This Condi Meta...

[Windler.4815]

> @Silv.9207 said:

> 3. End boon conversion to condition damage

>

> Boons that grant condition damage are aegis, retalation, regeneration and vigor. How much of them you see in game? Maybe regeneration, but corrupt a boon grant you a single stack of that condition (3 for bleed and confusion), totally unable to grant you any kind of advantage in terms of damage.

> The best thing to corrupt is Stability, Resistance and Regeneration to inflict fear, Chill and Poison, things that are hugely appreciated even by a Power build.

 

If it wasn't a primary aspect for condition damage they wouldn't make an entire upcoming specialization out of it. See Scourge.

[MachineManXX.9746]

> @mistsim.2748 said:

> game is unplayable currently due to condi bomb spam. you basically cant play builds that dont have multiple condi wipes, which completely cripples build diversity. this is why we're seeing cancer like Mender druids and Ventari revs running around. I'm in high plat and I absolutely hate the game. these builds dont get less prevalent as we go up the mmr, as some people are trying to argue. people tend to min-max at this level, so it's outright silly to not spam condis to win. yes there are a handful of viable power builds, but man the build diversity is the worst it's ever been that's for sure. I played my Mender druid for a few weeks and I want to delete him / play something else because spamming heals and condi wipes just to hold the point bores me to tears. PoF certainly won't make things any better.

 

Mender druid is cancer? Game is unplayabe? Lol, exaggerate much? You invalidate your entire post with such hyperbole.

[Omcrazy.4756]

> @Phantom.5389 said:

> You just validate what Omcrazy and I were saying. Nowhere did we say that conditions were ''overpowered'' in SPvP, just that it invalidate too many builds.

>

> Hammer on guardian is one of those weapon that is a standalone great weapon against condition where you you can self cleanse through blast finisher on a very short CD (and guardian is one of the class that even without specing for it, gain access to a low CD cleanse on F2 which you can refresh with ultimate if things go south) For sure now you can go with minimal condi cleanse utilities if you would like. But even then you still pick up smite condition (which I agree is one of the best aoe instant burst damage skill where you get extra condi cleanse on top, but I'm pretty sure no one would pick this skill even if it gave a 5.5k average burst but no condi cleanse instead of 3.5k average + condi cleanse).

>

> I got to admit that I love this build since this is almost my WvW setup whenever I plan to play my hammer guardian... But this build seems to be the hidden unicorn since everything else I see on metabattle does not have the same luck.

>

> Looking at metabattle and I barely see any offensive utilities, its all condi cleanse and those who use offensive tools are usually the condition users for the most part.

>

> I just feel like the balance was much better before HoT. You had much more freedom when it came to the choice of your utilities.

>

> Anyway, SPvP folks only got the mild version of condition builds since TB/Dire is banned from PvP along with the runes/sigils that complement those builds. We will probably never see those builds in the same light since we got our bias.

>

> I wish you a good PvP experience nonetheless while I go back to my WvW roaming hoping I find decent duelers who follow the old ways (old school power builds).

 

My point was that you are not building as some kind of condi cleansing bot with no damage as was suggested. Yes, you have to spec to protect yourself from conditions, just like you spec to protect yourself from power bursts (adding toughness, taking valk or marauder instead of berserker, engineer gyro, invul ult that, etc). But you are still building for damage unless you are bunker (which is anti condi AND anti power).

 

I see it different. Looking at metabattle I see builds that make a point of choosing utilities and traits to find an ideal balance between offense and defense, often picking ones that give both. Elixir gun on engineer, for instance. Yes, it brings valuable condi cleansing but it also brings regular healing (which would be desirable in a pure power setting) and damagae/support. I see Engi bring Purge gyro (speccing as a condi cleansing machine) but also bringing bulwark gyro (specifically anti-power). I see Ranger bringing "Protect Me" (anti-power) and Signet of Stone (anti-power).

 

In the end, builds focus on balancing defensive skills/traits with offensive skills/traits. I agree that pvp builds focus on defensive utilities a lot, I disagree that it is purely due to conditions being overpowered.

