More “paths” to legendary gear...

[Lunateric.3708]

I'm honestly fine with them adding legendary armor to killing random open world mobs even though I'm sure someone will always complain about the acquisition method because that's how humans are. Only thing is the envoy skins remain raid exclusive because that was their purpose, any other legendary armor should either have a different skin or no unique skin at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I will do every JP, dungeon and world boss every week for 19 weeks, to get a skinless legendary armor set. As long as I don't have to step foot in a Raid, PvP or WvW mode. That is skill and dedication.

 

Replace legendary insights with something like this and keep the rest of the recipe intact (even Provisioner Tokens) and I would do this happily.

 

I have the resources to make a full legendary armor set. Everything but the Raid nonsense I don't want a part of. Raids don't work like PvE at all so I could never logically consider it PvE.

[Aridon.8362]

Yeah let's time gate the hell out of legendary armor so you'll get it in the next 30 years the game will be out. It worked so well with hell fire and radiant armor, I mean look around everyone you see has the radiant backpiece

[Aridon.8362]

> @"MashMash.1645" said:

> > @Swagger.1459 said:

> > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear for every mode (owpve, fractals, spvp, wvw, dungeons) so players can play how they want.

>

> In an ideal universe, with unlimited resources and devs, yes, this would be the way to go.

>

> But, so ANet tell us, that's not possible. Like with raid armor. "We can only do so much!", they cry.

>

> Except then they added PvP and WvW versions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> Being completely selfish, I'd like Fractal armor plz. I play that most, so that's all i care about lol.

 

Ray's fair enough but you gotta understand the skins for legendary armor in wvw is the same as ascended armor.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Zappix.7928" said:

> I also understand the people that have obtained legendary gear with LI's don't want to feel like what they've earned is diminished by expanding the ways to obtain this armor.

 

You mean the same people who sell titles and Legendary Insights and loot chests for legendary armor collections to other players?

 

Having several ways to the same goal fits perfectly into Anet's philosophy. You don't want to do Dungeons but need tokens? You can play the reward track for them. You can get legendary stuff from PvP, WvW and raids, a backpack from WvW and Fractals. With the new legendary Focus, you can even choose to do it in HoT or PoF. It would be obvious to add more ways of obtaining legendary armor, especially for playing fractals.

 

It doesn't even have to be the same skins, they are ugly anyway. I'm sure players would still try to get the armor in fractals if the skins were like the basic clothing you get when starting a character.

[Drew.1865]

Allow the player to chose where they want to play and give them a choice for rewards would be ideal.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Then you missed a ton of posts from active raiders saying, that PvE doesn't need a second legendary armor, because it already has one. Or saying, that if there _was_ some set like that, it'd need years of farming to complete.

It doesn't matter since saying that "it doesn't need one" is not an argument against it getting one. The statement "X doesn't need Y" could be made about many things and while it may be true it's also empty. Just because we don't "need" more SAB content doesn't mean that getting it is a bad thing. I've yet to see anyone actually arguing against it getting one, most points of conflict are either stuff like "getting a legendary set should take some dedication" or "skin X should stay exclusive to mode Y" but that's ultimately beside the point.

[Rhatha.2376]

The game's philosophy clearly changed significantly with HoT. I don't think raids really should have been added as content differently sized from a normal group to begin with. That said, I have done a fair bit of them, and they are by far the most difficult PvE content in the game, aside from maybe fractal CMs (haven't tried them yet). It's a carrot to get people in the door for sure. Raids take more organization, a sometimes less flexible time commitment, and a reasonably high level of play to get into. That's a lot of inertia to overcome. Ultimately someone only there for the rewards will get them and get out, but I suspect most people need that nudge to get them going, but will find something they like and will keep playing even after they finish getting their main shiny if they find a group of like-minded people and have fun getting there. I'm sure there are some people that will slog it out and never touch them again, but in order to finish the armor, realistically, you're not going to buy 150+ runs, you're going to find some kind of group to run with (training discords are great for this), and at most worry about killing the hardest bosses once, then slowly getting LI from the simpler fights.

 

As far as legendaries go, there should definitely be a set of armor attainable through other PvE.. probably fractals, since they're still supported. Maybe similar to Aurora. It should not use the raid skin, though, but should have its own. Also, it should still have similar requirements to the existing ones, e.g. get all your gifts, dipping a toe into many game modes to do so, and the inevitable gold sink. The PvP and WvW versions should definitely get their own skins as well. It's awesome to go running by someone with Ad Infinitum, or the WvW or PvP backpieces, and be able to see what they've accomplished in their preferred game mode.

