About the new fractal

[Feanor.2358]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

 

Because you play it solo, kappa.

 

It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

[Nick.6972]

Can someone please enlighten me on how some people find this fractal to be too long and difficult?

 

I did it few days ago with some random pugs (first time playing it), T4, and we did it on first try. If anything, Fractal seemed a bit too short.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> >

> >

>

> Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

I don't have a problem with any _specific_ mechanic. What i have a problem with is the fact that all new fractals are on a difficulty that's much higher than before - and i don't mean "slightly higher" but "order of magnitude higher". Whether it's increased damage output, hp sponges, aoe spam, cc spam, twitch mechanics giving you split seconds to react, or all of the above, there's just more and more of those. And when you say that's not what you aim for and there will definitely be less difficult new fractals in the future, the next one ends up being the same again. As such, for me introducing any new fractal means only that there's a new one i won't do crowding out the ones i liked from dailies.

 

I already feel bad enough about raids getting introduced to GW2. Having the same mentality getting imported to fractals is just too much.

 

Guild missions are abandoned, dungeons are dead, Raids are... raids, and fractals are on a way to become smallsize raids. There's no longer any group content i might do with my friends and find fun. And that is really painful.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

> I don't have a problem with any _specific_ mechanic. What i have a problem with is the fact that all new fractals are on a difficulty that's much higher than before - and i don't mean "slightly higher" but "order of magnitude higher". Whether it's increased damage output, hp sponges, aoe spam, cc spam, twitch mechanics giving you split seconds to react, or all of the above, there's just more and more of those. And when you say that's not what you aim for and there will definitely be less difficult new fractals in the future, the next one ends up being the same again. As such, for me introducing any new fractal means only that there's a new one i won't do crowding out the ones i liked from dailies.

>

> I already feel bad enough about raids getting introduced to GW2. Having the same mentality getting imported to fractals is just too much.

>

> Guild missions are abandoned, dungeons are dead, Raids are... raids, and fractals are on a way to become smallsize raids. There's no longer any group content i might do with my friends and find fun. And that is really painful.

>

 

Because you can't play lower-tier fractals?

[Zunki.3916]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > > > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > > > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

> > I don't have a problem with any _specific_ mechanic. What i have a problem with is the fact that all new fractals are on a difficulty that's much higher than before - and i don't mean "slightly higher" but "order of magnitude higher". Whether it's increased damage output, hp sponges, aoe spam, cc spam, twitch mechanics giving you split seconds to react, or all of the above, there's just more and more of those. And when you say that's not what you aim for and there will definitely be less difficult new fractals in the future, the next one ends up being the same again. As such, for me introducing any new fractal means only that there's a new one i won't do crowding out the ones i liked from dailies.

> >

> > I already feel bad enough about raids getting introduced to GW2. Having the same mentality getting imported to fractals is just too much.

> >

> > Guild missions are abandoned, dungeons are dead, Raids are... raids, and fractals are on a way to become smallsize raids. There's no longer any group content i might do with my friends and find fun. And that is really painful.

> >

>

> Because you can't play lower-tier fractals?

 

That argument came up a dozen of times but gets ignored. People want to beat the hardest tier with as small effort as possible and they seem to dislike the idea, that there is stuff they can't beat. The solution really seems to make those fractals in T3.

But now while writing about it that may actually not be a lot easier for them, as then they are grouped with similar skilled people and I'd say a T4 frac with 2-4 carries is still easier then a T3 frac with 5 guys that can't take a proper T4 themselves...

But then, if you beat them several times in T2 or T3 then you should finally be able to do it at T4. Give it some time and make the specific fractals on lower tiers and you will be good at one day.

 

I pug only and in no way I would have thought about doing nightmare and observatory on T4 the first time I encountered them, back when I wasn't that good at fractals. Now I consider myself solid on my class and did the new one on a T4 pug the first time and it worked. It's maybe just stupid that both times twilight oasis was on daily it had the defenders in them, which makes stuff a lot harder while learning...

[Faaris.8013]

> @Vinceman.4572 said:

> Some advices: Don't join any sort of "T4 Dailies" without any extra requirements. Your lowest standard should be "Pots + Food"! Pots are cheap so is non-top tier bufffood for around 2-3s everybody can afford. **The difference between a group with pots and food is fricking huge compared to a group without.** These things are well-known since months still people refuse to use them due to either not knowing or dismiss because they think it doesn't matter. That attitude is terrible.

