Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Whats a bad end is subjective one leads to not getting the skin which in your case is suppose a bad ending the other leads to you getting the skin which is a good one!

> >

> > I agree it's subjective, it's subjective to the end-user. My point is that the developer should take the end-user's subjective viewpoint into account, and provide non-bad options.

> >

> No, theres an unlimited amount of players and an unlimited amount of bad options. The options should be good based on the context of the content. Which they are.

 

I'm. . . genuinely stumped at what you were getting at here, but if it was a sort of reductio ad absurdum argument about needing "infinite options," no, we've established that we're talking about just *one* additional option here.

 

No worries.

 

>So we assume that the shoes are smaller because if they are bigger then thats not an outcome that can happen.

 

Could be either. Maybe continuing to walk in them produces so many blisters and scabs that your feet get infected and swell up to fill them.

 

That would actually be more apt to the raid comparison, actually, so let's go with that one.

 

I do feel it's important to point out, before we go too far, that we're discussing an analogy here, and if you get too deep into the weeds over *any* analogy it breaks down and ceases to have relevance to anything.

 

But go on. . .

 

>Unlike your example thou the armor will always look like it does, fit you perfectly and be nice and shiny. i know what im working towards it will never change no matter how long it takes.

 

Riiiiight. . . but that isn't the point of the analogy. The point of the analogy is that to get to that result you had to walk a thousand miles in uncomfortable shoes, what to *most* people would be an entirely unpleasant experience, just to eventually get to something that, by all rights, you should have been able to *just get,* without that negative experience. If the goal is to reach "a thousand miles from here," why should you have to start that journey in uncomfortable shoes, rather than walking the entire trip in shoes that fit well?

 

Who is benefiting from your discomfort, in that example?

 

>Im a consumer when it comes to anet's products and this decision is 100% compatable with my interests.

 

Yes, and that's fine. You're satisfied with the current options, and that's why nobody is suggesting taking those options away. But there are also customers *not* satisfied by those options, and would like alternatives. Their being served would not in any way diminish your experience in any way that anyone should care about.

 

>If its not for you thou chances are as a youtuber i watch put it "you arent their target audience". Good thing this isnt the only thing to do and go after in game. Actually this is but a small side attraction compared to the entirety of the game and the majority of it is more akin to your tastes.

 

Yes, and that argument would apply if "everything that happened in raids stayed in raids," as PvP rewards were when the game launched. But that's not how the game works. The Legendary armor is something that exists outside of raids, and is therefore part of the wider game. You cannot tell players "they are not the target audience" if it is an item that exists in the game they are playing.

 

> Its not black and white stop treating it like it is. aiv hated bosses till i learned them and now they dont annoy me.

 

And that's *still* **your** lived experience, which is not "everyone's." If you believe that there is a scenario in which I could potentially come to appreciate raids in their current form, then I can flatly tell you that **you are wrong about that.**

 

Different people are different people.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > Not really, their is a part of perception to prestige. In most cases it doesn't really matter if their is some prestige (which is a bad defined notion anyway) but if the people involved believe their to be some prestige involved.

>

> But let's say that you do find it "prestigious" for someone to have legendary armor, for whatever reason. Why should *my* ability to have legendary armor be gated by *your* insistence that it is "prestigious?" Shouldn't someone's interest in the item for its own intrinsic value override someone else's interest in the item remaining overly rare?

>

> This strikes me like the De Beers situation, in which they just *decided* that diamonds should be "rare and special," and so they sell them in metered quantities to maintain that price, when really everyone on Earth could have a ton of diamonds if they didn't maintain such a tight monopoly on the market.

>

>

 

There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and *only* of perception. Look up the list of physical properties. You'll find properties such as "charge", "mass" or "spin", but I assure you, you won't find "value". Value is just the measure of how bad *we* want something, averaged out over the entire population. See the problem with your point?

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

 

That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^

It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

 

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it *internal* to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that *they* have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to *not* have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

 

And just so avoid diversions, I do *not* mean that literally, as the last person on Earth should probably be doing something more productive than playing MMOs.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

>That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

 

None of that sounds impressive enough to matter. GW2 isn't a streaming game, and there's been plenty of discussion as to why. GW2 is for players, not viewers.

 

>This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that.

 

It has an active LFG because it *requires* an active LFG more than most modes of content. It takes longer to form a party, parties tend to be more selective, and they cap off at 10, putting it in a pit between most content where a group can fully form at five in a couple minutes, and other content where a single LFG squad can handle the better part of a map. It does nothing to indicate more *interest* in the mode.

 

>It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

 

Yup, it would have been pretty great. Probably lost less people since HoT came out.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Whats a bad end is subjective one leads to not getting the skin which in your case is suppose a bad ending the other leads to you getting the skin which is a good one!

> > >

> > > I agree it's subjective, it's subjective to the end-user. My point is that the developer should take the end-user's subjective viewpoint into account, and provide non-bad options.

