Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > No, he doesn't. Start your own group, or join a training run/guild, like we all did. The game offers the same means to do it that it did to us. It's your own choice to participate or not.

> Well that's how you and a few others look things but you can't enforce this 'view' to others. The discussion here is exactly for that situation where people are filtered from game content because of the "raid community's" restrictions and requirements - does this 'filtering' serves personal interests in some cases? (rhetorical).

>

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > I fail to see how one can not play raids. If youre new, you can play with other, new players, just make an lfg that says "everyone welcome!" and play. How does that exclude you? Is the issue is about you - a new raider- wanting to join a random group that has people who set certain requirements? It is their right to not want to play with you, if you do not meet said requirements. As it is YOUR right to state in your lfg "NO dps meters, no elitist, casual run". I agree that raids have their problems, but making them world-boss like is a poor solution.

> Of course it is your right to choose your party composition and set the requirements but it's also the right of a GW2 customer to express his disappointment when he is treated with hostility only because he wanted to try some game content. I am not saying raids should become 'world bosses' but on the other hand you can't have half LFG being sellers and the other half severely restricting groups. Something is not right here.

>

> We have content of scaled difficulty (e.g. fractals) where you can gradually work your equipment, skill and knowledge of mechanics to get to the top tier level at some point. What the OP says and I agree with him is a similar solution so that the content becomes available to more people even to the casual ones. It's not healthy for the game's community to have "content barriers" and to discourage people. And if this is something the community itself can't regulate then it's time for the developers team to offer a solution.

 

I do not raid. But I also will not buy the fractal argument. I wont buy it because if one were to actually compare fractal tiers, it would have to be reg 99vs 99cm, and reg 100 vs 100cm. No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm. The same will happen to raids. If you have been following the 50+ Pages of this and other, similar topics, you would see that the supoorters of easy mode raids want to get raid loot, at a slower pace. They dont care about moving on to "normal" raiding.

[Dreddo.9865]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's not a matter of views though. It's an objective fact - the game offers exactly the same opportunities to everyone. The UI is the same, the buttons are equally clickable, the text boxes in the LFG accept your keystrokes just as they accept mine. All of these are *facts*, hard and cold. Much as I understand someone's desire to blame the results of his own choices onto the game, I can't accept it.

Yes the LFG UI is the 'same for everyone' but the utility and usefulness of it at its current state ain't the 'same for everyone'. That's a fact too.

 

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> I do not raid. But I also will not buy the fractal argument. I wont buy it because if one were to actually compare fractal tiers, it would have to be reg 99vs 99cm, and reg 100 vs 100cm. No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm. The same will happen to raids. If you have been following the 50+ Pages of this and other, similar topics, you would see that the supoorters of easy mode raids want to get raid loot, at a slower pace. They dont care about moving on to "normal" raiding.

You do not raid but you are here advocating for them. Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about. As I wrote I don't ask for 'easy loot mode'. I fully support what the OP wrote for scaled difficulty content tied to the rewards. Can't put it more simple.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It's not a matter of views though. It's an objective fact - the game offers exactly the same opportunities to everyone. The UI is the same, the buttons are equally clickable, the text boxes in the LFG accept your keystrokes just as they accept mine. All of these are *facts*, hard and cold. Much as I understand someone's desire to blame the results of his own choices onto the game, I can't accept it.

> Yes the LFG UI is the 'same for everyone' but the utility and usefulness of it at its current state ain't the 'same for everyone'. That's a fact too.

>

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > I do not raid. But I also will not buy the fractal argument. I wont buy it because if one were to actually compare fractal tiers, it would have to be reg 99vs 99cm, and reg 100 vs 100cm. No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm. The same will happen to raids. If you have been following the 50+ Pages of this and other, similar topics, you would see that the supoorters of easy mode raids want to get raid loot, at a slower pace. They dont care about moving on to "normal" raiding.

> You do not raid but you are here advocating for them. Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about. As I wrote I don't ask for 'easy loot mode'. I fully support what the OP wrote for scaled difficulty content tied to the rewards. Can't put it more simple.

