Teamkiller.4315 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So Ohoni is advocating for people who are open world players who like instances content who are desperate to get envoy armor **and** want to experience raids but who are unwilling to self improve. He is basically advocating for only himself, 5g to whoever finds someone else that fits all those criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Yes, I know how statistics work, which is why nothing you've presented is data. It's data from a quite large sample though. For someone that knows about statistics... > Agreed, as always, but we have absolutely no measure of how many "players with no interest in instanced content" there are. "Players who have cleared Arah" is obviously no standard for that. Players that cleared the other level 80 dungeon (Crucible of Eternity) are very similar to Arah levels, heck all the other dungeons with the exception of Ascalonian Catacombs are in the same category. Got some other thing to measure how many the "players with no interest in instanced content" are? There is evidence, not conclusive but there is something, pointing that it's a small number, smaller than Raid numbers. Do you have at least small evidence that it's not? > After you. Your position: > My position, which you've proven afraid to address directly, is that the population of GW2 players who do enjoy spending some of their time in instanced content, would particiopate in raids if they were more casual and accessible, even if the existing raids turn them off. I believe you know this to be true as well, which is why you do everything you can to avoid addressing it directly. Got anything to back that up? I'm not afraid of addressing your position, I'm finding your position to be flawed and require something to back your position up. Otherwise we both claim positions and stop there. (edit: To avoid confusion: I'm contesting the number of people fitting that category, not that they exist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > >Citation/source/something needed here. > > After you. That's not how burden of proof works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Yes, I know how statistics work, which is why nothing you've presented is data. > > It's data from a quite large sample though. For someone that knows about statistics... It's data from quite a large sample, yes. More importantly, however, it's data from a sample that is non-scientifically compiled, and also data that does not support the premise you attach to it. If you polled a political question at the party convention for a specific party, for example, you could acquire "a quite large sample," but it would be useless in applying it to the population as a whole, because the participants in that data collection would have their own biases relative to the general population. And to the second point, Efficiency does not have data for "people who would easy mode raid." It has data points which you *assert* would somehow correlate with "people who would easy mode raid," but there is no evidence for that assumption, so you could as easily say "everyone with at least one Fractal Relic would definitely play easy mode raids." You can't just point to random statistics on an unscientific site and say "here's data that backs my position!" > > Agreed, as always, but we have absolutely no measure of how many "players with no interest in instanced content" there are. "Players who have cleared Arah" is obviously no standard for that. > > Players that cleared the other level 80 dungeon (Crucible of Eternity) are very similar to Arah levels, heck all the other dungeons with the exception of Ascalonian Catacombs are in the same category. All dungeons are level 80 dungeons. >Got some other thing to measure how many the "players with no interest in instanced content" are? There is evidence, not conclusive but there is something, pointing that it's a small number, smaller than Raid numbers. Do you have at least small evidence that it's not? Again, you have *zero* evidence. I'm afraid I can't get less than zero evidence. We'll both have to settle for having zero evidence. > Your position: > > My position, which you've proven afraid to address directly, is that the population of GW2 players who do enjoy spending some of their time in instanced content, would particiopate in raids if they were more casual and accessible, even if the existing raids turn them off. I believe you know this to be true as well, which is why you do everything you can to avoid addressing it directly. > > Got anything to back that up? I'm not afraid of addressing your position, I'm finding your position to be flawed and require something to back your position up. Otherwise we both claim positions and stop there. Nope. I just believe it's the most reasonable position to take based on the evidence, and I believe that you fully agree, you just don't *like* that you agree, so you try to obfuscate instead. I'm asking you to stop so that we can have an honest discussion about the topic. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > >Citation/source/something needed here. > > > > After you. > > That's not how burden of proof works. Exactly my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > It's data from quite a large sample, yes. More importantly, however, it's data from a sample that is non-scientifically compiled No the compilation is done but the one presenting them, I went to great lengths to make the data more valid, by eliminating those who cannot Raid from the total for example. > Efficiency does not have data for "people who would easy mode raid." It has data points which you *assert* would somehow correlate with "people who would easy mode raid," but there is no evidence for that assumption, so you could as easily say "everyone with at least one Fractal Relic would definitely play easy mode raids." You can't just point to random statistics on an unscientific site and say "here's data that backs my position!" By following common sense and logic it's not so hard to correlate the data with the result. As to your last part, I at least have *some* data to support my position, where is yours? You've been debating the validity of the data presented to you, yet you failed to provide your own that prove your point. So, once again, where is YOUR data? > Again, you have *zero* evidence. I'm afraid I can't get less than zero evidence. We'll both have to settle for having zero evidence. Can you stop with the zero evidence non-sense. It's data proving MY point, at least it exists, where is yours that support YOUR point? > Nope. I just believe it's the most reasonable position to take based on the evidence, and I believe that you fully agree, you just don't *like* that you agree, so you try to obfuscate instead. I'm asking you to stop so that we can have an honest discussion about the topic. There can be no honest discussion about things you "claim" and never back up. > Exactly my point. OK you are the one that want a change. It's on your end to prove that this change is NEEDED, so the burden of proof is on you. So go ahead start giving us data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > >Citation/source/something needed here. > > > > > > After you. > > > > That's not how burden of proof works. > > Exactly my point. > Are you just responding without remembering what the discussion was about, so you can look like you're responding to everything? What you just said makes no sense. "I'd like to order some poutine please" "After you" "Wait what? That's not how ordering food works." "Exactly my point" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 This dialogue reminds me of a "Change my mind" meme. Literally. Dear Ohoni, burden of proof falls on you. You have been provided with data, you ask for sources when you provide none. And taken from wiki: The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation of a party in a trial to produce the evidence that will prove the claims they have made against the other party. The burden of proof is always on the person who brings a claim in a dispute. So... Yeah. Maddoctor gave his data, however limited it may seen to you. Your turn. Otherwise, this is just trolling / topic that should really die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilamanjaro.2705 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Sure they can. I mean think about it, if every raider left this game, that would be what around a10%± loss to the population.. I am sure this game could survive just fine with 90%± it's population still active. > > Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. That is the most arrogant kitten i've heard yet. I "average" mathematically over 6 hours a day on this game based on my current /age. It took me 2 years to swallow my self-will and begrudgingly watch way too many video's, and clear my first raid. Am I happy i did? absolutely! If I had not raided would my 6 plus hours a day and weekly gaming budget (yup I help with the bills around here, like countless other "filthy casuals") Most casuals i am frieds with are the same way, so don't try to think you are somehow more valuable to this game because you can clear a few raids. Elite much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > How can you say this in a other thread but here ask for a source for you not representing the wider community. You have literally told someone that their views and experiences aren't indicative of what the community is feeling yet perpetuate you speak for so many based on the very same. > > Because I am not making an unreasonable claim. > Sorry, but this just comes across as:"I get to be right because I'm me." There is no "reasonable claim" or "unreasonable claim" until proven on this diverse a subject. If one or the other side of this argument was so clear, there would be no argument. Thus we have to assume every persons opinion is equally valid and they represent an equal size of the player base: them selves. Unless they provide metrics and data which might shine a broader light on a part of the player base. Until then your claim is just as valid as any one else, so please speak for yourself only. That said, this thread has been going round and round for ages with both sides being represented by maybe 5-10 people per side at best. Currently it's nothing more than people wanting to claim right of opinion over someone else. Fine, here is my take on it: **A.) mechanical experience of boss fights is of paramount importance even above knowing your class and rotation.