> > >

> > No, theres an unlimited amount of players and an unlimited amount of bad options. The options should be good based on the context of the content. Which they are.

>

> I'm. . . genuinely stumped at what you were getting at here, but if it was a sort of reductio ad absurdum argument about needing "infinite options," no, we've established that we're talking about just *one* additional option here.

>

> No worries.

 

There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it.8

>

> >So we assume that the shoes are smaller because if they are bigger then thats not an outcome that can happen.

>

> Could be either. Maybe continuing to walk in them produces so many blisters and scabs that your feet get infected and swell up to fill them.

>

> That would actually be more apt to the raid comparison, actually, so let's go with that one.

>

> I do feel it's important to point out, before we go too far, that we're discussing an analogy here, and if you get too deep into the weeds over *any* analogy it breaks down and ceases to have relevance to anything.

>

> But go on. . .

>

I mean if it starts getting unbearable (idek why wpuld you do that to yourself but ehh) you can always halt take a break take off your shoes and relax your feet. Nobody is rushing you and the shoes aint going nowhere.

 

> >Unlike your example thou the armor will always look like it does, fit you perfectly and be nice and shiny. i know what im working towards it will never change no matter how long it takes.

>

> Riiiiight. . . but that isn't the point of the analogy. The point of the analogy is that to get to that result you had to walk a thousand miles in uncomfortable shoes, what to *most* people would be an entirely unpleasant experience, just to eventually get to something that, by all rights, you should have been able to *just get,* without that negative experience. If the goal is to reach "a thousand miles from here," why should you have to start that journey in uncomfortable shoes, rather than walking the entire trip in shoes that fit well?

>

The shoes in the example would be your performance then the more improved your performance the smolther the walk will be.

 

And again your example doesnt work. Raiding gets easier down the line, thats not opinion thats a fact. Walking tousands of miles doesnt get easier.

 

As to why, for the reward obv, you work hard for it. U start from a pace thats not comfortable for you and slowly get to a comfortable pace/situation.

 

> Who is benefiting from your discomfort, in that example?

>

> >Im a consumer when it comes to anet's products and this decision is 100% compatable with my interests.

>

> Yes, and that's fine. You're satisfied with the current options, and that's why nobody is suggesting taking those options away. But there are also customers *not* satisfied by those options, and would like alternatives. Their being served would not in any way diminish your experience in any way that anyone should care about.

>

It would as it would devalue my hard work. And again if you arent satisfied you prob arent the target audience or you havent given it enough attention. Either way this content wasnt made for everyone in the game to play. Ot was made for the ppl that want to get into its mindset and had rewards fiting for that.

 

> >If its not for you thou chances are as a youtuber i watch put it "you arent their target audience". Good thing this isnt the only thing to do and go after in game. Actually this is but a small side attraction compared to the entirety of the game and the majority of it is more akin to your tastes.

>

> Yes, and that argument would apply if "everything that happened in raids stayed in raids," as PvP rewards were when the game launched. But that's not how the game works. The Legendary armor is something that exists outside of raids, and is therefore part of the wider game. You cannot tell players "they are not the target audience" if it is an item that exists in the game they are playing.

>

You can its an mmo and has lots of diff things for lots of diff demographics. And no it still aplies u just arent part of the target audiemce for this type of content that has these specific rewards.

 

> > Its not black and white stop treating it like it is. aiv hated bosses till i learned them and now they dont annoy me.

>

> And that's *still* **your** lived experience, which is not "everyone's." If you believe that there is a scenario in which I could potentially come to appreciate raids in their current form, then I can flatly tell you that **you are wrong about that.**

>

> Different people are different people.

>

 

I dont care wether you come to apreciate them or not im just statimg that the better you get the less they will frustrate you and thats a fact.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it.8

 

So?

 

What do you do about that?

 

Do you say "There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it, *therefore do nothing to improve anything ever?"*

 

Or do you say "There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it, *so try to hit a mark that will satisfy the largest possible portion of the audience that is currently stuck between 'the baseline of the rest of the game' and 'raids'?"*

 

I vote the latter. You can't please everyone, that's no excuse to stop trying to please most players.

 

>I mean if it starts getting unbearable (idek why wpuld you do that to yourself but ehh) you can always halt take a break take off your shoes and relax your feet. Nobody is rushing you and the shoes aint going nowhere.

 

Again, **I would NEVER enjoy the current form of raids.** There is no path forward, regardless of pacing, that would result in an enjoyable journey. Stop trying to deconstruct the metaphor and just listen to what I am saying.

 

>The shoes in the example would be your performance then the more improved your performance the smolther the walk will be.

 

For you, but as I've explained, I don't work that way.

 

>And again your example doesnt work. Raiding gets easier down the line, thats not opinion thats a fact. Walking tousands of miles doesnt get easier.