>

> You should also avoid groups with non-optimal/non-meta composition if your char is a squishy meta-based dps class because you often won't survive this without having a healer unless you are very good at the game. Meta is there for a reason and a power tempest doesn't rly fit well into a random group or a bunch of viper necros that outsustain the bosses.

 

Best advice here to be a successful pugger. I mainly play power Daredevil and I'm only as good as the support classes let me be. I once joined and group that had 4 Reapers, I sucked. I don't have to pug often, but when I do, I do it like Vinceman says. When we need a pug, we put up a similar LFG to keep the noobs away. Or we use a sexist requirement instead for the LFG (like "t + b"). I don't know why but we always got good players in our group with this.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Faaris.8013 said:

> > @Vinceman.4572 said:

> > Some advices: Don't join any sort of "T4 Dailies" without any extra requirements. Your lowest standard should be "Pots + Food"! Pots are cheap so is non-top tier bufffood for around 2-3s everybody can afford. **The difference between a group with pots and food is fricking huge compared to a group without.** These things are well-known since months still people refuse to use them due to either not knowing or dismiss because they think it doesn't matter. That attitude is terrible.

> >

> > You should also avoid groups with non-optimal/non-meta composition if your char is a squishy meta-based dps class because you often won't survive this without having a healer unless you are very good at the game. Meta is there for a reason and a power tempest doesn't rly fit well into a random group or a bunch of viper necros that outsustain the bosses.

>

> Best advice here to be a successful pugger. I mainly play power Daredevil and I'm only as good as the support classes let me be. I once joined and group that had 4 Reapers, I sucked. I don't have to pug often, but when I do, I do it like Vinceman says. When we need a pug, we put up a similar LFG to keep the noobs away. Or we use a sexist requirement instead for the LFG (like "t + b"). I don't know why but we always got good players in our group with this.

 

One of the reasons why I rarely play my necro in fractals is because I always end up on a team filled with more necro. It is the most bizarre thing, but for some reason necromancers are attracted to other necromancers. As soon as you get one, you're probably going to get two more. Which is unfortunate, since necromancers are a fairly selfish class. You end up playing next to a bunch of people instead of with them. I, too, ended up on a team with 4 necromancers on my Daredevil, and it was painful. But, it was better than the previous team I was on, which had a power chronomancer who only auto-attacked with the greatsword.

 

The biggest problem I have with doing the new fractal is that everybody else wants to do the new fractal. Even people who generally don't do fractals. On recs day the LFG is filled to the brim with teams of button mashers with poor builds. Druids who aren't healers, chronomancers who aren't buffers, signet rifle warriors, guardians with no stability or aegis, a staggering amount of vanilla engineers, and roaming parties of scourges who use neither epidemic nor corrosive poison cloud. Their traits are a random assortment that makes sense only to them, their utilities are a random assortment that make sense only to them, and their playstyle consists of either exclusively auto attacks or by mashing every key whenever it is off cooldown.

 

Eventually the player resource pool going to dwindle down to fractal frequenters, which will make this a lot easier.

[CancerLord.6138]

Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @CancerLord.6138 said:

> Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

 

Then go to T2 for those fractals that you can't beat in T3.

Fractals have difficulty levels for a reason. Imagine if they only had T4 difficulty...

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @Sojourner.4621 said:

> > @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:

> > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > @"Mister Asdasd.6194" said:

> > > > Nothing like missing 1 of the million aoe attacks and get stunlocked until you get downed which punishes you with the spawn of an OP "avenger" tht wont despawn until killed and doing massive damage. Yeah, now even getting downed is punished, i despise the new fractal and it is another one of those that will make me skip fractal day if i see them in daily tier, i cant be bothered fidning random people who can or can not do the fractal withing a reasonable amount of time. I miss the days when we could ahve a balance and not everything was a mix of Dark souls/God of War/bullethell style fractal

> > >

> > > You can't get stunlocked, since you have an SAS that is a 5 second cooldown stunbreak. Make sure you bind the SAS or it's going to be much more difficult for you.

