweat.

And yes, people would look for the easier roads, but the raiding community could be sure that only the people really dedicated to the game mode would actually do it.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @Torolan.5816 said:

> I don´t really care if people like to bash their head against the same wall over and over again until one, head or wall, finally breaks. I won´t do that, and it would be none of my business at all if Anet did not bring legendary armor into the equation. It´s not that I really need or or find it so exciting skinwise that I have to have it, it is the pure idea that there is a gamemode that hides something from me I can only get if I bend over to both the community and the numbers which irks me. i found that idea already wrong with fractals, I thought it to be wrong with pvp, and I think of it as wrong despite being a silver major wvw player. If a game mode cannot stand on its own feet and still gets updated, it has to stop getting attention. It´s actually that simple.

>

> Of course you can throw in at this point that every other game mode will ask you for both things too, but the difference is clearly visible in my opinion:

> *I assume than every creature with a thumb and some attention span can make a T1 fractal. You can earn your way up to the point where you can´t go anymore on your own and need help from guild members.

> *Through sheer determination and a little bit of luck, you can win 6 ranked matches in a day and fall up the ladder of PvP in a given season.

> *You can do grunt work like repairing and building and still progress in wvw. It will take forever, but you can do it when and how long you want.

> In a raid, you either have to be carried from the get go or pull your own weight, you can´t contribute much on your own if option 1 is not available.

>

> My personal choice would be one trader in lions arch that has stuff like legendary armor for sale.

> *You suck in raids but excel in pvp? Very good, here is your armor.

> *You suck at wvw but excel in raids? Very good, here is your armor.

> Of course this would invalidate the so much sought vaildation of the effort of raiders, but who cares about that beside, uhm, raiders? Bragging rights about stuff that can be bought through carrying is ridiculous anyway when you think about trade master players who can buy, sell them for a dollar and rebuy a raid team again without breaking a sweat.

> And yes, people would look for the easier roads, but the raiding community could be sure that only the people really dedicated to the game mode would actually do it.

 

You can obtain legendary armor from WvW and SPvP. It doesn't have the specific skins, but you can get them there.

[Torolan.5816]

Oh, this fell into a timeperiod where I took a break. Very good! Consider my other post invalid.^^

[Astralporing.1957]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > Anything _new_? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in _years_, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it.

>

> 3 new fractals in 1 year aren't instanced content for the general population?

 

Nope. Those fractals are pretty much meant for the same subgroup of players that raids are for. They are definitely not meant for the same players that liked dungeons, for example. Hyper Cutter is pretty spot on here.

 

> @Jahroots.6791 said:

> What's strange is that despite Crystal's post it still feels like the community in this sub-forum is still being defensive and trying to create an atmosphere where criticism isn't welcome.

>

> There's something almost cult-like about the predictable responses to posts you should all be ignoring at this point. *shudders

 

Perhaps it's because they know that Anet has been known to change their minds when faced with constant pressure. The introduction of raids to GW2 is one of the most clear examples, by the way. Whatever Crystal is saying, is about how the things are _now_. It doesn't mean there may be no change in the future.

 

> @timmyf.1490 said:

> > @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years.

> > There isn't even a fear of falling behind on gear and everyone running past you.

> >

> > Also what progression? Who is raiding every week that hasn't cleared all four wings now?

>

> It's almost like the most vocal anti-raiding crowd has raided very little in GW2 and merely carried their negative opinions of progression raiding from other games here due to the shared use of the word "raid."

 

I'm actually raiding in this game as well. And to be honest of all the negatives of the previous games only one (loot distribution) isn't present. Granted, that one _is_ quite major. In general, Rennie is right - raids create a pressure that is really unhealthy. Especially if your playing time is limited, and raiding ends up a significant part of it. GW2 is no exception to that.

 

Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common.

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > Anything _new_? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in _years_, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it.

> >

> > 3 new fractals in 1 year aren't instanced content for the general population?

>

> Nope. Those fractals are pretty much meant for the same subgroup of players that raids are for. They are definitely not meant for the same players that liked dungeons, for example. Hyper Cutter is pretty spot on here.

>

> > @Jahroots.6791 said:

> > What's strange is that despite Crystal's post it still feels like the community in this sub-forum is still being defensive and trying to create an atmosphere where criticism isn't welcome.

> >

> > There's something almost cult-like about the predictable responses to posts you should all be ignoring at this point. *shudders

>

> Perhaps it's because they know that Anet has been known to change their minds when faced with constant pressure. The introduction of raids to GW2 is one of the most clear examples, by the way. Whatever Crystal is saying, is about how the things are _now_. It doesn't mean there may be no change in the future.

