Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

 

While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

>What I was trying to say is that even with "easy mode" raids you will still always need time to learn the minimum.

 

If so then that's a failure of an easy mode. The whole point of having an easy mode is that you *don't* need training to clear it.

 

Period.

 

> If you go to an unknown boss, how do you expect to kill it?

 

The same way I do in story missions, I avoid the red circles on the ground and hit it until it stays down.

 

>No, you will need to know that there are some circles that do this and some circles that do that, so you will always need some time to actually know that and learn how to deal with it.

 

Again, in hard mode, yes. In easy mode, knowing this stuff should be useful, and should improve your kill times and reduce risk, but a full party of players actually attempting to clear the mission should still be able to beat it in short order, especially if any of them have prior knowledge of *basically* what to look for.

 

>Also, I don't think you could beat the boss if you don't actually try to dodge the teleport. Even if they cut VG's HP drastically -say, they give him 10million HP instead of the current 22million, if you are getting teleported all the time the DPS will never be enough.

 

I actually think they should leave his HP alone, which would give a longer easy mode than hard mode. Where I think they need to change it is removing the enrage timer and greatly reducing the damage being flung around, so that the encounter would be likely to take longer than normal mode, but stand a much higher chance of everyone surviving it.

 

>Aside from that, I'm curious -do you think that easy mode should give any reward?

 

I think it deserves a reward as much as normal mode does. Both are just modes inside a video game, you can't "earn" anything inside a game, you can only be gifted it for participating, and there's no reason people who enjoy normal mode are more worthy of gifts than people who enjoy easy mode. I think it would be fine as a concession for the normal mode to offer a higher quantity of reward than the easy mode, but never unique rewards that couldn't be earned *at all* elsewhere.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

 

 

One thing I cannot understand is, raiders constantly say "you just want the shinies," as if that is somehow *not* a valid motivation, and then almost immediately after say "but you can't have my shinies because then I wouldn't even bother playing," acknowledging that they just want the shinies too. Can't we just all agree that we all want the shinies and move past that argument? Either shinies matter, in which case non-raiders have the right to request access to them, or they don't matter, in which case raiders have no reason to hoard them.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> Because raids are supposed to be kind of hard. There is A LOT of content made for casuals and people who just want to autoattack. Go for it. Leave the challenging content to those willing to take the challenge.

>

> I don't like open world PvE and I don't go crying to anet asking them to change it in a way that will make me enjoy it. If I don't like it, I don't play it. If I want open world PvE shinies, I play the content as it is even if I don't like it. It would'nt make sense for me to cry for changes. It is how it is.

 

Just because you are a quitter doesn't mean all of us should be. I fight for the things I want, and will continue to do so.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> Legendary armor has the exact same stats as ascended. There is no gear grind, do you even know what that word means? Or is PvP and WvW also gear grind as you can earn legendary armor there too?

 

It's not about the stats, it's about the skins. That doesn't make it any less "gear grind."

 

 

 

 

[nia.4725]

You're not fighting for anything if you cry to anet to cheese you raids because they're difficult and you want to clear them just by pressing 1.

The skins are absolutely horrible, lawl. They even have issues with dyes.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> You're not fighting for anything if you cry to anet to cheese you raids because they're difficult and you want to clear them just by pressing 1.

 

Sure I am, although you seem to be misunderstanding what I am fighting for if you believe you're fairly representing my position.

 

>The skins are absolutely horrible, lawl. They even have issues with dyes.

 

Ok, then don't fight efforts to make them available outside of normal mode raiding.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > >Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > >

> > > Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to *pursue* those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a *value* of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or *should.* That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

> > >

> > > >No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

> > >

> > > I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

> > >

> > > >You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > >

> > > I *could,* but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which *would* make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

> > >

> > > >I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > >

> > > As John Oliver would say, "cool."

> > >

> > > >If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

> > >

> > > Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel *pleased* with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

> > >

> > > I have fun *beating* encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel *really* good at it. But I want to *beat* it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making *significant* improvement on *each* attempt.

> > >

> > > We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

> >

> > So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

> >

> > Then why do you want to raid?

