Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Purgatori.3645" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Purgatori.3645" said: > > > or .. create raids that are PVE .... PVP ... AND WVW .... make them specific to their environment! how hard is this? > > > > Extremely. You can't really "adapt" a piece of content designed as a hardcore PvE cooperative challenge to a competitive environment. You *could* keep it PvE, obviously, but then you'd kitten the competitive players off. As it is, hardcore WvW players often complain about desert keep lords having rudimentary combat mechanics. They don't want this, that's why they play WvW and not PvE. They want to fight other players. Same for PvP. > > > > WvW players already use the term "raid" to describe guild WvW activity. That's the closest you can get, but you can't make the opposing players behave in a specific way in order to provide a desired level of challenge. Hence, there's no meaningful way of structuring rewards for it. > > > > > > ok this makes complete sense to me. Thank you for this comment :) > > Seems like an awful lot of work and time to invest without getting the corresponding skins with the armor. This really blows for non PVE players. I hope they can find a better compromise than an "upgrade" on ascended etc > > Thanks again! No problem, you're welcome. I suspect Sublime Mistforged was intended as full-fledged WvW legendary armor, but got split into "skin" and "function" (a.k.a. ascended upgrade) because of the amount of complaints that existed about "legendary functionality being locked". They could, of course, lower its requirements, but this would probably upset the long-time WvW veterans which would see their investment and devotion to the game mode kind of betrayed. So it seems to me like a compromise they came up. You know, keep everyone half-way happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? Sure, everyone _can_ get it, but not everyone plays at that level of PvP. The same applies to normal PvE vs. Raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > This would just exclude PvErs and to a lesser extent, WvWers, and only appeases 1/3 of the population. This is essentially what the current system does and it makes no sense. > > > > > > > > > > First off, PvE isn't 1/3 of the population, it's much more. > > > > > > > > > > Second, raiding isn't remotely the same as getting "top 25". > > > > > > > > > > Finally, when you disregard the gross exaggerations from your argument, there's nothing left from it. > > > > > > > > 1. That's likely due to the fact that PvE is the only gamemode that actually receives updates/support from the devs. > > > > 2. Comparing the raiding population to the entire PvE population is not unlike comparing the top 25 on the leaderboard to the (much smaller) PvP population. > > > > 3. LUL > > > > > > > > > > 1. Has it occurred to you it might be intended? This game is primarily PvE by design. > > > > Regardless of whether or not this game is PvE by design, PvP and WvW still consist of 2/3s of the game. The fact that only 1 out of the 3 continue to receive updates and support is mind boggling. > > PvP and WvW do not amount to anything remotely resembling 1/3rd of the game. They're different game modes within the same game, yeah. To call them thirds based on that is like comparing the Moon to the Sun on the basis they're both celestial bodies within the same solar system. Guild Wars 2 has 3 gamemodes. 1 out of the 3 is PvE 1 out of the 3 is PvP 1 out of the 3 is WvW Hence, PvP and WvW together consist of 2/3s of the game while PvE is 1/3. Thus, only making legendary skins available in PvE excludes the other 2/3s of the game. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > 2. It is unlike it. According to gw2efficiency [stats](https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights "stats"), 20% of the players have non-zero LIs, meaning they at least tried raiding. 10% have 90 LIs, which is in the same order of magnitude of what's required for your first set. Unless the PvP population consists of about 250 players in total, your comparison remains grossly exaggerated. > > > > You're really hung up over the number 25. So, I'll make it easier for you to understand by broadening it to "the highest level PvPers." > > So, like The Ascension? Yeah, I have no problem with it being pvp-only. Your point? It's not an issue because there is a PvE legendary backpiece called Ad Infinitum. WvWers also have their own legendary backpiece called Warbringer. If all 3 of these backpieces were only available exclusively through PvP or WvW, you're saying PvErs wouldn't complain? > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > 3. If only "lol" and its derivatives were a valid argument. > > > > It's valid when you purposefully misunderstood the meaning behind what I said to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." > > Except not, and you're just wrong. When confronted with actual facts you're wiggling away using vague and ambiguous expressions like "highest level pvpers". And you did, in fact, [appeal to emotion](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion "appeal to emotion") by exaggerating on purpose to make your original claim sounds like it has some validity. I haven't exaggerated anything. Also, the expression "highest level pvpers" is neither vague nor ambiguous. For example, it can apply to monthly tournament winners and/or the players at the top of the PvP leaderboards. Again, you misunderstand the meaning to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." Clearly what I'm saying isn't that hard to grasp. And you did, in fact, utilize the logical fallacy, [personal incredulity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity), by making what I'm saying sound false simply because you found it difficult to understand. :] As a side note, even though I didn't, exaggerating =/= appealing to emotions. LUL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? Sure, everyone _can_ get it, but not everyone plays at that level of PvP. The same applies to normal PvE vs. Raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would just exclude PvErs and to a lesser extent, WvWers, and only appeases 1/3 of the population. This is essentially what the current system does and it makes no sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, PvE isn't 1/3 of the population, it's much more. > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, raiding isn't remotely the same as getting "top 25". > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, when you disregard the gross exaggerations from your