 

Sure it does, you build muscle, build callouses, ask a marathon runner whether the last one he did felt easier than the first. Of course that's neither here nor there.

 

>As to why, for the reward obv, you work hard for it. U start from a pace thats not comfortable for you and slowly get to a comfortable pace/situation.

 

Again though, "comfort" is not on the menu in this case, it will never be comfortable. And again, there is no benefit even to the theoretical "start out uncomfortable, and eventually get comfortable," it's better to be comfortable the entire way.

 

>It would as it would devalue my hard work.

 

No it wouldn't. You'd still have your hard work, nobody could take an ounce of that away from you. Someone else doing something completely different to earn Legendary armor does absolutely zero to devalue the effort you put in to earn it. That's like saying that someone taking the mountain trails up the backside of El Captain to reach the summit "devalues" the efforts of someone who freeclimbs the sheer face to get there. The value of the effort is *in* the effort, and only you can place a price on that, not ANet.

 

>And again if you arent satisfied you prob arent the target audience or you havent given it enough attention.

 

Again, Nobody gets to decide the "target audience" for a reward. The audience determines the target audience for the reward. If the audience that wants it is out of synch with the audience of the content it was attached to, then the flaw was in the attaching it to that content, not in the audience.

 

>I dont care wether you come to apreciate them or not im just statimg that the better you get the less they will frustrate you and thats a fact.

 

No, that is an opinion, and is beside the point that the experience of *getting* to that point will still have happened, I will still remember it and remember all that frustration. Again, you can speak for yourself all you like, but stop trying to speak for me. I know from previous experience exactly how I will feel "coming out the other side" on a situation like this, and this will not go the way you think it will go.

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> >That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

>

> None of that sounds impressive enough to matter. GW2 isn't a streaming game, and there's been plenty of discussion as to why. GW2 is for players, not viewers.

 

It does matter because it clearly shows that there is interest of lots of players and viewers for certain content.

 

> >This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that.

>

> It has an active LFG because it *requires* an active LFG more than most modes of content. It takes longer to form a party, parties tend to be more selective, and they cap off at 10, putting it in a pit between most content where a group can fully form at five in a couple minutes, and other content where a single LFG squad can handle the better part of a map. It does nothing to indicate more *interest* in the mode.

 

Of course it indicate interest in the mode. If it wouldn't raids have benn abandoned by players a long time ago. The opposite is reality.

 

> >It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

>

> Yup, it would have been pretty great. Probably lost less people since HoT came out.

 

I call heavily bs here. This game would be more than dead. Achievement hunt collections rewarded with 5k karma cookies or +1 AP aren't keeping players in the game in the long run. Especially if they are one-term things and not repeatable. With the LS episodes Anet is producing content that is played for about 1-2 weeks and a story part for about 2-3 maximum and then barely played again. It is decent content but way too much for the waste bin because players go back fast to their routines like farming Istan, SW, world bosses, fractals and yes, raids.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I vote the latter. You can't please everyone, that's no excuse to stop trying to please most players.

 

And the big question is: Are the most players in GW2 uncomfortable with the game or is it just Ohoni and a few more. I call the latter because there is 0 indication, proof or evidence it's the other way round!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

>It does matter because it clearly shows that there is interest of lots of players and viewers for certain content.

 

Sure, Fortnite, what's your point?

 

>Of course it indicate interest in the mode. If it wouldn't raids have benn abandoned by players a long time ago. The opposite is reality.

 

It appeals to a very specific niche, nobody disagrees there, but it could offer gameplay to a much larger audience.

 

>I call heavily bs here. This game would be more than dead. Achievement hunt collections rewarded with 5k karma cookies or +1 AP aren't keeping players in the game in the long run.

 

Well of course they would have needed to continue making content, but relatively few players do any of that "challenging content" you seem to like, so if the same efforts had been put toward less challenging content, maybe more guild missions or general content, it likely would have retained a lot more players. A lot of people were very turned off by what they viewed as increased difficulty in HoT content.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it.8

>

> So?

>

> What do you do about that?

>

> Do you say "There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it, *therefore do nothing to improve anything ever?"*

>

> Or do you say "There will be always players that find something too easy or too regardless what you think of it, *so try to hit a mark that will satisfy the largest possible portion of the audience that is currently stuck between 'the baseline of the rest of the game' and 'raids'?"*

>

> I vote the latter. You can't please everyone, that's no excuse to stop trying to please most players.

>

I say what prevents players to complain like you do then? Are they diff from you dont they deserve a mode thats comfortable to them?

Also why someone that find it too easy shouldnt ask for something harder doesnt he deserve something thats better for him?

 

> >I mean if it starts getting unbearable (idek why wpuld you do that to yourself but ehh) you can always halt take a break take off your shoes and relax your feet. Nobody is rushing you and the shoes aint going nowhere.

>

> Again, **I would NEVER enjoy the current form of raids.** There is no path forward, regardless of pacing, that would result in an enjoyable journey. Stop trying to deconstruct the metaphor and just listen to what I am saying.