 

I cant have my own opinion, it seems. You offer no counterargument, yet you attack me, as a commenter. Ad hominem right there.

Good day, your attitude pretty much sums a lot of things up.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

>Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about.

 

He is 100% right about that. 99 is very different from 99cm and the only thing you learn for cm from the normal one is that the bosses look the same, have their usual mechanics in addition to some more crucial ones and the map design.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It's not a matter of views though. It's an objective fact - the game offers exactly the same opportunities to everyone. The UI is the same, the buttons are equally clickable, the text boxes in the LFG accept your keystrokes just as they accept mine. All of these are *facts*, hard and cold. Much as I understand someone's desire to blame the results of his own choices onto the game, I can't accept it.

> Yes the LFG UI is the 'same for everyone' but the utility and usefulness of it at its current state ain't the 'same for everyone'. That's a fact too.

 

How so?

[nia.4725]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> >Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about.

>

> He is 100% right about that. 99 is very different from 99cm and the only thing you learn for cm from the normal one is that the bosses look the same, have their usual mechanics in addition to some more crucial ones and the map design.

>

 

Can confirm with my own experience. When I went to 99cm for the first time I didn't know about its specific mechanics, I had just done 99. I failed miserably -the Siax new mechanic took me by surprise. I wasn't prepared to do 99cm, at all.

[Imperadordf.2687]

This thread has been on for so long unnecessarily that I can't even remember what I've voted for.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> This thread has been on for so long unnecessarily that I can't even remember what I've voted for.

 

You seem to have voted for "hard but not normal" my good sir

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> >Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about.

>

> He is 100% right about that. 99 is very different from 99cm and the only thing you learn for cm from the normal one is that the bosses look the same, have their usual mechanics in addition to some more crucial ones and the map design.

>

 

Not entirely. While new mechanics and dps checks and other things obviously need to be learned in the moment, within 1 to 99 fractals of the same kind you already learn alot of basic requirements. Environment, the easy mechanics that would need to be routine or not. Basic movements. I would stress though, this practicing starts as soon as you start doing fractals. So youd need to take the whole process of 1 to 99 as the training mode.

 

I could go more indepth, but the fact of the matter is, you can prepare and you can practice the easier modes of the challenge mode. With the caveat, it obviously doesnt prepare you for everything, but you can do a first few steps.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>It's not a matter of views though. It's an objective fact - the game offers exactly the same opportunities to everyone. The UI is the same, the buttons are equally clickable, the text boxes in the LFG accept your keystrokes just as they accept mine. All of these are facts, hard and cold. Much as I understand someone's desire to blame the results of his own choices onto the game, I can't accept it.

 

That doesn't mean it's offering everyone the same opportunities. Different players have different amounts of free time, different skill levels, all sorts of different factors that can make a certain game expectation more convenient to some than to others.

 

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Maybe instead of awarding Magnetite Shards and Legendary Insights, the easy mode would award Magnetite Splinters and Legendary Fragments, which would have their own caps, and could be converted into Shards and Insights. just as a starting point, perhaps each easy boss could award ten Magnetite Splinters and one Legendary Fragment per kill, each of which could be combined 3:1 for the higher tier, each capped at the same weekly amount as they currently offer.

 

Yes, that's something we've been discussing for a while, and should work out for all involved.

 

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> I could go more indepth, but the fact of the matter is, you can prepare and you can practice the easier modes of the challenge mode. With the caveat, it obviously doesnt prepare you for everything, but you can do a first few steps.

 

Yup, the usefulness of an easy mode as a practice tool depends entirely on how it is structured. If it's designed to use completely different rules for success, then it won't be worth much for practice. If, on the other hand, the rules to succeed stay as close to the original as possible, and only the penalties for failure are changed, then anyone who want to use it to train can gain significant training from it.

 

Think of it like a hurdles course. Let's say you don't want to start from scratch running full hurdles, you want something a bit easier.

