Swagger.1459 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong). > > > > > > > > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > > > > > > > Not entirely true. > > > > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink. > > > > > > You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive. > > > > Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun. > > Usually, yes. But mostly post factum. Players tend to make poor assessment of what *would* be fun. > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions. > > You can remove some restrictions, but you introduce other ones. The game won't work otherwise. In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion. But giving them right away won't feel the same way, would it? These are basics you can't, and shouldn't remove. Please stop spinning the conversation and changing your position. You- “players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun” Me- “Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.“ You- “Usually, yes”. ... ... ... The game has been working perfectly fine with slowly porting legendary armor to other modes. I’m sure the game won’t break by giving paths to legendary weapons for raids. Or paths to all the various legendary gear in all modes... Nobody, except you, is talking about “giving them right away won't feel the same way”. 6ish months, of someone’s personal time, to achieve anything in game is not “giving them right away won't feel the same way”. Spending a month-ish worth of time to earn 1 weapon... or trinket... or back piece... is not “giving them right away won't feel the same way”... And thank you very much for strengthening my suggestion in the OP... You- "In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion." Mike O'Brien- “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” I'll let you absorb those quotes and realize how well they fit into the spirit of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarshallLaw.9260 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong). > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely true. > > > > > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink. > > > > > > > > You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive. > > > > > > Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun. > > > > Usually, yes. But mostly post factum. Players tend to make poor assessment of what *would* be fun. > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions. > > > > You can remove some restrictions, but you introduce other ones. The game won't work otherwise. In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion. But giving them right away won't feel the same way, would it? These are basics you can't, and shouldn't remove. > > Please stop spinning the conversation and changing your position. > > You- “players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun” > > Me- “Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.“ > > You- “Usually, yes”. > > ... ... ... > > The game has been working perfectly fine with slowly porting legendary armor to other modes. I’m sure the game won’t break by giving paths to legendary weapons for raids. Or paths to all the various legendary gear in all modes... > > Nobody, except you, is talking about “giving them right away won't feel the same way”. 6ish months, of someone’s personal time, to achieve anything in game is not “giving them right away won't feel the same way”. Spending a month-ish worth of time to earn 1 weapon... or trinket... or back piece... is not “giving them right away won't feel the same way”... > > And thank you very much for strengthening my suggestion in the OP... > > You- "In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion." > > Mike O'Brien- “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” > > I'll let you absorb those quotes and realize how well they fit into the spirit of the thread. Fun is subjective. maybe: Your fun - having legendary armor from grinding in Queensdale for 10 months. Mike O'Briens fun - doing raids (which don't require leg gear to get through). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. Well, that is your opinion. I happen to disagree. (yes, you can say it's also the devs opinion, but as i said, they _have_ been known to make mistakes before, so them thinking one way is _not_ a guarantee that they're right in this case) > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. Popular opinion _always_ carries some weight. If you allow the differences between game design and player ideas of what they'd find fun to become too great, you will eventually find yourself in a game without players. Devs (at least the ones that can influence game design anyway) must be aware of this, or they will end up killing their own games. You can argue whether in any specific case devs should listen or not, but saying that popular opinion can be ignored because players don't understand game design is foolish. A game design may be brilliant when seen by a professional, but a dissatisfied customer won't care about it and will still leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong). > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely true. > > > > > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink. > > > > > > > > You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive. > > > > > > Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun. > > > > Usually, yes. But mostly post factum. Players tend to make poor assessment of what *would* be fun. > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions. > > > > You can remove some restrictions, but you introduce other ones. The game won't work otherwise. In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion. But giving them right away won't feel the same way, would it? These are basics you can't, and shouldn't remove. > > Please stop spinning the conversation and changing your position. > > You- “players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun” > > Me- “Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.