>

> >The shoes in the example would be your performance then the more improved your performance the smolther the walk will be.

>

> For you, but as I've explained, I don't work that way.

>

> >And again your example doesnt work. Raiding gets easier down the line, thats not opinion thats a fact. Walking tousands of miles doesnt get easier.

>

> Sure it does, you build muscle, build callouses, ask a marathon runner whether the last one he did felt easier than the first. Of course that's neither here nor there.

>

> >As to why, for the reward obv, you work hard for it. U start from a pace thats not comfortable for you and slowly get to a comfortable pace/situation.

>

> Again though, "comfort" is not on the menu in this case, it will never be comfortable. And again, there is no benefit even to the theoretical "start out uncomfortable, and eventually get comfortable," it's better to be comfortable the entire way.

>

> >It would as it would devalue my hard work.

>

> No it wouldn't. You'd still have your hard work, nobody could take an ounce of that away from you. Someone else doing something completely different to earn Legendary armor does absolutely zero to devalue the effort you put in to earn it. That's like saying that someone taking the mountain trails up the backside of El Captain to reach the summit "devalues" the efforts of someone who freeclimbs the sheer face to get there. The value of the effort is *in* the effort, and only you can place a price on that, not ANet.

>

> >And again if you arent satisfied you prob arent the target audience or you havent given it enough attention.

>

> Again, Nobody gets to decide the "target audience" for a reward. The audience determines the target audience for the reward. If the audience that wants it is out of synch with the audience of the content it was attached to, then the flaw was in the attaching it to that content, not in the audience.

>

> >I dont care wether you come to apreciate them or not im just statimg that the better you get the less they will frustrate you and thats a fact.

>

> No, that is an opinion, and is beside the point that the experience of *getting* to that point will still have happened, I will still remember it and remember all that frustration. Again, you can speak for yourself all you like, but stop trying to speak for me. I know from previous experience exactly how I will feel "coming out the other side" on a situation like this, and this will not go the way you think it will go.

>

>

 

No its not an opinion things get easier as you get better. Im not argueing you wont dislike any of it im sayong that after a point it wont even frustrate you dificulty wise.

 

Also it devalues my work if someone else can get it without hard work.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> No its not an opinion things get easier as you get better.

 

Well that's a bit of a tautology, but it wasn't your original point. Your *original* point was that the experience would get less *frustrating.* It likely would get easier after many repetitions, but it would remain frustrating by its nature, and again, the eventual improving of my skill would not make up for the annoyance of the journey to that point.

 

>Also it devalues my work if someone else can get it without hard work.

 

No, it doesn't. You might feel that way, but that's subjective.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > No its not an opinion things get easier as you get better.

>

> Well that's a bit of a tautology, but it wasn't your original point. Your *original* point was that the experience would get less *frustrating.* It likely would get easier after many repetitions, but it would remain frustrating by its nature, and again, the eventual improving of my skill would not make up for the annoyance of the journey to that point.

>

Frustration comes from the dificulty. You are frustrated when something doesnt go your way and judging by your vote thats the dificulty.

 

> >Also it devalues my work if someone else can get it without hard work.

>

> No, it doesn't. You might feel that way, but that's subjective.

>

 

Bs. If i have to work hard for something having someone casually get it is just a slap to the face.

He and anet are dissrespecting my effort and time put into getting the armor.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Sure, Fortnite, what's your point?

 

What has Fortnite to do with GW2? I'm comparing the relevant numbers and that are the ones from GW2 streams. This event is the strongest indication that there is a big enough player base interested in challenging content. It is a huge success that such an event can bundle several thousand viewers although it's not a streaming game. No other GW2 content is or was able to in the slightest.

 

> It appeals to a very specific niche, nobody disagrees there, but it could offer gameplay to a much larger audience.

 

Probably, but not with easy mode raids since that isn't one of the most demanded things by players in other forum parts. Additionally the niche is not as small as some make us believe.

 

> Well of course they would have needed to continue making content, but relatively few players do any of that "challenging content" you seem to like, so if the same efforts had been put toward less challenging content, maybe more guild missions or general content, it likely would have retained a lot more players. A lot of people were very turned off by what they viewed as increased difficulty in HoT content.

 

All that has nothing to do with raids. HoT open world stuff was too hard because players went in with their base specs and had problems. That's why they overhauled the maps.

And since we know that the raid team is relative small, extremely small compared to the LS teams critics should have gone in this direction in the first place because there are the competence and main resources.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Frustration comes from the dificulty. You are frustrated when something doesnt go your way and judging by your vote thats the dificulty.

 

But the way raids are structured, I could perform horribly and the raid could still succeed, if others carry me. Or I could perform flawlessly and the raid could fail, if some other players drop the ball. Personal success would reduce the odds of failure, but far from eliminate it. And again, even if by chance I reach some zen state where raids I'm a part of succeed 100% of the time, that does not negate the annoyance of the period in between.