** After a 5 month break even with getting thrown in the deep end with new class rotations and no practice I had no issue pulling my weight and not dying on any wing past and current week. Sure I wasn't bringing Snow Crow or Quantify numbers performance wise but I was well above the required performance for smooth clears. My take away: easy mode raids will do nothing for the harder fights because in order for them to be easier mechanics would have to be changed thus making them useless as practice. **B.) Easy Raids because people want loot and skins** -> this is what it has always been about, glad people are finally honest enough to admit this. I doubt arenanet will want to invest resources into old raids not to mention even new skins for old content. Even less when a net benefit is not guaranteed and a net less to the game might occur with fracturing the player base even more (see LFR in WoW). **C.) another PvE legendary armor with unique skin** - honestly I would love it simply because it would give more bling to work towards. I don't think it will get added due to other things being far more important. It should not be part of raids though, maybe fractals or some kind of mental open world journey which would have to be insanely expensive. Performance wise the spvp legendary armor is easy enough to acquire with minimal effort and cost, simply a seasonal lockout. **D.) making raids more accessible** - the actual reason behind this subject and topic. Better LFG, more tools to allow people to find like minded players, guilds, training runs and communities. **E.) elitism and raids and spill over into fractals** - not happening, elitism has always been part of dungeons and fractals way before raids were even announced. Stop bringing this nonsense up. It's simply not true. As with dungeons and fractals in the past, don't join elitist groups or make your own. Or better yet, JOIN A GUILD WITH NICE PEOPLE! There, now everyone feel free to circle argue for the next 5 months. I swear some people are so present on the forums, there is no way you don't have the time to actually find a raid guild and raid. If you have 12 hours per day to monitor a game forum, you have the time to clear some of the easier raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > > > > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > > > > > > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > > > > > > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. > > > > > > It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. > > > > And yet you play GW2. as opposed to a hardcore MMO... something is not adding up. > > You do realise theirs more to a game then the dificulty right? I do.. but then again you never found me crying about how easy this game was and that it needed more difficulty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > Nevermind that these are just the reasons that *you* don't like raiding, not the reasons that *people* don't like raiding. 90% of people who don't currently raid won't raid no matter what you do. > > Source? > > Just FYI, this has been proven false in other games that used difficulty tiers with their content, as this did increase by a huge margin the number of people that got involved in Raid and Raid like content. The best known example of this would be WoW/ But there are other lesser known games that also went the rout of difficulty tiers for their content, and it not only directly increased participation overall among all difficulty tiers, it also increased training runs by casuals players to get other casual players involved in those modes at the lower/easy settings. Just in case anyone wants to stop bickering about the source of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. > > > > > > > > > > Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it > > > > > > > > > > But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would you cry like an inconsolable child if they put an option for "Easy" into Dark Souls ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd of beaten it in 15 minutes and then never thought about it again as opposed to it being my favorite game of all time and having completely changed how I view video games. My life would absolutely be lessened if Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had an easy mode, which is exactly what would happen for most players and raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So if they had put in an easy mode.. you would not have challenged yourself to play the Hard or Normal Version.. fascinating. > > > > > > > > > > > > Same reason why I never bothered fighting CM Mordremoth. There's no risk real of failure. There's always a safety net of the easy mode to fall back on. The danger of missing out, that these enemies are too strong for me makes them interesting. Matthias, and Xera, and Gorseval, Deimos and Dhuum are all more interesting because they're actually as threatening in game as they allegedly are story wise. Part of why the Elder Dragons are so uninteresting as antagonists is because they're supposed to be these huge world ending threats but in game they'll always be so weak that anyone can beat them without any difficulty. > > > > > > > > > > Let me see if I have this right, because you can't bring yourself to do hard mode, you feel that an Easy Mode should not exist. > > > > > > > > > > That has got to be.. the worst rational I have ever read on this topic.. and it's not even the first time I have read it, but the rational still remains the worst I have heard. > > > > > > > > It's not that I can't bring myself to do a hard mode, so much that removing the potentiality for failure makes it uninteresting. > > > > > > And yet you play GW2. as opposed to a hardcore MMO... something is not adding up. > > > > You do realise theirs more to a game then the dificulty right? > > I do.. but then again you never found me crying about how easy this game was and that it needed more difficulty You missed the point completely, haven't you? 