Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> >I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

>

> Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a *substitute* for a proper easy mode.

>

>

 

Well you could make the raid variant not require masteries but u agree that it would't adress the issues you want to adress.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > >I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

> >

> > Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a *substitute* for a proper easy mode.

> >

> >

>

> Well you could make the raid variant not require masteries but u agree that it would't adress the issues you want to adress.

 

Right, *probably* not. If all else were left unchanged, I imagine the bodies would still pile up faster than they could be dealt with. ;)

[Anvil.9230]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

 

 

(...)

 

> It's good to ask these questions, but not because they're impossible to solve. What if rewards were capped in such a way that you couldn't abuse them like this? Maybe you only get ONE easy mode reward per week, whether or not you kill the boss multiple times. Maybe instead of awarding Magnetite Shards and Legendary Insights, the easy mode would award Magnetite Splinters and Legendary Fragments, which would have their own caps, and could be converted into Shards and Insights. just as a starting point, perhaps each easy boss could award ten Magnetite Splinters and one Legendary Fragment per kill, each of which could be combined 3:1 for the higher tier, each capped at the same weekly amount as they currently offer.

>

> This is all negotiable to arrive at a result that makes sense to both sides, of course, but too often they are posed without any interest in *solving* the question, but more in just saying "this is a problem, so obviously there can never be an easy mode."

>

> >Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?

>

> Because the time to complete a single easy mod boss would be about on par with the time to complete a normal mode boss for a "farming" raid team, and yet would provide a fraction of the reward, so if the goal is to make the best use of your time, same time spent, more reward, it seems like a no-brainer.

 

(...)

 

The more I read that topic, the more I understand that finally the people who complain that raids are too difficult for them, complain in fact that they cannot access to the their specific rewards.

 

According to me It would be a very bad idea to change that. As an exemple the legendary armor is....legendary. It means you have to do some legendary (meaning as always difficult) action to have it. The reward of people who triumph the difficulties of raids is not to obtain a gear with statistic the other players can't have...it's to obtain a look the others players can't have....a legendary one that underline their specific hability....And that solution is correctly balanced.

 

Legendary weapons from the begining of the game finally rewarded "farming".

 

Things have began to change with the introduction of mauldrey backpack...toward Something more interesting mixing farming and challenge in term of gameplay. Things continue to evoluate with the HOT legendary weapons to finnaly link the more sepctacular legendary items (armor) to the most difficult part of the game: raids.

 

I hope things are going to continue toward that direction.

 

People want to be dress as a Legend?...Ok...but They have to perform some kind of legendary....heroic... action...a thing that "pure farming" is certainly not.

 

To be dressed as a legend...you have to become a legend.

 

 

 

[Grogba.6204]

> @"Silver.2076" said:

> I like to remember the fracal meta back where you could do everything with 4 condi-reaper and 1 dudu. Easy, relatively fast, comfortable, stress-free, very easy to find matching players. That's why I played the fractal, because it was pleasant! That's exactly what I've wanted for the pve-raids for a long time. But no, it's all back to those kitten speedruns and top-dps kitten! It's stressing me out. Excuse me.

> If you ask me what we need to get more people into the raids: Exactly what there was with the former fractal meta! Play with no stress! This toxic elitism pisses me off!

 

You can clear raid bosses with almost any group composition outside of a few odd cases that outright kill off the squad once timer hits zero. Multiple groups have proven that dozens of times. The difference is just that you cannot slack off and put in lowest effort people one did and can still do in fractals. It doesn't matter if you play META comp, 10 Scourges or anything else: If you do not put in the effort to play your class and the encounter halfway decently you will not succeed nor do you deserve to succeed.

 

Again, this doesn't boil down to raids being too hard to play but to players not wanting to adapt or improve their own gameplay. *shrug*

[Talindra.4958]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > We can also make auto match search LFG system for raids where players input or tick/select their ready available search requirements, players with such requirements can join (similar to fractal tier where players won't be able to join higher tier not unless they progressed).

>

> This is a horrible idea. Automated systems remove the social part of raiding and ultimately kill it off as people are no longer invested because, why interact, why care....I can just queue up again and if that one doesn't work i'll leave.