> >

> > I think this is part of the problem 99% of all people I know used the SAS with clicking in the UID since it was first introduced in Season 2

> >

> > Problem is at least on my keyboard by default it is on the right from the 0(zero). Usually when you play you left hand is for WASD and 1-7 for everything else I need to let go of the mouse which in a action based MMO you want to instinctively avoid. As an Elementist I can go into distance and with some training it is doable but what melee fighters do I don't know ?

> >

> > I also went from wind trait built to arcane just to have more buffer in the fractal.

>

> Rebind it to something closer... And remember that it can be a combination of keys instead of a single button press, allowing you to use a key that is already bound to something else. In my own case, I use Shift+F as my Special Action because it requires no special reaching and SAS often needs quick reactions.

 

I was a bit sarcastic ^^ I did bind it to R I don't need the run function under it more the opposite I did run into something by accidentally pressing it.(if I could bind it to shift+R)

 

What I really meant with this is the localization team and the content programmer seems not have a good communication.

Localization seems to obviously thought this is special key only is used under special circumstances and not constantly during a fight otherwise they wouldn't had bind it to a button which you need to search on your keyboard.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @CancerLord.6138 said:

> Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

 

I did beat Observatory on T3 twice it is a pain (last time yesterday with 2 hours of tries) but doable . The only thing I can give is a small tut on what is difficult:

 

B1: the most problem I see there is with the small AoE's under your feet after the 66% and 33% phase especially guardians and warriors don't expect to eat so much damage (-50% health). The rest is a problem of team play and training.

 

B2: Rebind your SAK if it is out of reach on your keyboard. For the ball phase you can do it in 2 way first 2 players jump with the ball an use the special keys(the CD will reset when you are getting hit from the ball) and rest standing near the boss (because the last hop of the ball can be to short for the hunters) or you standing all around which is much harder. After the ball event you need to doge the large scale AoE . The other way is you know where the ball will hit and you all standing on those positions.(which is much harder to do).

 

B3: This boss get surprisingly hard near 33%. Don't let the AoE which coming from you overlap. The boss out of the chaos fractal like the original CC is a good idea but it also sometimes doesn't work >.< after this Arkk doing some extreme damage so you have to be quick or being able to absorb a lot of damage

 

I could certainly beat Oasis on T3 also after 2 additional hours of tries problem is it is a pain to do it with the next group again to train those guys too. :'(

There problem is also after you are up to the task all other fractal will become boring because in compare they become super easy.

 

I also think those middle guys with no so much damage like an ele and not tanky like a neco have a hard time not only in fractals but also in wvw because of the condi damage there. I think it comes from the fact GW2 isn't a real action MMO but also not a WoW like MMO which let to strange stuff in the defense of those classes.

 

I would properly gave them condi resistance trait and necro swap a bit from life to damage 10-20%. Also do we have a group shield skill ? Never saw something like this in this game.

[Feanor.2358]

> @CancerLord.6138 said:

> Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

 

Let me say that again - Oasis is nowhere near the difficulty of Shattered. There are no complex, punishing mechanics that need to be executed by several people. All it has AOE spam which can be outhealed easily even on T4.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Zunki.3916 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > > > > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > > > > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

> > > I don't have a problem with any _specific_ mechanic. What i have a problem with is the fact that all new fractals are on a difficulty that's much higher than before - and i don't mean "slightly higher" but "order of magnitude higher". Whether it's increased damage output, hp sponges, aoe spam, cc spam, twitch mechanics giving you split seconds to react, or all of the above, there's just more and more of those. And when you say that's not what you aim for and there will definitely be less difficult new fractals in the future, the next one ends up being the same again. As such, for me introducing any new fractal means only that there's a new one i won't do crowding out the ones i liked from dailies.

> > >

> > > I already feel bad enough about raids getting introduced to GW2. Having the same mentality getting imported to fractals is just too much.

> > >

> > > Guild missions are abandoned, dungeons are dead, Raids are... raids, and fractals are on a way to become smallsize raids. There's no longer any group content i might do with my friends and find fun. And that is really painful.

> > >

> >

> > Because you can't play lower-tier fractals?

>

> That argument came up a dozen of times but gets ignored. People want to beat the hardest tier with as small effort as possible and they seem to dislike the idea, that there is stuff they can't beat. The solution really seems to make those fractals in T3.