>

> Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

 

Isn’t that why anyone raids?

[Tyson.5160]

Honestly the more this discussion continues , the more it seems apparent that there should be a non-raid set of PVE Legendary armor.

[zealex.9410]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > >The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is *exactly* why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because I have neither the time, crayons or alcohol tolerance to deal with that kind of kitten in a game anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry, doing that is simply not fun for me, and I am not going to play a game to frustrate myself, if that is what works for you, kudos, but I played GW2 because is was supposed to be the MMO for the _other players_, if I just wanted to deal with the same old same old I could have gotten from WoW.. I'd have just played WoW.

> > > >

> > > > then don't do raids. lol you're crying because you don't want to do something that is not fun for you so instead of playing something fun for you, you want arenanet to change it so it pleases you

> > > >

> > > > 10/10

> > >

> > > Yes.. exactly in same way elitist players wanted harder content put in placate them.. I want the same kind of content put in _easier_ to placate me.

> >

> > You only have 95% of the game. Poor boy.

>

> ...and you have 100%.. yet we both paid the same.. if they gave me a discount. .. or sold raid separately.. I'd also be content.

 

Yes but ppl who raid amor ask for raids are more likely to hae fun with only that 5%. Having the whole game available doesnt mean shit if its not fun.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

> I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

>

> While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

 

I never said anything about enjoying it.. I said it was designed to stonewall me. There is a massive difference between those two.

 

I may not like doing Map Hearts, but they are designed to be very accessible to me.

 

I may love the idea of large instance based content where myself and 9 other friends do it.. but Raids are designed to be very inaccessible to me.

 

Comprehend the Difference.. this has nothing to do with "Enjoy" or "Like" and everything to do with bad design.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Honestly the more this discussion continues , the more it seems apparent that there should be a non-raid set of PVE Legendary armor.

 

That's your take away ?

 

My take away is that we have a select bunch of people who are living the in the entitlement era.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > > > > >The thing is that you won't be able to kill a raid boss without a proper rotation. Raid bosses can't be killed pressing whatever buttons. Try to go to a raid boss with 10 people who won't do a rotation: you'll fail miserably. And I can assure you that once you've done your rotation many times you have it so internalized that you don't think about it -you just execute it. And then raids are very chill, if you have a decent group.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >Raids are end-game content, they're supposed to be the most challenging content ingame. That means they can't be cheesed, they are supposed to be difficult. They are supposed to require an special effort in order to beat them. Not just going there with whatever and doing whatever. If you want to kill the boss you need to play as good as you can. If you aren't willing to do that, I'm afraid raids are not for you.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Exactly! See, nobody else seems to get it, that is *exactly* why an easy mode is needed, because the current version alone can't possibly cut it for most players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else? It's just an effort. Do the effort and you'll be able to raid. You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you? Believe in yourself and try. I swear, I am not a very skilled player, I'm nowhere near a pro, I just persevered.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because I have neither the time, crayons or alcohol tolerance to deal with that kind of kitten in a game anymore.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sorry, doing that is simply not fun for me, and I am not going to play a game to frustrate myself, if that is what works for you, kudos, but I played GW2 because is was supposed to be the MMO for the _other players_, if I just wanted to deal with the same old same old I could have gotten from WoW.. I'd have just played WoW.

> > > > >

> > > > > then don't do raids. lol you're crying because you don't want to do something that is not fun for you so instead of playing something fun for you, you want arenanet to change it so it pleases you

> > > > >

> > > > > 10/10

> > > >

> > > > Yes.. exactly in same way elitist players wanted harder content put in placate them.. I want the same kind of content put in _easier_ to placate me.

> > >

> > > You only have 95% of the game. Poor boy.

> >

> > ...and you have 100%.. yet we both paid the same.. if they gave me a discount. .. or sold raid separately.. I'd also be content.

>

> Yes but ppl who raid amor ask for raids are more likely to hae fun with only that 5%. Having the whole game available doesnt mean kitten if its not fun.

 

Well then, they should be happy to self support their own content.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Honestly the more this discussion continues , the more it seems apparent that there should be a non-raid set of PVE Legendary armor.