>

> You want people invested in the mode of play, not withdrawn from it because there's no cost to their actions.

>

>

 

i am not sure how to explain this.. it isn't automated system like we currently have in pvp. our current LFG system is too simple. If we have a good party finder system, it help community to grow better. what we have now is just sections and subsections and players can put anything on recruitment and all depends on how players manage it.. nothing very special about it. with a good party finder system it can help to build the community i am not talkin about automated system like in our current pvp. its more like automatically detect players ability to join such party. players will build towards it. similar to current fractal... players has to work their character towards t4 then cm before able to join the t4 LFG. the current LFG system can be improved even better. check out party finder and duty finder in ff14 .. i am not saying they are good but its quite complex system but yet very useful.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > I'd prefer the goal of making mechanics almost impossible to miss/fail at while still retaining the threat of a wipe. That way the threat of failure is still present, thus necessitate that people do them instead of ignoring them and powering through, but it will be substantially harder to fail. Therefore people will learn the basics of the mechanics. IMO an instance with no fangs will just lead to an experience similar to the zaithan finale.

>

> Well, I mean, there are basically two ways to do it, *force* players to attempt the mechanics, but make them so easy that it's very difficult to fail them, which would make it practically useless as training for the real thing, OR *allow* players to ignore them, because ignoring them isn't likely to cause failure, but at the same time make them just as difficult to succeed at as the real thing, and *reward* success at them, by allowing for a faster and cleaner event completion. I just think that the second one is better, I don't see the virtue in requiring players to do the mechanics, especially if they are dumbed down to the point where they are effortless to complete, and training people to be able to complete those dumbed down mechanics would be worth practically nothing when they attempt the real thing.

Which is why i'd rather see mechanics that are _easier_ to complete, but not _effortless_. As my example with greens: you'd definitely still want 4 people in them to completely negate the damage, but you'd be rewarded for partial success. If at some point one or two players miss the greens, it might still be survivable. If your tank messed up (or your cc's were too slow) and the green spawned on lit floor, one or two people with best mobility getting there might still save your group.

But, in the end, you'd definitely notice the mechanic, and if you ever went up to normal, you'd not be surprised by it being completely different.

 

That's why in general i prefer for things like sizes and timings of mechanics (and their general nature) to remain unchanged.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > I'd prefer the goal of making mechanics almost impossible to miss/fail at while still retaining the threat of a wipe. That way the threat of failure is still present, thus necessitate that people do them instead of ignoring them and powering through, but it will be substantially harder to fail. Therefore people will learn the basics of the mechanics. IMO an instance with no fangs will just lead to an experience similar to the zaithan finale.

> >

> > Well, I mean, there are basically two ways to do it, *force* players to attempt the mechanics, but make them so easy that it's very difficult to fail them, which would make it practically useless as training for the real thing, OR *allow* players to ignore them, because ignoring them isn't likely to cause failure, but at the same time make them just as difficult to succeed at as the real thing, and *reward* success at them, by allowing for a faster and cleaner event completion. I just think that the second one is better, I don't see the virtue in requiring players to do the mechanics, especially if they are dumbed down to the point where they are effortless to complete, and training people to be able to complete those dumbed down mechanics would be worth practically nothing when they attempt the real thing.

> Which is why i'd rather see mechanics that are _easier_ to complete, but not _effortless_. As my example with greens: you'd definitely still want 4 people in them to completely negate the damage, but you'd be rewarded for partial success. If at some point one or two players miss the greens, it might still be survivable. If your tank messed up (or your cc's were too slow) and the green spawned on lit floor, one or two people with best mobility getting there might still save your group.

> But, in the end, you'd definitely notice the mechanic, and if you ever went up to normal, you'd not be surprised by it being completely different.

>

> That's why in general i prefer for things like sizes and timings of mechanics (and their general nature) to remain unchanged.

>

 

Yeah, so far as "similar to the original, but different" goes, this is one of the better ones. basically if you play it like hard mode, it works like hard mode, but if you fall short, it can still be survivable.