 

If you have it so that the hurdles are all half the height of the regulation ones, then it might help you with timing a pacing a bit, but you might not learn to jump as high as you'll need to, and your timing might be a bit later than you'd actually need.

 

If you have it so that the hurdles are farther apart than regulation, then you have more time to build speed between them, but the timing would be way off.

 

Another way to go though, is to have hurdles of regulation size and position, but with tissue-paper crossbeams, so that even if you trip right through them, they aren't going to harm you. In this case, you'd still need to get the timing and height perfectly if you wanted to clear each one, but if you stumbled through a few, you'd still be fine. This would make for a good training opportunity, but it only works as well as you *care* about it working.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> > >Then you speak about fractals and raise arguments like " No matter how many times you do reg 99,it wont prepare you for 99cm" that make me wonder whether you really know what you are talking about.

> >

> > He is 100% right about that. 99 is very different from 99cm and the only thing you learn for cm from the normal one is that the bosses look the same, have their usual mechanics in addition to some more crucial ones and the map design.

> >

>

> Not entirely. While new mechanics and dps checks and other things obviously need to be learned in the moment, within 1 to 99 fractals of the same kind you already learn alot of basic requirements. Environment, the easy mechanics that would need to be routine or not. Basic movements. I would stress though, this practicing starts as soon as you start doing fractals. So youd need to take the whole process of 1 to 99 as the training mode.

>

> I could go more indepth, but the fact of the matter is, you can prepare and you can practice the easier modes of the challenge mode. With the caveat, it obviously doesnt prepare you for everything, but you can do a first few steps.

 

The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics. The *same* basics you can learn in the t1-t2-t3-t4 fractal progression. If you've walked that path, there's nothing an easy mode can teach you. If you haven't, you don't need an easy mode raid to teach you these - you can learn them in fractals. Or if you prefer, you could regard the fractals as the easy mode raid. Several shades of easy, even.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> He is 100% right about that. 99 is very different from 99cm and the only thing you learn for cm from the normal one is that the bosses look the same, have their usual mechanics in addition to some more crucial ones and the map design.

It's true. CMs are outside normal fractal progression and don't have their "easymode" versions in lower tiers. If they had, those lower tier versions however _would_ be preparing you for the real deal.

That is actually a failure of the original fractal design. The CMs are simply not part of it at all.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics.

 

This depends on how it's created. If it alters the entire fight with increased damage, hit points and speed then yes it will only teach you the absolute basics. However, if most of the fight stays the same and only a few parts change then it teaches you everything else except for those parts.

 

Matthias has an achievement to not use food and Bandit Trio has an achievement to not use the environment abilities, not only you can practice both at any time you wish, and if you see it's too hard, use the mechanics to succeed, but the rest of the fight is identical. In both cases the normal mode of these bosses teaches you the challenge version very well. Sabetha has the last cannon achievement, which requires you to keep one cannon active for the duration of the fight while everything else is the same. Once again, aside from the south part of the platform being under constant bombardment, the fight doesn't really change much from the regular version.

Slothasor gets more complex, because two players need to alternate carrying the golden slubling but it's something you can practice already in normal mode, see who can still contribute to the team the most, while not using any weapon skills. Plenty of choice.

 

Samarog and Deimos fights change the encounter a lot so those aren't as good for training. I'd argue that Mursaat Overseer in CM is a completely different animal as well (still easy but much different than the normal version) Most Fractal CMs are not very good in that regard either, because they change the speed of projectiles, the damage and the hit points, in **addition** to adding new mechanics. In essence it all depends on the implementation, there are plenty of "challenge" versions that can be taught well in normal mode.

[Astralporing.1957]

Cairn CM is also something that can be learned in normal mode (moreover, learning it makes the normal fight much easier, so it's a worthy goal in itself even if you aren't interested in CM).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics.

>

> This depends on how it's created. If it alters the entire fight with increased damage, hit points and speed then yes it will only teach you the absolute basics. However, if most of the fight stays the same and only a few parts change then it teaches you everything else except for those parts.

