Would you accept thief in your raid group?

[Cynz.9437]

As title states, would you accept thief in your raid group and why?

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

With the Mirage bugfix Condi Thief might be top DPS on certain bosses. Even if not, its DPS is still really good on the bosses it is used on.

If we are talking Power thief... Maybe?

I havent seen a power thief join my squads in months.

[Feanor.2358]

I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

[apharma.3741]

The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

 

1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.

2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

 

Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

 

Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

[Cynz.9437]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

>

> 1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.

> 2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

>

> Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

>

> Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

 

I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

[apharma.3741]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

> >

> > 1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.

> > 2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

> >

> > Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

> >

> > Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

>

> I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I actually would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

 

I’m sorry to hear that, never fun when you don’t get to play your main class. I hope you can find a static group that has a spot for dps and will allow you to run it.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

 

Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

[apharma.3741]

> @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

>

> Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

 

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

 

I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

[thrag.9740]

As in condi thief? Sure as long as it is a fight where condi thief is a reasonable choice. If they only have condi thief and are joining me for a full clear? No, condi thief is bad at sloth, xera, and kc.

 

There are only a few builds that are meta at every encounter. bs warrior, might druid, off chrono

 

Dps roles are highly situational, such a broad question doesn't really make sense.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't really raid, but in fractal CMs I can tell you that particular class composition doesn't mean much. Some of the fastest runs I've ever done didn't have a chronobuffer. All I ask is that somebody is capable and competent, and then the class doesn't matter as much.

[thrag.9740]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> >

> > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

>

> https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

>

> I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

 

It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

 

As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

 

 

[goku.6152]

Yes.. only if it's Nathan Drake

[Zlater.6789]

I think you should distinguish condi thief and power thief. Power thief really is trash now, like I would be kicking them the moment I see a signet of agility. But condi is pretty strong on a number of bosses.

 

Would I kick a deadeye? Yeah 100% get that outta my pug.

[zoomborg.9462]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

> >

> > 1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.

> > 2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

> >

> > Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

> >

> > Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

>

> I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

 

U should have made the poll with more options cause while condi thief is really strong, power thief is a no-no for me.

[Cynz.9437]

> @zoomborg.9462 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > The power creep with PoF and GotL changes means

> > >

> > > 1) everyone has a build open to them that has the potential of 30k or more which should kill bosses easily.

> > > 2) every raid group can afford to have an extra dps class even if you’re running really safe support builds which means more group dps most of the time.

> > >

> > > Mind you don’t turn up on healer thief or some other weird thing that is more of an experimental build than established meta or decent.

> > >

> > > Besides I thought you already raided regularly Cynz.

> >

> > I made the thread because i would like to know whether there are actually players that would accept thief because my personal experience was very different (i usually raid with mes/ele). I would like to try to play my main (thief duhh) in raids again.

>

> U should have made the poll with more options cause while condi thief is really strong, power thief is a no-no for me.

 

I don't think it is issue for thief main to run multiple builds honestly hence why i didn't include condi/power. I think if people join raids, they should be able to adapt their builds to the group/fight to reasonable extend.

[apharma.3741]

> @thrag.9740 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> > >

> > > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

> >

> > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

> >

> > I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

>

> It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

>

> As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

>

>

 

You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.

 

Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k

 

Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

 

The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

 

Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class Nazi.

[Henry.5713]

Certainly. As long as they are willing to play the most effective build or at least not something that is only half as good.

[thrag.9740]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> > > >

> > > > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

> > >

> > > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

> > >

> > > I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

> >

> > It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

> >

> > As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

> >

> >

>

> You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.

>

>

> Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k

>

>

> Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

>

> The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

>

> Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

 

Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

[apharma.3741]

> @thrag.9740 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> > > > >

> > > > > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

> > > >

> > > > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

> > > >

> > > > I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

> > >

> > > It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

> > >

> > > As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.

> >

> >

> > Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k

> >

> >

> > Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

> >

> > The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

> >

> > Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

> I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

>

> Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

 

Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

 

The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

[Faaris.8013]

I play mainly Power DD and have little raiding experience, but I can do consistent 28k dps at Deimos with good support. Not so good at other raid bosses, but as long as you don't join a speed-clear group, it's more than enough to avoid enrage timers. For me, it doesn't matter if we lose 20 seconds in a raid because another class could do 4k dps more. You need enough support already though. A warrior can bring similar dps but add more to the whole group than a thief. I do feel like my thief lacks value in raids, that's why I started practicing my chrono and healer (and gearing up my condi thief). Thief bascially didn't get any new elite. While I see many players with Scourge, Holosmith, Herald, Weaver, Mirage etc. in the game, I see no Deadeyes, except in WvW. For thieves, nothing changed. Of course, if you boost every class except one, that one class becomes less valuable in comparison for upper tier content. In T4 fractals, thief still has a role for mechanics, but try to do challenge motes with it...

[Raguel.9402]

Thief has always been a good dps it just never brought much apart from CC and dps. In competent hands it can be very good and I would never say no to a Thief, depending on the boss of course, in raids.

 

Done a fullclear on my holo yesterday and we pretty much killed everything first try.

 

Bring the player, not the class, within reason ;)

 

Thief is fine.

[thrag.9740]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

> > > > >

> > > > > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

> > > > >

> > > > > I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

> > > >

> > > > It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

> > > >

> > > > As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.

> > >

> > >

> > > Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k

> > >

> > >

> > > Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

> > >

> > > The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

> > >

> > > Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

> > I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

> >

> > Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

>

> Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

>

> The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

 

I don't know if your being deceptive because your ignorant, or because you think I have never raided before. Either way, it hurts your argument. Weaver burst vs power dd burst is not even close. Wana do 1 orb kc? Go try it with thief, try it with weaver. Let me know how it goes. If all you want to do is get a 5 orb kill, run w/e you want. Like I said, again and again, it depends what you want to do.