 

>Bs. If i have to work hard for something having someone casually get it is just a slap to the face.

 

No, it's very much not. Again I'll point you to the El Capitan example. Alex Honnold was the first man to freeclimb the face without gear, in 2017. There are 70 charted routes up that mountain, and also casual hiking routes, but the thousands that have completed those take nothing away from the accomplishment of Honnold. If you earned Legendary armor by paying gold to be carried through a bunch of hard mode raids, nothng could take that fact away from you, even if some other player earned his own by playing easy mode a bunch of times.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

>What has Fortnite to do with GW2? I'm comparing the relevant numbers and that are the ones from GW2 streams. This event is the strongest indication that there is a big enough player base interested in challenging content. It is a huge success that such an event can bundle several thousand viewers although it's not a streaming game. No other GW2 content is or was able to in the slightest.

 

3500 stream viewers is nothing though, with numbers like that it's completely irrelevant how many there were relative to other GW2 content.

 

>Probably, but not with easy mode raids since that isn't one of the most demanded things by players in other forum parts. Additionally the niche is not as small as some make us believe.

 

Other things are other things, nobody is saying they shouldn't also do other things, but this is something that would be *relatively* lower effort and would produce a lot of worthwhile new content for a lot of players.

 

>All that has nothing to do with raids. HoT open world stuff was too hard because players went in with their base specs and had problems. That's why they overhauled the maps.

 

You said "It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released." My response was that it would have been better, because it wouldn't have had that ugly period that pushed players away. As for the raids specifically, again, the game would have been in a better place, because it would not have attracted raiders, which drove GW2 players away, it would not have caused raid schisms within guilds, and the content and rewards currently attached to raids could have been released as story missions and more dungeon-scale elements.

 

>And since we know that the raid team is relative small, extremely small compared to the LS teams critics should have gone in this direction in the first place because there are the competence and main resources.

 

This is an argument raised *way* too often. The raid team is not "small." The *dedicated* raid team, the people who work 40 hours a week on *only* raiding, may be relatively small, but it's not like they are the only ones that touch a raid from start to finish. They don't go into specifics but the raids *obviously* draw in talent from all over the building, and probably dozens of people have had their hands in each raid encounter that is released. If not working on raids, that talent could have been working on other projects (or the same projects, but focused toward a larger audience).

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Frustration comes from the dificulty. You are frustrated when something doesnt go your way and judging by your vote thats the dificulty.

>

> But the way raids are structured, I could perform horribly and the raid could still succeed, if others carry me. Or I could perform flawlessly and the raid could fail, if some other players drop the ball. Personal success would reduce the odds of failure, but far from eliminate it. And again, even if by chance I reach some zen state where raids I'm a part of succeed 100% of the time, that does not negate the annoyance of the period in between.

>

Thats the case with every bit of content in gw2.

 

> >Bs. If i have to work hard for something having someone casually get it is just a slap to the face.

>

> No, it's very much not. Again I'll point you to the El Capitan example. Alex Honnold was the first man to freeclimb the face without gear, in 2017. There are 70 charted routes up that mountain, and also casual hiking routes, but the thousands that have completed those take nothing away from the accomplishment of Honnold. If you earned Legendary armor by paying gold to be carried through a bunch of hard mode raids, nothng could take that fact away from you, even if some other player earned his own by playing easy mode a bunch of times.

>

The reward is satisfaction. Its not something physical, unlike legendary armor which is and you can see it but you cant identify who got it easier than the other which makes it a slap to the face to those who made it legit.

 

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> >What has Fortnite to do with GW2? I'm comparing the relevant numbers and that are the ones from GW2 streams. This event is the strongest indication that there is a big enough player base interested in challenging content. It is a huge success that such an event can bundle several thousand viewers although it's not a streaming game. No other GW2 content is or was able to in the slightest.

>

> 3500 stream viewers is nothing though, with numbers like that it's completely irrelevant how many there were relative to other GW2 content.

>

Actually twitch is a great tool to tell a game's health and interest. Gw2 everages around 1k at prime time. Having a single streamer pull off 3-4k on 1 specific content is very indicative of that contents health wether you like it or not. Disregarding this does you as much good as disregarding the 9 momth drought and blaming the flop of hot to raids.

 

> >Probably, but not with easy mode raids since that isn't one of the most demanded things by players in other forum parts. Additionally the niche is not as small as some make us believe.

>

> Other things are other things, nobody is saying they shouldn't also do other things, but this is something that would be *relatively* lower effort and would produce a lot of worthwhile new content for a lot of players.

>

Wether it takes low effort or not you arent qualified to answer unless you have a plan with numbers and all.

 

Untill then ill assume that no it wouldnt and as a result production would overall be slower because some ppl arent content with the most consistent and regular form of content updates targeted at them and another part of the game has to get shafted because of them.