> But now while writing about it that may actually not be a lot easier for them, as then they are grouped with similar skilled people and I'd say a T4 frac with 2-4 carries is still easier then a T3 frac with 5 guys that can't take a proper T4 themselves...

> But then, if you beat them several times in T2 or T3 then you should finally be able to do it at T4. Give it some time and make the specific fractals on lower tiers and you will be good at one day.

>

> I pug only and in no way I would have thought about doing nightmare and observatory on T4 the first time I encountered them, back when I wasn't that good at fractals. Now I consider myself solid on my class and did the new one on a T4 pug the first time and it worked. It's maybe just stupid that both times twilight oasis was on daily it had the defenders in them, which makes stuff a lot harder while learning...

 

This is because you don't care, don't read what the posts are about, and ultimately refuse to understand what it's about. If you ask me to do content that is twice as difficult and takes 50% longer but only hand me out standard fractal rewards, of course I'm not going to be happy. You don't care about the risk/reward factor. Fine. I do. Why do you care so much?

[Ahlen.7591]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

>

> Because you play it solo, kappa.

>

> It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

 

GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

 

So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

 

Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

 

You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

[Genesis.5169]

I love it, and just because its hard doesn't mean it has to be a raid. Raiding shouldn't be the only place where serious content is please don't try to push anet in the direction of placing hard content in one and only one game mode.

 

Keep up the good work anet big fan of this dungeon, it felt like a real dungeon long but no too long you heard everyones cries during HoT for more dungeon content and your delivering.

 

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> >

> > Because you play it solo, kappa.

> >

> > It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

>

> GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

>

> So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

>

> Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

>

> You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

 

To this post bringing a healer makes it easier you don't need to bring a healer anywhere in fotm if your good enough, if you cannot get past content with out a healer BAR CMs because you should need a healer for those. That's an issue with _your skill_ and nothing more. And idea of pushing other classes out for healers moronic, so your okay with healers being pushed out and tanks being pushed out but my god don't touch the dps, what hypocrisy.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> >

> > Because you play it solo, kappa.

> >

> > It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

>

> GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

>

> So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

>

> Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

>

> You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

 

You can. On lower tiers. Stop pretending all of this game is casual. It's not.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @CancerLord.6138 said:

> > Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

>

> Let me say that again - Oasis is nowhere near the difficulty of Shattered. There are no complex, punishing mechanics that need to be executed by several people. All it has AOE spam which can be outhealed easily even on T4.

 

The problem which he was talking about was T3 which are usually run by random groups with no healer also the amount of player which run them is the thinnest in compare to the other T levels. The thing which Oasis makes easier is it is just 1 Boss but I would say the boss fight is relative long in compare to the older fractals.

 

What really put the people down on those fractals is they have to train long and hard + the length of the fractal which made it full dungeon length and not a fractal anymore . It would be shorter when you the next time having a group knowing everything but this isn't likely not the case .(Only when you have your fixed group)

 

In so far I can understand with the complain it is not rewarding in the sense you don't get a dungeon reward extra(which is nerfed anyway)

 

Also you shouldn't be in the position that you need pre-made groups in T3 . They are more something for T4 CM or Raids otherwise like I said the players will be bored to death in the other content in the fractals after they catch up.

 

Nobody wants to get those fractals removed but let the learning curve be more accessible for players which haven't played T4 cms and Raids.

 

What I forgot to mention is also with this many events on this boss and so many AoE the chance of randomly failing it by chance is increased drastically.

Which means it can be frustrating just by chance , which I think is not really good design.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Self-Improvement essentially the same as "git gud" just a nicer way of saying it. If the content is to difficult go down a scale otherwise keeping trying watch for patterns try different methods ask ppl for help that have completed t3-t4. The worst possible thing to do is keep saying its to hard when a fair amount of ppl don't find it to be so. As for the aoe spam there are multiple ways to deal with it outside of having a healer being stun breaks, stability, blocks, evading and even out right moving back out of melee, a great deal of the attacks have the same patterns as a majority of mobs and Bosses from PoF pay attention to what actually kills ppl even if that means slowing your dps to just skill 1 attacks so you can see whats happening and focus on surviving.

