Grogba.6204 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Why are you raiding with people you don't like? I have control about with whom I want to raid. If you are unable to socialize within the game it is not the fault of raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay. > > In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress. > Solo assumes you have the skill and confidence to do so does it not? There are bosses that have been successfully soloed, why not attempt to solo those bosses as well and get 1 or 2 li per week to progress your legendary armor? Likewise squads and small parties assume you have people you want to play with correct? Do they want to try raiding as well? Low man raids have been done, is your small party willing to attempt a low man raid during their hours of play? If you're in a large squad, given your tag, I'd assume there are people there that you do genuinely enjoy playing with. Are they willing to try raids? How many of them are there? Are they also willing to low man should you fall short of 10? You say you can just tag up. I assume that means that you'll get people you don't like with you? Why is that different (other than sheer numbers) from tagging up and going to the lfg? There have been occasions where the commander was carried the the people they recruited. >You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. This seems to be a very common complaint among people who dislike raids. I find this to be very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Riiiight. One whole industry is just too lazy to figure it out. > Too unimaginative, to be more precise. Trying new things is risky and costly, so the industry keeps repeating old patterns over and over again until someone that didn't get the memo suddenly proves to them that something could be done better. And then the story repeats itself until the new change. It's way too naive to believe that. It's a business like any other, and the competition is quite real. The game design has evolved considerably as a result, in a relatively short time frame. There's cashing in, of course, like with every R&D, but that's beside the point. And just because you offer something different it doesn't mean it's better, or even works at all. Which, in this particular case, it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. You're in luck then, the game is both easy *and* accessible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > > > My experience in Wvw is that I can grab a couple camps, join up with a random squad and take a couple of towers for 3 hours and see real progress just in terms of the pips system. I have also done Raids for the same amount of time and haven’t seen any progress. Mainly with people leaving after a few wipes. Yeah I get some mag shards, but there is no progress to the armor. > > But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs? Not particularly used to the boss itself, as people come and go and so, you might not even make it to a new phase. I spent a lot of time in raids look at the clock and think where did all my time and then look at what I have to show for it. Hand full of mag shards and a lot of down time. The down time between trying the bosses and filling holes is huge sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > > > Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay. > > > > In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress. > > > > Solo assumes you have the skill and confidence to do so does it not? There are bosses that have been successfully soloed, why not attempt to solo those bosses as well and get 1 or 2 li per week to progress your legendary armor? > > Likewise squads and small parties assume you have people you want to play with correct? Do they want to try raiding as well? Low man raids have been done, is your small party willing to attempt a low man raid during their hours of play? If you're in a large squad, given your tag, I'd assume there are people there that you do genuinely enjoy playing with. Are they willing to try raids? How many of them are there? Are they also willing to low man should you fall short of 10? > > You say you can just tag up. I assume that means that you'll get people you don't like with you? Why is that different (other than sheer numbers) from tagging up and going to the lfg? There have been occasions where the commander was carried the the people they recruited. > > >You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > This seems to be a very common complaint among people who dislike raids. I find this to be very interesting. Are we comparing solo wvw to soloing a raid boss as being the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? That's a big assumption. Get few of those failed sessions and people start leaving. then you fill those spaces with new people, that start from zero, which lengthens the learning process, and then you suddenly realize that killing that boss took you a few months. (not a hypothetical, that's something that actually happened to me when i was starting raiding. First VG kill _really_ took over 3 months, and it took nearly half a year until the group was able to kill that boss on relatively consistent basis). If all that time was instead put into WvW, you'd already be halfway towards the leggie armor. > > Additionally, wiping in wvw does not in-fact keep your participation up. You have to kill camps and guards, or other players to keep it up. Assuming a worst case scenario for both scenes, that your wvw server is being spawn camped and hunted and that you are playing with noobs in raids, what would your participation be like at the end of a 3 hour run in that scenario? Max tier. Done that before, it's easy to keep participation up even if an enemy server is camping your spawn point. They are never able to isolate you on all exits from spawn points on all 4 maps (i don't remember the last time i have seen this done to even _one_ map). And those +5 pips per tick for Outmanned do help a lot too. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Is your sever, more, less, or just as likely to break out of the spawn camp during that 3 hour and the subsequent ones? i'd guess that depends on the matchup and hours. Although for the enemy server to camp spawn points on all 4 maps for 3 hours to the point you can't leave, the matchup would have to be more skewed than any i have seen so far. That would mean Anet kittened matchups really, really badly, like matching up a t1 server against one few tiers lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? > That's a big assumption. Get few of those failed sessions and people start leaving. then you fill those spaces with new people, that start from zero, which lengthens the learning process, and then you suddenly realize that killing that boss took you a few months. > (not a hypothetical, that's something that actually happened to me when i was starting raiding. First VG kill _really_ took over 3 months, and it took nearly half a year until the group was able to kill that boss on relatively consistent basis). If all that time was instead put into WvW, you'd already be halfway towards the leggie armor. > My assumption was made under the premise that the people with you would not leave, i.e you would not have to cycle through to re-teach otehrs. > > > > Additionally, wiping in wvw does not in-fact keep your participation up. You have to kill camps and guards, or other players to keep it up. Assuming a worst case scenario for both scenes, that your wvw server is being spawn camped and hunted and that you are playing with noobs in raids, what would your participation be like at the end of a 3 hour run in that scenario? > Max tier. Done that before, it's easy to keep participation up even if an enemy server is camping your spawn point. They are never able to isolate you on all exits from spawn points on all 4 maps (i don't remember the last time i have seen this done to even _one_ map). And those +5 pips per tick for Outmanned do help a lot too. > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Is your sever, more, less, or just as likely to break out of the spawn camp during that 3 hour and the subsequent ones? > i'd guess that depends on the matchup and hours. Although for the enemy server to camp spawn points on all 4 maps for 3 hours to the point you can't leave, the matchup would have to be more skewed than any i have seen so far. That would mean Anet kittened matchups really, really badly, like matching up a t1 server against one few tiers lower. > > I've had a very different experience in wvw, where when my server was on a loosing matchup, I struggled to keep my participation at t3. It dipped down to t1 on several occasions and proved to be rather difficult to get to increase it due to the sheer number of opponents that would be at every corner, making it difficult to even get to a camp to cap. And even if I got to a camp, their response time was impeccable, leading to me getting 10v1 on camp at a minimum. Thankfully my server, hod, hasn't gone back to t1 to my knowledge, but I haven't touched wvw to the same degree since then. I now just hop on there if there's an easy daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: >The devs never wanted the entire game to be "easy". Parts of it yes, hell even most it but they didmt want all of it to be easy. That may have been true, but "easy" was what they had for the first three years of the game, and it's what the game's community was built on. To then say "hey, all you players that made GW2 a success because you enjoyed easy, casual gameplay, we're making Legendary armor skins finally, but you can't have any of it." > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Riiiight. One whole industry is just too lazy to figure it out. Made my day bro. :lol: How long did it take someone to make a Battle Royale game mode? >And no, I don't just assume. I see it over and over, pretty much everywhere. That's called "confirmation bias." > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. By making the outcome less at risk, by making a random pug of 10 players as likely as a "trained raid guild's" 10 players to complete the content. Even in an easy mode, you will have *some* groups taking an elitist tack and insisting on having a "perfect meta" group that can clear the content in minimal times, but if any group *can* clear the content, then you will also have groups in the lfg that have no pre-conditions. That's how dungeons were at their peak, there were certainly the "warrior zerk only" LFGs, but there were also plenty of "whatever" LFGs, and they did just fine. >Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? That's an unreasonable assumption to make. >But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs? All irrelevant when non-training runs would not allow you to join without proof that you've completed dozens of kills. Besides, spending three+ hours fruitlessly mashing against a wall should not be a necessary part of the equation. If you spend three+ hours playing, you should have at least several boss kills under your belt before logging off. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. > > You're in luck then, the game is both easy *and* accessible. You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: >My assumption was made under the premise that the people with you would not leave, i.e you would not have to cycle through to re-teach otehrs. That is a *particularly* terrible assumption to make in Guild Wars 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > >How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. >By making the outcome less at risk, by making a random pug of 10 players as likely as a "trained raid guild's" 10 players to complete the content. Even in an easy mode, you will have some groups taking an elitist tack and insisting on having a "perfect meta" group that can clear the content in minimal times, but if any group can clear the content, then you will also have groups in the lfg that have no pre-conditions. That's how dungeons were at their peak, there were certainly the "warrior zerk only" LFGs, but there were also plenty of "whatever" LFGs, and they did just fine. The lfg for raids as far as I can tell mostly look for dps classes, or a chrono/druid/war. That or advertising guilds/selling raids. For a dps role, wouldn't you say that it's less rigid than war only? (unless you're a necro) >>Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? >That's an unreasonable assumption to make. not completely. Plus I made that assumption based on the signature "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't." >>But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs? >All