argument, there's nothing left from it. > > > > > > > > > > 1. That's likely due to the fact that PvE is the only gamemode that actually receives updates/support from the devs. > > > > > 2. Comparing the raiding population to the entire PvE population is not unlike comparing the top 25 on the leaderboard to the (much smaller) PvP population. > > > > > 3. LUL > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Has it occurred to you it might be intended? This game is primarily PvE by design. > > > > > > Regardless of whether or not this game is PvE by design, PvP and WvW still consist of 2/3s of the game. The fact that only 1 out of the 3 continue to receive updates and support is mind boggling. > > > > PvP and WvW do not amount to anything remotely resembling 1/3rd of the game. They're different game modes within the same game, yeah. To call them thirds based on that is like comparing the Moon to the Sun on the basis they're both celestial bodies within the same solar system. > > Guild Wars 2 has 3 gamemodes. > 1 out of the 3 is PvE > 1 out of the 3 is PvP > 1 out of the 3 is WvW > > Hence, PvP and WvW together consist of 2/3s of the game while PvE is 1/3. Thus, only making legendary skins available in PvE excludes the other 2/3s of the game. > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > 2. It is unlike it. According to gw2efficiency [stats](https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights "stats"), 20% of the players have non-zero LIs, meaning they at least tried raiding. 10% have 90 LIs, which is in the same order of magnitude of what's required for your first set. Unless the PvP population consists of about 250 players in total, your comparison remains grossly exaggerated. > > > > > > You're really hung up over the number 25. So, I'll make it easier for you to understand by broadening it to "the highest level PvPers." > > > > So, like The Ascension? Yeah, I have no problem with it being pvp-only. Your point? > > It's not an issue because there is a PvE legendary backpiece called Ad Infinitum. WvWers also have their own legendary backpiece called Warbringer. > > If all 3 of these backpieces were only available exclusively through PvP or WvW, you're saying PvErs wouldn't complain? > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > 3. If only "lol" and its derivatives were a valid argument. > > > > > > It's valid when you purposefully misunderstood the meaning behind what I said to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." > > > > Except not, and you're just wrong. When confronted with actual facts you're wiggling away using vague and ambiguous expressions like "highest level pvpers". And you did, in fact, [appeal to emotion](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion "appeal to emotion") by exaggerating on purpose to make your original claim sounds like it has some validity. > > I haven't exaggerated anything. Also, the expression "highest level pvpers" is neither vague nor ambiguous. For example, it can apply to monthly tournament winners and/or the players at the top of the PvP leaderboards. Again, you misunderstand the meaning to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." Clearly what I'm saying isn't that hard to grasp. > > And you did, in fact, utilize the logical fallacy, [personal incredulity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity), by making what I'm saying sound false simply because you found it difficult to understand. :] > > As a side note, even though I didn't, exaggerating =/= appealing to emotions. LUL Oh gods, you're so amusing. Here, have a thumbs up for making me laugh. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, that would be excluding people who _exclusively_ play PvE/WvW. > > > > >> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? Sure, everyone _can_ get it, but not everyone plays at that level of PvP. The same applies to normal PvE vs. Raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This would just exclude PvErs and to a lesser extent, WvWers, and only appeases 1/3 of the population. This is essentially what the current system does and it makes no sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First off, PvE isn't 1/3 of the population, it's much more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, raiding isn't remotely the same as getting "top 25". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, when you disregard the gross exaggerations from your argument, there's nothing left from it. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. That's likely due to the fact that PvE is the only gamemode that actually receives updates/support from the devs. > > > > > > 2. Comparing the raiding population to the entire PvE population is not unlike comparing the top 25 on the leaderboard to the (much smaller) PvP population. > > > > > > 3. LUL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Has it occurred to you it might be intended? This game is primarily PvE by design. > > > > > > > > Regardless of whether or not this game is PvE by design, PvP and WvW still consist of 2/3s of the game. The fact that only 1 out of the 3 continue to receive updates and support is mind boggling. > > > > > > PvP and WvW do not amount to anything remotely resembling 1/3rd of the game. They're different game modes within the same game, yeah. To call them thirds based on that is like comparing the Moon to the Sun on the basis they're both celestial bodies within the same solar system. > > > > Guild Wars 2 has 3 gamemodes. > > 1 out of the 3 is PvE > > 1 out of the 3 is PvP > > 1 out of the 3 is WvW > > > > Hence, PvP and WvW together consist of 2/3s of the game while PvE is 1/3. Thus, only making legendary skins available in PvE excludes the other 2/3s of the game. > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > 2. It is unlike it. According to gw2efficiency [stats](https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights "stats"), 20% of the players have non-zero LIs, meaning they at least tried raiding. 