 

> >All that has nothing to do with raids. HoT open world stuff was too hard because players went in with their base specs and had problems. That's why they overhauled the maps.

>

> You said "It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released." My response was that it would have been better, because it wouldn't have had that ugly period that pushed players away. As for the raids specifically, again, the game would have been in a better place, because it would not have attracted raiders, which drove GW2 players away, it would not have caused raid schisms within guilds, and the content and rewards currently attached to raids could have been released as story missions and more dungeon-scale elements.

>

Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

 

> >And since we know that the raid team is relative small, extremely small compared to the LS teams critics should have gone in this direction in the first place because there are the competence and main resources.

>

> This is an argument raised *way* too often. The raid team is not "small." The *dedicated* raid team, the people who work 40 hours a week on *only* raiding, may be relatively small, but it's not like they are the only ones that touch a raid from start to finish. They don't go into specifics but the raids *obviously* draw in talent from all over the building, and probably dozens of people have had their hands in each raid encounter that is released. If not working on raids, that talent could have been working on other projects (or the same projects, but focused toward a larger audience).

 

Theres very much one group of devs that make raids as there are 3 teams that make living world. They do work work with artists ans sound designers but they arent part of the raid team and they dont work on the actual raid encounters.

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> This is an argument raised *way* too often. The raid team is not "small." The *dedicated* raid team, the people who work 40 hours a week on *only* raiding, may be relatively small, but it's not like they are the only ones that touch a raid from start to finish. They don't go into specifics but the raids *obviously* draw in talent from all over the building, and probably dozens of people have had their hands in each raid encounter that is released. If not working on raids, that talent could have been working on other projects (or the same projects, but focused toward a larger audience).

 

No, those resources are not bound to raids. They do the preliminary work for every other content as well. Therefore hey are *not* limiting other development because they help at refining raid content. The concrete raid team is small.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

 

Exactly this! This was their main mistake and the reason GW2 has a smaller community than it could have.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

>

> That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^

> It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

 

_Last months_ ?

 

Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

 

But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

 

What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

>

> Exactly this! This was their main mistake and the reason GW2 has a smaller community than it could have.

 

This, to be honest, is a great theory. One I would have also been willing to believe, if the numbers matched it at all. But the very next quarter following HoT's launch, funds went into a direct straight downward slope with no change until hype about PoF started.

 

So whatever happened had something to do with HoT directly. Feel free to blame gliding if that will make you feel better.

[Lonami.2987]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > For now, it's just a waiting game to see the tiny raid team at ANET come to their senses about this.

>

> Or see the Raid team get canned and raids go the way of Dungeons.

>

> That is also a possibility.

 

Wouldn't be the first time it happens, look at Urgoz and Kanaxai in GW1.

 

The alternative is raids being scrapped altogether, which isn't out of the radar either, but the elitists are too blind to see the real world by what it is. WildStar is the prime example of what happens when your content doesn't adapt to all types of players.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

> > >

> > > At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

> >

> > It wouldn't remove any players that belonged there. If anyone moves from the "real raids" to an easier version, it would only be cause they *preferred* the easier version, and if that's the case, then that *is* where they should be. That *is* the absolute best case scenario. *You* are not **owed** *their* help in making it easier for *you* to find a group. They do not work for you. Maybe offer to pay them if you want their labor for your benefit.

>

> Nobody is owed anything indeed but lets just go with the an hypothetical situation

> Content A has 100 people playing it.

>

> Content B gets introduced and the split bevonden

>

> A 70

> B 60

>

> And now we need to take into account the treshold for which lfg keeps working.

>

> Say that is 65 then content B will slowly lose players and the and situation is a löss of players.

>

> This is a counterargument against people don't own you anything. Just to make it clear.

 

None of the current raiders is going to leave normal mode to go play easy mode, just like no t4 fractal player goes back to lower tiers (except for specific dailies).

 

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

> > >

> > > Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

> >

> > At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

>

> And that is why T1/T2/T3 Fractals should go away. They are taking away the T4 players. Also remove T4 Fractals so that I can get more 99/100 CM players for my group even though I can already get players quickly. /s

 

Quoted for truth.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> >Now on raids: I believe they are fine the way they are. I'd like to bring a point videogamedunkey made in one of his videos: Games that have one set difficulty are much more interesting to play. They are set and balanced around this and they offer one solid experience. Not some varying health numbers, stat checks or what gives. Adding different difficulties completely changes the experience.

>

> And I'm going to reference a video by [Game Maker's Toolkit](

), that *not* having alternate difficulty modes can alienate potential players and greatly limit the number of people that can enjoy the gameplay mode. There is no harm in serving multiple audiences. Yes, it *obviously* changes the experience, but to many players, that "changed experience" is exactly what they are looking for.

>

> >Not everybody has to enjoy every little part of a game. If raiding isn't for you, don't do it. Don't cry about it, instead start working on getting in.