[Silver.2076]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"Silver.2076" said:

> > I like to remember the fracal meta back where you could do everything with 4 condi-reaper and 1 dudu. Easy, relatively fast, comfortable, stress-free, very easy to find matching players. That's why I played the fractal, because it was pleasant! That's exactly what I've wanted for the pve-raids for a long time. But no, it's all back to those kitten speedruns and top-dps kitten! It's stressing me out. Excuse me.

> > If you ask me what we need to get more people into the raids: Exactly what there was with the former fractal meta! Play with no stress! This toxic elitism pisses me off!

>

> You can clear raid bosses with almost any group composition outside of a few odd cases that outright kill off the squad once timer hits zero. Multiple groups have proven that dozens of times. The difference is just that you cannot slack off and put in lowest effort people one did and can still do in fractals. It doesn't matter if you play META comp, 10 Scourges or anything else: If you do not put in the effort to play your class and the encounter halfway decently you will not succeed nor do you deserve to succeed.

>

> Again, this doesn't boil down to raids being too hard to play but to players not wanting to adapt or improve their own gameplay. *shrug*

 

Sorry, but I never said I wanted to put less effort into the raids or expect this from a meta. On the contrary, I expect people to make an effort, but not on a level that punishes mistakes immediately and leads to disputes as soon as they fail to meet any targets by a few percent. Especially in Pug groups there will always be some that are a bit better than the average, the others a bit worse! a good meta makes it possible to absorb the inadequacies of others, of course not to take over their whole role, but to create a certain balance.

 

There are players, like me, who are under a lot of stress when playing under pressure - this is the current meta - full risk, full concentration, otherwise fail. A good meta allows you to play relaxed, to play safely, guaranteed to play for success. Of course, it also needs to be played properly and requires a certain amount of effort!

 

ps. And it must be a universal way of playing, the meta, to enable pug groups at all.

[Anvil.9230]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > The more I read that topic, the more I understand that finally the people who complain that raids are too difficult for them, complain in fact that they cannot access to the their specific rewards.

>

> Yeah, it's both. Honestly, if you didn't get that from page 1 then I don't know how to help you.

 

Once upon a time was SWG, Star Wars Galaxies.

 

A very good MMO released in 2003...It was a very immersive sandbox MMO....it has its issues as any game of course...but we can say one big mistake has been important in its final collapse...a mistake about the possibility to play a Jedi character.

 

The MMO take place between "a New Hope" and "The empire strike back": Jedi should have been ultra-rare to boot. The early SWG game design team, debated making Jedi NPCs-only, reducing their power, or picking a different time period to begin with. Each solution was rejected. Some people of the game design team dreamed up the idea of a Diablo-inspired hardcore permadeath mode for Jedi, which was also rejected initially because .... permadeath....Sad decision...this last one would certainly have been a good idea....But the problem was Jedi inspire envy in everyone around them...And such an "elitist" system has been rejected by LucasArts, who finally demanded Jedi from “the second biggest MMO outside of Asia”. The Jedi system (build around a more or less classical "farming" system) was a go; SOE dropped Holocrons as hints into the game, and video gamers did what they always do: They brute-forced Jedi by just learning all the skills. By the time the Jedi Village rolled around and everyone was a Jedi...And as a result, playerbase felt betrayed” by the system. Satisfaction fell off a cliff.

 

Of course Legendary skins are not as important in Gw2 as jedi profession were in SWG...but the mechanism is the same: If an element of the gameplay is supposed to be "heroic"...it must be looked beind a challenge different from "farming activity"... or no player should be allowed to acceess it.

 

> >According to me It would be a very bad idea to change that. As an exemple the legendary armor is....legendary. It means you have to do some legendary (meaning as always difficult) action to have it.

>

> Nah. That's just a nonsense justification for "I got mine, now shut up." There's nothing "Legendary" about legendary armor aside from that they slapped the word "Legendary" on it. There's plenty of other "Legendary" stuff in the game much easier to get. There's absolutely no reason why raids should be the only PvE way to earn the armor.