>

> Matthias has an achievement to not use food and Bandit Trio has an achievement to not use the environment abilities, not only you can practice both at any time you wish, and if you see it's too hard, use the mechanics to succeed, but the rest of the fight is identical. In both cases the normal mode of these bosses teaches you the challenge version very well. Sabetha has the last cannon achievement, which requires you to keep one cannon active for the duration of the fight while everything else is the same. Once again, aside from the south part of Sabetha being under constant bombardment, the fight doesn't really change much from the regular version.

> Slothasor gets more complex, because two players need to alternate carrying the golden slubling but it's something you can practice already in normal mode, see who can still contribute to the team the most, while not using any weapon skills. Plenty of choice.

>

> Samarog and Deimos fights change the encounter a lot so those aren't as good for training. I'd argue that Mursaat Overseer in CM is a completely different animal as well (still easy but much different than the normal version) Most Fractal CMs are not very good in that regard either because they change the speed of projectiles, the damage and the hit points, in **addition** to adding new mechanics. In essence it all depends on the implementation, there are plenty of "challenge" versions that can be taught well in normal mode.

 

Let me say it in this way:

In order for any "easy mode" practice to be worth a penny, the "easy" mode has to be too close to the actual difficulty to be called "easy". Your Matthias and Trio achievement examples fall in this category. It's not really a matter of the fight specifics, it's about where the challenge comes from. If you remove the elements that create said challenge, you can't expect the experience gained in this mode to be still valid when these elements suddenly appear and wreck all your strategies. See the fights where the CM actually add noticeable difficulty - Samarog, Deimos, Dhuum.

 

I'm *very* certain players making a case for an easy mode will *not* be content with the level of "easy" that would allow meaningful training.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> I'm *very* certain players making a case for an easy mode will *not* be content with the level of "easy" that would allow meaningful training.

 

It depends who you ask I guess, there are those that are asking for an easy mode to be as easy as a world boss (and an easy world boss at that) and others that want it to be valid for training. The two of them are mutually exclusive for obvious reasons. Which means those that voted for an easy mode don't have a unified stance on that easy mode, which is of course true for those that voted for a hard mode (or for both).

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> If you remove the elements that create said challenge, you can't expect the experience gained in this mode to be still valid when these elements suddenly appear and wreck all your strategies.

 

the point is, if you're attempting to train, you have to train *as if the "strategy wrecking" mechanics would be in play.* You cannot just play the encounter in the most efficient way available, you would need to behave as if the mechanics existed, and try to overcome them. All the easy mode needs to do is provide the framing devices for the encounter, and feedback as to whether you cleared it or not. As in my hurdles example above, if a person just runs straight through the tissue paper hurdles without even attempting to jump them, then of course he would learn nothing, nor should he expect to. But if he does attempt to jump each one, and on his first try he trips a few, and on the next a few less, and eventually he can do it and most of the time trip none, then if he transitions to using actual hurdles, he would have the exact same experience, because the easy mode prepared him for that, without causing him to fall on his face multiple times to do so.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>It depends who you ask I guess, there are those that are asking for an easy mode to be as easy as a world boss (and an easy world boss at that) and others that want it to be valid for training.

 

Nope. Done right, it can serve both functions equally well (not that I think they should be *as* easy as an easy world boss, but I've made myself clear on that point).

[nia.4725]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > If you remove the elements that create said challenge, you can't expect the experience gained in this mode to be still valid when these elements suddenly appear and wreck all your strategies.

>

> the point is, if you're attempting to train, you have to train *as if the "strategy wrecking" mechanics would be in play.* You cannot just play the encounter in the most efficient way available, you would need to behave as if the mechanics existed, and try to overcome them. All the easy mode needs to do is provide the framing devices for the encounter, and feedback as to whether you cleared it or not. As in my hurdles example above, if a person just runs straight through the tissue paper hurdles without even attempting to jump them, then of course he would learn nothing, nor should he expect to. But if he does attempt to jump each one, and on his first try he trips a few, and on the next a few less, and eventually he can do it and most of the time trip none, then if he transitions to using actual hurdles, he would have the exact same experience, because the easy mode prepared him for that, without causing him to fall on his face multiple times to do so.