 

Personally, I think having condition builds improves build diversity. Many classes have both effective power and condi builds (some more so than others) and classes need to make a conscious choice on how much defense to bring (and what type, condi or power) and when to bring more offense (or if something can be used for both like Smite Condition). It also increases the skill ceiling in spvp by requiring players to have builds that take both damage sources into account (if you nerf condi then condi will just be ignored) while maintaining their damage output and managing their condi cleanses (instead of just blowing everything immediately).

 

Now, I am not saying that all builds are perfectly balanced. There may be certain condi builds that are OP that need to be toned down. But that doesn't mean conditions are broken overall.

 

These posts talk about wanting more build diversity but I actually think they want less. Players complaining about needing to worry about condi cleanse want to be able to ignore conditions so it isn't even part of their build so they can just go even more damage. They want to play glass cannon builds without worrying about being squishy.

 

 

[Vitali.5039]

> @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> These posts talk about wanting more build diversity but I actually think they want less. Players complaining about needing to worry about condi cleanse want to be able to ignore conditions so it isn't even part of their build so they can just go even more damage. They want to play glass cannon builds without worrying about being squishy.

 

^ You are right but not everyone can handle the truth

 

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I'd actually like to play purely offensive without feeling glass cannon. We almost are forced to bring defensive traits and utilities. Celestial ammy seemed to help in this area of diversity some.

[SuperKorean.7345]

LOL

 

If Condi damage gets nerfed , do you know what's gonna happen next ?

 

Let me give you one example =

 

When I play bunker Druid or bunker Tempest , all my traits and skills are focused around removing Condi

 

If Condi damage gets nerfed , do you know what I am gonna do ?

 

I am gonna go for Anti-Power damage build with lotta protection and lotta weakness.

 

The reason why we Bunkers are killable is because we bunkers must choose between Anti-Power / Anti-Condi

 

If we Bunkers go Anti-Condi , we get killed by Power damage

 

If we Bunkers go Anti-Power , we get killed by Condi damage

 

If we Bunkers mix Anti-Condi + Anti-Power , we are Jack of all trades, master of none

 

If Condi damage gets nerfed , this means we bunker players do not have to worry about Condi damage

 

If Condi damage gets nerfed , this means we bunker players can go Full-Anti-Power

 

We bunkers will not bring any Anti-Condi traits

 

We bunkers will not bring any Anti-Condi skills

 

We bunkers will go FULL-Anti-Power

 

We bunkers will take FULL-Anti-Power traits with Cavalier / Knight / Demolisher / Paladin Amulet

 

What are you gonna whine about next ? Whine about bunker builds ? Ask for bunker nerf ?

 

1. You cry and whine about Condi damage

 

2. Condi damage get Nerfed

 

3. Bunkers do not have to worry about removing Condis anymore

 

4. Bunkers start to kick your behind because Bunkers can go Full-Anti-Power instead of going Anti-Condi

 

5. You cry and whine about Anti-Power Bunker builds

 

6. Anti-Power Bunker build get Nerfed

 

7. Everyone plays Power damage Assassin ONLY , because Power damage Assassin is the only viable build now

 

8. RIP diversity

 

 

Is that what you are asking for ? Are you sure that you really want this to happen ?

 

LOL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Razor.6392]

There's no condi meta but I agree with all of your points. It is way easier to apply random conditions than it is to clear them.

[Aeolus.3615]

@SuperKorean.7345 ur wrong

 

if condi damage gets nerfed (NOT in damage but in spam, some conditions could be transformed as hex effect), Anet will over it with Hexes and armor ignoring skills...

 

 

[SuperKorean.7345]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> @SuperKorean.7345 ur wrong

>

> if condi damage gets nerfed (NOT in damage but in spam, some conditions could be transformed as hex effect), Anet will over it with Hexes and armor ignoring skills...

>

>

 

1. You cry and whine about Condi damage

 

2. Condi damage get Nerfed

 

3. Bunkers do not have to worry about removing Condis anymore

 

4. Bunkers start to kick your behind because Bunkers can go Full-Anti-Power instead of going Anti-Condi

 

5. You cry and whine about Anti-Power Bunker builds

 

6. Hex effect and Armor ignoring skills are added

 

7. Everyone plays Armor ignoring Hex effect build ONLY , because Armor ignoring Hex effect build is the only viable build now

 

8. RIP diversity

 

[Phantom.5389]

> @Omcrazy.4756 said:

> > @Phantom.5389 said:

> > You just validate what Omcrazy and I were saying. Nowhere did we say that conditions were ''overpowered'' in SPvP, just that it invalidate too many builds.