irrelevant when non-training runs would not allow you to join without proof that you've completed dozens of kills. Besides, spending three+ hours fruitlessly mashing There are less than savory ways to get in even if you don't have kp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You concede by default it's ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to *not* play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who *aren't* like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also takes 10 times less effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Losing your way to the pvp legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same. > > > > > > > > > > How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids? > > > > > > > > One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable. > > > > > > So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches. > > > > Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more. > > You would have to have the mental fortitude of a Buddhist Monk to obtain Pvp armor that way. Same with buying farming the gold and making the armor for raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You concede by default it's ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to *not* play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who *aren't* like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also takes 10 times less effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Losing your way to the pvp legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same. > > > > > > > > > > How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids? > > > > > > > > One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable. > > > > > > So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches. > > > > Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more. > > And yet it still takes effort, heck it even takes more effort, because instead of playing other parts of the game your running in pvp for ages, collecting your 3 pips per loss instead of your 11 for a win. If your that dedicated to spend that much time logging in everyday and losing every matches, then I still call it effort or better yet dedication. Time spend isnt effort. And also im not talking about dedication here, the main reason the armor in raids is the most prestigious thing in game is not because its a time spend/dedication check reward. Its a reward based on beating the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. > > > > You're in luck then, the game is both easy *and* accessible. > > You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right. This made me think of this Image.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. > > > > > > If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other. > > > > How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. > > simply put they would make it easier. Exact same thing is available in ESO, WOW etc and the 'normal' mode raids are wildly more popular in comparison to the tuned 'hard mode' and that's in games where gear scores are important, GW2 doesn't have that chip on its shoulder to deal with so it can only be better. The bonus to Hared mode raids is that people will naturally gravitate up to hard mode as they get comfortable with fight mechanic is normal mode., so much needed blood there. On top of that Anet get more value for their dev cost for raids, so they are likely to build more. The only people that lose are those trying to keep raiding an exclusive club for selfish reasons, and thats a good thing (same people that complained when WOW introduced normal mode in WOTLk days etc) In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. What ppl ask here isnt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. > > > > > > > > If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other. > > > > > > How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. > > > > simply put they would make it easier. Exact same thing is available in ESO, WOW etc and the 'normal' mode raids are wildly more popular in comparison to the tuned 'hard mode' and that's in games where gear scores are important, GW2 doesn't have that chip on its shoulder to deal with so it can only be better. The bonus to Hared mode raids is that people will naturally gravitate up to hard mode as they get comfortable with fight mechanic is normal mode., so much needed blood there. On top of that Anet get more value for their dev cost for raids, so they are likely to build more. The only people that lose are those trying to keep raiding an exclusive club for selfish reasons, and thats a good thing (same people that complained when WOW introduced normal mode in WOTLk days etc) > > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. What ppl ask here isnt that. From what I read, the best gear in ESO is either Crafted or from Dungeons.. not Raids. But that was what the guides said.. and since I never played the game.. I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > >>Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? > >That's an unreasonable assumption to make. > > not completely. Plus I made that assumption based on the signature "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't." There aren't that many people willing to stick for weeks to a content while only failing. Most _raiders_ would not be willing to do that. And as for signature, one of its points is that raids unfortunately aren't a content that let you keep to that idea. It's a content that chooses the players you play with for you. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > >>But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs? > >All irrelevant when non-training runs would not allow you to join without proof that you've completed dozens of kills. Besides, spending three+ hours fruitlessly mashing > > There are less than savory ways to get in even if you don't have kp. Yes, there are. I respect other people's LFGs too much to cheat like that however. I don't consider the high (sometimes ridiculously high) reqs in LFGs to be players' fault. I think it's a result of mechanic that encourages (when grouping) prioritizing encounter experience way over any other factors. > @"zealex.9410" said: > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. "best gear" is also a very transitional state. Anyone willing to be an expac behind is able to get it without any problems whatsoever, because the common gear from the new expac will let him blow through any late expac encounters with ease. If in GW2 people knew that the new stuff from the newest wing will become more accessible half a year later, most of these arguments we're having now would go down very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > I am not asking for the game to be easy, I am asking for it to be accessible. > > > > > > > > If they wanted to make the game hard, they would force us to be nice to each other. > > > > > > How can they make it accessible, especially sine it's the players not the game that bars them from entry? The stance I take on that topic, is that people will be people, and will behave as they do now even in an easier version of raids. I.e. bar people from entry by being the only people putting up lfgs and using their standards for the group. > > > > simply put they would make it easier. Exact same thing is available in ESO, WOW etc and the 'normal' mode raids are wildly more popular in comparison to the tuned 'hard mode' and that's in games where gear scores are important, GW2 doesn't have that chip on its shoulder to deal with so it can only be better. The bonus to Hared mode raids is that people will naturally gravitate up to hard mode as they get comfortable with fight mechanic is normal mode., so much needed blood there. On top of that Anet get more value for their dev cost for raids, so they are likely to build more. The only people that lose are those trying to keep raiding an exclusive club for selfish reasons, and thats a good thing (same people that complained when WOW introduced normal mode in WOTLk days etc) > > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. What ppl ask here isnt that. So your fine with an easy mode, just nothing that helps with acquiring the Legendary Armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > >>Assuming that you are playing with the same people for the duration of the 3 hours and for the rest of your time raiding, would you say that you and your group are more, less, or just as likely to kill the boss during the next 3 hour session? > > >That's an unreasonable assumption to make. > > > > not completely. Plus I made that assumption based on the signature "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't." > There aren't that many people willing to stick for weeks to a content while only failing. Most _raiders_ would not be willing to do that. > > And as for signature, one of its points is that raids unfortunately aren't a content that let you keep to that idea. It's a content that chooses the players you play with for you. > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > >>But what of the boss itself? Are you more comfortable with its mechanics? Are you more aware of what needs to be done? Are you more confident in joining non training/kill runs? > > >All irrelevant when non-training runs would not allow you to join without proof that you've completed dozens of kills. Besides, spending three+ hours fruitlessly mashing > > > > There are less than savory ways to get in even if you don't have kp. > Yes, there are. I respect other people's LFGs too much to cheat like that however. I don't consider the high (sometimes ridiculously high) reqs in LFGs to be players' fault. I think it's a result of mechanic that encourages (when grouping) prioritizing encounter experience way over any other factors. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. > "best gear" is also a very transitional state. Anyone willing to be an expac behind is able to get it without any problems whatsoever, because the common gear from the new expac will let him blow through any late expac encounters with ease. > If in GW2 people knew that the new stuff from the newest wing will become more accessible half a year later, most of these arguments we're having now would go down very fast. > This is a true statement, the armor you obsesse about in a raid is easily obtained after the next xpac is released and soloable after two or three xpacs if I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You concede by default it's ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to *not* play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who *aren't* like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also takes 10 times less effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Losing your way to the pvp legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids? > > > > > > > > > > One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable. > > > > > > > > So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches. > > > > > > Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more. > > > > You would have to have the mental fortitude of a Buddhist Monk to obtain Pvp armor that way. > > Same with buying farming the gold and making the armor for raids. But you can fall back in the credit card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Nope, I most certainly don't have to agree on anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You concede by default it's ok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm burying my face in my hands right now. Figuratively and literally. "The amount of bugs should be negligible"? Oh my... As a rule of thumb, nothing is ever negligible or easy in game development. It often seems so, to outside people, because they imagine small, contained changes. What they fail to take into account is a game is a vast, complex system of interlocked sub-systems. There is very rarely such thing as a "contained" change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm well aware of the perils of bug-chasing, I do it daily, but my point is, this is largely not changes to *systems,* like adding entirely new mechanics, and mostly just a tweak of existing properties. If an attack works fine dealing 500 damage per hit then it should work just as well dealing 100 per hit. It's easier to go down than up, too. What you're arguing sounds like a "mysticism" argument, "don't tempt the dark gods of the forest, you never know when they will strike." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Not to mention finding the proper balance between "too challenging for non-raiders" and "complete faceroll" will require a lot of tweaking and even more testing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And again, getting it right on the first try is a lot less vital than with the initial raid releases, because nobody cares too much if they get it wrong. They can fix it in post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s fine. Then perhaps after finishing Raid Wing 10 they can take a break and develop an easy mode. 10 raid wings should keep people busy especially if they decide to put in a LI cap, which is going add it’s own set of problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesnt work like that. Those arent 10 new wings, at that point u will be doing wings 1 to 9 for years so an immense w8 for all the easy modes plus wing 10 would flat out kill the scene. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Same thing aplies to fractals and every bit of content in this game, the fact that it looks much doesnt change the fact that ppl have been playing it for years and are bound to get bored of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what you are saying is no matter what the suggestion is for an easy mode, even when it won’t interfere with raid development, that you won’t agree with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People in this forum don’t even think they will make it to Wing 10. Heck, I’ll take an easy mode when they are done after Wing 8. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im not saying i dissagree witha story mode or soemthing like that. I dissagree with it giving you the envoy set but that wasnt the point of my post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This where I would disagree, I think it should award the set, but make it take much longer, this gives the person the incentive to try the normal modes to complete it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. The set is awarded by beating the raids by overcomming them, you shouldnt get the armor for doing a strictly easier version. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh? Yeah but you can buy Raids and do absolutely nothing to get them. I could bring the credit card out and also have the legendary armor too. Really I’m actually surprised that no one is up in arms about Anet supporting that avenue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could, but it defeats the purpose. You'd be deliberately going out of your way in order to *not* play the game. There are always players like that, it can't be helped. And it's not a reason to screw up reward structure and incentives for players who *aren't* like that. That is to say, the players who this content was intended in the first place - those who ended up being raiders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure but an easy mode could supply the same thing. If it takes the person 7 months to obtain just the first set, and 13 months to obtain the additional sets. There is a natural incentive to want to complete those normal difficulties too, to obtain it faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s like pvp legendary armor, sure you can lose every match, but why would you? It takes over 3 times longer to lose your way to that armor set, not to mention the nature time gate of that set as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also takes 10 times less effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does? The easy mode or the pvp armor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Losing your way to the pvp legendary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, do me a favor, go lose every pvp match in order to obtain the Legendary Armor. You’ll get sick of losing, also the extra time that is pushed on you is enormous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Idc i can just afk there run arou d and have mock duels with others to pass my time. It will take me more time but in the grand scheme of thing i will be done without making a single drop of sweat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I could do the same with my credit card, zero effort. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Afking in a pvp match and working, making the money and giving saud money for a skin arent the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is running around in pvp getting the Legendary Armor for a long time any different then running around making gold for a long time and buying the raids? > > > > > > > > > > One will take you far far faaar longer than the other making the whole deal just undeasonable. > > > > > > > > So is running around aimlessly in pvp and going afk in matches. > > > > > > Yeah but runni g aimlessly in pvp takes no effort. Making the gold ingame or outside of it takes more. > > > > You would have to have the mental fortitude of a Buddhist Monk to obtain Pvp armor that way. > > Same with buying farming the gold and making the armor for raids. Really the best way that Anet could have combatted this in the first place would to have made the raid achievement items random drop, like we see in other achievements and in other raid mmos, that would stop the raid selling because the item isn’t a guarantee and it could take you 20 to 30 times to obtain it and that’s for one item. Then you would truly have your Envoy armor that required effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > > > > > Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay. > > > > > > In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > > > Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress. > > > > > > > Solo assumes you have the skill and confidence to do so does it not? There are bosses that have been successfully soloed, why not attempt to solo those bosses as well and get 1 or 2 li per week to progress your legendary armor? > > > > Likewise squads and small parties assume you have people you want to play with correct? Do they want to try raiding as well? Low man raids have been done, is your small party willing to attempt a low man raid during their hours of play? If you're in a large squad, given your tag, I'd assume there are people there that you do genuinely enjoy playing with. Are they willing to try raids? How many of them are there? Are they also willing to low man should you fall short of 10? > > > > You say you can just tag up. I assume that means that you'll get people you don't like with you? Why is that different (other than