 

Lastly the fractal is just a week old today I believe, give it time for ppl to understand mechanics and actually learn after ramming at it the same way after each wipe. The learning curve for this fractal/s is just right imo I really feel its the player base at this point that needs to start adapting.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @CancerLord.6138 said:

> > > Can you guys stop sending peoples to T3? I am a T3 player and i was able to beat every T3 fractal except Oasis and Observatory. Difficulty of these two fractals is absolutly insane compared to other T3s, these two just dont belong to T3. Those who can't pug these fractals in T4 won't be able to pug them in T3 either.

> >

> > Let me say that again - Oasis is nowhere near the difficulty of Shattered. There are no complex, punishing mechanics that need to be executed by several people. All it has AOE spam which can be outhealed easily even on T4.

>

> The problem which he was talking about was T3 which are usually run by random groups with no healer also the amount of player which run them is the thinnest in compare to the other T levels.

 

So here's a radical thought - play a healer yourself and carry your groups!

[Ahlen.7591]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> > >

> > > Because you play it solo, kappa.

> > >

> > > It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

> >

> > GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

> >

> > So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

> >

> > Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

> >

> > You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

>

> You can. On lower tiers. Stop pretending all of this game is casual. It's not.

 

I can only roll my eyes so much. I and many others have no problems completing this content, it was not challenging compared to content other MMO's provide but was a nice step up from normal GW2 fare. What I and many others are arguing for is that this content can exclude classes, and does not match up to the difficulty:reward ratio of other fractal content.

 

T1, T2, T3, T4, that problem will still persist. People in this thread are just arguing two different points.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @Lalainnia.3598 said:

> Self-Improvement essentially the same as "git gud" just a nicer way of saying it. If the content is to difficult go down a scale otherwise keeping trying watch for patterns try different methods ask ppl for help that have completed t3-t4. The worst possible thing to do is keep saying its to hard when a fair amount of ppl don't find it to be so. As for the aoe spam there are multiple ways to deal with it outside of having a healer being stun breaks, stability, blocks, evading and even out right moving back out of melee, a great deal of the attacks have the same patterns as a majority of mobs and Bosses from PoF pay attention to what actually kills ppl even if that means slowing your dps to just skill 1 attacks so you can see whats happening and focus on surviving.

>

> Lastly the fractal is just a week old today I believe, give it time for ppl to understand mechanics and actually learn after ramming at it the same way after each wipe. The learning curve for this fractal/s is just right imo I really feel its the player base at this point that needs to start adapting.

 

I don't think adding something new will change anyone's mind in this discussion but I find it interesting we have similar complains about WvW and the raids with similar counter answer with : Just learn and adapt .

 

The problem is Observatory and the changes to WvW are already 4 months old. You can either say people are ridiculous slow or you can say Arena NET has thrown too many new things in the game from which maybe some stuff is not working.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> Because you can't play lower-tier fractals?

Suure. First it was "then don't raid". Then it was "don't do fractal CMs". Then it was "don't do t4's (or t3s)". What's next? "then don't play fractals"? "Don't play the game"? It's not like it's an one-time change - it's a process that keeps progressing. And with each new change the game becomes less and less fun.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > Because you can't play lower-tier fractals?

> Suure. First it was "then don't raid". Then it was "don't do fractal CMs". Then it was "don't do t4's (or t3s)". What's next? "then don't play fractals"? "Don't play the game"? It's not like it's an one-time change - it's a process that keeps progressing. And with each new change the game becomes less and less fun.

>

>

 

It becomes more and more fun for me. Ultimately - yeah, if you dislike a specific content, then don't play it. It's that simple. The game is big, and it has features targeted at all kinds of players. I don't do brawls, I don't do sPvP, I don't do complex JPs like the one in Malchor's Leap or that in Ember Bay. And guess what? It's fine. These are all things for other players to enjoy. Likewise, T4, CMs and raids are for people with a mindset similar to mine. To each their own.

 

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> > > >

> > > > Because you play it solo, kappa.

> > > >

> > > > It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

> > >

> > > GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

> > >

> > > So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

> > >

> > > Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

> > >

> > > You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

> >

> > You can. On lower tiers. Stop pretending all of this game is casual. It's not.

>

> I can only roll my eyes so much. I and many others have no problems completing this content, it was not challenging compared to content other MMO's provide but was a nice step up from normal GW2 fare. What I and many others are arguing for is that this content can exclude classes, and does not match up to the difficulty:reward ratio of other fractal content.