10% have 90 LIs, which is in the same order of magnitude of what's required for your first set. Unless the PvP population consists of about 250 players in total, your comparison remains grossly exaggerated. > > > > > > > > You're really hung up over the number 25. So, I'll make it easier for you to understand by broadening it to "the highest level PvPers." > > > > > > So, like The Ascension? Yeah, I have no problem with it being pvp-only. Your point? > > > > It's not an issue because there is a PvE legendary backpiece called Ad Infinitum. WvWers also have their own legendary backpiece called Warbringer. > > > > If all 3 of these backpieces were only available exclusively through PvP or WvW, you're saying PvErs wouldn't complain? > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > 3. If only "lol" and its derivatives were a valid argument. > > > > > > > > It's valid when you purposefully misunderstood the meaning behind what I said to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." > > > > > > Except not, and you're just wrong. When confronted with actual facts you're wiggling away using vague and ambiguous expressions like "highest level pvpers". And you did, in fact, [appeal to emotion](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion "appeal to emotion") by exaggerating on purpose to make your original claim sounds like it has some validity. > > > > I haven't exaggerated anything. Also, the expression "highest level pvpers" is neither vague nor ambiguous. For example, it can apply to monthly tournament winners and/or the players at the top of the PvP leaderboards. Again, you misunderstand the meaning to the point where it's only worth responding to with "LUL." Clearly what I'm saying isn't that hard to grasp. > > > > And you did, in fact, utilize the logical fallacy, [personal incredulity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity), by making what I'm saying sound false simply because you found it difficult to understand. :] > > > > As a side note, even though I didn't, exaggerating =/= appealing to emotions. LUL > > Oh gods, you're so amusing. Here, have a thumbs up for making me laugh. :lol: Oh dear, it looks like someone used some [ad hominem](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem). > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Except not, and you're just wrong. When confronted with actual facts you're wiggling away using vague and ambiguous expressions like "highest level pvpers". And you did, in fact, [appeal to emotion](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion "appeal to emotion") by exaggerating on purpose to make your original claim sounds like it has some validity. Here's another one you used: [strawman](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman). Would you like to continue? Because it seems like you have more "logical fallacies" in your arguments than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. There are other reasons that you haven't considered for why we don't have multiple paths. They obviously outweight the reasons that we should have it because we don't have multiple paths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > You won't continue because you _can't_. Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). There are 3 gamemodes. PvE is one of them. Hence it is 1 out of the 3 gamemodes. It's really quite simple. Just because one gamemode has a higher population doesn't make it "more" of a gamemode than another. So what is PvE then? 83.4/100th of a gamemode? LUL > Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. This is what I'm talking about, you have nothing else to add. The fact that you consider PvE "more" of a gamemode than the others simply because of a higher population, coupled with the fact that you can't seem to understand that legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE, just serves to prove how little sense you actually make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. You're ridiculous. Quote someone saying "we're excluded from doing raids." ... This is how the argument is going: - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena - "Lolwut" - Everyone Someone being excluded =/= something being exclusive. They have two, entirely separate meanings. Either you honestly can't tell the difference between the two, or (thanks to Feanor for showing this to me) you're purposefully committing the logical fallacy of [ambiguity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. > > That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. Actually, it kind of is. LOL The fact that a single topic has received thousands upon thousands of views, with hundreds of people voicing their opinions on it is a pretty good way to determine how important a topic is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > There are 3 gamemodes. PvE is one of them. Hence it is 1 out of the 3 gamemodes. It's really quite simple. Just because one gamemode has a higher population doesn't make it "more" of a gamemode than another. > > So what is PvE then? 83.4/100th of a gamemode? LUL > > > Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. > > This is what I'm talking about, you have nothing else to add. The fact that you consider PvE "more" of a gamemode than the others simply because of a higher population, coupled with the fact that you can't seem to understand that legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE, just serves to prove how little sense you actually make. I never said it's *because* of higher population. The higher population is a result, not a cause. The cause is the overall design of the game. It has much, MUCH more content in PvE than anything else. Upon character creation you're dropped into short PvE instance which serves as a basic tutorial and is followed up by your personal story, which, again, is PvE. Under the normal levelling experience, WvW is introduced as late as level 60 and PvP at level 80. The major updates the game receives, the expansions and the Living World Seasons, extend the personal story and the open world of the game, PvE features. Really, it's not that hard to put it all together. It's a PvE game. Yes, it *supports* two pvp game modes, and even does pretty well in them. But to expect them to be treated on even grounds with PvE is unrealistic and naive. That's not the intent of the game, it never was, and it won't be. Oh, and before I forget again, your made-up term "legendary skin". There's no such thing in this game. There's legendary gear, the defining feature of which is the ability to stat-swap on demand. Access to this function on armor *IS* available through both sPvP and WvW. Fact. And there are the exclusive skins, which may or may not be tied to said function. Exclusive skins are found everywhere, across all 3 game modes, and outside of them, in the gemstore. You're just making up an excuse because for some reason you decided you're entitled to get a specific exclusive skin without playing the respective content. It would be *exactly* the same if I was asking for The Ascension to be obtainable through, say, world bosses in open world. It doesn't matter that there's Ad Infinitum, because I'm asking for the specific skin - *exactly* what you do. The only difference is, I actually don't. Because I'm well aware of the need of exclusive rewards. But you're entirely right that I have nothing to add. All this I've told time and again. And it gets ignored, as I'm sure it will get ignored again. Because you're not looking for a debate. You're looking for free shinies. However, this game, like any successful game, is ran by people who actually understand game design. So you won't be getting your free shinies. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > > > > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > > > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. > > You're ridiculous. Quote someone saying "we're excluded from doing raids." ... > > This is how the argument is going: > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > Someone being excluded =/= something being exclusive. They have two, entirely separate meanings. > > Either you honestly can't tell the difference between the two, or (thanks to Feanor for showing this to me) you're purposefully committing the logical fallacy of [ambiguity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. > > > > That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. > > Actually, it kind of is. LOL > > The fact that a single topic has received thousands upon thousands of views, with hundreds of people voicing their opinions on it is a pretty good way to determine how important a topic is. Yes, it is important, but that doesn't equal have to implement. Anyways, it's clear you're being obtuse; the only thing that prevents you from getting this loot is to do the content; a fundamental tenet of MMO's. Nothing in the game prevents that; all people have access to do raids. The rest is up to you. If you think complaining about excluding yourself from content that drops loot you want is going to get you legendary armor better than the way it's implemented in the game right now, I can only say GL to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > > > Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > > > There are 3 gamemodes. PvE is one of them. Hence it is 1 out of the 3 gamemodes. It's really quite simple. Just because one gamemode has a higher population doesn't make it "more" of a gamemode than another. > > > > So what is PvE then? 83.4/100th of a gamemode? LUL > > > > > Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. > > > > This is what I'm talking about, you have nothing else to add. The fact that you consider PvE "more" of a gamemode than the others simply because of a higher population, coupled with the fact that you can't seem to understand that legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE, just serves to prove how little sense you actually make. > > **I never said it's because of higher population**. The higher population is a result, not a cause. The cause is the overall design of the game. It has much, MUCH more content in PvE than anything else. Upon character creation you're dropped into short PvE instance which serves as a basic tutorial and is followed up by your personal story, which, again, is PvE. Under the normal levelling experience, WvW is introduced as late as level 60 and PvP at level 80. The major updates the game receives, the expansions and the Living World Seasons, extend the personal story and the open world of the game, PvE features. Really, it's not that hard to put it all together. It's a PvE game. Yes, it *supports* two pvp game modes, and even does pretty well in them. But to expect them to be treated on even grounds with PvE is unrealistic and naive. That's not the intent of the game, it never was, and it won't be. Yes you did. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > Well yeah. **After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base**, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). You also said it's because of content updates and "whatnot." > > **Oh, and before I forget again, your made-up term "legendary skin".** There's no such thing in this game. There's legendary gear, the defining feature of which is the ability to stat-swap on demand. Access to this function on armor *IS* available through both sPvP and WvW. Fact. And there are the exclusive skins, which may or may not be tied to said function. Exclusive skins are found everywhere, across all 3 game modes, and outside of them, in the gemstore. You're just making up an excuse because for some reason you decided you're entitled to get a specific exclusive skin without playing the respective content. It would be *exactly* the same if I was asking for The Ascension to be obtainable through, say, world bosses in open world. It doesn't matter that there's Ad Infinitum, because I'm asking for the specific skin - *exactly* what you do. The only difference is, I actually don't. Because I'm well aware of the need of exclusive rewards. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor Taken from the Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Legendary Armor, "Acquisition of the **PvE sets with their unique skins** is linked to raids..." "Made-up term" LUL The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because: - PvE has Ad Infinitum - PvP has The Ascension - WvW has Warbringer Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes. However, there is only _one_ way to obtain the legendary armor skins, and that is through PvE. Thus, WvWers and PvPers are left out/upset/excluded/-insert synonym for dissatisfied here-. > > But you're entirely right that I have nothing to add. All this I've told time and again. And it gets ignored, as I'm sure it will get ignored again. **Because you're not looking for a debate. You're looking for free shinies.