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STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Also, not that I think Anet will do anything, as they have openly said they will not revise raids, nor do I care if they do (I would fall into the supposed 90% that would not do raids no matter what Anet did, where @"Ohoni.6057" would give raids a try and even drag along as many friends as he could into them, if they put in an easy mode.. so, given that it's just been @"Ohoni.6057" and myself arguing for the casual front, just from this limited sampling, we can see that at least 50% of casuals would give raids another go if they put in an easy mode). But, just a bit of info for @"Sarrs.4831" , if there comes a point, when all the people not getting into raids, would not get into them or at least try them again, if Anet put in an Easy Mode, this would be a very bad omen for Anet, as it would mean that players no longer want to even play their content, no matter how accessible it may become. Now, that means they have irrevocably alienated that entire player-base to that game mode, which, since raids were a new construct to the game, this would make making any new type of content they hope to add in the future ill received before it even launched, unless they made a big deal that it was not anything like raids, as that 90% would not even try that other content. That is not a good place to be as a game developer when you have a huge jaded population. Just saying. And while.. hell you might be right.. if you wanted this game to keep going, you would want to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > Do you care? > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > to chase some loot? He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. How hard is that to get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"Assic.2746" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids, **but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there**. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game. > > > > So once again it just boils down to the shinies. > Isn't that what this thread has been about since almost the very beginning? People who want the shinies but don't want to put in any effort? > > I really have to applaud people like Feanor who somehow possess the patience to constantly refute all the falsehoods that are spread here again and again. At that rate, I would have gone mad long ago. > > So what you are saying essentially is "I have these toys because I wanted/had time to spend hours to get them but people who do not have the time/willingness/grindiness/find it less enjoyable etc" automatically are less than you because they don't want/enjoy spending that kind of time doing something but they would like to have an alternative way of getting "shinies" too but they are somehow less valid or less important than you? Interesting. I think there'd be a lot less complaining if there were other options that didn't involve other game modes. In fact, you wouldn't be having this argument if things weren't being constantly locked between various "modes" in the game. If you could get shinies other ways and with your own effort the argument wouldn't exist at all if it was truly about the shinies. Some of us just want to play and have fun, we don't want to miss out on the story but we also don't have the time/energy to put in hours upon hours on a video game. It's not a job, it's supposed to be fun and grinding IS NOT fun (well for quite a few of us). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > > > Do you care? > > > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > to chase some loot? > > He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. > > How hard is that to get? Well apparently it's pretty hard for some people to get. But, Anet won't fix anything, they said as much. And truth is.. more players are forced to do content they do not enjoy, the likely they will be to move to some other game. I know I have my eye on a few other games already. We shall see how they deal at launch, Bless tanked hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > @"Assic.2746" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids, **but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there**. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game. > > > > > > So once again it just boils down to the shinies. > > Isn't that what this thread has been about since almost the very beginning? People who want the shinies but don't want to put in any effort? > > > > I really have to applaud people like Feanor who somehow possess the patience to constantly refute all the falsehoods that are spread here again and again. At that rate, I would have gone mad long ago. > > > > > > So what you are saying essentially is "I have these toys because I wanted/had time to spend hours to get them but people who do not have the time/willingness/grindiness/find it less enjoyable etc" automatically are less than you because they don't want/enjoy spending that kind of time doing something but they would like to have an alternative way of getting "shinies" too but they are somehow less valid or less important than you? > > Interesting. > > I think there'd be a lot less complaining if there were other options that didn't involve other game modes. In fact, you wouldn't be having this argument if things weren't being constantly locked between various "modes" in the game. If you could get shinies other ways and with your own effort the argument wouldn't exist at all if it was truly about the shinies. > > Some of us just want to play and have fun, we don't want to miss out on the story but we also don't have the time/energy to put in hours upon hours on a video game. It's