sheer numbers) from tagging up and going to the lfg? There have been occasions where the commander was carried the the people they recruited. > > > > >You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > This seems to be a very common complaint among people who dislike raids. I find this to be very interesting. > > Are we comparing solo wvw to soloing a raid boss as being the same? > yes.. yes they are.. this is what you are dealing with.. now understand some peoples frustration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > > > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > > > > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > > > > > > > Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay. > > > > > > > > In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > > > > > Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress. > > > > > > > > > > Solo assumes you have the skill and confidence to do so does it not? There are bosses that have been successfully soloed, why not attempt to solo those bosses as well and get 1 or 2 li per week to progress your legendary armor? > > > > > > Likewise squads and small parties assume you have people you want to play with correct? Do they want to try raiding as well? Low man raids have been done, is your small party willing to attempt a low man raid during their hours of play? If you're in a large squad, given your tag, I'd assume there are people there that you do genuinely enjoy playing with. Are they willing to try raids? How many of them are there? Are they also willing to low man should you fall short of 10? > > > > > > You say you can just tag up. I assume that means that you'll get people you don't like with you? Why is that different (other than sheer numbers) from tagging up and going to the lfg? There have been occasions where the commander was carried the the people they recruited. > > > > > > >You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > > > This seems to be a very common complaint among people who dislike raids. I find this to be very interesting. > > > > Are we comparing solo wvw to soloing a raid boss as being the same? > > > > yes.. yes they are.. this is what you are dealing with.. now understand some peoples frustration? I need to make an example of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > > > >Anything you do in WvW/PvP gives you progress towards your goal. Raids on the other hand are binary in its nature. You fail the boss, you get zero progress. > > > > > > So, if you go in for 3 hours of WvW, you know that at the end of it you will be closer to your goal. In case of raids, you might end in the very same place you started. And not necessarily due to your faults. > > > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. Failing the boss rewards 1-5 magnetites depending on which stage of the fight you wiped. Additionally, it teaches you what not to do for that boss, leading you to play better next time. Going on your example of wvw, the 3 hours you speak of could have been spent constantly wiping as a solo roamer to 5-50 man squads. Would that be any different than wiping to a boss for 3 hours? > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S. No offense intended, but the question was pointed towards @Tyson.5160. I thank you for your interpretation of it, but I would like to know of @Tyson.5160's thoughts on the matter so that there is no misinterpretation. > > > > > > > > > > Well first off, with WvW you get a lot of choices on how you want to interact with the game mode, you could solo (and take all the risks associated with that), you could also run in small strike squads, go with huge zergs, put up a tag yourself and see what happens. Maybe just duo, or, in some cases, golem rush garrison while a zerg commander is trying to take bay. > > > > > > > > > > In a Raid, you are pretty much stuck doing this content 9 other people, who you may or may not like, and are just dealing with them because you want the loot. On top of that, a single other person can totally ruin the raid, troll it to the point of failure, and not to mention, all that prep time to get the squad going just got lost. I mean you could be just sitting around waiting for people to join the raid run for a long time, in which case you get nothing for your time investment. You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > > > > > > > Such is not the case with WvW, In WvW, you are in total control of your fun and your progress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solo assumes you have the skill and confidence to do so does it not? There are bosses that have been successfully soloed, why not attempt to solo those bosses as well and get 1 or 2 li per week to progress your legendary armor? > > > > > > > > Likewise squads and small parties assume you have people you want to play with correct? Do they want to try raiding as well? Low man raids have been done, is your small party willing to attempt a low man raid during their hours of play? If you're in a large squad, given your tag, I'd assume there are people there that you do genuinely enjoy playing with. Are they willing to try raids? How many of them are there? Are they also willing to low man should you fall short of 10? > > > > > > > > You say you can just tag up. I assume that means that you'll get people you don't like with you? Why is that different (other than sheer numbers) from tagging up and going to the lfg? There have been occasions where the commander was carried the the people they recruited. > > > > > > > > >You don't really have a lot of control in raids, no matter how good or bad you are, you are at the mercy of the competency of the 9 other people in the encounter with you. > > > > > > > > This seems to be a very common complaint among people who dislike raids. I find this to be very interesting. > > > > > > Are we comparing solo wvw to soloing a raid boss as being the same? > > > > > > > yes.. yes they are.. this is what you are dealing with.. now understand some peoples frustration? > > I need to make an example of this. Maybe if that player had 22 million health, split into separate characters at 66% and 33% and could instant kill you if you didn’t step in his green circles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: >The lfg for raids as far as I can tell mostly look for dps classes, or a chrono/druid/war. That