** However, this game, like any successful game, is ran by people who actually understand game design. So you won't be getting your free shinies. Deal with it. LUL > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > I'd be more than happy to continue debating this topic with you. Quote me saying that I'm looking for free shinies. You're literally making things up and putting words into my mouth to make up for the fact that the only thing you've been saying this entire time is, "You're wrong." Yet you've failed time and time again to actually prove it. Quote me where I'm exaggerating. Quote me on my absurd claims. You can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > > > > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > > > > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > > > > > > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > > > > > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. > > > > You're ridiculous. Quote someone saying "we're excluded from doing raids." ... > > > > This is how the argument is going: > > > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > > > Someone being excluded =/= something being exclusive. They have two, entirely separate meanings. > > > > Either you honestly can't tell the difference between the two, or (thanks to Feanor for showing this to me) you're purposefully committing the logical fallacy of [ambiguity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. > > > > > > That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. > > > > Actually, it kind of is. LOL > > > > The fact that a single topic has received thousands upon thousands of views, with hundreds of people voicing their opinions on it is a pretty good way to determine how important a topic is. > > Yes, it is important, but that doesn't equal have to implement. > > Anyways, it's clear you're being obtuse; the only thing that prevents you from getting this loot is to do the content; a fundamental tenet of MMO's. Nothing in the game prevents that; all people have access to do raids. The rest is up to you. If you think complaining about excluding yourself from content that drops loot you want is going to get you legendary armor better than the way it's implemented in the game right now, I can only say GL to you. This is how the argument is going: - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena - "Lolwut" - Everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > > > > > Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > > > > > There are 3 gamemodes. PvE is one of them. Hence it is 1 out of the 3 gamemodes. It's really quite simple. Just because one gamemode has a higher population doesn't make it "more" of a gamemode than another. > > > > > > So what is PvE then? 83.4/100th of a gamemode? LUL > > > > > > > Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about, you have nothing else to add. The fact that you consider PvE "more" of a gamemode than the others simply because of a higher population, coupled with the fact that you can't seem to understand that legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE, just serves to prove how little sense you actually make. > > > > **I never said it's because of higher population**. The higher population is a result, not a cause. The cause is the overall design of the game. It has much, MUCH more content in PvE than anything else. Upon character creation you're dropped into short PvE instance which serves as a basic tutorial and is followed up by your personal story, which, again, is PvE. Under the normal levelling experience, WvW is introduced as late as level 60 and PvP at level 80. The major updates the game receives, the expansions and the Living World Seasons, extend the personal story and the open world of the game, PvE features. Really, it's not that hard to put it all together. It's a PvE game. Yes, it *supports* two pvp game modes, and even does pretty well in them. But to expect them to be treated on even grounds with PvE is unrealistic and naive. That's not the intent of the game, it never was, and it won't be. > > Yes you did. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > Well yeah. **After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base**, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > You also said it's because of content updates and "whatnot." > > > > > **Oh, and before I forget again, your made-up term "legendary skin".** There's no such thing in this game. There's legendary gear, the defining feature of which is the ability to stat-swap on demand. Access to this function on armor *IS* available through both sPvP and WvW. Fact. And there are the exclusive skins, which may or may not be tied to said function. Exclusive skins are found everywhere, across all 3 game modes, and outside of them, in the gemstore. You're just making up an excuse because for some reason you decided you're entitled to get a specific exclusive skin without playing the respective content. It would be *exactly* the same if I was asking for The Ascension to be obtainable through, say, world bosses in open world. It doesn't matter that there's Ad Infinitum, because I'm asking for the specific skin - *exactly* what you do. The only difference is, I actually don't. Because I'm well aware of the need of exclusive rewards. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor > > Taken from the Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Legendary Armor, "Acquisition of the **PvE sets with their unique skins** is linked to raids..." > > "Made-up term" LUL > > The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because: > - PvE has Ad Infinitum > - PvP has The Ascension > - WvW has Warbringer > > Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes. However, there is only _one_ way to obtain the legendary armor skins, and that is through PvE. Thus, WvWers and PvPers are left out/upset/excluded/-insert synonym for dissatisfied here-. > > > > > But you're entirely right that I have nothing to add. All this I've told time and again. And it gets ignored, as I'm sure it will get ignored again. **Because you're not looking for a debate. You're looking for free shinies.** However, this game, like any successful game, is ran by people who actually understand game design. So you won't be getting your free shinies. Deal with it. > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > I'd be more than happy to continue debating this topic with you. > > Quote me saying that I'm looking for free shinies. You're literally making things up and putting words into my mouth to make up for the fact that the only thing you've been saying this entire time is, "You're wrong." Yet you've failed time and time again to actually prove it. > > Quote me where I'm exaggerating. > > Quote me on my absurd claims. > > You can't. 1. Nice cherry picking. Also, strawman. I was listing obvious indications, I didn't say I was listing reasons. :) 2. I still don't see anywhere the term "legendary skin". I see "legendary armor" and "unique skin", but not "legendary skin". :) 3. It's almost like PvE has Envoy, WvW has Sublime Misforged and PvP has Ardent Glorious Armor. What a shocking coincidence! :lol: 4. Nah, I won't bother. It's all there already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > > > > > > > Well yeah. After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > > > > > > > There are 3 gamemodes. PvE is one of them. Hence it is 1 out of the 3 gamemodes. It's really quite simple. Just because one gamemode has a higher population doesn't make it "more" of a gamemode than another. > > > > > > > > So