 

I have not done all the things i'd like to achieve with GW2 raids. It will certainly take some time to complete them and will need me to adapt parts of my gameplay to success what i want to do...But If I obtain the prize it would be because I'll finally find a solution...not because someone change the rule of the game to allow me to..."win"?....

 

> >People want to be dress as a Legend?...Ok...but They have to perform some kind of legendary....heroic... action...a thing that "pure farming" is certainly not.

>

> Someone has an awfully high opinion of himself.

 

Hope you have a good opinion of yourself too. It's an important success factor to progress whatever you do.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Solaris.2489" said:

> The answer to this thread is no. When you are interested in raids you join a guild that specializes in raiding and practice. Eventually you see all bosses moving in slow motion and it gets boring because in PvE everything just follows a pattern you can learn.

 

So, doing raids make you get bored with the game? That sounds like a strong reason to not have them implemented in the first place.

 

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> People want to be dress as a Legend?...Ok...but They have to perform some kind of legendary....heroic... action...a thing that "pure farming" is certainly not.

Neither are raids. They aren't heroic, they are just unfun.

 

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

> To be dressed as a legend...you have to become a legend.

then most raiders definitely do not qualify.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > We can also make auto match search LFG system for raids where players input or tick/select their ready available search requirements, players with such requirements can join (similar to fractal tier where players won't be able to join higher tier not unless they progressed).

> >

> > This is a horrible idea. Automated systems remove the social part of raiding and ultimately kill it off as people are no longer invested because, why interact, why care....I can just queue up again and if that one doesn't work i'll leave.

> >

> > You want people invested in the mode of play, not withdrawn from it because there's no cost to their actions.

> >

> >

>

> i am not sure how to explain this.. it isn't automated system like we currently have in pvp. our current LFG system is too simple. If we have a good party finder system, it help community to grow better. what we have now is just sections and subsections and players can put anything on recruitment and all depends on how players manage it.. nothing very special about it. with a good party finder system it can help to build the community i am not talkin about automated system like in our current pvp. its more like automatically detect players ability to join such party. players will build towards it. similar to current fractal... players has to work their character towards t4 then cm before able to join the t4 LFG. the current LFG system can be improved even better. check out party finder and duty finder in ff14 .. i am not saying they are good but its quite complex system but yet very useful.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Solaris.2489" said:

> > The answer to this thread is no. When you are interested in raids you join a guild that specializes in raiding and practice. Eventually you see all bosses moving in slow motion and it gets boring because in PvE everything just follows a pattern you can learn.

>

> So, doing raids make you get bored with the game? That sounds like a strong reason to not have them implemented in the first place.

>

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > People want to be dress as a Legend?...Ok...but They have to perform some kind of legendary....heroic... action...a thing that "pure farming" is certainly not.

> Neither are raids. They aren't heroic, they are just unfun.

>

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> > To be dressed as a legend...you have to become a legend.

> then most raiders definitely do not qualify.

>

>

 

If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

>A very good MMO released in 2003...It was a very immersive sandbox MMO....it has its issues as any game of course...but we can say one big mistake has been important in its final collapse...a mistake about the possibility to play a Jedi character.

 

I'm well aware of SWG. SWG was a well constructed MMO, but a *horrible* Star Wars game, since it completely failed to deliver on most of what people would want from a Star Wars game (which actually was pretty in keeping with The Phantom Menace, come to think of it). If it had just released as a generic sci-fi MMO I'm sure it would have done fine, but they were right to try and make something better for a Star Wars MMO. If you design a Star Wars MMO with the expectation that *not* everyone can be a Jedi as soon as they log in, then you've failed at step 1 of the design process, go back and try again.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

 

In Tyrian/ingame standards. It has really nothing to do with what opinion people have of themselves.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> > Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> > That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

>

> In Tyrian/ingame standards. It has really nothing to do with what opinion people have of themselves.

 

Nor does it have anything *remotely* to do with the players who get Legendary armor somehow being "legendary" in any way *themselves.* The way the game is set up, all it shows is that they are players who like to raid.

[Anvil.9230]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> >A very good MMO released in 2003...It was a very immersive sandbox MMO....it has its issues as any game of course...but we can say one big mistake has been important in its final collapse...a mistake about the possibility to play a Jedi character.