>

> T1, T2, T3, T4, that problem will still persist. People in this thread are just arguing two different points.

 

The *content* can't exclude classes. Let's be realistic, it's easy even on T4. You can do it with any classes and any composition. It's the players that can, and do, exclude classes. There's a solid reason for that - the lack of teamplay in such random compositions. Yesterday someone in a pug asked why people "can't" play anymore without a druid and chrono in their group. It's not that I can't, we did the T4 dailies. It's that I don't want to, because the feeling is so much different. In groups like these everyone is basically playing solo. You play next to other players, but not *with* them. It's not remotely as fun as playing in a good composition where characters have different roles to execute.

 

And that's the thing. The design direction the fractal team is taking encourages teamplay. It makes the whole experience more fun, more engaging. And is therefore better. If for some reason you're fan of the "play solo next to others" approach, then you can still have it. And if you find it too hard, then drop down a tier to relax the difficulty. But if you, like me, find this boring, then it's extremely good that we can *now* have actual team content in instances designed to be played by, you know, teams.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I'm disappointed with new fractal, current fractal team and dev competition to push raid-like content into fractals. Fractals were supposed to be our substitue for dungeon, medium-difficulty content. Currently, for some reason, fractal team tries to compete with raid team to provide even more elitist content, pushing vocal minority of elitist on pedestal, trying to alienate even more players.

 

As mentioned above - don't like raids? Go play fractals. After the pollution ag tryhards is leaking to T4s and we are now being pushed away to lower tiers. Why? Because these players said so?

 

Your game won't survive on elitists. PvP proved this. If you keep pushing such ridiculous fractals like shattered observatory - which means random aoe spamfest, oversaturated visuals and messy mechanics - you will get a burst of hype for few months but lose more players in the process.

 

When Anet said that for 5-man content we should go fractals after they stopped developing dungeons, they lied. Recent fractals proved it.

[Zunki.3916]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> > > >

> > > > Because you play it solo, kappa.

> > > >

> > > > It's a cooperative game, all it takes is 1 support. 98-99-100 are actually harder to carry (and therefore - harder overall) because there are actual mechanics that can wipe you if players fail. Oasis you can just outheal.

> > >

> > > GW2 as a game is not built on having a support, all classes are supposed to be able to stand on their own without a healer.

> > >

> > > So saying "Just bring a healer" is counter to what this game is sold as.

> > >

> > > Trust me I know, I play support FB and Druid and yes it makes it way easier. HOWEVER, that doesn't excuse design that either forces a healer or forces certain classes out of the game.

> > >

> > > You are straight up making my argument for me when you say bring a support to cover for classes that lack sustain.

> >

> > You can. On lower tiers. Stop pretending all of this game is casual. It's not.

>

> I can only roll my eyes so much. I and many others have no problems completing this content, it was not challenging compared to content other MMO's provide but was a nice step up from normal GW2 fare. What I and many others are arguing for is that this content can exclude classes, and does not match up to the difficulty:reward ratio of other fractal content.

>

> T1, T2, T3, T4, that problem will still persist. People in this thread are just arguing two different points.

 

I perfectly accept the fact, that the risk/reward is as flawed as the time/reward in all of these fractals. I often skip harder fractals if I'm not in the mood for them. But I would dislike if they weren't there, because sometimes I am in the mood and enjoy them.

 

That's why I care, that's what I mean with diversity. If your argument that the risk/reward ratio is off would be taken care of, then also the time/reward must be considered.

While this may look like a good idea, it has also it's downsides:

 

* All fractals would have relatively medium difficulty, leaving absolutely nothing for the ones who love especially hard ones

* All fractals would have relatively medium difficulty, leaving absolutely nothing for the ones who love especially **easy ** ones

* All fractals would be same length, killing the idea of "Hey look, a fast fractal today, I'll do this and skip the rest"

 

In the end you would kill diversity. And that's not a good thing for me. I enjoy getting an easy fractal on occasion on working days and maybe do a hard one on a free evening, when I'm in the mood.

And that's why I defend the harder content, and also the easier one and don't care too much about time/risk/reward ratios. I try to enjoy the different parts and not just play what's most efficient.