>

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >It depends who you ask I guess, there are those that are asking for an easy mode to be as easy as a world boss (and an easy world boss at that) and others that want it to be valid for training.

>

> Nope. Done right, it can serve both functions equally well (not that I think they should be *as* easy as an easy world boss, but I've made myself clear on that point).

 

But how would you, then, make players know how are the actual mechanics when they go easy mode? I mean, if a player is new to raids and has never tried normal mode, then when they go easy mode those mechanics will be the only ones they'll know. Therefore they won't be able to play as if they were facing the normal mode mechanics.

 

Also, don't you think that some people will be lazy and will just play easy mode like? And don't you think that even if some people try to play like it is normal mode, even if it isn't, they will probably get too used to easy mode and eventually forget to play like it is normal mode?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> But how would you, then, make players know how are the actual mechanics when they go easy mode?

 

They should know how they work already. The encounters have been in the game for two years now. There are plenty of text and video guides on how you do it. People know that the green circles do a lot of damage, that if you ignore them in the normal raid they will likely wipe everyone. If you put players into easy mode that have the goal of training for hard, then they will know this all going in, and if they drop a green, they won't die, they will be able to continue, but they will know full well what that would have cost them in hard mode, and will keep trying to improve.

 

>Also, don't you think that some people will be lazy and will just play easy mode like?

 

Sure, and that's fine too. One mode, multiple uses. Just like you can have a four-seater car where one person drives it solo to work, and another person carpools three others for more efficiency, neither is wrong, both are valid ways to do it, do the one that works better for you. Players who do not use it for traiing will not get much better at the normal mode version, but that's ok, so long as they are having fun. Players that are using it to train will have a more complex set of rules to keep in mind, but that's ok, because they are improving toward their goal. Each is a valid path.

 

>And don't you think that even if some people try to play like it is normal mode, even if it isn't, they will probably get too used to easy mode and eventually forget to play like it is normal mode?

 

That's entirely up to their own self-awareness and self-discipline. At least they would have options, which they don't under the current mechanics. Maybe one day they don't want to wait for a "training mode" LFG to be available, or they just want to get through it quickly before work, so they use the minimal rules to get through it fast and efficient, but that's fine, they can go back to training the next time. Or not, whatever, up to them, no wrong answer.

 

 

[Grogba.6204]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics.

>

> This depends on how it's created. If it alters the entire fight with increased damage, hit points and speed then yes it will only teach you the absolute basics. However, if most of the fight stays the same and only a few parts change then it teaches you everything else except for those parts.

>

> Matthias has an achievement to not use food and Bandit Trio has an achievement to not use the environment abilities, not only you can practice both at any time you wish, and if you see it's too hard, use the mechanics to succeed, but the rest of the fight is identical. In both cases the normal mode of these bosses teaches you the challenge version very well. Sabetha has the last cannon achievement, which requires you to keep one cannon active for the duration of the fight while everything else is the same. Once again, aside from the south part of the platform being under constant bombardment, the fight doesn't really change much from the regular version.

 

Funny that you didn't mention KC "CM" in your list because all these encounters have one thing in common:

They are completely the same, nothing changes. The environmental effects at Trio or having no **food** (nourishments are still allowed!) at Matthias does not make the fights any different at all. Why you would want to leave south alive at Sabetha is something I don't understand, too (east is the far more practical choice). Leaving one cannon out also increases the group dps by a huge margin which ultimately leads to a faster clear.

 

edit: What I mean with no difference is that neither Berg, Zane, Narella nor Matthias end up using new skills or behave differently. Squad DPS will be lower thus the time to kill them increases.

[nia.4725]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > The fact of matter is, the easy mode can teach you only the basics.

> >

> > This depends on how it's created. If it alters the entire fight with increased damage, hit points and speed then yes it will only teach you the absolute basics. However, if most of the fight stays the same and only a few parts change then it teaches you everything else except for those parts.

