Get rid of Scourge blind and weakness

[EnidLarr.1478]

> @Flauvious.6195 said:

> Why does scourge need every condition in the game? They already melt you in seconds, do they really need perma weakness, blind and cripple to make it that much harder to kill them before the endless bleeds and burns kill you?

 

you want them cry again and nerf everything else but their scourge?

[OriOri.8724]

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Turk.5460 said:

> > > > @KrHome.1920 said:

> > > > Scourge uses the same weakness mechanics like Reaper (Might Corruption and Curses Traitline). If you nerf that you kill Reaper completely as its sustain is already low. Reaper relies on Weakness. It's one of its main defense mechanics!

> > > >

> > > > I am really sick of these incompetent postings with ideas that would just make everything worse.

> > > >

> > > > Crinn made a good suggestion: Remove the F-skill AOE around the Scourge itself. To be honest I never understood why the Scourge counts as a shade itself. If he wants to go melee he shall put a kitten shade at his feet.

> > >

> > > Might being converted into 10 seconds of Weakness is still ridiculous. This needs to be cut in half *at least*.

> >

> > I don't know how feasible it is, but I rather like an idea I saw on the forums to have the duration of the weakness be dependent on the # of might stacks. Say 2 seconds base, +0.5 seconds for each stack of might after the first? So 5 stacks would give you 4s weakness, a full 25stacks would convert to 14s weakness.

>

> How is 14s of a condition that destroys it's targets power damage potential almost completely and inflicted from a single skill sound balanced to you lol, how much damage does 25 might add compared to how much damage weakness takes away? Is that fair?

>

> Do I even need to mention that scourge has effectively infinite corrupts with how low the CDs are and how many they have? *Instant cast AoE corrupts.* Removed Equilibrium probably because some Dev got one shot by a power AoE single hit burst, so let's scrap that and give Condi AoE instant cast spam to necros instead!

 

Corruption spam is not the issue of this thread, and it is something that needs to be looked into. Besides, it makes sense for a corruption to be more dangerous if it corrupts more stacks of the boon. That's just simple logic. For most builds in PvP, this would be a nerf to corrupting might, since you would need to be able to stack 17 might before the corruption would give you 10s of weakness.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Turk.5460 said:

> > > > > @KrHome.1920 said:

> > > > > Scourge uses the same weakness mechanics like Reaper (Might Corruption and Curses Traitline). If you nerf that you kill Reaper completely as its sustain is already low. Reaper relies on Weakness. It's one of its main defense mechanics!

> > > > >

> > > > > I am really sick of these incompetent postings with ideas that would just make everything worse.

> > > > >

> > > > > Crinn made a good suggestion: Remove the F-skill AOE around the Scourge itself. To be honest I never understood why the Scourge counts as a shade itself. If he wants to go melee he shall put a kitten shade at his feet.

> > > >

> > > > Might being converted into 10 seconds of Weakness is still ridiculous. This needs to be cut in half *at least*.

> > >

> > > I don't know how feasible it is, but I rather like an idea I saw on the forums to have the duration of the weakness be dependent on the # of might stacks. Say 2 seconds base, +0.5 seconds for each stack of might after the first? So 5 stacks would give you 4s weakness, a full 25stacks would convert to 14s weakness.

> >

> > How is 14s of a condition that destroys it's targets power damage potential almost completely and inflicted from a single skill sound balanced to you lol, how much damage does 25 might add compared to how much damage weakness takes away? Is that fair?

> >

> > Do I even need to mention that scourge has effectively infinite corrupts with how low the CDs are and how many they have? *Instant cast AoE corrupts.* Removed Equilibrium probably because some Dev got one shot by a power AoE single hit burst, so let's scrap that and give Condi AoE instant cast spam to necros instead!

>

> Corruption spam is not the issue of this thread, and it is something that needs to be looked into. Besides, it makes sense for a corruption to be more dangerous if it corrupts more stacks of the boon. That's just simple logic. For most builds in PvP, this would be a nerf to corrupting might, since you would need to be able to stack 17 might before the corruption would give you 10s of weakness.