>

> I'm well aware of SWG. SWG was a well constructed MMO, but a *horrible* Star Wars game, since it completely failed to deliver on most of what people would want from a Star Wars game (which actually was pretty in keeping with The Phantom Menace, come to think of it). If it had just released as a generic sci-fi MMO I'm sure it would have done fine, but they were right to try and make something better for a Star Wars MMO. If you design a Star Wars MMO with the expectation that *not* everyone can be a Jedi as soon as they log in, then you've failed at step 1 of the design process, go back and try again.

 

According to my memory as long as Jedi were not implemented and before they sadly change the profession system (a failure as always multiple causes) the game was good and no body really care about becoming a jedi: Before it, people dreamed of Jedi, and were content, and had fun with the game.

 

When they start to speak serioulsly about jedi most of the player I was playing with were interested by he system we thought they were going to implement (the permadeath system and a hunting system in wich the game would have send bounty hunter against the jedi who were not discreet enough (using to often jedi skills in public). But Finally LucasArt made the game design team in an obligation to implement jedi on a more classical way.....It finnaly killed the immersion.

They could have release Jedi with success...but only on a very elitist way which would have preserve the game ambiance. Always remember what Syndrome (In the Incredibles movie) says about Super heroes: " when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super...no one will be". ;)

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

>

>

 

Maybe...Maybe...but in a "theme park" MMO style like GW2, Raid is what seems to allow people to go as close as possible to the "hero" concept ;) For lack of anything else better in that kind of game, let's do with: The raids skins (legendary armor but also some ascended gears) is the reward proposed by the game designer to those who succefully meet their challenge.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> > > Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> > > That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

> >

> > In Tyrian/ingame standards. It has really nothing to do with what opinion people have of themselves.

>

> Nor does it have anything *remotely* to do with the players who get Legendary armor somehow being "legendary" in any way *themselves.* The way the game is set up, all it shows is that they are players who like to raid.

 

No, all it shows is that they are players who have taken the effort to overcome the challenges. How you view it, and how players view the content is entirely subjective.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

> > > >

> > > > That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

> > >

> > > Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

> >

> > Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though.

>

> Riiiight. Business decisions made on a whim, huh? Somehow I fail to believe that.

 

Well, given some of the things I have heard from _people who claim to be developers_ say.. It really sounds like they are shooting in the dark hoping they hit something.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> also, can we get on to the nitty gritty of it, how/what changes would you make to each boss to qualify as an "easy mode"

 

In another MMO I used to raid in, they had Normal, Hard, and Elite modes, it didn't break the game, and that was an Old School MMO, where the best loot was Named Drops from Raid Chests, and we had to DKP our way to the good stuff, (depending on the guild we were in)

[Obtena.7952]

It's pretty interesting that people that self-admit they don't want to do raids are so significantly invested in a thread about raiding ... just saying. Have to be aware of the MOTIVES behind why people want things here. It's not always in the best interests of the game, Anet or the players.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

>

>

 

Collections include killing every boss pretty much. That legendary compaired to open world events lol.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > If they did the content and got the currencies then yes yes they do.

> > > Are you seriously going to claim that doing the two collections and gathering 150 LI makes the player a Legend?

> > > That goes well beyond just having an overblown opinion of yourself.

> >

> > In Tyrian/ingame standards. It has really nothing to do with what opinion people have of themselves.

>

> Nor does it have anything *remotely* to do with the players who get Legendary armor somehow being "legendary" in any way *themselves.* The way the game is set up, all it shows is that they are players who like to raid.

 

No not really i like raids but im pretty bad at them. Having te collections shows that someone is likely to be a good player. Unless u only did escort in which case it will take u 10 times more to get the set.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It's pretty interesting that people that self-admit they don't want to do raids are so significantly invested in a thread about raiding ... just saying. Have to be aware of the MOTIVES behind why people want things here. It's not always in the best interests of the game, Anet or the players.