> >

> > Hammer on guardian is one of those weapon that is a standalone great weapon against condition where you you can self cleanse through blast finisher on a very short CD (and guardian is one of the class that even without specing for it, gain access to a low CD cleanse on F2 which you can refresh with ultimate if things go south) For sure now you can go with minimal condi cleanse utilities if you would like. But even then you still pick up smite condition (which I agree is one of the best aoe instant burst damage skill where you get extra condi cleanse on top, but I'm pretty sure no one would pick this skill even if it gave a 5.5k average burst but no condi cleanse instead of 3.5k average + condi cleanse).

> >

> > I got to admit that I love this build since this is almost my WvW setup whenever I plan to play my hammer guardian... But this build seems to be the hidden unicorn since everything else I see on metabattle does not have the same luck.

> >

> > Looking at metabattle and I barely see any offensive utilities, its all condi cleanse and those who use offensive tools are usually the condition users for the most part.

> >

> > I just feel like the balance was much better before HoT. You had much more freedom when it came to the choice of your utilities.

> >

> > Anyway, SPvP folks only got the mild version of condition builds since TB/Dire is banned from PvP along with the runes/sigils that complement those builds. We will probably never see those builds in the same light since we got our bias.

> >

> > I wish you a good PvP experience nonetheless while I go back to my WvW roaming hoping I find decent duelers who follow the old ways (old school power builds).

>

> My point was that you are not building as some kind of condi cleansing bot with no damage as was suggested. Yes, you have to spec to protect yourself from conditions, just like you spec to protect yourself from power bursts (adding toughness, taking valk or marauder instead of berserker, engineer gyro, invul ult that, etc). But you are still building for damage unless you are bunker (which is anti condi AND anti power).

>

> I see it different. Looking at metabattle I see builds that make a point of choosing utilities and traits to find an ideal balance between offense and defense, often picking ones that give both. Elixir gun on engineer, for instance. Yes, it brings valuable condi cleansing but it also brings regular healing (which would be desirable in a pure power setting) and damagae/support. I see Engi bring Purge gyro (speccing as a condi cleansing machine) but also bringing bulwark gyro (specifically anti-power). I see Ranger bringing "Protect Me" (anti-power) and Signet of Stone (anti-power).

>

> In the end, builds focus on balancing defensive skills/traits with offensive skills/traits. I agree that pvp builds focus on defensive utilities a lot, I disagree that it is purely due to conditions being overpowered.

>

> Personally, I think having condition builds improves build diversity. Many classes have both effective power and condi builds (some more so than others) and classes need to make a conscious choice on how much defense to bring (and what type, condi or power) and when to bring more offense (or if something can be used for both like Smite Condition). It also increases the skill ceiling in spvp by requiring players to have builds that take both damage sources into account (if you nerf condi then condi will just be ignored) while maintaining their damage output and managing their condi cleanses (instead of just blowing everything immediately).

>

> Now, I am not saying that all builds are perfectly balanced. There may be certain condi builds that are OP that need to be toned down. But that doesn't mean conditions are broken overall.

>

> These posts talk about wanting more build diversity but I actually think they want less. Players complaining about needing to worry about condi cleanse want to be able to ignore conditions so it isn't even part of their build so they can just go even more damage. They want to play glass cannon builds without worrying about being squishy.

>

>

 

I will agree with you on many aspects of what you have said. I'm in no way telling Anet to remove all conditions builds and nerf it to the ground. Simply balance certain builds that are too easy for the reward it gives. I remember when we had support guardian, support ele, medi guard (GS or hammer variant), fresh air ele, D/D ele or D/F variant, when we had hammer/GS warrior or Axe+shield/GS warrior along with LB/GS warrior... LB ranger along with condi trapper ranger, when we had power shatter mesmer and condition mesmer, when we had grenade (power) engineer and pistol engineer (condition)... etc.

 

I prefered the diverity from those days if you ask me. Yes condition builds were usually capped to one or two condition user per team because no one wanted to overlap each others conditions, but they were not weak by any means.