what is PvE then? 83.4/100th of a gamemode? LUL > > > > > > > > > Your position is so far off any game design reality that there simply isn't any base for a debate. > > > > > > > > This is what I'm talking about, you have nothing else to add. The fact that you consider PvE "more" of a gamemode than the others simply because of a higher population, coupled with the fact that you can't seem to understand that legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE, just serves to prove how little sense you actually make. > > > > > > **I never said it's because of higher population**. The higher population is a result, not a cause. The cause is the overall design of the game. It has much, MUCH more content in PvE than anything else. Upon character creation you're dropped into short PvE instance which serves as a basic tutorial and is followed up by your personal story, which, again, is PvE. Under the normal levelling experience, WvW is introduced as late as level 60 and PvP at level 80. The major updates the game receives, the expansions and the Living World Seasons, extend the personal story and the open world of the game, PvE features. Really, it's not that hard to put it all together. It's a PvE game. Yes, it *supports* two pvp game modes, and even does pretty well in them. But to expect them to be treated on even grounds with PvE is unrealistic and naive. That's not the intent of the game, it never was, and it won't be. > > > > Yes you did. > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > You won't continue because you _can't_. > > > > > > Well yeah. **After you insist to call a game mode "1/3rd" despite huge differences in player base**, content updates and whatnot, there really isn't much I *can* do beside offering a metaphor illustrating the absurdity of your claim (which you ignored). > > > > You also said it's because of content updates and "whatnot." > > > > > > > > **Oh, and before I forget again, your made-up term "legendary skin".** There's no such thing in this game. There's legendary gear, the defining feature of which is the ability to stat-swap on demand. Access to this function on armor *IS* available through both sPvP and WvW. Fact. And there are the exclusive skins, which may or may not be tied to said function. Exclusive skins are found everywhere, across all 3 game modes, and outside of them, in the gemstore. You're just making up an excuse because for some reason you decided you're entitled to get a specific exclusive skin without playing the respective content. It would be *exactly* the same if I was asking for The Ascension to be obtainable through, say, world bosses in open world. It doesn't matter that there's Ad Infinitum, because I'm asking for the specific skin - *exactly* what you do. The only difference is, I actually don't. Because I'm well aware of the need of exclusive rewards. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor > > > > Taken from the Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Legendary Armor, "Acquisition of the **PvE sets with their unique skins** is linked to raids..." > > > > "Made-up term" LUL > > > > The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because: > > - PvE has Ad Infinitum > > - PvP has The Ascension > > - WvW has Warbringer > > > > Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes. However, there is only _one_ way to obtain the legendary armor skins, and that is through PvE. Thus, WvWers and PvPers are left out/upset/excluded/-insert synonym for dissatisfied here-. > > > > > > > > But you're entirely right that I have nothing to add. All this I've told time and again. And it gets ignored, as I'm sure it will get ignored again. **Because you're not looking for a debate. You're looking for free shinies.** However, this game, like any successful game, is ran by people who actually understand game design. So you won't be getting your free shinies. Deal with it. > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > I'd be more than happy to continue debating this topic with you. > > > > Quote me saying that I'm looking for free shinies. You're literally making things up and putting words into my mouth to make up for the fact that the only thing you've been saying this entire time is, "You're wrong." Yet you've failed time and time again to actually prove it. > > > > Quote me where I'm exaggerating. > > > > Quote me on my absurd claims. > > > > You can't. > > 1. Nice cherry picking. Also, strawman. I was listing obvious indications, I didn't say I was listing reasons. :) Nice. I cherry picked the fact that you said (that you never said) that pve is more than 1/3 of the available gamemodes due to it having a higher population. So yes, I cherry picked out a blantant lie and supported it with a quote from you that proved me correct. It's not strawman when I didn't misrepresent your argument in any way. I literally quoted you as the response. LUL so if you're saying what I quoted is strawman, you're calling yourself a liar. > 2. I still don't see anywhere the term "legendary skin". I see "legendary armor" and "unique skin", but not "legendary skin". :) I think if you were to go into LA map chat and say that legendary skins don't exist, you'd be laughed out of the game. Legendary skins clearly exist and the fact that you say otherwise just proves how delusional you are. > 3. It's almost like PvE has Envoy, WvW has Sublime Misforged and PvP has Ardent Glorious Armor. What a shocking coincidence! :lol: Ardent Glorious Armor is just a reskin of Glorious Hero Armor. It looks almost completely identical. Sublime Mistforged is a reskin of the Triumphant Hero Armor (again, almost completely identical) with only the chest piece having an added effect. My point still stands. The only way to obtain PvE exclusive legendary armor skins is through PvE. The other 2 gamemodes do not have access to the transforming effects as what's available are essentially lazy reskins of already existing ones. > 4. Nah, I won't bother. It's all there already. Exactly. You can't quote me because there isn't any. Called it. :] Just saying "it's there," doesn't mean it actually is. Burden of proof lies with the claimant, not the defender. Thus, saying that I'm exaggerating and incorrect, then failing to provide _any_ proof or quotes as to why it is so, is one of the _biggest_ logical fallacies. It's too bad you're entire argument sucks, hence why you can't actually provide a single piece of evidence to back up your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because: > - PvE has Ad Infinitum > - PvP has The Ascension > - WvW has Warbringer > > Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes. Nope, "PvE" doesn't have a representative backpack either. Just like the Envoy set (and pretty much everything else in "PvE") it's a special reward for specific sub-content as opposed to the overarcing rewards for the PvP ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Tails.9372" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because: > > - PvE has Ad Infinitum > > - PvP has The Ascension > > - WvW has Warbringer > > > > Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes. > Nope, "PvE" doesn't have a representative backpack either. Just like the Envoy set (and pretty much everything else in "PvE") it's a special reward for specific sub-content as opposed to the overarcing rewards for the PvP ones. You're 100% incorrect. Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_ Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_ Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_ So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > > > > > > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > > > > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > > > > > > > > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > > > > > > > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. > > > > > > You're ridiculous. Quote someone saying "we're excluded from doing raids." ... > > > > > > This is how the argument is going: > > > > > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > > > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > > > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > > > > > Someone being excluded =/= something being exclusive. They have two, entirely separate meanings. > > > > > > Either you honestly can't tell the difference between the two, or (thanks to Feanor for showing this to me) you're purposefully committing the logical fallacy of [ambiguity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. > > > > > > > > That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. > > > > > > Actually, it kind of is. LOL > > > > > > The fact that a single topic has received thousands upon thousands of views, with hundreds of people voicing their opinions on it is a pretty good way to determine how important a topic is. > > > > Yes, it is important, but that doesn't equal have to implement. > > > > Anyways, it's clear you're being obtuse; the only thing that prevents you from getting this loot is to do the content; a fundamental tenet of MMO's. Nothing in the game prevents that; all people have access to do raids. The rest is up to you. If you think complaining about excluding yourself from content that drops loot you want is going to get you legendary armor better than the way it's implemented in the game right now, I can only say GL to you. > > This is how the argument is going: > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > - "Lolwut" - Everyone How **this** argument is going: 1. There is only one path to legendary armor ingame. Implementing more paths is about its practicality, not its morality. You're just here to win an argument? Great ... you win then. I see little relevance to how that affects multiple paths being implemented for legendary armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > You're 100% incorrect. > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_ > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_ > > Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_ > > So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances." Your missing the point. I never said that Ad Infinitum isn't **a** PvE backpack, it's just not **the** PvE backpack in the same way as Warbringer is for WvW. Warbringer is an overarcing reward for playing WvW, the same just isn't true for Ad Infinitum in regards to PvE. It's just like raid armor: a special reward for sub-content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, that's only theoretically the case. Realistically, people have huge problems getting into raid-content due to various reasons I already listed in previous posts. It's not by choice, it's because of game-design (especially balancing) and (no offense intended here) because of a through efficiency-madness in large parts mentally deranged raiding-community. As it stands, of all the MMORPGs I've played thus far, GW2 is the MMORPG in which it is the most difficult to get both into raiding-content and into cm-fractals. If you want, I can elaborate. Doesn't change the fact that ANet has to improve accessiblity to raiding-content drastically. And that's all I want: improved accessibility, so people actually can get into the content. I have no problem with having that specific armor-set raid-locked; accessibility is a problem though. > > > > > > > > > > It's not theoretical. There are no barriers ingame to people doing raids. > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tails.9372" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only for raiders. Which would be likely raiding anyway even without that armor, by the way. For everyone else it's useless in that regard, because a goal you won't work toward (because you don't like the path) will not keep you engaged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you want to give players a long-term goal to keep them playing, you don't put that goal behind a content most players will _not_ play. That completely defeats its purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There isn't anything wrong with this. Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL. Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thus, pushing players into paths offering them the game experience those players actively dislike is not really desirable. It's far better to offer them choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes it is, but this isn't a decision based on fairness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How would people feel if legendary armor was PvP exclusive and only available to the top 25 people on the leaderboard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same way that non-raiders feel now ... what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That _is_ the problem. If legendary armor was only obtainable through the highest levels of PvP, PvErs would be excluded and have almost no chance of actually getting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not a problem at all. No one is excluded because they CHOOSE to not do content. That's disingenuous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So having PvE exclusive legendary armor skins isn't exclusive? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you mean ... NO one is excluded from doing raid content to obtain legendary armor. NO player is excluded EXCEPT by their own choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did I ever say people are excluded from _doing_ raid content? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I _did_ say was that by making legendary armor skins only available through the highest level of PvE, by definition, you're excluding everyone who doesn't PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, those people are excluding themselves from that content, not the other way around > > > > > > > > > > > > Exclusive is defined as: _restricted or limited to the person, group, or area concerned._ > > > > > > > > > > > > Legendary armor skins are: _restricted or limited to PvErs and PvE alone._ > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing excludes a player from doing raids to get that loot, PERIOD. Loot being exclusive to content does not prevent players from doing that content and getting that loot. That's a self-imposed restriction, not a game-imposed one. > > > > > > > > You're ridiculous. Quote someone saying "we're excluded from doing raids." ... > > > > > > > > This is how the argument is going: > > > > > > > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > > > > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > > > > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > > > > > > > Someone being excluded =/= something being exclusive. They have two, entirely separate meanings. > > > > > > > > Either you honestly can't tell the difference between the two, or (thanks to Feanor for showing this to me) you're purposefully committing the logical fallacy of [ambiguity](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should Anet provide other paths to Legendary Armor, well, customer retention would be a good reason, to keep with their founding philosophy would be another.. but they don't need to do either of those things. They can take the loss in both players and faith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So be it ... Anet can't make the game everything for everyone. I see no problem with that. It's reasonable and practical. There are lots of great reasons to do lots of great things, but Anet can't do them all. Furthermore, people leave the game for all kinds of reasons and it makes no sense for Anet to try to throw a carrot to everyone by fixing every reason they leave for. The best they can do is provide a game experience that makes people want to stay. That's why game experience is more important than throwing pixels around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's okay. I just don't see why there wouldn't be legendary armor exclusive for each individual gamemode. It would make more sense to reward the best players in PvE, WvW, and PvP. Instead, only the PvErs are rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are lots of reasons, you just choose to ignore them or don't know what they are. If people don't choose to do content, that's not Anet's problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So then list them. Just saying "there are lots of reasons" doesn't mean there actually _are_ "lots of reasons." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've already made my points. If you missed them, go back and look. I've thought of more too ... just biding my time. The current reasons still hold fast. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only point you've made so far is: "Anet can't make the game everything for everyone." Yet I contest that it isn't really a point at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that they can't make the game for everyone? No, they didn't. So where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a valid point because it's not practical. Anet implementing multiple paths has nothing to do with if it's a good idea or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did Anet themselves state that giving the legendary armor skins to PvP/WvW weren't practical? If they didn't, where did you get this information from and why is it a valid point? > > > > > > > > > > > > _Obviously_ it's a good idea to implement multiple paths due to the fact that it's a large enough issue to warrant a 20 page thread that has 12.7k views and nearly 800 replies. > > > > > > > > > > That's a fallacy; number of pages in a thread is NOT a measure of how important an idea is to be implemented. ... and besides, being a good idea isn't enough of a factor to make Anet implement it. > > > > > > > > Actually, it kind of is. LOL > > > > > > > > The fact that a single topic has received thousands upon thousands of views, with hundreds of people voicing their opinions on it is a pretty good way to determine how important a topic is. > > > > > > Yes, it is important, but that doesn't equal have to implement. > > > > > > Anyways, it's clear you're being obtuse; the only thing that prevents you from getting this loot is to do the content; a fundamental tenet of MMO's. Nothing in the game prevents that; all people have access to do raids. The rest is up to you. If you think complaining about excluding yourself from content that drops loot you want is going to get you legendary armor better than the way it's implemented in the game right now, I can only say GL to you. > > > > This is how the argument is going: > > > > - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone > > - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena > > - "Lolwut" - Everyone > > How this argument is going: > > 1. There is only one path to legendary armor ingame. > > So bitter. > > LOL You're literally proving my point over and over again. - "Legendary armor skins are exclusive to PvE." - Everyone - "No they aren't, because people aren't excluded from raids." - Obtena - "Lolwut" - Everyone There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > There's a reason why the OP has over 100 thumbs ups in a single post while you have over 900 posts and only 600 thumbs ups. Obviously, people don't generally agree with what you have to say, or, find it so pointless talking to you because you make so little sense that they cease to do so at all. ... It's irrelevant who agrees with what I have to say ... It's not a contest. 'Winning the interwebs" with thumbs ups doesn't mean we will get multiple paths ... or that anyone is even right. That's not a realistic view of how to make a compelling argument for what you want. You continue to ignore the fact that multiple paths is a practical issue, not a moral one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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