Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> if rewards/time ratio is better on easy mode

due to weekly lockout it literally _can't_ be that unless we we'll be flast out giving better rewards for easy, which noone asks for.

 

So, even if you're doing the easy mode in quarter time for half the reward (making the reward/hour ratio theoretically better), you are still getting only half the reward per week unless you do normal also. Making your overall rewards worse. Thus, if you could do the normal mode of the encounter, there'd be no reason not to. Only if you'd know you would be wiping over and over again on normal would you consider easy instead.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > if rewards/time ratio is better on easy mode

> due to weekly lockout it literally _can't_ be that unless we we'll be flast out giving better rewards for easy, which noone asks for.

>

> So, even if you're doing the easy mode in quarter time for half the reward (making the reward/hour ratio theoretically better), you are still getting only half the reward per week unless you do normal also. Making your overall rewards worse. Thus, if you could do the normal mode of the encounter, there'd be no reason not to. Only if you'd know you would be wiping over and over again on normal would you consider easy instead.

>

 

What of groups who don't consistently clear everything? You're oversimplifying quite a bit here.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

 

lol so you don't want easy mode for the majority because of various contrived arguments that have been refuted, but a new hard mode for the existing minority is fine - can you hear yourselves?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > if rewards/time ratio is better on easy mode

> > due to weekly lockout it literally _can't_ be that unless we we'll be flast out giving better rewards for easy, which noone asks for.

> >

> > So, even if you're doing the easy mode in quarter time for half the reward (making the reward/hour ratio theoretically better), you are still getting only half the reward per week unless you do normal also. Making your overall rewards worse. Thus, if you could do the normal mode of the encounter, there'd be no reason not to. Only if you'd know you would be wiping over and over again on normal would you consider easy instead.

> >

>

> What of groups who don't consistently clear everything? You're oversimplifying quite a bit here.

Obviously, doing easy version of the encounter _would_ give better rewards than doing no version of the encounter at all, and yes, people incapable of doing normal would go easy. That's still _not_ a better reward/time ratio.

 

Basically, if you can do both, you should never be tempted to go easy for efficiency. Only if you are really struggling with normal it might benefit you. And by really struggling i mean more than 2-3 wipes on an encounter before succeeding. We're talking about people that would think "we're probably gonna fail this" before they even started.

 

Notice, that people that are struggling with normal so much are not the people most raiders would want to group with anyway, so it's hardly a loss for them.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> I'm saying their is strictly more story about what happend in the first 3 wings from bloodstone fen then we get in the raid themselves. This was my only point as it is the only one that can be measured objectively.

 

But there is still story content that takes place in Wings 1-3, this was my only point.

 

>Well except the introduction of the egg and the exalted ofcourse.

 

But an NPC tells you about that stuff, so apparently it doesn't matter, right?

 

>My whole point was that for the continuity of the commanders story, dungeons are more important then raids. Nothing to do with what people consider most important because thats a ridicilous can of wurms to open.

 

Ok, that can be your opinion, but it doesn't make it fact.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

 

You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

>

> You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

 

Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> >

> > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

>

> Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

 

Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> >

> > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

>

> Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

 

An easy mode would not be created to train people, its to give content to people who are not interested in the rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote wipe gameplay style in current raids (although normal mode will benefit as some players will migrate naturally). Very different style of instance, targeting very different styles of gameplay (reactive versus memorising patterns and playing the rotation game)

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > >

> > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> >

> > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

>

> Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

 

But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

>

> But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

>

I’m just following a pattern that another player had mentioned. Anet already established a pattern with WvW and Pvp, why not reflect that in pve as well.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

>

> But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

>

 

um no we dont, Im sure the vast majority would be perfectly happy with legendary armor with stat swap that looked nothing like envoy, in fact this argument is a bit of a strawman, i would be perfectly happy with envoy armor being the exclusive reward for normal mode raids only.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > >

> > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> >

> > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

>

> An easy mode would not be created to train people, its to give content to people who are not interested in the rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote wipe gameplay style in current raids (although normal mode will benefit as some players will migrate naturally). Very different style of instance, targeting very different styles of gameplay (reactive versus memorising patterns and playing the rotation game)

 

An easymode would not be more or less reactive than normal mode currently.

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > >

> > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > >

> > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > >

> > > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

> >

> > But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

> >

> I’m just following a pattern that another player had mentioned. Anet already established a pattern with WvW and Pvp, why not reflect that in pve as well.

 

A pattern? Reward tracks and tickets are a substitute for lack of a variety of rewarding content, not a standard to apply everywhere just because.

 

Such suggestions really are just about getting the reward not about providing a quality experience. Im not against statswap armor at all, but at least provide a way that is also fun to play. The legendary armor is already grindy enough, to make an even grindier experience in the form of an easymode will be just as much a waste of developer resources as an easy mode with no rewards.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > An easy mode would not be created to train people, its to give content to people who are not interested in the rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote wipe gameplay style in current raids (although normal mode will benefit as some players will migrate naturally). Very different style of instance, targeting very different styles of gameplay (reactive versus memorising patterns and playing the rotation game)

>

> An easymode would not be more or less reactive than normal mode currently.