>

> That's your take away ?

>

> My take away is that we have a select bunch of people who are living the in the entitlement era.

 

Agreed.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Honestly the more this discussion continues , the more it seems apparent that there should be a non-raid set of PVE Legendary armor.

>

> That's your take away ?

>

> My take away is that we have a select bunch of people who are living the in the entitlement era.

 

Nah, I just like to grind your gears... it gives me joy.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Honestly the more this discussion continues , the more it seems apparent that there should be a non-raid set of PVE Legendary armor.

>

> That's your take away ?

>

> My take away is that we have a select bunch of people who are living the in the entitlement era.

 

This comes from people that seek self worth from a game..

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

> > I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

> >

> > While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

>

> I never said anything about enjoying it.. I said it was designed to stonewall me. There is a massive difference between those two.

>

> I may not like doing Map Hearts, but they are designed to be very accessible to me.

>

> I may love the idea of large instance based content where myself and 9 other friends do it.. but Raids are designed to be very inaccessible to me.

>

> Comprehend the Difference.. this has nothing to do with "Enjoy" or "Like" and everything to do with bad design.

 

Which is still your opinion. The point isnt about the distinction between you thinking its bad design and you not liking the design.

 

I dont doubt that on personal level that's a huge difference to you btw.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > The difference between you and I.. is that I want people to enjoy the content with me.. You want to have content that others can't do.

> > > I haven't really stated much of an opinion. But shoehorn me in one because you need a wall of text to explain a false argument.

> > >

> > > While you seem to suggest that because content isn't for everyone your "funding" goes into content you don't enjoy then I dunno what to tell you. There will always be part of that funding going into content ideas you don't enjoy.

> >

> > I never said anything about enjoying it.. I said it was designed to stonewall me. There is a massive difference between those two.

> >

> > I may not like doing Map Hearts, but they are designed to be very accessible to me.

> >

> > I may love the idea of large instance based content where myself and 9 other friends do it.. but Raids are designed to be very inaccessible to me.

> >

> > Comprehend the Difference.. this has nothing to do with "Enjoy" or "Like" and everything to do with bad design.

>

> Which is still your opinion. The point isnt about the distinction between you thinking its bad design and you not liking the design.

>

> I dont doubt that on personal level that's a huge difference to you btw.

 

Lets define bad Design.

 

When a decade ago WoW, already did the multi-year long trial and error mistakes of discovering that making one difficulty level to Raids was in fact not good design, and that players on a massive scale, in the millions, enjoyed raids far more if they had difficulty tiers, knowing this, and after hiring a team to do nothing but make raids, your company, opts to make raids with a single difficulty setting.

 

At this point in game development, that is about as bad as you can get.. with **bad design**

 

and that is not just a matter of my opinion. Not learning from the mistakes of others.. is just a bad way to do anything.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Its clear that for whatever reason instances take a long time to develop, i.e 5 man/10 man/bigger. You can see that every single AAA mmorpg out there puts out instanced content at a slow rate, and having difficulty levels has no bearing on this (e.g WOW puts out raids faster now with difficulty levels than it did at its peak without) So the question 'how can you speed up instanced content', can only really be answered by a developer who works on and understands the issues with instanced content, and it must be fundamental as the problem is consistent across all games. There is a possibility that high tuning of instanced content is an additional expensive overhead, but I get some players still like this style of gameplay, so fair enough.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Wow's peak was wotlk and it had 10-25mam normal and heroid mode.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > yup wotlk is exactly when they introduced difficulty levels and the raiding scene exploded. Prior to that you had the last raid from tbc, sunwell plateau, which funnily enough has the exact same issues as you see in GW2 (and was one of the triggers for the tiered difficulties) I can remember raiding sunwell, and while it was fun that we were part of an 'exclusive' group that accessed the final boss, the vast majority of players did not, and that was a waste of resources that blizzard corrected going forward. At the same time the same type of players complained about it, same complaints as you see now, disingenuous then as it is now, people only thinking about themselves and the 'prestige' they got from the kills, not the game as a whole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So you are saying that because a raid in a gear driven game that required BiS equipment for the most part as you could farm the previous raid for over 6 months had the same issues as a raid in a game where BiS equipment is easy to get and never changed for Power classes in the last 4 years?