 

But corruption spam is the issue of the thread?

 

How else are scourges able to spam blind and weakness? Like the Crinn says above, they only have 2 sources, 1 being corruption which is available like candy now. Corruption is already too rewarding for how low of a CD and how easy it is to hit. The weakness conversion does NOT need a rework like that in which it gets a buff under the right circumstances (> 17 might), a simple nerf is needed. I'd consider it if it was capped at the current 10s weakness for 25 might.

[Rym.1469]

Blind comes entirely from corrupting fury, not from Necromancer per se. At least not in the most builds you see.

 

Unrivaled access to Weakness is one of the core aspects of Necromancer and has always been the core tool for dealing with Power classes. Weakning Shroud weakness on crit proc could be moved to harder condition (not weakness on crit, but weakness on/after weapon swap, for example), but the fact is that most of the weakness you see is, in fact, just corrupted might.

 

I'm all for nerfing Scourge's damage and buffing it's support options in exchange, for example, or making Scourge's corruptions more limited/boon-specific, but don't take away what makes Necro a Necro from the class in an attempt to do it.

 

If we are to nerf Scourge, I'd start from removing Sand Savant (Big Shade) trait from the game entirely. With no singular shades covering whole points, Scourge gets a bit less braindead and easier to counter. Plus, there would be a space for support trait in place of training wheels one.

[Cynz.9437]

Give scourge same treatment as thief gets (because Anet deemed it fair and justified): for each corrupted boon scourge can't gain life force for xx seconds.

Each time scourge misses xx spell it gets locked from shades for xx seconds.

I think it is time other classes also get punished for picking certain traits and missing an attack, just like a thief :)

[flow.6043]

People said it already, corrupting might and fury into weakness and blindness isn't any more frequent or potent on scourges than it was before PoF.

However, you never saw as many necros per team as you do now, so my guess is that people frequently run into 2+ scourges and then complain about the amount of corrupted boons, as if a single scourge could do what 2 reapers or core necros could already do before.

 

Weakness duration is probably due for an upgrade though.

Most scourges run a deadshot amulet and get another 225 expertise with Sand Soul, that means corrupted might usually turns into 15 seconds of weakness, not just 10. Not sure if cutting that duration in half would actually matter, but it would be a start.

 

Also, I'm happy whenever I see a scourge on the other team run Weakening Shroud. It means they don't have any healing except for their main heal, which makes them about as glassy as it gets. Scourges with Parasitic Bond or Blood Magic are much harder to fight.

 

As for the cast time on Shade skills arguments. I think they should all stay instant casts, at least the defensive part has to.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> Give scourge same treatment as thief gets (because Anet deemed it fair and justified): for each corrupted boon scourge can't gain life force for xx seconds.

> Each time scourge misses xx spell it gets locked from shades for xx seconds.

> I think it is time other classes also get punished for picking certain traits and missing an attack, just like a thief :)

 

I would gladly accept the thief treament in each class

''If you miss your Burn (Backstab) in stealth you dont get reveleaved , and you can try again :P

[Cynz.9437]

> @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > Give scourge same treatment as thief gets (because Anet deemed it fair and justified): for each corrupted boon scourge can't gain life force for xx seconds.

> > Each time scourge misses xx spell it gets locked from shades for xx seconds.

> > I think it is time other classes also get punished for picking certain traits and missing an attack, just like a thief :)

>

> I would gladly accept the thief treament in each class

> ''If you miss your Burn (Backstab) in stealth you dont get reveleaved , and you can try again :P

 

Um.... you don't get revealed if you miss with attack on any class. What is your point?

[Ravezaar.4951]

Getting rid of the Weakness thats a Curses trait (GM) thats bin there all the way seems fair, any more bright ideas ? cause Core necros and Reapers are so strong already. Everyday there is some new player that needs some l2p whining about something. These Forums are a joke nowdays, hell even worse then reddit maybe adress this Anet ?