>

> > @timmyf.1490 said:

> > > @mortrialus.3062 said:

> > > > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > > After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years.

> > > There isn't even a fear of falling behind on gear and everyone running past you.

> > >

> > > Also what progression? Who is raiding every week that hasn't cleared all four wings now?

> >

> > It's almost like the most vocal anti-raiding crowd has raided very little in GW2 and merely carried their negative opinions of progression raiding from other games here due to the shared use of the word "raid."

>

> I'm actually raiding in this game as well. And to be honest of all the negatives of the previous games only one (loot distribution) isn't present. Granted, that one _is_ quite major. In general, Rennie is right - raids create a pressure that is really unhealthy. Especially if your playing time is limited, and raiding ends up a significant part of it. GW2 is no exception to that.

>

> Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common.

>

 

I think lack of gear treadmill with raiding is also one "negative" in other games that doesn't apply here. Worst case scenario you spend some gold to change stats on gear, but there is definitely no invalidation of the top end gear with every new raid release.

 

"Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common."

- According to who exactly? Surviving as a human being is full of handling pressure. You may argue that some folks don't want to apply that to how they spend their leisure time, but there's really no point in bringing that up if there aren't numbers to support it either way.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

 

> "Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common."

> - According to who exactly? Surviving as a human being is full of handling pressure. You may argue that some folks don't want to apply that to how they spend their leisure time, but there's really no point in bringing that up if there aren't numbers to support it either way.

 

Being able to cope with something is not the same as being fine with it, and it's definitely not the same as actually _liking_ it. And if you think that people always react to stress peacefully, calmly and with happiness, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the world outside.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

>

> > "Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common."

> > - According to who exactly? Surviving as a human being is full of handling pressure. You may argue that some folks don't want to apply that to how they spend their leisure time, but there's really no point in bringing that up if there aren't numbers to support it either way.

>

> Being able to cope with something is not the same as being fine with it, and it's definitely not the same as actually _liking_ it. And if you think that people always react to stress peacefully, calmly and with happiness, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the world outside.

>

 

Has it occurred to you that if you're experiencing stress while raiding then you're probably not doing it as intended? That there's a way to play this content and actually enjoy it? Enjoy it so much, in fact, that you return to it not for rewards, but for the sheer experience of playing it? Let me tell you a secret: nobody likes to pug. But a lot of people love raiding.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

> >

> > > "Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common."

> > > - According to who exactly? Surviving as a human being is full of handling pressure. You may argue that some folks don't want to apply that to how they spend their leisure time, but there's really no point in bringing that up if there aren't numbers to support it either way.

> >

> > Being able to cope with something is not the same as being fine with it, and it's definitely not the same as actually _liking_ it. And if you think that people always react to stress peacefully, calmly and with happiness, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the world outside.

> >

>

> Has it occurred to you that if you're experiencing stress while raiding then you're probably not doing it as intended? That there's a way to play this content and actually enjoy it? Enjoy it so much, in fact, that you return to it not for rewards, but for the sheer experience of playing it? Let me tell you a secret: nobody likes to pug. But a lot of people love raiding.

 

If you're suggesting i shouldn't pug it but instead find a static, then i have already did that. It doesn't change a thing (nor did this change a thing in the previous games i was raiding in). In fact, if you've read Rennie's post (that started this exchange) you'd see that those points brought in it are even more stronger in a static group.

 

And no, there's no more enjoyable way to play this content, and that's by design. It just requires too much of a commitment, and that will always generate pressure. It's just, as i said, there are people that like that kind of environment, so they don't really notice it.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> And no, there's no more enjoyable way to play this content, and that's by design. It just requires too much of a commitment, and that will always generate pressure. It's just, as i said, there are people that like that kind of environment, so they don't really notice it.

 

That's a load of nonsense, you can have very enjoyable raid runs, especially in static groups. Maybe not for the first kill, but after a while you get to the point that you can reliably try silly builds and compositions and win. Or when members of the static group want to train in some new role. If your static is a good group of people you know and respect then there is no pressure either.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

> > >

> > > > "Yes, there are people that thrive in this kind of environment, but that's by no mean common."

> > > > - According to who exactly? Surviving as a human being is full of handling pressure. You may argue that some folks don't want to apply that to how they spend their leisure time, but there's really no point in bringing that up if there aren't numbers to support it either way.

> > >

> > > Being able to cope with something is not the same as being fine with it, and it's definitely not the same as actually _liking_ it. And if you think that people always react to stress peacefully, calmly and with happiness, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the world outside.