> > > > > > > > Raids in WoW are also a major part in the story, not so much in GW2. Raids are way less frequent and not a major content source as in WoW.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This just validates the objections many had that they have no real good reason to exist in a game like GW2. But if Anet is going to put them in.. they may as well do it right.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is a very good reason they should exist in GW2. Challenging group content. Something the game was lacking.

> > > > > > Raids do not need gear progression to exist.

> > > > >

> > > > > a Laughable reason. GW2 had Fractals for the PvE players, and sPvP and WvW for anyone looking for a real challenge, as PvP style play has proven constantly to be the most challenging kind of play among all MMO's and MOBA's the world over. It is the only kind of play that is considered requiring real skill and ability, hence being an e-sport. Raids are just a gear grind once the scripted moves are memorized.

> > > > >

> > > > > And yes they do.. hence why Legendary Armor is locked behind them. It's already been validated on this forum by the pro-raid crowed that if Legendary Armor was removed from raids, that would somehow magically kill raids as well.. So.. No.. You're wrong here, and your fellow raiders have admitted it. All raids are a gear grind, and sadly.. GW2, was not going to be exception.

> > > > >

> > > > > So if they are going to move into becoming a WoW Clone.. they should at least do it Right, and learn from WoW's mistakes.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's not an unreasonable request.. to ask Anet to learn from the mistakes of others.

> > > >

> > > > Legendary armor has the exact same stats as ascended. There is no gear grind, do you even know what that word means? Or is PvP and WvW also gear grind as you can earn legendary armor there too?

> > >

> > >

> > > I love how Elitist or hardcore Players, tell casuals to go play PvP, for their gear, when they could not play PvP for challenge.

> > >

> > > #DoubleStandars.

> >

> > I never said that. I asked if PvP or WvW are also gear grind. The PvP armor is far away from challening, you don't need to win a single game to get it.

> >

> > And now explain how legendary armor is gear grind and GW2 is moving towards WoW.

>

> Simple, Legendary is the Top Tier of Armor, and has exclusive QoL features attached to it, making it the BiS gear in the game. Ergo: **Gear Grind**

>

> Pretty self evident.

 

No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for *statistical better* equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends. Legendary armor gives no combat advantage and ascended was introduced over 4 years ago.

[nia.4725]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > >Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > > >

> > > > Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to *pursue* those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a *value* of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or *should.* That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

> > > >

> > > > >No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

> > > >

> > > > I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

> > > >

> > > > >You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > > >

> > > > I *could,* but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which *would* make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

> > > >

> > > > >I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > > >

> > > > As John Oliver would say, "cool."

> > > >

> > > > >If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

> > > >

> > > > Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel *pleased* with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

> > > >

> > > > I have fun *beating* encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel *really* good at it. But I want to *beat* it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making *significant* improvement on *each* attempt.

> > > >

> > > > We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

> > >

> > > So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

> > >

> > > Then why do you want to raid?

> >

> > Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

>

> Isn’t that why anyone raids?

No. I raid because I like it and because I like to raid with my friends. Shinies are cool because I make an effort to play good, so it gets rewarded accordingly. But they are not the reason. I clear everything on mondays but my static raids tuesday/wed/thursday so these days I only get bags of greens. The majority of raidebrs raid for fun. I am not even interested in the legen armor.

 

I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for statistical better equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends.

 

That can be a part of it, and often is, but is not necessary to the definition. if the players are motivated to unlock stats, then stats are the motivation for gear grind. If players are motivated to unlock skins, then skins are the motivation for gear grind. GW2 has cultivated a motivation to unlock skins, therefore, the gear grind in GW2 raids is about skins, not stats, but exists nontheless.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> No. I raid because I like it and because I like to raid with my friends. Shinies are cool because I make an effort to play good, so it gets rewarded accordingly. But they are not the reason.