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > > >

> > > > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

> > >

> > > But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

> > >

> > I’m just following a pattern that another player had mentioned. Anet already established a pattern with WvW and Pvp, why not reflect that in pve as well.

>

> A pattern? Reward tracks and tickets are a substitute for lack of a variety of rewarding content, not a standard to apply everywhere just because.

>

> Such suggestions really are just about getting the reward not about providing a quality experience. Im not against statswap armor at all, but at least provide a way that is also fun to play. The legendary armor is already grindy enough, to make an even grindier experience in the form of an easymode will be just as much a waste of developer resources as an easy mode with no rewards.

 

Oh, sorry, you misunderstood.

 

The pattern I was referring to is that there are essentially two sets of Legendary Armor for Wvw. The stat swap variety and an elite skin variety. Something similar is happening with PVP as well with the Glorious armor set getting an elite set with FX as well. I was suggesting that the same be done with Pve, have the elite skin (Envoy) and the stat swap (Refined).

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

>

> But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

>

 

I freely admit that I'm one of the few holdouts in this discussion that insists on Envoy armor, because I'm far more of a cosmetics player than an efficiency player. If they made an easy mode that was effectively rewarding *without* Envoy skins, I'm sure it would gain a population. I think that many *more* players would be happier if it *did* offer Envoy skins, and I would continue to press for an alternative path (not necessarily involving the raids at all) to unlock the Envoy skins, but they are two distinct issues with divergent audiences.

 

 

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> Such suggestions really are just about getting the reward not about providing a quality experience. Im not against statswap armor at all, but at least provide a way that is also fun to play. The legendary armor is already grindy enough, to make an even grindier experience in the form of an easymode will be just as much a waste of developer resources as an easy mode with no rewards.

 

I still want to see PvE reward tracks. The benefit they have over all other methods is that they are *portable,* that you can continue to advance them wherever you want to be, rather than being "trapped" in a specific zone doing specific content because it's the only path towards what you want.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> >

> > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

>

> Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

 

You won't be able to train in any meaningful way on easy. If you wanted to train, you'd already be playing raids, because that's how people train for raiding. So no - an easy mode would need its own rewards so that it could appeal to its own audience. These rewards must, however, be different. No LIs, no magnetite, no envoy. Tyson's suggestion to give a stat-swappable set using one of the precursor skins would be fine. It's a strong enough incentive which doesn't nullify the value of the perfected set.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > >

> > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > >

> > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> >

> > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

>

> But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

By "most advocates" you mean Ohoni, right? I wouldn't be adverse to a separate skin, as long as it would also be of legendary quality. That doesn't mean that i wouldn't consider a separate path to obtain Envoy armor as a nice extra, of course.

 

tl/dr: i wouldn't be satisfied with "skinless" legendary (the WvW style), but i don't necessarily insist on specifically Envoy skin. Said legendary having its own unique skin of legendary quality would be enough.

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:

> > > > > > My thoughts on raid easy mode. No enrage. No timer, Make it 15 man. No quality rewards such as legendary insights, minis, gold and ascended gear. Now for hard mode just do CM that are repeatable every week.

> > > > >

> > > > > You would need some sort of reward to keep people playing the mode, like stat swapping armor.

> > > >

> > > > Not for easy mode. It's there to train you for a normal encounter. If you are not willing to learn then you don't deserve the rewards.

> > >

> > > Would be a waste of resources, honestly. Now if they had a time gated stat swapping set that didn’t use the Envoy skin you may have something there.

> >

> > But most advocates of easier raid mode dont care about the stat swap. They care about the envoy skin. They have said so time and again.

> By "most advocates" you mean Ohoni, right? I wouldn't be adverse to a separate skin, as long as it would also be of legendary quality. That doesn't mean that i wouldn't consider a separate path to obtain Envoy armor as a nice extra, of course.

>

> tl/dr: i wouldn't be satisfied with "skinless" legendary (the WvW style), but i don't necessarily insist on specifically Envoy skin. Said legendary having its own unique skin of legendary quality would be enough.

 

A reskin of illustrious armor would be fair. I mean, like T2 wvw armor.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > By "most advocates" you mean Ohoni, right? I wouldn't be adverse to a separate skin, as long as it would also be of legendary quality. That doesn't mean that i wouldn't consider a separate path to obtain Envoy armor as a nice extra, of course.

> >

> > tl/dr: i wouldn't be satisfied with "skinless" legendary (the WvW style), but i don't necessarily insist on specifically Envoy skin. Said legendary having its own unique skin of legendary quality would be enough.

>

> A reskin of illustrious armor would be fair. I mean, like T2 wvw armor.

Personally i think that the WvW legendary armor should also get its own, legendary-level skin, not just inherit the precursor one.

 

I understand that raiders want the Envoy armor to be the only legendary set visually worthy of the tier. I happen to strongly disagree with that sentiment however.