“ > > You- “Usually, yes”. Maybe read the next sentence? :lol: > @"Swagger.1459" said: > And thank you very much for strengthening my suggestion in the OP... > > You- "In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion." > > Mike O'Brien- “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” > > I'll let you absorb those quotes and realize how well they fit into the spirit of the thread. And thank you very much for proving me right in my assessment about player's understanding. "Being fun moment to moment" doesn't mean "do what you feel like", although this game allows that to an extent. But giving players a direction is still a necessity, or you'd end up with pointless activities, and that's no fun. And by the way, did you really just quote this after advocating 6-month grinds? With a straight face? :lol: > @"Swagger.1459" said: > The game has been working perfectly fine with slowly porting legendary armor to other modes. I’m sure the game won’t break by giving paths to legendary weapons for raids. Or paths to all the various legendary gear in all modes... The game already *has* access to legendary gear, armor in particular, in all game modes. You seem to distinguish raids from the rest of the PvE, which is unfounded. They aren't fundamentally different from fractals, or dungeons - just instanced content designed to be played in party. The only distinction is that *you*, personally, don't want to play this specific content. Well guess what, I'm not keen on Chalice of Tears either, but I did it when I had to, in order to get Aurora. Asking for alternative ways for obtaining particular rewards based on *personal* preferences is absurd. You'll never see the end of it. You can't appease everyone, and it's not needed either. Again, what matters if the experience. If someone doesn't like a particular experience, then they just don't play that. Simple. There's nothing more natural than them not getting the associated reward either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > Popular opinion _always_ carries some weight. If you allow the differences between game design and player ideas of what they'd find fun to become too great, you will eventually find yourself in a game without players. Devs (at least the ones that can influence game design anyway) must be aware of this, or they will end up killing their own games. You can argue whether in any specific case devs should listen or not, but saying that popular opinion can be ignored because players don't understand game design is foolish. A game design may be brilliant when seen by a professional, but a dissatisfied customer won't care about it and will still leave. > > Of course, but a there's a LOT more to consider. Players' opinions vary, wildly. What you describe is extremely rare, because it would mean the designers are completely out of touch with basically all of their players. Which isn't true here either. There's a vocal minority unhappy about feeling excluded from raids, but that's what it is - a vocal minority. The vast majority of the players either raid or simply don't care about it and have fun otherwise. The game gives them plenty of opportunities for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely true. > > > > > > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink. > > > > > > > > > > You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive. > > > > > > > > Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun. > > > > > > Usually, yes. But mostly post factum. Players tend to make poor assessment of what *would* be fun. > > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions. > > > > > > You can remove some restrictions, but you introduce other ones. The game won't work otherwise. In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion. But giving them right away won't feel the same way, would it? These are basics you can't, and shouldn't remove. > > > > Please stop spinning the conversation and changing your position. > > > > You- “players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun” > > > > Me- “Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.“ > > > > You- “Usually, yes”. > > Maybe read the next sentence? :lol: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > And thank you very much for strengthening my suggestion in the OP... > > > > You- "In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion." > > > > Mike O'Brien- “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” > > > > I'll let you absorb those quotes and realize how well they fit into the spirit of the thread. > > And thank you very much for proving me right in my assessment about player's understanding. "Being fun moment to moment" doesn't mean "do what you feel like", although this game allows that to an extent. But giving players a direction is still a necessity, or you'd end up with pointless activities, and that's no fun. > > And by the way, did you really just quote this after advocating 6-month grinds? With a straight face? :lol: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > The game has been working perfectly fine with slowly porting legendary armor to other modes. I’m sure the game won’t break