or advertising guilds/selling raids. For a dps role, wouldn't you say that it's less rigid than war only? (unless you're a necro) It still typically insists on some sort of credentials that you already know what you're doing, and if a group *doesn't* have such requirements then likely *nobody* will be succeeding that night. That's the problem, groups *have* to be selective because the content *requires* them to be selective. I remember back to when I was doing dungeons fairly regularly and sometimes I *knew* that one of the other players had no idea what he was doing and was a complete drag on everyone else, but it was ok, because he didn't *need* to carry his share, we'd try to nudge him along as best we could and hard carry him through the rest, and it didn't matter because we could still beat the dungeon and it was less hassle than kicking him and finding someone better. And chances are he eventually got better enough to feel the exact same thing about some other player. >not completely. Plus I made that assumption based on the signature "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't." GW2 is a very casual social game. It's not one of those games where you're meant to group with the same players regularly unless that's what you *want* to do. You're meant to be able to show up at a random time and place and link up with whoever happens to be there at the time, and for that to work out just fine. It's about the community as a whole, over small pockets within that community. > There are less than savory ways to get in even if you don't have kp. I don't think that "lie and cheat" should be the solution here. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Time spend isnt effort. And also im not talking about dedication here, the main reason the armor in raids is the most prestigious thing in game is not because its a time spend/dedication check reward. Its a reward based on beating the content. There's no such thing as a prestigious thing in this game, especially not Envoy armor. Don't allow your delusions in the matter impede anyone else being able to get the skins that they want. > @"zealex.9410" said: > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. What ppl ask here isnt that. Why should players who enjoy harder content be rewarded more than those that do not? > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Really the best way that Anet could have combatted this in the first place would to have made the raid achievement items random drop, like we see in other achievements and in other raid mmos, that would stop the raid selling because the item isn’t a guarantee and it could take you 20 to 30 times to obtain it and that’s for one item. Then you would truly have your Envoy armor that required effort. I understand the theory here, but I really dislike hunting for random drops, and hope to avoid that sort of thing whenever possible. The best way to combat raid selling is just to present other options so that raid buying is not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > >The lfg for raids as far as I can tell mostly look for dps classes, or a chrono/druid/war. That or advertising guilds/selling raids. For a dps role, wouldn't you say that it's less rigid than war only? (unless you're a necro) > > It still typically insists on some sort of credentials that you already know what you're doing, and if a group *doesn't* have such requirements then likely *nobody* will be succeeding that night. That's the problem, groups *have* to be selective because the content *requires* them to be selective. I remember back to when I was doing dungeons fairly regularly and sometimes I *knew* that one of the other players had no idea what he was doing and was a complete drag on everyone else, but it was ok, because he didn't *need* to carry his share, we'd try to nudge him along as best we could and hard carry him through the rest, and it didn't matter because we could still beat the dungeon and it was less hassle than kicking him and finding someone better. And chances are he eventually got better enough to feel the exact same thing about some other player. > > >not completely. Plus I made that assumption based on the signature "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't." > > GW2 is a very casual social game. It's not one of those games where you're meant to group with the same players regularly unless that's what you *want* to do. You're meant to be able to show up at a random time and place and link up with whoever happens to be there at the time, and for that to work out just fine. It's about the community as a whole, over small pockets within that community. > > > There are less than savory ways to get in even if you don't have kp. > > I don't think that "lie and cheat" should be the solution here. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Time spend isnt effort. And also im not talking about dedication here, the main reason the armor in raids is the most prestigious thing in game is not because its a time spend/dedication check reward. Its a reward based on beating the content. > > There's no such thing as a prestigious thing in this game, especially not Envoy armor. Don't allow your delusions in the matter impede anyone else being able to get the skins that they want. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > In wow and id assume in eso the harder versions come with the best gear. What ppl ask here isnt that. > > Why should players who enjoy harder content be rewarded more than those that do not? > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Really the best way that Anet could have combatted this in the first place would to have made the raid achievement items random drop, like we see in other achievements and in other raid mmos, that would stop the raid selling because the item isn’t a guarantee and it could take you 20 to 30 times to obtain it and that’s for one item. Then you would truly have your Envoy armor that required effort. > > I understand the theory here, but I really dislike hunting for random drops, and hope to avoid that sort of thing whenever possible. The best way to combat raid selling is just to present other options so that raid buying is not necessary. > I hate hunting for random drops too. Raid selling wouldn’t exist if everyone could do the raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now