 

Since you like videos so much, here is a video of a weaver doing an opening burst of 60k

 

Can power dd do that? No? Well I guess power dd wouldnt be good for 1 orb kc. At the same time, weaver wont hit 60k opening on a small hit box. Its almost like classes have differences, and if you want to accomplish specific goals you might need specific builds.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty plays a thief and she accepts other thieves in raids. Thief isn't a good burster, but it does quite solid DPS with non-existent skill requirement.

 

As deadeye on revealing bosses: Malice -> auto-attack-> that orb utility when malice is full -> auto-attack and repeat 'til boss reaches 25% and then some dag 2 when malice is full. And on other bosses the same, except staying behind the boss (which should be done anyway on most bosses) and dagger 5 -> stealth-attack every now and then.

[Mellodia.7534]

I'm not sure about DPS or whatever, but I don't see a point in being discriminatory against a person who likes to play a specific class. To me it's the more the merrier scenario, some extra damage is better than none at all. I prefer to see it optimistically, some people just take games WAY too seriously and become these chauvinistic snobbos just because you spent points wrong or don't have a specific build that's out on the internet or God knows what else. I'm here to chill out, level myself at my own pace, and I welcome all with open arms because we're all different and I'm cool with that. Just don't be a damned preacher and all is gravy ;D

[apharma.3741]

> @thrag.9740 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > @thrag.9740 said:

> > > > > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > > > > > @Jeknar.6184 said:

> > > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > > > > I got exactly the same question regarding a fractal party yesterday. I'm going to answer in the same way - every class is OK, as long as you do comparable dps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Comparable DPS to the top meta classes? Then basically you are saying no because these builds are meta for a reason: Because they do the most DPS.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wasn’t aware that a 4K difference in potential max dps was so raid critical now we have 5 dps spots. I guess I had best request 5 weaver only runs else we might fail the extremely tight enrage timers.

> > > > >

> > > > > It sounds like you believe the 5 dps slots means the party has more dps now. I just want to clear up possible misconceptions, total group dps is lower now, because we no longer have grace of the land buff. Despite having more dps slots now, we have less total dps. The dps gain of swapping 2 cps to 1 bs + dps is less than the loss from everyone losing gotl.

> > > > >

> > > > > As far as enrage timers, it depends what your group is trying to do. Stand still xera? Not the easiest dps check to clear.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You’re still not going to hit enrage timers even with the slight loss of dps from losing GotL. Raids had plenty of wiggle room for those who could find their backsides with one hand.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sloth kill post GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 145k

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sloth kill before GotL nerf end group dps from a competent group 135k

> > > >

> > > > The enrage timer isn’t close to being tight, one of those eles could go and play staff DD and pull similar numbers and as we can see one group did 10k less damage than the other yet it was a comfortable kill. Even if you were running harrier druids and lost another 10k it would be extremely comfortable so your comment is probably not entirely correct about meta comps doing less damage, on the face of it the GotL change is looking about the same.

> > > >

> > > > Remember what qT put at the start of their benchmarks? Don’t be a class kitten.

> > > I think you had trouble reading what I said, so I will repeat myself. It depends what you want to do. Enrage timers are not the main restriction of dps, it is kill method. Stand still xera vs move strat, kc stay in for bombs vs go out for bombs, xera stand still, number of floor phases at vg, cairn stand still (not that many groups do this lol). These choices are what determine how much dps you need, almost no real strategy plans to hit enrage timer. The fact that enrage timers are irrelevant, is also irrelevant.

> > >

> > > Qt can say whatever they want about pugging, because qt doesn't pug.

> >

> > Again, using a power DD that has a max golem dps of 29.8k vs a weaver doing 33.9k isn’t going to make the difference between doing different strats as if you are playing with decent to good players the raid group dps will be high enough for both. We aren’t even considering how much easier it is to mess up on weaver vs DD and how the DD will likely do the exact same damage as the weavers in most raid groups.

> >

> > The videos were to show that raid group DPS has not changed substantially that it is worth being an elitist over the classes for DPS. If a group fails a strategy it isn’t because of the classes they brought (within reason) but because they people playing the classes didn’t bring their A game.

>

> I don't know if your being deceptive because your ignorant, or because you think I have never raided before. Either way, it hurts your argument. Weaver burst vs power dd burst is not even close. Wana do 1 orb kc? Go try it with thief, try it with weaver. Let me know how it goes. If all you want to do is get a 5 orb kill, run w/e you want. Like I said, again and again, it depends what you want to do.

>

> Since you like videos so much, here is a video of a weaver doing an opening burst of 60k

>

>

> Can power dd do that? No? Well I guess power dd wouldnt be good for 1 orb kc. At the same time, weaver wont hit 60k opening on a small hit box. Its almost like classes have differences, and if you want to accomplish specific goals you might need specific builds.

 

So now we are moving the discussion onto one of the few places it matters, 1 orb KC? You didn’t actually mention 1 orb KC in your examples so I ignored it only move out for bombs or not which again weaver or DD it won’t matter as you’ll kill the phantasms quick enough with any competent group and the DD will contribute to the breakbar far more than the weaver usually unless icebows lined up well.

 

Stand still start on Xera, again it won’t be affected by having a DD instead of a weaver, likewise anything you do on Gorseval or VG. The only example where you had any standing was Cairn because it can be a pain seeing those teleport circles when directly on top but then thief just steals back in so no biggy.

 

You’re pulling at straws as burst damage is only really relevant on 1 boss and even then only really low orb runs. Once again there’s very few places where running a DD instead of a weaver will cause a fail whatever you are doing.