 

Ok! Progress! So since you don't raid for the skins, and other people want those skins, there would clearly be no harm in allowing those players to earn those skins via other methods. That's one big stumbling block taken off the board, which makes this process a lot easier.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > > >Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > > > >

> > > > > Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to *pursue* those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a *value* of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or *should.* That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

> > > > >

> > > > > >No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

> > > > >

> > > > > I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

> > > > >

> > > > > >You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > > > >

> > > > > I *could,* but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which *would* make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

> > > > >

> > > > > >I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > > > >

> > > > > As John Oliver would say, "cool."

> > > > >

> > > > > >If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

> > > > >

> > > > > Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel *pleased* with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have fun *beating* encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel *really* good at it. But I want to *beat* it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making *significant* improvement on *each* attempt.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

> > > >

> > > > So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

> > > >

> > > > Then why do you want to raid?

> > >

> > > Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

> >

> > Isn’t that why anyone raids?

> No. I raid because I like it and because I like to raid with my friends. Shinies are cool because I make an effort to play good, so it gets rewarded accordingly. But they are not the reason. I clear everything on mondays but my static raids tuesday/wed/thursday so these days I only get bags of greens. The majority of raidebrs raid for fun. I am not even interested in the legen armor.

>

> I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

>

 

How about I pay Anet a bunch of money and they give them to me.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

>I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

 

Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

 

Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

 

You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

 

Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

 

You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > >Do you think raiders have been born with the skill required to raid?

> > > >

> > > > Unlikely, but I think they were probably born with the interest to *pursue* those skills, or at least at some point they acquired it. I think that raiders see a *value* of some sort in spending hours upon hours in "training runs," accomplishing nothing more than honing their understanding of the encounter and their skills. It's fine if they feel this way, so long as they understand that not everyone does, or *should.* That it in no way makes them better than their fellow gamers for enjoying this sort of thing, or their fellow gamers any worse for not wanting to do any of that.

> > > >

> > > > >No, we were casual mortals with no idea of what a rotation is. And yet we did it! So why can't everyone else?

> > > >

> > > > I think that most could, they just don't want to. And they shouldn't have to.

> > > >

> > > > >You don't need an easy mode, just do a friggin effort.

> > > >

> > > > I *could,* but that wouldn't make me happy, so instead I pursue an easy mode, which *would* make me happy. Why would I pursue something that wouldn't make me happy?

> > > >

> > > > >I started raiding a year ago and you know that? I was a terrible player, I died 3958903579 times trying to play tempest, my dps was absolute crap and I struggled trying to do my rotation. But, wow, I actually tried, and kept trying, and even though I can't play everything and I'm fairly bad at some classes, I full clear and I am able to play a lot of roles and professions. Ifull clear every week.

> > > >

> > > > As John Oliver would say, "cool."

> > > >

> > > > >If I didn't need an easy mode, why do you?

> > > >

> > > > Different wiring, I imagine. You can die 3958903579 trying to complete a boss, eventually beat it, and eventually feel *pleased* with the sum of the time you spent in that effort. I know that I'm not wired like that, if I spent even a fraction as long at the task, then even if the eventual result was that I had the raid on farm and could just roll in and solo the joint, that wouldn't make me happy. I would feel hollow, I would feel that my efforts in getting to that point was a waste of my time and effort. I cannot feel good about struggling to improve in a game.

> > > >

> > > > I have fun *beating* encounters, and then beating them again, and again, even better each time, until I feel *really* good at it. But I want to *beat* it that first time, or at least the second. I have no interest in losing encounters more than a couple of times, and making *significant* improvement on *each* attempt.

> > > >

> > > > We are different people, and that doesn't become a problem until you start assuming that we are the same, and that what works for you should work equally well for me.

> > >

> > > So you're telling me that you're not interested in the effort required to do raids.

> > >

> > > Then why do you want to raid?

> >

> > Shinies. Pretty obvious by now.

>

> Isn’t that why anyone raids?

 

I stand corrected. Not just shinies. *Effortless* shinies.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for statistical better equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends.