by giving paths to legendary weapons for raids. Or paths to all the various legendary gear in all modes... > > The game already *has* access to legendary gear, armor in particular, in all game modes. You seem to distinguish raids from the rest of the PvE, which is unfounded. They aren't fundamentally different from fractals, or dungeons - just instanced content designed to be played in party. The only distinction is that *you*, personally, don't want to play this specific content. Well guess what, I'm not keen on Chalice of Tears either, but I did it when I had to, in order to get Aurora. Asking for alternative ways for obtaining particular rewards based on *personal* preferences is absurd. You'll never see the end of it. You can't appease everyone, and it's not needed either. Again, what matters if the experience. If someone doesn't like a particular experience, then they just don't play that. Simple. There's nothing more natural than them not getting the associated reward either. Oh I read it, hence my first sentence... You keep spinning things to suit your argument, and that’s never makes for a healthy debate. “The only distinction is that *you*, personally, don't want to play this specific content.”... I have 15 legendary weapons. Medium legendary raid armor. Warbringer. Aurora... How about you? Seriously, you assume too much, and clearly do not understand the reasons for this request. Try connecting the dots more and you’ll get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Of course, but a there's a LOT more to consider. Players' opinions vary, wildly. What you describe is extremely rare, because it would mean the designers are completely out of touch with basically all of their players. Well, duh. That is exactly what happens if you think that player opinion doesn't matter. If you'll keep ignoring what players say, you _will_ end up out of touch with the community. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > There's a vocal minority unhappy about feeling excluded from raids, but that's what it is - a vocal minority. The vast majority of the players either raid or simply don't care about it and have fun otherwise. The vast majority of players _do not_ raid. And the people against making more options available are _also_ a vocal minority. The majority of players never posts ort voices their opinions. Even if they _aren't_ happy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > Popular opinion _always_ carries some weight. If you allow the differences between game design and player ideas of what they'd find fun to become too great, you will eventually find yourself in a game without players. Devs (at least the ones that can influence game design anyway) must be aware of this, or they will end up killing their own games. You can argue whether in any specific case devs should listen or not, but saying that popular opinion can be ignored because players don't understand game design is foolish. A game design may be brilliant when seen by a professional, but a dissatisfied customer won't care about it and will still leave. > > > > > > Of course, but a there's a LOT more to consider. Players' opinions vary, wildly. What you describe is extremely rare, because it would mean the designers are completely out of touch with basically all of their players. Which isn't true here either. There's a vocal minority unhappy about feeling excluded from raids, but that's what it is - a vocal minority. The vast majority of the players either raid or simply don't care about it and have fun otherwise. The game gives them plenty of opportunities for that. There ya go again... You go on and on and on about raids... This is a bigger topic than raids or legendary armor. You said you understood before, yet you clearly don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Please lets not waste their resources on something like this. There are already reasonable enough methods for legendary gear. In fact I would prefer them to be even more harsh to acquire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katz.8376 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. and now you're channeling Smedley fitting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. And Wrong again. They have made a mistake here, their many revisions of HoT and the addition of _easy_ raids like the Stronghold of the Faithful are proof this, the question at this point.. is not if they made a mistake but, _how bad a mistake they made_. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before. > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here. > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong). > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. And Wrong again. Popular Opinion carries a massive amount of weight in any company that deals with frivolous entertainment like a video game company, as the popular opinion of a game establishes it's reputation, and.. anyone who works in the industry knows reputation is everything, also, anyone who has a clue, will tell you that if the game gets a bad rep, that is a death sentence. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever. > > Popular opinion _always_ carries some weight. If you allow the differences between game design and player ideas of what they'd find fun to become too great, you will eventually find yourself in a game without players. Devs (at least the ones that can influence game design anyway) must be aware of this, or they will end up killing their own games. You can argue whether in any specific case devs should listen or not, but saying that popular opinion can be ignored because players don't understand game design is foolish. A game design may be brilliant when seen by a professional, but a dissatisfied customer won't care about it and will still leave. > > > > > > Of course, but a there's a LOT more to consider. Players' opinions vary, wildly. What you describe is extremely rare, because it would mean the designers are completely out of touch with basically all of their players. Which isn't true here either. There's a vocal minority unhappy about feeling excluded from raids, but that's what it is - a vocal minority. The vast majority of the players either raid or simply don't care about it and have fun otherwise. The game gives them plenty of opportunities for that. And wrong again. The mass majority of players are not vocal at all, as such, silence in no way means the players are content with the current situation, and it's a really.. really.. really.. bad mistake to make that kind of assumption. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Teach me, senpai, please. :lol: as per your request.. you have been schooled. > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > Please lets not waste their resources on something like this. There are already reasonable enough methods for legendary gear. In fact I would prefer them to be even more harsh to acquire. You may feel that way, but for me, and other casuals, we are being shoved off to WvW to farm legendary armor. Which takes up all my game time, just to make very minimal progress, and truth be told, it's killing the game mode. I was just doing dailies, and we have people all 3 teams waiting for the veteran wurm to spawn so we could get our dailies done. Only a matter of time Before we are doing camp and tower flip rotations, and cussing out the people who are wasting time defending, which will drive away the people that actually like the PvP part of WvW. There is no way this will end well for Anet to keep this path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. Let me offer a correction then ... it's not even they think they are right ... they ARE right, simply because of the fact that they are in control. if it's their game, they make the rules. You might not like them, but that's not a right or wrong issue. You can put away your sense of what is right and wrong, because that's NOT how these decisions are made. I expect no armchair dev to understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. > > Let me offer a correction then ... it's not even they think they are right ... they ARE right, simply because of the fact that they are in control. if it's their game, they make the rules. Nope. They made a decision, this in no way makes it the "right" decision, nor does it make it a "good" decision, many game developers have made poor and outright wrong decisions that have caused their game to and in some cases the whole company to spiral into decline. So they are not "right" by virtue of being in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Again, you don't understand, there isn't a right or wrong here. It's not an academic exercise in making the best options for giving people access to legendary loot. It's simply that they make the rules. Anyone attempting to associate 'correctness' to the way Anet has implemented rewards is just missing the mark so badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I am sure Paragon Studios would have a slight disagreement about that belief that there are No Right or Wrong choices in Game Development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Sorry ... Paragon Studio? Are they the GW2 devs? Not the last time I checked. Again, appealing to some idea that game failure is imminent because people think Anet didn't implement an end game loot reward system that appeases everyone ... that's just ridiculous. All studios make decisions that are good and bad for the games they develop. All that we can hope for is that enough of them are good enough so the game sustains. So far, Anet's done a pretty decent job doing that. Fearmongering doesn't make your position on this any more or less compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I don't understand that legendary gear is a necessity in the first place. The whole premise of legendary gear, other than the stat swap function has been set as a goal only for the most dedicated players. That legendary gear then someone "needs" to be available for more people or needs more paths sounds ridiculous if not completely contrary to the position of legendary gear in general. If anything, legendary gear is and always will be for a minority of the players. No matter how many routes it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. > > Let me offer a correction then ... it's not even they think they are right ... they ARE right, simply because of the fact that they are in control. Might makes right? Lol... are you serious? They have always been in control. And yet they haven't been always right. There were some spectacular failures as well. Ability to make decisions does not ensure those decisions will be good ones. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Again, you don't understand, there isn't a right or wrong here. It's not an academic exercise in making the best options for giving people access to legendary loot. It's simply that they make the rules. Anyone attempting to associate 'correctness' to the way Anet has implemented rewards is just missing the mark so badly. So, you're saying that since they make the rules it's impossible for them to make mistakes? I wonder, is it some special quality of Anet devs, or is it something shared by all game devs? And if it's the second one, why there's so many games that have failed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Sorry ... Paragon Studio? Are they the GW2 devs? Not the last time I checked. > So sad, that people refuse to learn from the mistakes of others, it's a handy skill that humans can do, and not need to make every mistake yourself along the road of life. Paragon was the makers of CoH, another one of NCsofts games. As Irony would have it, they were doing about the same sales as GW1, and well.. after some decision were made.. Arenanet is still here and Paragon is not. So yes.. very much Devs can make "Wrong" and "Bad" choices for the Survival of their Game and Studio. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Sorry ... Paragon Studio? Are they the GW2 devs? Not the last time I checked. > > All studios make decisions that are good and bad for the games they develop. All that we can hope for is that enough of them are good enough so the game sustains. So far, Anet's done a pretty decent job doing that. While we agree that good and bad choices get made, and often "bad" choices, especially those that cause fiscal loss are considered "Wrong" choices. The key word here is **Hope**. Now, where we disagree is on the idea that Anet is doing a "pretty decent job", see from my end, Anet abandoned their foundation principals, and I have been sent off to WvW due to their choices. To me, that is a bad choices. But that alone is not meaningful. What is meaningful, is that since the launch of HoT, Anet has dropped over 25 Million in sales annually and numbers don't lie, So at this point, it is not a question of _if a bad choice was made_ one has obviously been made.. the question is what did they do wrong. From my end, I am going to say _Abandoning their Foundation Ideals_ , and trying to appease hardcore gamers with exclusive content, as opposed to building a game that focused on finding ways to include their various population demographics. I am sure we shall disagree on that.. but have no illusions.. a mistake was made.. just a question of how bad is it, how bad it will become, and if they can correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 You only think they abandoned their foundation principles because you don't understand what they meant in the first place. Anet did not say "play how you want to get the loot you want". They simply said "play how you want" PERIOD; that's a statement not related to how you get rewarded, it's a statement about the freedom they gave us from holy trinity, nothing more. Furthermore, the content you refer to (raids?) is NOT exclusive or included to appease ONLY hardcore gamers either; all players have access to it and you don't need to be hardcore to be successful doing it. That's like saying RP emotes are exclusive to RP'ers ... and that's just an unreasonable way to think. Finally, it's not like there wasn't that level of content providing a focus on that 'hardcore' player in the game since day 1 anyways (it started with dungeons)... so pretending that all the sudden, Anet included content focused on a specific kind of player that abandoning some sense of inclusivity for all types of players is nonsense. That's not a disagreement, that's just you reading into something Anet said incorrectly to justify your desire for more legendary paths. I'm not saying Anet doesn't make mistakes, but I'm not making a self-serving argument here that says any drop in sales isn't attributed to any SPECIFIC mistake either or that more paths to leg. gear will address that. As far as I'm concerned, that's a nothing issue to even look at if the problem you want to highlight is a 25 million drop in sales since HoT. Like sticking your finger in a leaky dam. i'm not even convinced that some portion of this drop in revenue isn't just a consequence of the age of the game. I mean, that's not even necessarily failure, that's just people (expectantly) becoming tired of the game. In fact, that's a major consideration for the whole business model of the game. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see the continued development of this game at the levels we have today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > Mate, despite your beliefs, there's one undeniable fact - what you claim is right isn't what the devs *of this game* think is right. > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. > > > > Let me offer a correction then ... it's not even they think they are right ... they ARE right, simply because of the fact that they are in control. > Might makes right? Lol... are you serious? > They have always been in control. And yet they haven't been always right. There were some spectacular failures as well. Ability to make decisions does not ensure those decisions will be good ones. > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Again, you don't understand, there isn't a right or wrong here. It's not an academic exercise in making the best options for giving people access to legendary loot. It's simply that they make the rules. Anyone attempting to associate 'correctness' to the way Anet has implemented rewards is just missing the mark so badly. > > So, you're saying that since they make the rules it's impossible for them to make mistakes? I wonder, is it some special quality of Anet devs, or is it something shared by all game devs? And if it's the second one, why there's so many games that have failed? > I'm 100% serious ... look, this isn't some exercise where you get to vote in what you think is good ideas or have Anet revert ones you