 

I get the arguments that the difficult content isn't for everyone, and having alternatives, whether through another game mode, an easier path, etc. is a lot of what GW2 was built around, and that seems to be true.. but all the comments calling for just removing all the incentive from a game mode entirely because someone doesn't like it is pretty shortsighted. There are people that hate open world stuff too, and only really play for the dungeon/fractal experience, or the WvW experience, or whatever. We should be trying to think of ways to improve the experience for everyone.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Rhatha.2376" said:

> The game's philosophy clearly changed significantly with HoT. I don't think raids really should have been added as content differently sized from a normal group to begin with. That said, I have done a fair bit of them, and they are by far the most difficult PvE content in the game, aside from maybe fractal CMs (haven't tried them yet). It's a carrot to get people in the door for sure. Raids take more organization, a sometimes less flexible time commitment, and a reasonably high level of play to get into. That's a lot of inertia to overcome. Ultimately someone only there for the rewards will get them and get out, but I suspect most people need that nudge to get them going, but will find something they like and will keep playing even after they finish getting their main shiny if they find a group of like-minded people and have fun getting there. I'm sure there are some people that will slog it out and never touch them again, but in order to finish the armor, realistically, you're not going to buy 150+ runs, you're going to find some kind of group to run with (training discords are great for this), and at most worry about killing the hardest bosses once, then slowly getting LI from the simpler fights.

>

> As far as legendaries go, there should definitely be a set of armor attainable through other PvE.. probably fractals, since they're still supported. Maybe similar to Aurora. It should not use the raid skin, though, but should have its own. Also, it should still have similar requirements to the existing ones, e.g. get all your gifts, dipping a toe into many game modes to do so, and the inevitable gold sink. The PvP and WvW versions should definitely get their own skins as well. It's awesome to go running by someone with Ad Infinitum, or the WvW or PvP backpieces, and be able to see what they've accomplished in their preferred game mode.

>

> I get the arguments that the difficult content isn't for everyone, and having alternatives, whether through another game mode, an easier path, etc. is a lot of what GW2 was built around, and that seems to be true.. but all the comments calling for just removing all the incentive from a game mode entirely because someone doesn't like it is pretty shortsighted. There are people that hate open world stuff too, and only really play for the dungeon/fractal experience, or the WvW experience, or whatever. We should be trying to think of ways to improve the experience for everyone.

 

If you think raids are the hardest content in this game, then I will plainly say it. You are wrong. Even Aurora required more challenge than raids through the completion of some achievements that are quite tedious or fiddly.

 

As for raids, there are a slew of bosses in each wing that take very little investment to get kills for. Very little time to learn, and very little time to find a group for. If you can't find a group for bosses like VG, Gorseval, Sab, KC, Escort, w5 escort, w5 towers, and the first 3 bosses of w4, it is pure laziness. Thats 10-11 LI a week on the easiest bosses in the game. Some of them are even easier than the average t4 fractal.

 

MO, Cairn, and Gorseval, are basically giant dps golems. There is no challenge in killing them, and I'm tired of people making these things seem hard, when they aren't.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Then you missed a ton of posts from active raiders saying, that PvE doesn't need a second legendary armor, because it already has one. Or saying, that if there _was_ some set like that, it'd need years of farming to complete.

> It doesn't matter since saying that "it doesn't need one" is not an argument against it getting one. The statement "X doesn't need Y" could be made about many things and while it may be true it's also empty. Just because we don't "need" more SAB content doesn't mean that getting it is a bad thing. I've yet to see anyone actually arguing against it getting one, most points of conflict are either stuff like "getting a legendary set should take some dedication" or "skin X should stay exclusive to mode Y" but that's ultimately beside the point.

Then you really haven't been paying attention. These aren't arguments that the raiders don't need more paths. These are arguments that other paths _shouldn't_ exist. That there should be only one path to legendary armor - through raids. Or, that if other pve path were to exist, it should have ridiculously high requirements (and by ridiculously high, i meant numbers that are clearly made with the intent to be so high to be not realistic, like asking for 400 000 repetitions of a single content. For a single piece of armor).

 

Those _are_ voices against non-raid pve legendary armor paths. Contrary to what you claim (or think), there's a not so small number of raiders that are strongly against non-raiders having access to legendary armor of any kind, because (as those raiders think) the non-raiders _do not deserve it_.