>

> That can be a part of it, and often is, but is not necessary to the definition. if the players are motivated to unlock stats, then stats are the motivation for gear grind. If players are motivated to unlock skins, then skins are the motivation for gear grind. GW2 has cultivated a motivation to unlock skins, therefore, the gear grind in GW2 raids is about skins, not stats, but exists nontheless.

 

No you can't redefine things just to fit your arguments. Gear grind is about stats, not skins and does not exist in GW2.

 

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

>

> Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

>

> Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

>

> You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

>

> Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

>

> You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

 

You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up. You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing. But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them. That is absolutely unfair. A person who actually tries to play can't get the same as someone lazy who just wants to autoattack.

 

I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

 

I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

 

I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

 

And 2490248204920 more examples.

 

This is the same.

 

As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever. But it's funny how at first you said you wanted to experience raid content, just not as difficult as it is right now (and right now it isn't that difficult, but ok). Then you all showed your true colors.

 

You just want the shinies. But you don't want to do more than pressing 1 and dodging red circles.

 

Yet you expect to get a legendary armor. When legen armor is meant for those players who play regularly a game mode, and make an effort to get that legen armor.

 

You're incredible, really.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> >I could understand an easy mode with little rewards. But to want an easy mode with full access to the rewards people who actually try get is laughable. You want to get the shiny cool thing just by doing nothing. Doing nothing should reward little to nothing. You want cool things? Earn them.

>

> Nobody's asking for anything for doing nothing. Every proposal involving easy mode involves doing as much work as hard mode, just in an easier mode. It would be earning things, just at a lighter pace.

>

> Man hires you to do a job, "I want you to carry 1000 bricks from here to there, and I'll pay you $100 to do it."

>

> You decide that it would be best to do a little working out, until you can carry 50 bricks in a load. You go up, pick up 50 bricks, carry them, repeat this process 20 times, and the job's done, here's your $100.

>

> Another guy gets hired to do the same job. He figures he can already carry 10 bricks at a time, and doubts he's willing or able to build himself up to the point that he can carry 50. So he just carries 10 at a time. He does get stronger as he does this, by the last load he might even be strong enough to carry 50 at a time, but 10 is much more comfortable for him and he's fine with that. So 100 loads later, he's managed to carry over the same 1000 bricks as the other guy, he gets his $100 too.

>

> You come over and start whining about how the second guy "didn't do any work at all" because he was only carrying 1/5th the load as he was. Boss just shrugs, the stack of 1000 bricks got where it was going, the work got done, the man earned his salary.

 

To complete your picture the guy with 10 bricks per load also has smaller bricks that only weight around half. So he gets the same for less.

 

Otherwise it would be the current raids with less rewards.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > >No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for statistical better equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends.

> >

> > That can be a part of it, and often is, but is not necessary to the definition. if the players are motivated to unlock stats, then stats are the motivation for gear grind. If players are motivated to unlock skins, then skins are the motivation for gear grind. GW2 has cultivated a motivation to unlock skins, therefore, the gear grind in GW2 raids is about skins, not stats, but exists nontheless.

>

> No you can't redefine things just to fit your arguments. Gear grind is about stats, not skins and does not exist in GW2.

 

Gear grind is grinding for gear. The motivations for doing so are irrelevant to the definition.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> You are the one who literally said that you expect to be able to play the guitar as soon as you pick it up.

 

Yeah, but that's participating in the activity, not receiving the reward. I don't expect to get the Envoy armor on day one, I expect it to take many months of consistent effort. What I expect from an easy mode on day one is that I can join a random pug and clear any encounter within a few attempts, roughly equivalent to dungeons or LW story missions.

 

>You have literally said that you expect to be able to clear the raid as soon as you get to it just by dodging red circles. That is doing nothing.

 

No, it's dodging red circles, applying DPS, basically doing all the things that 99% of the game requires you to do.

 

"Doing nothing" would be **doing nothing,** like just standing there, maybe turning on auto attack. I do *not* think that *this* strategy should be successful.

 

> But still you expect to get the same shinies as me, just by dodging red circles, when I dodge those, go to green ones, give my squad the buffs they need, heal them when they need it, keep red orbs away from them.