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

 

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

> > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > Give scourge same treatment as thief gets (because Anet deemed it fair and justified): for each corrupted boon scourge can't gain life force for xx seconds.

> > > Each time scourge misses xx spell it gets locked from shades for xx seconds.

> > > I think it is time other classes also get punished for picking certain traits and missing an attack, just like a thief :)

> >

> > I would gladly accept the thief treament in each class

> > ''If you miss your Burn (Backstab) in stealth you dont get reveleaved , and you can try again :P

>

> Um.... you don't get revealed if you miss with attack on any class. What is your point?

 

What is your point my dear thief , telling him that missing a spell should be punished like Thiefs .....

when a thief dont get punish at all for missing a major attack ?

 

 

[Vague Memory.2817]

Actually I find cripple is the worst as it slows you down so you stay in there corruption aura, and if you you are out of mobility skills, you just die. Certain conditions should not go together. Every match has 2 scourges on at least one team, same was true of broken DH for HoT. Anet stays true to form..bad form.

[Cynz.9437]

> @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

>

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

> > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > Give scourge same treatment as thief gets (because Anet deemed it fair and justified): for each corrupted boon scourge can't gain life force for xx seconds.

> > > > Each time scourge misses xx spell it gets locked from shades for xx seconds.

> > > > I think it is time other classes also get punished for picking certain traits and missing an attack, just like a thief :)

> > >

> > > I would gladly accept the thief treament in each class

> > > ''If you miss your Burn (Backstab) in stealth you dont get reveleaved , and you can try again :P

> >

> > Um.... you don't get revealed if you miss with attack on any class. What is your point?

>

> What is your point my dear thief , telling him that missing a spell should be punished like Thiefs .....

> when a thief dont get punish at all for missing a major attack ?

>

>

Thief does get punished for missing attack. He gets CD on AA. Not other class is locked out of AA but thief if they miss their class mechanic.

Stealth is also requirement for stealth attacks and runs out in most cases before you can attempt to execute stealth attack second time. Stealth is in 99% cases is not free and is bound to resources and CDs. So you lose those as well.

 

My point is, if Anet thinks it is fair to lock a class from AA and punish them for picking certain trait then other classes should get similar treatment.

 

> @"Vague Memory.2817" said:

> Actually I find cripple is the worst as it slows you down so you stay in there corruption aura, and if you you are out of mobility skills, you just die. Certain conditions should not go together. Every match has 2 scourges on at least one team, same was true of broken DH for HoT. Anet stays true to form..bad form.

 

Actually, necros were initially build around big fights and battle of attrition. It is fine for them to have blinds and cripple because they are themselves are pretty immobile. Problem is how scourge was implemented. The spec in current form is just too strong and most importantly too rewarding for little to no effort and there are plenty of threads with suggestions how it could be addressed.

Sadly, nothing will be probably done until enough PoF copies are sold.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

When the AA does 6-7k , and the skills to do it is pitiful , then they should implant it to the other clasese too P

 

Does this mean you aknowleghe that thief dont get punished like other games , that reveal you when you FAILED to do something ? :P

[Cynz.9437]

> @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

> When the AA does 6-7k , and the skills to do it is pitiful , then they should implant it to the other clasese too P

>

> Does this mean you aknowleghe that thief dont get punished like other games , that reveal you when you FAILED to do something ? :P

 

Show me AA dealing 6-7k.

Also,

- what is "too P"?

- what is "clasese"?

- what is "aknowleghe "?

- what is "dont"?

 

Which games are we talking about here?

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

How can any scourge even complain about thief in this meta lol, between scourge and thief which class is safer to stack 2 of on a team? Does a team with no thief vs a team with thief face as big of a disadvantage as a team with no scourge vs a team with a scourge?

[Velimere.7685]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> How can any scourge even complain about thief in this meta lol, between scourge and thief which class is safer to stack 2 of on a team? Does a team with no thief vs a team with thief face as big of a disadvantage as a team with no scourge vs a team with a scourge?

 

What if both Scourges are using Blood Magic instead of Curses?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Use a ranger or thief, you'll never have a problem with scourge again.