 

I still hope that Anet improve on their balance according to the game mode you play. In WvW we got some utterly broken conditions builds, in SPvP I would say it is a lot more balanced while in PVE some folks claim X builds need more damage.... thus we get a patch where X build gets buffed for PVE reasons and since they wont split WvW from PVE, we get some ridiculous builds out there. SPvP folks are quite lucky if you ask me.

[Zania.8461]

Meta discussion is fun. Balance is always a tough beast to tackle. Remember that while there is an ability splits between modes, they aren't making skills completely different, so one has to balance accordingly. Now to the points.

 

1. I am not sure that the conditions are overtuned. And the gimmick builds were around way before conditions became useful. There is little difference between being ganked by a burn guard and by a full zerk guard that catches you unaware. I am not saying that some of those gimmick builds aren't annoying but what did you expect? For a thief to facetank people? They aren't very good at it, so they either use evade frames, run or spike damage you. And people for some reason don't like ANY of those.

 

2. The whole point of condi mitigation is condition removal. Yes it is not equivalent to direct damage defenses, but does it have to be? Condi clear negates all the damage that would be applied by the condition and is an active response. Toughness and to an extend boons reduce incoming damage and are largely passive.

 

3. There needs to be a mechanic that offers counterplay to heavy buff builds. I remember the good old days of cele eles pooping boons like SAB clouds pooping rainbows. Simple removal is not always sufficient as a lot of classes can reapply them immediately. This is part of the reason why boon conversion is a good thing.

 

4. There is an equal if not worse creep in power damage. The big reason for the giant jump in condi damage was because it was completely and utterly useless with exception of a few gimmick builds before. Now we have finally reached a state close to parity between the damage types. Yes, there is a danger of going too far in condi damage duration, but I really don't feel like we got there yet.

 

So yes, I feel that the meta has shifted from exclusively power builds with condi builds being largely relegated to gimmicks to a more balanced condi/power balance. Is it perfect? No, but that is always a work in progress.

[DaShi.1368]

I've been playing a Power Rev this season with condi clear only on staff and one weapon swap, and I'm about an average player. Yet, I've not had any greater problems with conditions than I have with power builds. I do approach condi builds differently than power builds, but I also approach different classes differently. Yes, a few builds appear to be overperforming (S/D condi thief, D/D condi thief, and Vent Rev. The former two which are where I believe most of the complaints come from), but conditions aren't the main reason those builds are OP. It's that they combine certain abilities that weren't designed for today's conditions.

[Azure.8926]

Can we also mention the ratio of condi application to condi removal is completely lopsided and that Condition Builds have more luxury stat choices than Power where it needs 2~3 stats to be effective where as Condition realistically only needs a single stat as well as them being able to cover majorly damaging conditions from being removed.

[gebrechen.5643]

I'm just a gold noob, but I prefer playing power necro over condi this season (same as last season). It's imho the far better option for necros in spvp at the moment.

[Vitali.5039]

I play mender reaper to help with group cleanse and heal/downed support.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> There's no condi meta but I agree with all of your points. It is way easier to apply random conditions than it is to clear them.

That's... kind of the point, if you couldn't do that conditions would be completely unviable because they'd never kill anyone.

[Pvt Frosty.6973]

It's funny that the last tournament was won by a team with 0 condi classes yet it appears to be running rampant in lower tiers.

 

Personally I don't think it warrants nerfing, in fact I wouldn't even know how to nerf one end of the spectrum without nerfing the other :o

[Burnfall.9573]

Interesting, this reminds me of this thread: "Balancing classes for conditions"

 

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/archive/balance/Balancing-classes-for-conditions/first

[Phantom.5389]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> Interesting, this reminds me of this thread: "Balancing classes for conditions"

>

> https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/archive/balance/Balancing-classes-for-conditions/first

 

This reminds me of the good old day when we could troll around with Firework before Anet banned Firework from WvW >_>

''Its one thing for Fireworks to come Green, but adding Blue AND Red is simply overpowered. It boggles my mind how imbalanced this weapon is.''

 

 

Basically we still got the same situation. PVE folks wants dmg buff, WvW folks call for a nerf on a few broken condition builds and SPvP folks are divided on what they should think.