 

Yup, because both of us are playing how we prefer to play. If you don't enjoy doing those sorts of things, then you shouldn't have to. If you do enjoy doing those sorts of things, then why are you complaining about what I get?

 

>I really really like tribulation mode skins. However, those skins are meant to people who try and succeed in tribulation mode. I'm literally crap at SAB and I don't even like it, so I won't ever get those skins. And it's completely fair. Because those skins are for those who persevere enough to get them. They earn it, if I get those skins in baby mode I'm not earning anything. Trib mode is how it is and I accept the fact that, if I want those skins, I have to do an effort to get them. It would be unfair for me to go crying to anet asking them to cheese trib mode so that lazy SAB players like me get the shiny those people who are persevering get.

 

Again, it's fine that you believe that, but that doesn't mean that someone who believes otherwise is wrong. Personally, it's never bothered me that Tribulation mode has its own skins, because I've never wanted a yellow or green SAB skin, but if I had, I would certainly want them to provide alternate paths, because not everyone enjoys Tribulation mode.

 

>I really like the luminiscent carapace armor but I don't like open world PvE and I don't like the things required to get it, so I don't get it. And I accept the fact that if I want it I have to do what is required to get it even if I don't like it. I don't go crying to anet asking to change the way those skins are get.

 

You could though, and I would support your effort if you did, even though I already have that armor myself. It's really apples and oranges though, since the time and effort needed to get that armor is a drop in the bucket when compared to what ti takes to unlock Envoy armor. I'm sure if you even attempted to unlock Carapace armor you could manage it in less than a fortnight, and the same is not true the other way around.

 

>I really like the ascended WvW armor but I'm rank 163 and I don't like WvW enough to reach rank 2k. It's a very high rank meant to those who actually play the game mode regularly, not for WvW casuals like me. I accept the fact that if I want that armor I have to play WvW and earn it, just as everyone else.

 

Look, I get your point, when you see a wall in front of you, you quit, rather than confronting it.

 

That's fine.

 

You do you.

 

But that is not how I respond to adversity. If I find a wall in front of me, I fight, I try to tear it down, so that I, and those behind me, can move past it. I view the current state of raids as a problem for a lot of players, and I seek to change them. You don't have to join in that effort, but you certainly won't discourage me from fighting until the job is done.

 

>As I said I could understand an easy mode with little rewards meant for lazy people, people who don't have the time to learn real raids, whatever. But it's funny how at first you said you wanted to experience raid content, just not as difficult as it is right now (and right now it isn't that difficult, but ok). Then you all showed your true colors.

 

Oh, no, this is not a "gotcha" moment. I've been 100% open about my true colors the entire time. At every step in the process I've been quite clear as to what I want. I definitely want the Envoy armor, I've never played coy about that. I *also* definitely want to play the raid encounters in an easy mode, one in which there wouldn't be the hassles of "team comps" and "training raids" and other such nonsense, and you could just pop into LFG, find a party within minutes, complete it in an attempt or two, and be on your way. I definitely want both those things, and have been entirely open about that this entire time. I can't understand how you missed that.

 

>Yet you expect to get a legendary armor. When legen armor is meant for those players who play regularly a game mode, and make an effort to get that legen armor.

 

Legendary armor is currently gifted to people who enjoy raiding, for no other reason than because ANet decided to gift it to those who enjoy raiding. Those players are not *entitled* to having Legendary armor, much less to having exclusive rights to it. If ANet decides that others should also have access, then so it shall be, and my position is that they should so decide.

 

>You're incredible, really.

 

Thank you, but really, I'm nothing special, no more than any raider is.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>To complete your picture the guy with 10 bricks per load also has smaller bricks that only weight around half. So he gets the same for less.

 

Nope.

 

>Otherwise it would be the current raids with less rewards.

 

Again, it's an analogy. The second man is carrying 10 bricks at a time instead of 50, which makes his workload each time much less cumbersome. In the end though, he still accomplishes the same amount of work, he carries the 1000 bricks to the destination. Similarly, a player might need to complete easy mode raids more often than the hard mode ones to reach the Envoy armor, but he *should* be able to reach the Envoy armor eventually by substituting reps for weight.