not a job, it's supposed to be fun and grinding IS NOT fun (well for quite a few of us). Getting acceptably good at raids from the skill level the average player is at does not take much longer if at all than making your first legendary. Not really sure if i see a huge issue honestly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. Yes. That should not be equaled with hardcore approach however. > Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Actually, as far as i remember, whales are mostly either semi-casual (long playing time, but more casual approach) or locust players (high playing time and engagement, but extremely low loyalty and high turnover/burnout rate). The second type is mostly irrelevant for MMORPGs (but _extremely_ relevant for many browser-based games, whose business models revolve around exactly that kind of approach). With dolphins it's similar, but there's a higher percentage of hardcores there. Many hardcores are minnows, _unless_ the game posesses a strong p2w element (which is not the case in gw2). That's in general. In gw2, being able to buy gems with gold is likely to cause real cas spendings of hardcores to be even lower. In general (if we ignore the p2w possibility), most money doesn't come from the hardcore crowd. It comes from semi-casual players. And while most of the pure casual crowd are minnows, without any significant direct economical impact, those players are also extremely important. Not because they bring in any money (they don't), but because without them, the players that _do_ bring in money will leave. Get rid of hardcores, and the game will carry on (even if the income will be less). Get rid of casuals, and the game will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferelwing.8463 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > > > > > Do you care? > > > > > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > > > > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > > > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > > > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > > to chase some loot? > > > > He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. > > > > How hard is that to get? > > Well apparently it's pretty hard for some people to get. But, Anet won't fix anything, they said as much. > > And truth is.. more players are forced to do content they do not enjoy, the likely they will be to move to some other game. I know I have my eye on a few other games already. We shall see how they deal at launch, Bless tanked hard. I wasn't a fan of the idea that I would have to do World vs World but once I got into it, I found I enjoyed it more than I did playing PVE. If I hadn't had to go into WvW to get the Gift of Battle I wouldn't have and I wouldn't have given the mode a chance. So in that way I am glad that I had to go. I've really enjoyed lots of aspects (I'm still not so big on killing people but having siege weapons and building/taking things... FUN!) I'm also someone who likes to "fraternize" with the enemy (I leave them pie or we have dance parties outside of keeps for fun on days when it's not super important ie score is set). On the other hand, I've lost my interest in PVE because of the fact that more and more of the content is group based. Which would be fine but it's difficult for me to feel comfortable in groups, I don't want to do discord, I don't have any interest in joining randoms. Unfortunately, the majority of the people I started playing with have left the game or have people they are already in groups with... So that leaves open area content which to be honest? It's boring. I completed all the achievements and I no longer want to do the ones left. I don't mind doing the bounties If I'm following a commander that I joined up with, and I can follow directions etc and I'm pretty decent at my classes, but my twitch reflexes are going to be slower (age). So, I am sad that there aren't more PVE options to get Legendary gear (outside of weapons). I enjoyed finishing the PVE stuff for Living Worlds Season 3 and getting my 1st legendary from that. If there were more options to get gear by doing PVE content like that I would do it in a heartbeat. On the other hand now that I'm playing WvW I have an option to get Legendary Armor, it'd be nice if it had cool skins but I don't really care about that as much as being able to choose the different stats and test them out which is (in my opinion) more relevant in PvP and WvW rather than in PVE. It would have made more sense had Anet given "cool armor skins" to the people whose gear changes every patch (WvW and PvP) vs those that seem to change via expansion. (Currently PVE is pretty much Zerkers vs Condi. It never changes from those two. You have no need to build any of the other types of gear because your stats do the most DPS off one or the other of those two and it's kinda boring). WvW/PvP on the other hand you have to take into account survivability etc. so more build choices and more build options depending on what you need your class to do (ie do you want to roam, do you want to bunker, do you want to join in zergs/raids ect). There should be more options for "shinies" rather than locked behind different modes. You get legendary weapons that are NOT locked behind different modes but you get stuck having your choices limited when playing PVE. Add in the time sink and you've got problems. I liked some of the suggestions for "easy mode". I would give those a try (wasted 4 hours wiped each time at VG and as it was a craptastic experience didn't want to repeat or try again.) I