> > >

> >

> > Has it occurred to you that if you're experiencing stress while raiding then you're probably not doing it as intended? That there's a way to play this content and actually enjoy it? Enjoy it so much, in fact, that you return to it not for rewards, but for the sheer experience of playing it? Let me tell you a secret: nobody likes to pug. But a lot of people love raiding.

>

> If you're suggesting i shouldn't pug it but instead find a static, then i have already did that. It doesn't change a thing (nor did this change a thing in the previous games i was raiding in). In fact, if you've read Rennie's post (that started this exchange) you'd see that those points brought in it are even more stronger in a static group.

>

> And no, there's no more enjoyable way to play this content, and that's by design. It just requires too much of a commitment, and that will always generate pressure. It's just, as i said, there are people that like that kind of environment, so they don't really notice it.

 

I disagree on both points, because my experience is exactly the opposite. Playing in a static dramatically reduced the stress of it and we do genuinely enjoy the experience. Also, just like everything in a game, raiding is supposed to be fun, and to be enjoyed. That's the whole point of a game. Mind you, raiding with a static reduced my patience toward pugging. I'd rather skip a boss, or a wing, or the whole week, than pug it if I'm unable to raid with my team. Because pugging is just too annoying in contrast and I have no reason to willingly succumb to this. I'm not in there for the rewards, I'm in there for the great time with the people I became sort of friends with. I'm typing all this to simply make a point - it's not that "I don't notice the pressure". There isn't any. And if there is, it comes from the people who play it, not from the content itself. Sure, it's more challenging. But not *that* challenging.

[Zenith.7301]

My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

 

Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

 

And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

 

Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

 

What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

 

Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

 

Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

>

> Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

>

> And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

>

> Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

>

> What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

>

> Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

>

> Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

 

Given how players had a problem with something really easy like Eater of Souls, the LFR version of the Raid would need to be so stupidly easy and a joke encounter anyway.

[Zenith.7301]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

> >

> > Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

> >

> > And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

> >

> > Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

> >

> > What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

> >

> > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

> >

> > Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

>

> Given how players had a problem with something really easy like Eater of Souls, the LFR version of the Raid would need to be so stupidly easy and a joke encounter anyway.

 

That wasn't the point. The point was that raids could then partake in the story. Casuals can have their joke encounter, but how the story is told, it actually takes a goddamn raid to dispatch Lazarus after needing a raid to dispatch his far lesser minions.

 

If it takes a raid to dispatch Xera or Deimos, it should take a raid to dispatch Lazarus or Balthazar or any of the elder dragons. It is such a disservice to dispatch these lore figures on your lonesome in simplistic, one-time encounters.

[Yossarian.2159]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

> > >

> > > Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

> > >

> > > And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

> > >

> > > Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

> > >

> > > What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

> > >

> > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

> > >

> > > Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

> >

> > Given how players had a problem with something really easy like Eater of Souls, the LFR version of the Raid would need to be so stupidly easy and a joke encounter anyway.

>

> That wasn't the point. The point was that raids could then partake in the story. Casuals can have their joke encounter, but how the story is told, it actually takes a kitten raid to dispatch Lazarus after needing a raid to dispatch his far lesser minions.

>

> If it takes a raid to dispatch Xera or Deimos, it should take a raid to dispatch Lazarus or Balthazar or any of the elder dragons. It is such a disservice to dispatch these lore figures on your lonesome in simplistic, one-time encounters.

 

Lazarus had been separated for a long time and had been damaged when he reformed in GW1 times. At this point he's very weak, which is how you're able to kill him without a raid. Xera has been channeling the power of the Bloodstone and Deimos has been active, even if he's been doing the same thing for 230 years (and may not actually be real).

[Zenith.7301]

> @Yossarian.2159 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

> > > >

> > > > Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

> > > >

> > > > And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

> > > >

> > > > Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

> > > >

> > > > What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

> > > >

> > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

> > > >

> > > > Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

> > >

> > > Given how players had a problem with something really easy like Eater of Souls, the LFR version of the Raid would need to be so stupidly easy and a joke encounter anyway.

> >

> > That wasn't the point. The point was that raids could then partake in the story. Casuals can have their joke encounter, but how the story is told, it actually takes a kitten raid to dispatch Lazarus after needing a raid to dispatch his far lesser minions.

> >

> > If it takes a raid to dispatch Xera or Deimos, it should take a raid to dispatch Lazarus or Balthazar or any of the elder dragons. It is such a disservice to dispatch these lore figures on your lonesome in simplistic, one-time encounters.