>

> You're presenting two completely contradictory arguments here, "Not everybody has to enjoy every little part of a game" and "instead start working on getting in." Which is it? Should players accept that this element will never be for them, or should they force themselves into it, even knowing that they will never enjoy it? If there is a reward that they want from it, should they be fine accepting that they will never have that thing, or should they endure an experience that they will never enjoy in order to acquire it?

>

> I feel like your basic argument boils down to "I'm fine with this, so you should be too, stop complaining about things that don't bother *me,* just because they bother *you."*

 

Good video.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.

> Adding easy mode would hardly be considered deleting raids from this game.

 

After 20+ pages of discussion, there's still no sound argument against easy mode raids, because let's face it, there isn't.

 

Your enjoyment of normal mode would never be affected by easy mode existing, unless you're an elitist jerk that only raids to feel superior to other players.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > U might not realise it but an easy mode will take away from the normal mode.

> >

> > No, it won't.

> >

> > >Namely it will either take longer to get a wing or the wing will be poorly made because they got more modes to worry about.

> >

> > Making the easy mode should not in any way distract the team from working on hard mode. It is just a matter of taking the hard mode and tuning back a few things. Besides, even if it did, that's *future* content, not *current* content. The *current* content would remain in place. There are no guarantees one way or the other about what *future* content would be like. You might argue that future content would be negatively impacted, but if the existence of easy mode makes it more popular overall, then it might just as easily result in *more and better* hard mode raids. There's no way of knowing in advance.

> >

> >

>

> Developers and development time doesnt grow on trees.

 

By that argument, why do we even get raids? We should only get PvE open world events, because that's what's popular and brings the most money.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > > Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?

> > > > > > They'd receive more time-gated resources per week.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You realize these are already irrelevant for active raiders, don't you? I have over 10k magnetite shards and no real use for them. What difference does it make if I get more or less of them?

> > > > In that case, if the rewards aren't a factor to you, there won't be a point to do easy mode at all, right? If you don't care easy mode gives rewards in less quantities (because you already have too much of them), then why would you want to do easy mode encounters at all, unless you simply didn't want to experience the normal mode?

> > > > (remember, the "less time" question was about reward acquisition speed, not boss kill speed)

> > > >

> > >

> > > Because there are other rewards too - exotics, ascended, gold, etc.

> > Well, obviously those in quantity would be different as well. It's not like anyone ever suggested that both normal and easy mode should have identical rewards in both quality and quantity. And to prevent encouraging people to do both modes to maximize drops (which might cause too much pressure), we could borrow the idea from fractals and make the normal mode award both rewards.

> >

> >

>

> The point is valid, however I believe we should first look at how the encounter should play then talk about the rewards as per the difficulty of said encounter. If the encounter is too easy and rewards too much, we will essentially be an on launch day istan v2.0 and will drastically be nerfed. Too liitle rewards, irregardless of ease, and we have another dungeon scenario.

>

> Might I ask a question of you:

> Ohoni and I have begun a discussion of how and what an easy mode VG would look like. How would you make an easy mode vg play, look, and feel?

>

> edit

> Speaking of,

>

> Ohoni, I apologize for not addressing your points prior to how easy mode vg should play like, but I believe that it was more important. I will get to the rest of the response when I have more time.

 

There are examples in the first pages. For example, Vale Guardian:

 

**Vale Guardian - easy mode**

 

* Failing a green does 1/3 of the damage it does in normal mode.

* Red orbs do less damage.

* Blues teleport you closer.

* Enrage timer has 2 extra minutes.

* Less CC needed for all break bars.

 

**Vale Guardian - hard mode**

 

* Need 6 players inside the green, or it's full wipe, unblockable.

* Red orbs do much more damage.

* Blues stun and teleport you into the air, you need stability to glide in time and avoid the falling damage, which isn't always fatal.

 

You don't need to change any mechanic, just tune in some numbers here and there. It's pretty much zero effort.

 

Another example, escort, with more complex changes for comparison:

 

**Escort - easy mode**

 

* Mines don't respawn.

* Mines don't insta-kill you anymore, you just get downed.

* Tower guards don't respawn.

* Wargs have less health points.

* Mushroom cave is less dangerous.

 

**Escort - hard mode**

 

* Mines explode when destroyed.

* Wargs have a breakbar now, and are invulnerable until broken.

* McLeod the Silent has retaliation in the color phase, and you get hurt if you attack your unassigned color.

 

As you see, these changes would still be pretty easy to do. You don't need a team of NASA engineers for easy/hard modes.

 

As for the rewards:

 

* **Easy mode:** Guaranteed exotic, chance for common ascended, magnetite.

* **Normal mode:** Guaranteed exotic, chance for unique ascended, magnetite, one Legendary Insight, plus easy mode rewards. Unlocks unique ascended in vendor.

* **Hard mode:** Guaranteed ascended, plus normal and easy mode rewards.