 

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Contrary to what you claim (or think), there's a not so small number of raiders that are strongly against non-raiders having access to legendary armor of any kind, because (as those raiders think) the non-raiders _do not deserve it_.

 

Where are those raiders whenever the topic of raid selling is discussed here? Where's the outcry of the raiding community about those among them that sell raids, titles, items, LIs to enyone who has coin? I doubt that there is a "not so small number" of raiders who have a problem with non-raiders getting legendary armor. If there is, they are suspiciously silent.

[yann.1946]

Well it never was raid armor anyway. It is HOT armor. For which you basicly had to play all different parts of HOT (pve).

 

 

[Tails.9372]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Then you really haven't been paying attention. These aren't arguments that the raiders don't need more paths. These are arguments that other paths shouldn't exist. ... Contrary to what you claim (or think), there's a not so small number of raiders that are strongly against non-raiders having access to legendary armor of any kind, because (as those raiders think) the non-raiders do not deserve it.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to what I said. Again: saying that it "doesn't need one" is just an empty statement, not an argument against it. One might just as well say that the game didn't "need" stuff like jumping puzzles, mounts or [insert pretty much anything here] and while technically correct it doesn't say anything about whether or not implementing the thing in question was overall a good/bad thing. Also, I never said that no one is against it (just like how you will always find someone against pretty much anything no matter the topic if you search long enough) I said most players wouldn't be against it just like how most OW PvE players wouldn't be against legendary PvP weapons and that no one argues against it (which no one really does).

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Then you really haven't been paying attention. These aren't arguments that the raiders don't need more paths. These are arguments that other paths shouldn't exist. ... Contrary to what you claim (or think), there's a not so small number of raiders that are strongly against non-raiders having access to legendary armor of any kind, because (as those raiders think) the non-raiders do not deserve it.

> Maybe you haven't been paying attention to what I said. Again: saying that it "doesn't need one" is just an empty statement, not an argument against it.

"Argument" as a "voice arguing for/against something". I never said that argument was a meaningful one and was based on anything except emotions, or that it should be listened to (personally, i do not agree with it). It doesn't change the fact that a large group of raiders that actually partake in discussions about raids, _are_ against other avenues for legendary armor in PvE. I dont know how widely shared that opinion is among those that do not post, because i don't know the opinion of those raiders (because they _do not_ post).

 

[Sombra.3246]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

>

> Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

 

Preach brother preach

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Sombra.3246" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

> >

> > Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

>

> Preach brother preach

 

Raids is the future fun reward for PvE. This dude didn't understand Mike's statement at all. Also this statement was made years ago.

 

Only a person that clearly is out of touch with the game would think their philosophy on everything is EXACTLY the same as when Mike was game director. This statement is almost in applicable now.

[Sondergaard.8469]

I see a lot of "No it should be a really difficult annoying grindfest", but not a lot of people asking the important question. Is it fun? The journey itself should be enjoyable even if it takes a while. In my experience, it's not fun.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> I see a lot of "No it should be a really difficult annoying grindfest", but not a lot of people asking the important question. Is it fun? The journey itself should be enjoyable even if it takes a while. In my experience, it's not fun.

 

And? Fun is subjective and should never be in an argument in the first place. However we can measure what people want, and generally players want grind no matter how much they complain about it. Games with grind in some form always do better than games without. It's scientifically reproducable.

 

This isn't an argument man, it's a personal problem"

 

If you don't find the experience fun, or the grind, stop playing MMORPG's. This genre is built on them.

[Sombra.3246]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Sombra.3246" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > Would be nice to have a path to all legendary gear (weapons, armors, trinkets and back pieces) for every mode (owpve, dungeons, fractals, raids, spvp, wvw)... so players can play how they want.

> > >

> > > Just remember folks... “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” - Mike O’Brien

> >

> > Preach brother preach

>

> Raids is the future fun reward for PvE. This dude didn't understand Mike's statement at all. Also this statement was made years ago.

>

> Only a person that clearly is out of touch with the game would think their philosophy on everything is EXACTLY the same as when Mike was game director. This statement is almost in applicable now.

 

This logic behind it is that GW2 was made for people to have fun in all aspects of the game. I like to do a little of everything a bit of pve mostly fractals, ranked pvp and wvw.

 

I am a very experienced player, but I have yet to complete any raids. This is not because of my skills or lack of skills.

This is because I am not part of any raiding guild and do not want to have to be in a raiding guild and be on discord to be able to finish it.