> >

> > Matthias has an achievement to not use food and Bandit Trio has an achievement to not use the environment abilities, not only you can practice both at any time you wish, and if you see it's too hard, use the mechanics to succeed, but the rest of the fight is identical. In both cases the normal mode of these bosses teaches you the challenge version very well. Sabetha has the last cannon achievement, which requires you to keep one cannon active for the duration of the fight while everything else is the same. Once again, aside from the south part of the platform being under constant bombardment, the fight doesn't really change much from the regular version.

>

> Funny that you didn't mention KC "CM" in your list because all these encounters have one thing in common:

> They are completely the same, nothing changes. The environmental effects at Trio or having no **food** (nourishments are still allowed!) at Matthias does not make the fights any different at all. Why you would want to leave south alive at Sabetha is something I don't understand, too (east is the far more practical choice). Leaving one cannon out also increases the group dps by a huge margin which ultimately leads to a faster clear.

>

> edit: What I mean with no difference is that neither Berg, Zane, Narella nor Matthias end up using new skills or behave differently. Squad DPS will be lower thus the time to kill them increases.

 

Yup.

 

But in the end I think we can all agree that no one considers those achievements any sort of CM. They are just achievements, not CMs. Not even anet considers those CMs -they made them so they don't give the same loot a real CM gives.

 

KC is a CM, but its difference from the normal mode is so tiny that it's irrelevant, too.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

Yeah I missed Keep Construct (and Cairn too) as good examples of normal mode being actually good training for the more challenging version, either the mote or an achievement. It's curious how Fractals (the content with multiple difficulties) is worse at teaching the higher tier mechanics of its content than most of the Raid Bosses.

The part about CMs vs achievements is interesting but for the other topic.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > "Skipping dungeons right into raiding" is also an impossibility.

> ...i happen to know a few of those impossibilities. At least one of them skipped fractals as well.

>

> Seriously, people do things for multitide of reasons, which quite often are not very logical.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I beg to differ. The game designers have much better understanding of what makes a game fun than players.

> Past experiences (and not only of GW2, but of the game market in general) shows otherwise. Somethimes the devs do not know that even if they happen to play the game they develop. Devs assuming that other players liking the same things they personally do is a common occurence. Marketing overruling devs to introduce elements that are no fun but someone thought they might be _profitable_ is even more common one. And of course most of the devs (to say nothing of marketing) do _not_ in fact play their games.

>

> > @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> > But you can get legendary armor in other game modes.. Only PVE is locked behind raiding. You can for instance get Legendary Armor from doing PvP or WvW

> It just feels wrong when you start to think that the most reasonable way to get your legendary armor for the PvE content you play is by playing PvP or WvW.

>

 

I honestly understand that feeling, on the other hand if you're already having to change your build because you play WvW and PVE it makes better sense to just go for the WvW armor vs PVE.... I understand the majority of PVE players do it for the skins not for the ability to change builds on the fly and while I get that it does sort of annoy me... Considering that PVE builds are either Condi or Power depending on which is strong on whatever class there is.... They don't really change much, I read every patch note and check the current up to date builds for PVE after each patch, and the only thing that ever changes is whether or not Power or Condi is strong. WvW on the other hand changes far more often and there are different builds that work better than others (plus you can actually experiment based on the style of play you enjoy vs PVE where doing so is a flame fest). I can understand the PVE point but I do sort of wonder why Legendary really matters in PVE... Now that you can change Ascended to whatever you need currently. Those who play other game-modes need the changes on the fly more often.

 

[Turkeyspit.3965]

I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

 

BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

[Grogba.6204]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> I'm a relatively new player, and don't have much interest in raiding (been there, done that in other titles).

>

> BUT, I would like to point out that Dungeons have a "story" mode that is noticeably easier along with "exploration" mode that offers more challenge and additional loot rewards. Not sure if that was already suggested in the 50+ pages, but as the model already exists in game, why couldn't Raids have a "story" mode enabled?

 

Because dungeons were designed with these story paths in mind, these paths are completely different from the explorable paths and thus do not apply for raids.