>

> Rock/Paper/Scissors my friend. Stop trying to attack scissors with paper, go get yourself a rock.

 

Soft counters make sense, but hard counters are bad for any competitive game.

 

 

[Despond.2174]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> How can any scourge even complain about thief in this meta lol, between scourge and thief which class is safer to stack 2 of on a team? Does a team with no thief vs a team with thief face as big of a disadvantage as a team with no scourge vs a team with a scourge?

 

It's amazing people can complain about thief when it's not really even top tier spvp meta anymore - well for d/p at least and DE is a gimmick build. The need for a +1/roamer isn't as important in the current meta and thief is easily the worst class to have dbl stack in a random queue. Like you said, would you want 2 scourges, 2 mirages, 2 holosmiths, 2 druids etc or 2 thieves? There's the answer. 2 thieves against anything semi meta is basically an instant loss unless your enemy has a d/c or somehow they are a lot less experienced than your side. Even if you get ONE thief, they have to be exceptional otherwise you're a 4vs5, while other classes can be played @ low efficiency and still contribute far more.

 

But back on point, scourge synergizes too strong with OP support like firebrand, that's the biggest issue. It's going to be awkward to balance because there needs to be multiple things adjusted.

[jalmari.3906]

Scourge abilities are just badly planned.

 

It's not ok than one class can deny any melee entering inside cap circle. Coz that's how it basically works, unless you have some very specific setup.

 

Shade skills should not have shroud trait procs or weapon swap procs **coz it does not actally do either**. This would already help a lot.

 

 

 

[Velimere.7685]

> @"jalmari.3906" said:

> Scourge abilities are just badly planned.

>

> It's not ok than one class can deny any melee entering inside cap circle. Coz that's how it basically works, unless you have some very specific setup.

>

> Shade skills should not have shroud trait procs or weapon swap procs **coz it does not actally do either**. This would already help a lot.

>

>

>

 

What if the radius of [sand Savant](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant "Sand Savant") was reduced to 240? It wouldn't you a whole lot of wiggle-room but at least _some_ would exist.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

What do you mean remove Weakness? You think people don't enjoy 30+ sec of weakness, bud?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"jalmari.3906" said:

> Scourge abilities are just badly planned.

>

> It's not ok than one class can deny any melee entering inside cap circle. Coz that's how it basically works, unless you have some very specific setup.

>

> Shade skills should not have shroud trait procs or weapon swap procs **coz it does not actally do either**. This would already help a lot.

>

>

>

 

Shade skills already don't proc weapon swap sigils, and Necromancer has zero weapon swap traits. Not having Shroud trait procs effectively removes a third of the Necromancer's traits, including quite a few Minor traits. For example, Blood Magic and Soul Reaping are the only trait lines without minors that directly rely on Shroud to function. However, Blood Magic loses two of its three Grandmaster traits and a Master trait and Soul Reaping loses all three Grandmasters, plus 2 Minors, and a Master.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> What do you mean remove Weakness? You think people don't enjoy 30+ sec of weakness, bud?

 

I personally don't enjoy that.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

> @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said:

> > What do you mean remove Weakness? You think people don't enjoy 30+ sec of weakness, bud?

>

> I personally don't enjoy that.

 

Bro, you better enjoy those 30sec cuz with the next necro buff you'll be getting 1.3 minute of weakness from two skills.

[Tiborb.1453]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Scourge uses the same weakness mechanics like Reaper (Might Corruption and Curses Traitline). If you nerf that you kill Reaper completely as its sustain is already low. Reaper relies on Weakness. It's one of its main defense mechanics!

>

> I am really sick of these incompetent postings with ideas that would just make everything worse.

>

> Crinn made a good suggestion: Remove the F-skill AOE around the Scourge itself.** To be honest I never understood why the Scourge counts as a shade itself.** If he wants to go melee he shall put a kitten shade at his feet.

 

[This](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shatter "Because of this")

I'm ok with this solution only if they do the same with shatter skills.