Raiding is a great addition to the game don't get me wrong. But the way it is set up now only a select few are doing raids constantly and of those players most are part of dedicated raiding guild.

 

All other players who do not take part in raids have no chance of ever getting the legendary armor for example. If I really wanted it I would have to be forced to join a raiding guild play meta and have meta gear and do raid training just to be able to complete 1 wing to start work on getting a legendary.

 

I think there should be more options instead of being forced to raid to get the legendary armor with unique skin that most players want.

PvP and WvW already give you a possibility to get legendary armor, but not with a unique legendary skin. Maybe if they give them a unique legendary skin more people will try to get legendary armor in other game modes. Maybe they can also add a unique legendary armor for dungeons to make them relevant again.

[Sondergaard.8469]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> > I see a lot of "No it should be a really difficult annoying grindfest", but not a lot of people asking the important question. Is it fun? The journey itself should be enjoyable even if it takes a while. In my experience, it's not fun.

>

> And? Fun is subjective and should never be in an argument in the first place. However we can measure what people want, and generally players want grind no matter how much they complain about it. Games with grind in some form always do better than games without. It's scientifically reproducable.

>

> This isn't an argument man, it's a personal problem"

>

> If you don't find the experience fun, or the grind, stop playing MMORPG's. This genre is built on them.

 

I see a lot of people in this thread that disagree. But I digress, my point is moot by default simply because the argument is "That's the way it's always been done, there's no such thing as an alternative."

[Laila Lightness.8742]

My sugggestion would be remove legy gear from raidd make it buyable karma

[Zappix.7928]

Make raids soloable, but reduce the rewards and difficulty, that way people get to enjoy the story attached to them and have a weekly cap on how many LI's they can get. They did this with the end story mission in the core game, they can do it again. That way it's more rewarding if you group up (harder as well). This solution should please everyone. You no complain now, I'm a genius!

[Faaris.8013]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> > I see a lot of "No it should be a really difficult annoying grindfest", but not a lot of people asking the important question. Is it fun? The journey itself should be enjoyable even if it takes a while. In my experience, it's not fun.

>

> And? Fun is subjective and should never be in an argument in the first place. However we can measure what people want, and generally players want grind no matter how much they complain about it. Games with grind in some form always do better than games without. It's scientifically reproducable.

 

What people want is often not the same thing that creates fun for them. That's why developers mostly ignore what players "want" and do something that creates fun instead. Fun is as subjective as "challenge" and yet we can measure it in some ways. They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and yet, we can measure what a specific group of people consider beautiful. It differs from culture to culture, but it can be measured.

 

The same can be said of fun in games. Players of Eve Online might have a different view of what's fun than GW2 players, but it's still measurable. Content that produces fun is played more often than content that is less fun would be an easy measurement (if rewards and diffulty are similar). Anet certainly has some metrics to measure how much fun their content creates. Also, fun and grind are not exclusive. There are people who consider grinding fun.

 

Now, please link your scientific findings about grinding and "doing better".

[Sondergaard.8469]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > @"Sondergaard.8469" said:

> > > I see a lot of "No it should be a really difficult annoying grindfest", but not a lot of people asking the important question. Is it fun? The journey itself should be enjoyable even if it takes a while. In my experience, it's not fun.

> >

> > And? Fun is subjective and should never be in an argument in the first place. However we can measure what people want, and generally players want grind no matter how much they complain about it. Games with grind in some form always do better than games without. It's scientifically reproducable.

>

> What people want is often not the same thing that creates fun for them. That's why developers mostly ignore what players "want" and do something that creates fun instead. Fun is as subjective as "challenge" and yet we can measure it in some ways. They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and yet, we can measure what a specific group of people consider beautiful. It differs from culture to culture, but it can be measured.

>

> The same can be said of fun in games. Players of Eve Online might have a different view of what's fun than GW2 players, but it's still measurable. Content that produces fun is played more often than content that is less fun would be an easy measurement (if rewards and diffulty are similar). Anet certainly has some metrics to measure how much fun their content creates. Also, fun and grind are not exclusive. There are people who consider grinding fun.

>

> Now, please link your scientific findings about grinding and "doing better".

 

To your point, I found the journey to get the Griffon quite fun. It used similar mechanics to the legendary journey, but there was more story and depth to each of the stages and elements that made the actual adventure, and discovery portion, much more enjoyable.

 

If they created a similar journey for the legendary items and didn't lock them behind raids, I'd be very happy with that solution.

[Alehin.3746]

No. Stop being lazy and go work for things.