Feanor.2358 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > And I'm saying "ok, let's go with that." > > > > > > > > Fine. Go ahead, make your own game and go with that. :) > > > > > > I don't have the resources, but I am providing customer feedback to ANet that I would enjoy their product more if they developed these features, and that I believe a good many others would feel the same way. > > > > Beliefs do not pay bills you know. > > No, happy customers do, which is why feedback is so important. You mistake personal opinion for statistically valid average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > And I'm saying "ok, let's go with that." > > > > > > > > > > Fine. Go ahead, make your own game and go with that. :) > > > > > > > > I don't have the resources, but I am providing customer feedback to ANet that I would enjoy their product more if they developed these features, and that I believe a good many others would feel the same way. > > > > > > Beliefs do not pay bills you know. > > > > No, happy customers do, which is why feedback is so important. > > You mistake personal opinion for statistically valid average. No, you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grogba.6204 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Yes Grogba, good, agree that soloing a raid boss is the exact same thing as solo roaming in WvW. SMC or any of the Keeps can be done solo then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > And I'm saying "ok, let's go with that." > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine. Go ahead, make your own game and go with that. :) > > > > > > > > > > I don't have the resources, but I am providing customer feedback to ANet that I would enjoy their product more if they developed these features, and that I believe a good many others would feel the same way. > > > > > > > > Beliefs do not pay bills you know. > > > > > > No, happy customers do, which is why feedback is so important. > > > > You mistake personal opinion for statistically valid average. > > No, you do. Except the only solid fact we know - the continued development - supports my point, not yours. Didn't you cite Occam's Razor somewhere in these topics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > No, it's not. > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > And I'm saying "ok, let's go with that." > > > > Fine. Go ahead, make your own game and go with that. :) > > I don't have the resources, but I am providing customer feedback to ANet that I would enjoy their product more if they developed these features, and that I believe a good many others would feel the same way. Im sure the resources needed are not much. Much like you believe they arent for anet to make new easy modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Yes Grogba, good, agree that soloing a raid boss is the exact same thing as solo roaming in WvW. > > SMC or any of the Keeps can be done solo then? That wasn’t the comparison... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. The majority are however going to enjoy 10 man raiding in an easier format - proven over many years by all the other AAA mmorpg where the population of normal level raids FAR FAR outstrips the niche that want raids in a tightly tuned format. So maybe you should ask yourself why you feel 'entitled' to argue against provided content for the majority, content that every other AAA mmoprg provides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 It's sad to see such rude posts almost trying to hijack the discussion because "Other MMOs did it". Raids are accessible to your average gamer with average amount of free time. There doesn't need to be more modes which only splits a community further. Raiding is the end game PVE content, it's meant to be the hardest and if you have the required time and skill you can easily work your way up. Join a TS server, join a guild that does training runs. Get 1 kill, then slowly progress. You're not meant to just get it straight away. More modes is a silly idea, and GW2 is probably the best MMO at the moment because it's filtering out so many bad habits other MMOs have. This thread is just bickering, nothing constructive at all. It's the same people who think any player that asks for any sort of standard is "Elitist/toxic" this sort of attack mentality is very common with certain groups. You are free to start you own guild, own group, have your own requirements. No-one is stopping you but YOURSELF or the time you have. It's not up to AANET to lower it down, it's @ a perfectly reasonable level all ready. What's more, is that this game has such a horizontal gear system that basically makes raiding even more easier to get into. Many other MMOs your gear becomes obsolete every raid patch, and you can't even start raiding if you have the time and skill because you need the gear, and then you have to work your gear up before you can even enter the latest raid. A lot of childish behavior making demands based on their own agenda and hatred towards harder content and skill requirements. GW2 raiding is fine, and there are many, many MMOs out there with raiding you may prefer but I bet you 10 Quaggans GW2 raiding is still a lot easier to get into than they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Grogba.6204" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Yes Grogba, good, agree that soloing a raid boss is the exact same thing as solo roaming in WvW. > > SMC or any of the Keeps can be done solo then? Not usually (although i _have_ done that before). On the other hand you don't usually do keeps and SM when soloing, and yet it doesn't have any negative impact on your legendary armor progress. You definitely can solo camps, dolyaks, sentinels, even towers, which is hardly comparable to soloing any hard PvE instanced group content. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? No. The current raids would remain unchanged. As you already know. And i don't see any difference between hardcore and casual players asking for more content (apart from hardcores not being as numerous, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. > > No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Except the only solid fact we know - the continued development - supports my point, not yours. Didn't you cite Occam's Razor somewhere in these topics? The continued development supports nothing in particular. We know *some* people enjoy the mode, that's not in dispute, the question is how many *more* players they could engage by making changes to the mode. Further, sometimes they just develop things because *they* want to do it, so continued development is not an indicator of player engagement. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Im sure the resources needed are not much. Much like you believe they arent for anet to make new easy modes. That doesn't speak well for your credibility. > @"Despond.2174" said: > It's sad to see such rude posts almost trying to hijack the discussion because "Other MMOs did it". Raids are accessible to your average gamer with average amount of free time. In some games, maybe, but not in GW2, which is the game we're discussing. Please don't bring other games into this. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. And that would remain, for those players. The easy mode would be for the *other* players who have been left out by the existing implementation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > > > > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > > > > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. > > > > No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. > > That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > > > > > > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > > > > > > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. > > > > > > No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. > > > > That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. > > Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. > > put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. > > The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart. The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. U already got what you asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. Can we *please* move past the "some raid encounters are easier than others" excuse by now? We're talking about opening up ALL the raid encounters for casual players, *not* to have "a curve." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. > > Can we *please* move past the "some raid encounters are easier than others" excuse by now? > > We're talking about opening up ALL the raid encounters for casual players, *not* to have "a curve." Itis not necessary tho thanks to said curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. > > > > Can we *please* move past the "some raid encounters are easier than others" excuse by now? > > > > We're talking about opening up ALL the raid encounters for casual players, *not* to have "a curve." > > Itis not necessary tho thanks to said curve. Said curve accomplishes nothing. It's like saying that installing a shower isn't important because it rains from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > > > > > > > > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > > > > > > > > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. > > > > > > > > No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. > > > > > > That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. > > > > Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. > > > > put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. > > > > The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart. > > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. > > U already got what you asking. Wrong, the majority of players do not in fact play raids in GW2, the majority of players do in fact play normal difficulty raids in every other AAA mmorpg. Ipso facto, GW2 raid content is not in fact what the majority want. You should ask yourself why is it you are so threatened by offering a normal mode raid, it would benefit current raid population, it offers more content for all including raiders. So what is it you are trying to protect exactly - self interest perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 duplicate........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Sure, but those bosses _aren't_ in those "other" mmos. They are here, in GW2. And in here there ain't anything normal about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > And this is not a problem. It is an essential part of the experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it's not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a part that *you* value, and those that value it should experience it, but not everyone does value it, and those who do not, should have alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It needs to fail in order to create a sense of real danger, real difficulty and real challenge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That sounds like a hard mode thing, which is fine, in hard mode, but not everyone wants that, and there should be versions without that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A lot of "problems" you see I don't consider problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, but *not* for good reasons, just because they are outside of your personal experience and you seem to have difficulty putting yourself in anyone else's shoes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. WOW had the exact same thing, elitist player demanding that raids remain tightly tuned because that's the only way they are fun, when in reality they were trying to keep the exclusive club exclusive for only players that can committing to long periods of continuous play sessions. Then Blizzard realized the majority of player base wanted to experience the content too, but in a more relaxed easier format, and now the vast majority of player enjoy raids. Same deal going on here in GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example : i spent 10 thousand hours raiding on a single main a long time ago, I know how to raid. However my lifestyle has changed, i'm playing a more casual mmorpg now now and I still want to enjoy 10 man raids along with the majority of the player base but in a format where you can lfg it and its easy enough that both the build drama and elitism subsides. > > > > > > > > > > > > Entitled casual player demands resources to turn raids into a casual experience. Ok? > > > > > > > > > > > > Join a guild. Im sure that was the best option back in the game u used to raid for 10k hours. > > > > > > > > > > No-one is 'entitled' to raids in its current format because the majority are not actually interested in raids in the current format. > > > > > > > > That's *by design*. And the reason is, because said majority already has plenty of content to enjoy. Raids were added as a specific design catering to specific auditory. So they, too, have something to enjoy in the game. > > > > > > Yup its designed for a niche at the moment and that's what the whole debate is about. Its not mutually exclusive, just because the majority (and raiders btw) have 'plenty of content' does not mean the majority and raiders should not get normal difficulty raids - just like every other AAA mmorpg with raids out there. > > > > > > put it this way, the smart development move is to design for the masses, then tweak for the niche - so count your chickens, that's not a cost effective approach, especially given the precedent out there in other games. > > > > > > The 'majority should not get raids they want because they have lots of stuff, is a very selfish viewpoint btw, your basically arguing to not give the majority maximum value because the niche want to keep it for themselves. Yet Ironically more people playing normal mode would be a lifeblood for tightly tuned raids long term - biting off the nose to spite the face aint smart. > > > > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. Some boses are at that normal and some are above but theres a curve which makes transition possible. > > > > U already got what you asking. > > Wrong, the majority of players do not in fact play raids in GW2, the majority of players do in fact play normal difficulty raids in every other AAA mmorpg. Ipso facto, GW2 raid content is not in fact what the majority want. You should ask yourself why is it you are so threatened by offering a normal mode raid, it would benefit current raid population, it offers more content for all including raiders. So what is it you are trying to protect exactly - self interest perhaps? Thank god that raids in GW2 are around normal difficulty in other games so the majority could play it if they actually wanted. The majority in other games actually does not even play instanced content without automatic matchmaking anymore. (LFR is far far away from 'normal') Difficulty scales are _not_ more content. Yes of course it is self interest. But same goes for the easy mode crowd unless you want an easy mode in the game and never plan to play it. WoW and FFXIV showed that it does infact not benefit the current raiding population. Raids are the least updated PvE content in the game. If you don't have enough content right now easy mode won't change that while also delaying content for those who play raids right now. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The raids or rather alot ofnthe bosses in the raids we have are far bellow the "normal" of other mmos u speak of. > Sure, but those bosses _aren't_ in those "other" mmos. They are here, in GW2. And in here there ain't anything normal about them. Yes because unlike the rest of the game they are supposed to be challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > You're in no position to judge that for any other person. If someone says the game is not easy and not accessible, he's right. > > Following the very same logic, if I say the game is easy and accessible, I'm right. Now what? But, you are only speaking for yourself.. No one else. You are in no place to say how hard or the easy the game is for anyone else. If someone else says the game is to too hard and inaccessible, they are right as well, and you need to accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hume.2876 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 WoW had more players in Burning Crusade then they did after implementing easy mode raids. ez-mode raiding is a cost savings tactic. It's not a pure winner with regards to the player base. Fractals is a good example of multiple mode content and the problem is its less fun to do a fractal at higher difficulty then it is to do new Fractal. But wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals? Then 'versions' of the same thing? I know I would.. Making things less fun is a dangerous game.. It does save development time and money but can drive people out of the game. Aspirational content is very important for an MMO - the runaway success of WoW with its brutal raids in Vanilla and BC is proof of that. Let everyone experience that aspirational content - and you will lose not just the high end customers but your most IMPORTANT customers. The guys that many players want to be like..(even if realistically they know they don't have the time). This is the problem WoW had after implementing easy mode raids despite making a BILLION dollars a quarter - they pretended they were too 'poor' to implement exclusive content for different difficulty levels. Now small time GW2 has an excuse to make 25 instead of 100 fractals but don't think its how players would want it in a perfect world.. Rather then create ez mode raids they should fix the dungeons such that they have more of a purpose.. Dungeons are kinda broken - but I know alot of active raiders. So clearly the issue is not raiding.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 > @"Hume.2876" said: > WoW had more players in Burning Crusade then they did after implementing easy mode raids. ez-mode raiding is a cost savings tactic. It's not a pure winner with regards to the player base. > > Fractals is a good example of multiple mode content and the problem is its less fun to do a fractal at higher difficulty then it is to do new Fractal. But wouldn't you rather have 100 different fractals? Then 'versions' of the same thing? I know I would.. > > Making things less fun is a dangerous game.. It does save development time and money but can drive people out of the game. Aspirational content is very important for an MMO - the runaway success of WoW with its brutal raids in Vanilla and BC is proof of that. Let everyone experience that aspirational content - and you will lose not just the high end customers but your most IMPORTANT customers. The guys that many players want to be like..(even if realistically they know they don't have the time). > > This is the problem WoW had after implementing easy mode raids despite making a BILLION dollars a quarter - they pretended they were too 'poor' to implement exclusive content for different difficulty levels. Now small time GW2 has an excuse to make 25 instead of 100 fractals but don't think its how players would want it in a perfect world.. > > Rather then create ez mode raids they should fix the dungeons such that they have more of a purpose.. Dungeons are kinda broken - but I know alot of active raiders. So clearly the issue is not raiding.. I played an MMO that each Dungeon had at least 4 Difficulty Modes, and Every Raid had at least 3. With upwards to 10 difficulty modes for Dungeons and 6 (or more now) for Raids. Made the game great, people could do teaching/training/short-man runs on the easier settings, and opt for better chances by running the harder stuff. For Crafting Dungeons (That would be what GW2 has, where there is no rare named Raid Loot, it's all just mats and you make your own gear), the harder the difficulty the more mats dropped, so it was always worth it to do the hardest difficulty you could. That system worked amazing, and kept raids alive and well with a constant cycle of fresh blood doing them, and got most of the game involved in them, so I have no idea what everyone is crying about. To me it seems foolish not to do this kind thing as I have seen and played for many years it's successful implementation. What ya all crying about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > Thank god that raids in GW2 are around normal difficulty in other games so the majority could play it if they actually wanted. The majority in other games actually does not even play instanced content without automatic matchmaking anymore. (LFR is far far away from 'normal') But they are *not* are the "normal" scale of difficulty for GW2, which is the issue. >Difficulty scales are not more content. Of course they are. Not for the people already playing raids, obviously, but for the around 75%+ of the population that don't, it would be new content, since the raids do not currently exist to them in any meaningful way. >Yes of course it is self interest. But same goes for the easy mode crowd unless you want an easy mode in the game and never plan to play it. Except that the "easy mode" crowd is only acting to *expand* the options available, not to *limit* the options available. We aren't saying *"you* can't play hard raids," we're saying "why can't *we* play easier ones?" Don't try to paint them as equivalent positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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