>

> Lazarus had been separated for a long time and had been damaged when he reformed in GW1 times. At this point he's very weak, which is how you're able to kill him without a raid. Xera has been channeling the power of the Bloodstone and Deimos has been active, even if he's been doing the same thing for 230 years (and may not actually be real).

 

Lazarus was enough of a threat that a faction of the White Mantle wanted him resurrected, and he was only weakened while his aspects were spread. He trivially choked Livia, who was empowered with the scepter of Orr.

 

If someone like Sabetha or a giant sloth can be a raid boss, so can the last living and most powerful mursaat.

 

And the post you quoted also very specifically mentioned a freaking god who was winning the battle against Krakaltorrik, who we magically dispatch with a magic sword despite the fact he swatted you like a gnat in two previous encounters. Aurene's intervention was silly, he chained that dragon rather trivially beforehand.

 

These big figures deserve better than some one-off story instance.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Yossarian.2159 said:

> > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > > > > My problem with lack of an LFR WoW equivalent is that we end up screwing the potential for raid storytelling relevance because since it's inaccessible to a large amount of players, the stories on the raids are always side stories that can't bear importance on the world at large.

> > > > >

> > > > > Look at Lazarus. The entirety of the raid wings was all about the White Mantle. We fought Lazarus's minions, and we were even introduced to the concept of mursaat using demons and all these otherworldly beasts.

> > > > >

> > > > > And what do we get for Lazarus? Not the amazing raid endboss expected after dispatching all his minions in a raid.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope, Lazarus is relevated to being easily defeated by a solo player on a story instance in a joke of an encounter.

> > > > >

> > > > > What a disgraceful way to conclude the story of the mursaat and white mantle.

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine if raid encounters were actually designed for elder dragons, or we battled Balthazar in a raid. It would give it so much more impact than these sad one and done forgotten story instances. And it would make it far more credible as a result.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just imagine the whole Mordremoth story instance fight or an imported Dragon Stand raid. There's so much potential ambiance right there that could be used.

> > > >

> > > > Given how players had a problem with something really easy like Eater of Souls, the LFR version of the Raid would need to be so stupidly easy and a joke encounter anyway.

> > >

> > > That wasn't the point. The point was that raids could then partake in the story. Casuals can have their joke encounter, but how the story is told, it actually takes a kitten raid to dispatch Lazarus after needing a raid to dispatch his far lesser minions.

> > >

> > > If it takes a raid to dispatch Xera or Deimos, it should take a raid to dispatch Lazarus or Balthazar or any of the elder dragons. It is such a disservice to dispatch these lore figures on your lonesome in simplistic, one-time encounters.

> >

> > Lazarus had been separated for a long time and had been damaged when he reformed in GW1 times. At this point he's very weak, which is how you're able to kill him without a raid. Xera has been channeling the power of the Bloodstone and Deimos has been active, even if he's been doing the same thing for 230 years (and may not actually be real).

>

> Lazarus was enough of a threat that a faction of the White Mantle wanted him resurrected, and he was only weakened while his aspects were spread. He trivially choked Livia, who was empowered with the scepter of Orr.

>

> If someone like Sabetha or a giant sloth can be a raid boss, so can the last living and most powerful mursaat.

>

> And the post you quoted also very specifically mentioned a freaking god who was winning the battle against Krakaltorrik, who we magically dispatch with a magic sword despite the fact he swatted you like a gnat in two previous encounters. Aurene's intervention was silly, he chained that dragon rather trivially beforehand.

>

> These big figures deserve better than some one-off story instance.

 

It's a decision made long ago. If you remember, "For Victory or Death" used to be a dungeon and require 5 players. Players were unhappy with that, so ANet decided to go with solo story.

 

And by the way, don't mix personal story and raids. It's a different story, with different characters. We're not the Commander in raids, we're just a party of adventurers. Because of that, you can't directly compare feats of strength in one to the other.

[Isanox.3498]

> @"Crystal Reid.2481" said:

> New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

>

> We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

>

> I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

 

Wow, I can't believe Anet simply ignores 90% of the playerbase. Story should be open to all, not just an elite few. You really have quite an elitist game, and it's what has made me quit in the past. Sad that you simply haven't learned that players want to play their way, not that way you want them to. People have real lives. This is just a game. and the hundreds if not thousands of hours of worked needed to raid is not for the vast majority of people.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

GW2 is literally a cookie clicker of MMOs at the moment. The only elitist part that there is left is a monthly AT on EU.