 

Has it ever dawned on you that they are here.. because they are invested in the game and want the best for it, as opposed to just mindlessly clinging to some need to posses loots that make them feel better then other people.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

>According to my memory as long as Jedi were not implemented and before they sadly change the profession system (a failure as always multiple causes) the game was good and no body really care about becoming a jedi: Before it, people dreamed of Jedi, and were content, and had fun with the game.

 

It was doing *ok,* and the people who enjoyed what it did, enjoyed what it did, but millions of other Star Wars fans were completely uninterested in what it offered, because it was offering very little of what a Star Wars MMO should offer. Again, SWG would have made an excellent generic sci-fi MMO, but it was missing core elements that a Star Wars MMO needed. I have no doubt that the changes they made hurt the game that people at the time enjoyed playing, but it wasn't about them, it was about the millions of fans that quit early or didin't even bother with SWG in the first place. Too little, too late? Probably, but it was definitely something that should have been in the plans from the start.

 

In any case, this is irrelevant to GW2, since there's no justification for elitism in this game. It's antithetical to what people came here for. . .

 

Actually, I've changed my mind, you're right, it IS relevant to GW2. Them adding raids to GW2 is precisely the same thing as when SWG added Jedi to the game. It might be what outsiders wanted, but it ruined what made the game special already.

 

>Maybe...Maybe...but in a "theme park" MMO style like GW2, Raid is what seems to allow people to go as close as possible to the "hero" concept

 

But the point is, you want *everyone* to feel like a hero, not just the ones who enjoy raiding. Systems that designate *some* players as "heroes" and the rest as "second rate" are corrosive to the game overall.

 

 

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It's pretty interesting that people that self-admit they don't want to do raids are so significantly invested in a thread about raiding ... just saying. Have to be aware of the MOTIVES behind why people want things here. It's not always in the best interests of the game, Anet or the players.

 

We've been pretty clear about what we want. There's no real ambiguity here.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>No not really i like raids but im pretty bad at them. Having te collections shows that someone is likely to be a good player. Unless u only did escort in which case it will take u 10 times more to get the set.

 

You can just spend gold to get the armor, it doesn't prove anything at all.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> >According to my memory as long as Jedi were not implemented and before they sadly change the profession system (a failure as always multiple causes) the game was good and no body really care about becoming a jedi: Before it, people dreamed of Jedi, and were content, and had fun with the game.

>

> It was doing *ok,* and the people who enjoyed what it did, enjoyed what it did, but millions of other Star Wars fans were completely uninterested in what it offered, because it was offering very little of what a Star Wars MMO should offer. Again, SWG would have made an excellent generic sci-fi MMO, but it was missing core elements that a Star Wars MMO needed. I have no doubt that the changes they made hurt the game that people at the time enjoyed playing, but it wasn't about them, it was about the millions of fans that quit early or didin't even bother with SWG in the first place. Too little, too late? Probably, but it was definitely something that should have been in the plans from the start.

>

> In any case, this is irrelevant to GW2, since there's no justification for elitism in this game. It's antithetical to what people came here for. . .

>

> Actually, I've changed my mind, you're right, it IS relevant to GW2. Them adding raids to GW2 is precisely the same thing as when SWG added Jedi to the game. It might be what outsiders wanted, but it ruined what made the game special already.

>

> >Maybe...Maybe...but in a "theme park" MMO style like GW2, Raid is what seems to allow people to go as close as possible to the "hero" concept

>

> But the point is, you want *everyone* to feel like a hero, not just the ones who enjoy raiding. Systems that designate *some* players as "heroes" and the rest as "second rate" are corrosive to the game overall.

>

>

>

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > It's pretty interesting that people that self-admit they don't want to do raids are so significantly invested in a thread about raiding ... just saying. Have to be aware of the MOTIVES behind why people want things here. It's not always in the best interests of the game, Anet or the players.

>

> We've been pretty clear about what we want. There's no real ambiguity here.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >No not really i like raids but im pretty bad at them. Having te collections shows that someone is likely to be a good player. Unless u only did escort in which case it will take u 10 times more to get the set.

>

> You can just spend gold to get the armor, it doesn't prove anything at all.

 

You are a legend in my book if you bought 150 kills. I wouldnt even dreamed of farming all that gold wether its irl orin game.