 

 

[Martimus.6027]

All these pages of people just assuming authority and inside knowledge of stats and numbers that only the respective businesses (Blizzard and ANet) have access to.

 

WoW has LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic raids. It's all just literally the same exact content, with a couple more mechanics and bigger numbers going back and forth.

 

To me, it just isn't 'content.' It's lazy and just gear checks.

 

BUT! Having said that...I think GW2 does need a way for people who aren't used to raiding in it to ease into it better. Raiding needs to be more accessible to people who actively want to raid. If people can get into it better, there is more of a pool of people who want to do it and more a chance that raids take place. Raids are already a convoluted graphical mess where you can't see what the heck to dodge because of all the crap on the ground.

 

And by that same token, I see people wanting to be elitists: "We don't want more PUGs raiding!" Yea, well, population is a thing. May as well make the statement: "We want less opportunity to go on raids if we lose members and haven't allowed others to come with us because elitism." And go look at Wildstar's raiding scene and how it went down, and ultimately ruined the game.

 

Getting into raids in Wildstar was too hard, too gated behind rep, too gear checky, and too much of a hassle, and that's on top of finding a guild that even wants to raid in the first place with enough active players. Plus, incredibly punishing and non-intuitive boss fights with very little or poor rewards for completion. It ultimately led to the downfall of that game, even though it's still 'active' i suppose. I don't have the exact numbers, but most cities are a ghost town. They havne't added a new race or class to that game since its inception. Just cosmetic crap.

 

 

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > By "most advocates" you mean Ohoni, right? I wouldn't be adverse to a separate skin, as long as it would also be of legendary quality. That doesn't mean that i wouldn't consider a separate path to obtain Envoy armor as a nice extra, of course.

> > >

> > > tl/dr: i wouldn't be satisfied with "skinless" legendary (the WvW style), but i don't necessarily insist on specifically Envoy skin. Said legendary having its own unique skin of legendary quality would be enough.

> >

> > A reskin of illustrious armor would be fair. I mean, like T2 wvw armor.

> Personally i think that the WvW legendary armor should also get its own, legendary-level skin, not just inherit the precursor one.

>

> I understand that raiders want the Envoy armor to be the only legendary set visually worthy of the tier. I happen to strongly disagree with that sentiment however.

>

>

 

It has been already said that no other legendary skins will be made, so i wager that an open world leggy armor with a reskinned model would be more possible. I dont raid, already made one set of wvw leggy armor. This topic iamt really about easy raids, no. It is about people refusing to do regular raids, and instead ask for easier raids to get that envoy armor. Its all about skins.

Personally, I disagree that envoy armor is legendary-ish (maybe except the heavy skin). Light and med skins are horrible. It is in no way visually worthy of being called legendary.

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > By "most advocates" you mean Ohoni, right? I wouldn't be adverse to a separate skin, as long as it would also be of legendary quality. That doesn't mean that i wouldn't consider a separate path to obtain Envoy armor as a nice extra, of course.

> > >

> > > tl/dr: i wouldn't be satisfied with "skinless" legendary (the WvW style), but i don't necessarily insist on specifically Envoy skin. Said legendary having its own unique skin of legendary quality would be enough.

> >

> > A reskin of illustrious armor would be fair. I mean, like T2 wvw armor.

> Personally i think that the WvW legendary armor should also get its own, legendary-level skin, not just inherit the precursor one.

>

> I understand that raiders want the Envoy armor to be the only legendary set visually worthy of the tier. I happen to strongly disagree with that sentiment however.

>

>

 

I don't think the majority of raiders about about other game modes getting their own FX legendary skin. I, personally, don't mind. What I care about is the Envoy staying where it is right now.

 

However I don't think Anet will create entirely new FX sets. Creating the Envoy was a very long road full of problems.

[nia.4725]

> @"Martimus.6027" said:

> And by that same token, I see people wanting to be elitists: "We don't want more PUGs raiding!" Yea, well, population is a thing. May as well make the statement: "We want less opportunity to go on raids if we lose members and haven't allowed others to come with us because elitism." And go look at Wildstar's raiding scene and how it went down, and ultimately ruined the game.

 

o_O who said that? It must be someone from 82936452985 pages ago.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> It has been already said that no other legendary skins will be made.

That's more about transforming skins. There are other ways to make a skin visibly of legendary quality. For example, in PvE Hellfire armor is very close to that, it just lacks some more sfx, aura and on-combat effect. Illustrious however is just a normal armor skin.

 

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> It is about people refusing to do regular raids, and instead ask for easier raids to get that envoy armor. Its all about skins.

Considering that i've already gotten out of raids all the skins i wanted, i can assure you that no, it isn't.

 

> Personally, I disagree that envoy armor is legendary-ish (maybe except the heavy skin). Light and med skins are horrible. It is in no way visually worthy of being called legendary.

Medium being ugly (because, yeah pineapple armor... who designed that?) doesn't make it visually any less of legendary quality. It just makes it an _ugly_ legendary.