[Silv.9207]

> @Windler.4815 said:

> > @Silv.9207 said:

> > 3. End boon conversion to condition damage

> >

> > Boons that grant condition damage are aegis, retalation, regeneration and vigor. How much of them you see in game? Maybe regeneration, but corrupt a boon grant you a single stack of that condition (3 for bleed and confusion), totally unable to grant you any kind of advantage in terms of damage.

> > The best thing to corrupt is Stability, Resistance and Regeneration to inflict fear, Chill and Poison, things that are hugely appreciated even by a Power build.

>

> If it wasn't a primary aspect for condition damage they wouldn't make an entire upcoming specialization out of it. See Scourge.

 

Look to Scourge skills before talk...

Scourge skills don't Corrupt but Convert Boons into Cripple+Torment. Yes, the description is "corrupt" but ANet add a "in Torment+Cirrple" and that mean that you don't convert boons in they're respective contitions but in Torment and Cripple. And that's a Totally Different Thing!

You will not corrupt random boons into "useless" conditions but you corrupt boons into Torment. (and cripple, just to add something to make torment harder to clean and give a "sense" to the total lack of defensive skills).

That may be a power up on the damage of that kind of role, but also grant different problems like: I want to corrupt stability into fear and I can't! Or might into weakness, hoping to reduce by a little the enemy dps. Or regeneration into poison to make an ele killable. Things like that, that become impossible using the scourge utility skills.

Convert grant better damage, but corrupt grant better control and team support. They're two totally different things.

 

Maybe the scourge can corrupt better because can use Shades to corrupt, but that's also true that that need a trait to be done and can be done 3 times every x seconds, not the best boon corruption ever.

And in sPvP a reason to corrupt boons for a high amount may be the use of "Feed From Corruption" that grant you all the boons corrupted/removed/converted and grant you a sort of passive defensive ability granting you all the boons that you're unable to obtain alone. But work really bad with the actual meta because there's only few builds now, and there will be even lesser with PoF, that rely on boons to kill you or can be stopped obtainind some kind of boons like Protection, Swiftness or Resistance. Maybe will grant you a second more, but nothing more than that. The burst meta will kill you anyway, with or without boons.

 

Also, Necromancers are losing step by step they're corruption builds to focus more into Damage builds. But Corrupt is the only thing we're really able to do atm and we keep some corruption to be able to corrupt stability and face few boon spammer builds. Just to be useful to the team in some way.

 

Atm there's not so much difference in how much corrupt a boon is useful between a Power or Condition build. Maybe a condition build will obtain more damage corrupting regeneration into poison but how much damage will you obtain by poison...?

The only way corrupt boons benefit more a condition build than a power one may be that spamming more different random conditions on the enemy make harder for him to clean all your Damaging conditions, granting you a better window of damage. No other reason at all.

 

Anyway, no one is really happy about the corruption/conversion ability of the Scourge because we're struck in that damned role since before HoT and totally don't need more corruption ability. We need more Real damage output and we obtain a "corrupt a single boon to inflict 2 stack of Torment for 4 sec + 2 sec Cripple", it's not a real answer to our problem.

 

Corrupt/Convert is useless in PvE and always lesser effective in sPvP. We need a new role, not a rework of our old one.

I hoped to obtain a totally different role with the scourge. We had a great chance to change a little our playstyle and we lost it into another corruption role... yeah, ANet is magic.

[Windler.4815]

> @Silv.9207 said:

> > @Windler.4815 said:

> > > @Silv.9207 said:

> > > 3. End boon conversion to condition damage

> > >

> > > Boons that grant condition damage are aegis, retalation, regeneration and vigor. How much of them you see in game? Maybe regeneration, but corrupt a boon grant you a single stack of that condition (3 for bleed and confusion), totally unable to grant you any kind of advantage in terms of damage.

> > > The best thing to corrupt is Stability, Resistance and Regeneration to inflict fear, Chill and Poison, things that are hugely appreciated even by a Power build.

> >

> > If it wasn't a primary aspect for condition damage they wouldn't make an entire upcoming specialization out of it. See Scourge.

>

> Look to Scourge skills before talk...

 

It's doing more condi damage than condi reaper... Must I go on? Or you still think you know more?