don't like because you won debate club. The bottom line is that Anet implements what they want. That's not might, that's just how it works. That's going to continue to be how it works if your best argument for more paths is "_I'm too lazy to do content I don't like to get loot I want_" (which BTW, is how MMO's tend to work for much of their rewards) Feel free to continually ignore reality. You can feel free to also try to tell me what I'm saying too. You should know that don't work with me. Why do we have so many failed games? I dunno. What's that got anything to do with this discussion at all? You're going to try to convince me you cleverly attributed THIS issue to how the game will fail in the future? OK well, you stick with that. You only have deflection left as discussion points? I'm not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 No.. But make no mistake, if this game goes the way of any of many other failed games.. you can rest assured that "GW2 Raids" will be right up there with SWG NGE.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Again, that's just fearmongering. It must be easy for you to predict the eventual demise of the game and attribute it to whatever suits your fancy to make your argument. Perhaps convenient even. Admittedly, no one will be able to argue you are wrong though and it's obvious to say that anything bad contributed to that demise, so you got us over that barrel. Still, I'm just going to fall back on the fact that this is a business and things aren't just done because they seem like great ideas. If the lack of resources results in not enough good things in the game to attract players and create revenue, then it's more likely the business model was not sufficient to sustain the game because some MMO's run on far fewer players than GW2 has and continue, even with active development. To think that something as insignificant as not enough paths to get a specific bit of kit is a major contribution to the playerbase that provides that revenue is pretty laughable, considering Anet has purposefully went out of their way to restrict the functional capability of Leg gear in the first place. Good try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Oh sure, game can still develop, I mean, after all, EQ is still around and just put out an expansion, and I would wager their numbers are only a shadow of what GW2 has. But then again, their Dev team is also a shadow of what GW2 has as well, and truth be told Daybreak is like the Godfather of the Limping Along MMO's whereas NCSoft on the other had, has a brutal and bloody history when it comes to MMO's that don't preform. Truth is, Developers are not catering to me by doing this, as sadly I don't think I personally would become rejuvenated to the game even if they did this. I am sure and I hope I only speak for myself in that regard, So there is that things may already be too late to consider as well. But, as I see it, the biggest problem with what is going on, is that there is a direction change with the game, and it feels like it has moved away from the core values that made the original game great, so.. by returning to those principals, what they might doing is keeping their own job.. which might be a bit more important to them then pleasing some lowly casual peasant like me or placating some hardcore meta junkie. Because if the trend stays as it is, the numbers keep going down, well, while I am sure the game won't die and that I GW2 will be around for many years to come, if you think development is limited now.. wait till the layoff start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I'm 100% serious ... look, this isn't some exercise where you get to vote in what you think is good ideas or have Anet revert ones you don't like because you won debate club. The bottom line is that Anet implements what they want. That's not might, that's just how it works. Oh, i agree. It doesn't mean however that they are going to always be making _good_ decisions, or that they will never go back on some of their decisions later on. And community feedback _is_ one of the factors that might influence a potential change in decisions. It _has_ happened before. So, we don't get to vote, but we _can_ give feedback. And that's what we do. And if you really thought that what you're saying is completely true and that our actions do not matter, you wouldn't even bother to argue with us. If you've really thought that what we're suggesting is so ridiculous that Anet would never even consider it, you'd never really bother to make more than one-two token posts. Just like almost noone argues against some of the really weird ideas that pop up on those forums all the time. Everybody knows those aren't worth arguing about. And yet here you are. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > That's going to continue to be how it works if your best argument for more paths is "_I'm too lazy to do content I don't like to get loot I want_" That's a really serious misrepresentation of the arguments brought up, which i'm certain you are aware of. > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Why do we have so many failed games? I dunno. What's that got anything to do with this discussion at all? You've just claimed that game devs cannot make bad decisions (because they are in control). So, if every decision made by game devs ever were good ones, why some of them result in failure? If what you claimed was true, there would be _no_ fails at all. Every game would be succesful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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