want to try new things but wasting 4 hours on something and not achieving isn't exactly something I am willing to do nor is it a reasonable thing to ask of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > You do realise theirs more to a game then the dificulty right? Isn't that the very point behind the easy mode idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > You do realise theirs more to a game then the dificulty right? > Isn't that the very point behind the easy mode idea? > Considering that easy mode is directly subverting the very core idea behind raids (if we are to agree that raids are meant as challenging group content if not the most challenging group content) and that most people who are in favor of easy mode have stated they basically want the shinnies and couldn't care less about the actual game mode, I'd have to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Actually, as far as i remember, whales are mostly either semi-casual (long playing time, but more casual approach) or locust players (high playing time and engagement, but extremely low loyalty and high turnover/burnout rate). The second type is mostly irrelevant for MMORPGs (but _extremely_ relevant for many browser-based games, whose business models revolve around exactly that kind of approach). With dolphins it's similar, but there's a higher percentage of hardcores there. Many hardcores are minnows, _unless_ the game posesses a strong p2w element (which is not the case in gw2). I don't think there is a distinction on the whale or dolphin population based on what type of content a player likes to play. The deciding factor is player loyalty and engagement, a player that plays multiple games at once is less likely to spend money on a game. A player that plays only a single game faithfully is more likely to spend money on that game. And there is anything in between those. The key is to convert players by giving them content they like, so they continue playing your game and not go play the games of others. It's why mmorpgs are so diverse games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > >This will already increase the average waiting times, which will drive more players to switch, snowballing the process. Note that the process happens as I describe it without a single unhappy raider. Therefore, your conclusion "if players switch then that's what they prefer* is baseless. You're either missing the whole point of my objection, or you're misinterpreting it on purpose. > > > > > > > > > > Let me ask you this: Say there is a player who, right now, is raiding. He's cleared every boss at least once, and every week he goes out and does at least a few raids, grinding his way toward whatever goal he has. But he definitely *does not enjoy the experience.* He is not like you, he does not enjoy the things you do, he is in it for the loot, because the raid is the ONLY place to get certain loot, but he genuinely hates the time he spends doing so, it is not fun, it is not a game, it is a *chore,* and it constantly erodes his sense of enjoyment of the game. > > > > > > > > > > Do you care? > > > > > > > > > > Do you want that player to be happy? And I don't mean "I wish he could be made happy by feeling the way I feel about raids," I mean, do you want *him* to be happy, even accepting that he will *never* enjoy raids the way you enjoy raids? > > > > > > > > > > Assuming not, why not? > > > > > > > > My question would rather be if doing the content is destroying his pleasure of the game why would he do the content. > > > > > > > > I understand the desire for loot but if this actually corrodes their fun in the game they shouldn't do it period. > > > > > > > > Imaging somebody ordering a glass of beer at a bar taking a sip and vomiting from the taste and then continue drinking and at the telling the bartender how horrible it was. I would have no sympathy with such a person. > > > > > > > > Of course the argument about HOT armour will arise but i do question should we care about the person who sucks the fun out of the game for himself > > > > to chase some loot? > > > > > > He's doing it because he doesn't have any other way of getting the reward he wants to have. As a result he is grinding through something he doesn't want to do because he has ZERO options to do it any other way. > > > > > > How hard is that to get? > > > > Well apparently it's pretty hard for some people to get. But, Anet won't fix anything, they said as much. > > > > And truth is.. more players are forced to do content they do not enjoy, the likely they will be to move to some other game. I know I have my eye on a few other games already. We shall see how they deal at launch, Bless tanked hard. > > I wasn't a fan of the idea that I would have to do World vs World but once I got into it, I found I enjoyed it more than I did playing PVE. If I hadn't had to go into WvW to get the Gift of Battle I wouldn't have and I wouldn't have given the mode a chance. So in that way I am glad that I had to go. I've really enjoyed lots of aspects (I'm still not so big on killing people but having siege weapons and building/taking things... FUN!) I'm also someone who likes to "fraternize" with the enemy (I leave them pie or we have dance parties outside of keeps for fun on days when it's not super important ie score is set). > > On the other hand, I've lost my interest in PVE because of the fact that more and more of the content is group based. Which would be fine but it's difficult for me to feel comfortable in groups, I don't want to do discord, I don't have any interest in