 

Additionally, there's a bonus Legendary Insight if you clear the whole wing in any mode.

 

That's all you need.

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

> >

> > That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> > This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^

> > It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

>

> _Last months_ ?

>

> Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

>

> But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

>

> What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

 

Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

 

If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

 

But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

> >

> > Exactly this! This was their main mistake and the reason GW2 has a smaller community than it could have.

>

> This, to be honest, is a great theory. One I would have also been willing to believe, if the numbers matched it at all. But the very next quarter following HoT's launch, funds went into a direct straight downward slope with no change until hype about PoF started.

>

> So whatever happened had something to do with HoT directly. Feel free to blame gliding if that will make you feel better.

 

Arent quarters like 3 months each? Like forgive me if my math was wrong but like for 3 quarters following hot launch there was no content.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Nah not really. Its a circle, if more ppl get the gear the intented way then new raids will be more comfortable adding new rewards of value.

So, you don't want to share the shinies, because you hope this way Anet will give you more exclusive shinies.

 

Yep, that's _totally_ not about not wanting to share.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Your manner of earning includes no hard work. Hard work is what u have rn.

No, it's just that you are extremely restrictive in your definition of hard work, and keep ignoring any example of it that does not fit your agenda.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > >That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> >

> > None of that sounds impressive enough to matter. GW2 isn't a streaming game, and there's been plenty of discussion as to why. GW2 is for players, not viewers.

>

> It does matter because it clearly shows that there is interest of lots of players and viewers for certain content.

Since when 4k is a lot? This game supposedly still has 7 digits of active players, remember?

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Nah not really. Its a circle, if more ppl get the gear the intented way then new raids will be more comfortable adding new rewards of value.

> So, you don't want to share the shinies, because you hope this way Anet will give you more exclusive shinies.

>

> Yep, that's _totally_ not about not wanting to share.

>

????????????????

 

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Your manner of earning includes no hard work. Hard work is what u have rn.

> No, it's just that you are extremely restrictive in your definition of hard work, and keep ignoring any example of it that does not fit your agenda.

>

No actually he/she(ohoni) said that he/she wants the experience to be comfortable all the way. Theres no hard work if you dont push yourself and you are pushing yourself when you are comfortable all the way throughout the experience.

 

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > >That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> > >

> > > None of that sounds impressive enough to matter. GW2 isn't a streaming game, and there's been plenty of discussion as to why. GW2 is for players, not viewers.

> >

> > It does matter because it clearly shows that there is interest of lots of players and viewers for certain content.

> Since when 4k is a lot? This game supposedly still has 7 digits of active players, remember?

>

>

 

I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

> > >

> > > Exactly this! This was their main mistake and the reason GW2 has a smaller community than it could have.

> >

> > This, to be honest, is a great theory. One I would have also been willing to believe, if the numbers matched it at all. But the very next quarter following HoT's launch, funds went into a direct straight downward slope with no change until hype about PoF started.

> >

> > So whatever happened had something to do with HoT directly. Feel free to blame gliding if that will make you feel better.

>

> Arent quarters like 3 months each? Like forgive me if my math was wrong but like for 3 quarters following hot launch there was no content.

 

Well, often, at least a quarter or two (3 - 6 months) after an expansion the Expansion itself should be the content, and keep player interest, but if you look at the numbers, they just dropped right off after HoT, like it had zero holding power, literally, less then 2 months after HoT's launch, spending went into direct straight decline. So, it didn't take a long time (or even enough time for there to be a dry spell of sorts, as an expansion should have some staying power) before we see a problem.

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > Gw2 atracting raiders pushed a small vocal minority away the bulk of players quit due to 9 months of nothing.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly this! This was their main mistake and the reason GW2 has a smaller community than it could have.

> > >

> > > This, to be honest, is a great theory. One I would have also been willing to believe, if the numbers matched it at all. But the very next quarter following HoT's launch, funds went into a direct straight downward slope with no change until hype about PoF started.

> > >

> > > So whatever happened had something to do with HoT directly. Feel free to blame gliding if that will make you feel better.

> >

> > Arent quarters like 3 months each? Like forgive me if my math was wrong but like for 3 quarters following hot launch there was no content.

>

> Well, often, at least a quarter or two (3 - 6 months) after an expansion the Expansion itself should be the content, and keep player interest, but if you look at the numbers, they just dropped right off after HoT, like it had zero holding power, literally, less then 2 months after HoT's launch, spending went into direct straight decline. So, it didn't take a long time (or even enough time for there to be a dry spell of sorts, as an expansion should have some staying power) before we see a problem.

 

I wonder why :thinking:

[STIHL.2489]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

> > >

> > > That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> > > This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^

> > > It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

> >

> > _Last months_ ?

> >

> > Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

> >

> > But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

> >

> > What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

>

> Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

>

> If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

>

> But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

 

Sure.

 

Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the _new Fractals_ which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders.

 

Kudos.