joining randoms. Unfortunately, the majority of the people I started playing with have left the game or have people they are already in groups with... So that leaves open area content which to be honest? It's boring. I completed all the achievements and I no longer want to do the ones left. I don't mind doing the bounties If I'm following a commander that I joined up with, and I can follow directions etc and I'm pretty decent at my classes, but my twitch reflexes are going to be slower (age). So, I am sad that there aren't more PVE options to get Legendary gear (outside of weapons). > > I enjoyed finishing the PVE stuff for Living Worlds Season 3 and getting my 1st legendary from that. If there were more options to get gear by doing PVE content like that I would do it in a heartbeat. On the other hand now that I'm playing WvW I have an option to get Legendary Armor, it'd be nice if it had cool skins but I don't really care about that as much as being able to choose the different stats and test them out which is (in my opinion) more relevant in PvP and WvW rather than in PVE. It would have made more sense had Anet given "cool armor skins" to the people whose gear changes every patch (WvW and PvP) vs those that seem to change via expansion. (Currently PVE is pretty much Zerkers vs Condi. It never changes from those two. You have no need to build any of the other types of gear because your stats do the most DPS off one or the other of those two and it's kinda boring). WvW/PvP on the other hand you have to take into account survivability etc. so more build choices and more build options depending on what you need your class to do (ie do you want to roam, do you want to bunker, do you want to join in zergs/raids ect). > > There should be more options for "shinies" rather than locked behind different modes. You get legendary weapons that are NOT locked behind different modes but you get stuck having your choices limited when playing PVE. Add in the time sink and you've got problems. I liked some of the suggestions for "easy mode". I would give those a try (wasted 4 hours wiped each time at VG and as it was a craptastic experience didn't want to repeat or try again.) I want to try new things but wasting 4 hours on something and not achieving isn't exactly something I am willing to do nor is it a reasonable thing to ask of people. As irony would have it, I have always been a avid WvW player, but being sent there to farm the mode for Legendary Armor put a sour taste in mouth about it, and now it went from a fun and engaging mode played for the thrill of the fight and conquest, to a pointless grind for loot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Ferelwing.8463" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > I could fling the exact same words, using the exact same logic, back at you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See, Unlike you, I don't want to deprive you of anything > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your own conviction. Mine is that you *will* deprive me of something, regardless if you realize this or not. > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear how mean of me.. so tell me.. outside of self serving ego stroking, what would I be depriving you of? > > > > > > > > Possibly the opportunity to play raids at all, by starving them of the required playerbase. > > > > In any case, more raid releases, as the developers would need to waste time to rebalance all the existing raids for no good reason. > > > > > > Could make the same argument that they should scrap wvw and pvp because it could make expac and living world faster to complete and ship. > > > > Yes and do you know why they don't? Because it's content marketed for a specific demographic such that that group of people could get interested in GW2. > > > > Please tell me which group of people would get interested to play GW2 because their are easy mode raids? > > Actually no it isn't... I didn't think I would like WvW at all, in fact I generally dislike PvP period. I was not keen on going into WvW and having to get Gift of Battle in the first place because that was not something I thought I would be interested in. However, guess what? I tried it and got hooked on it. I enjoyed the playstyle of having massive battles and testing my skills against other players more than I thought I would. > > So no, it's NOT about marketing to that group of players. Instanced content however makes it impossible to find out if you would "enjoy" that kind of playstyle. If you can't get in or your group wipes constantly and you waste 10 people's time because you can't figure it out etc (and don't want to sit through and watch 100 videos etc) but would like to just freaking play it... So while it might be fun for some people who feel like it's "fun" to spend hours of time watching a video about how to play then spend however long trying to find a group of people to play it through and then maybe completing the content. Sure, go ahead and tell people again that it's "marketed" for that type of person. > > Not everyone knows what is "for them" till they try it and when you have instanced content, well it's obvious that you can't just "try" it. The point is they introduced raids to pull more people in with the HOT expansion. to market to a specific kind of player. Honestly i don't really see where you're argument would prove me wrong. Rather it explains quite nicely why you should lock rewards to specific content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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