Is there a reason for the increasing escalation of mechanics and difficulty of fractals?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >

> > > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

> >

> > This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

> >

> > Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

> >

> >

>

> You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

 

Uhhh, thanks, but I was. Been playing the Guild Wars franchise since 2005. I didn’t blow through all the content in one go as I had other commitments.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >

> > > > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

> > >

> > > This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

> > >

> > > Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

>

> Uhhh, thanks, but I was. Been playing the Guild Wars franchise since 2005. I didn’t blow through all the content in one go as I had other commitments.

 

At launch many players hit level cap within 2-4 weeks and getting geared in full exotic didn't take all that much longer after that.

 

The entire cosmetic aspects of GW2, achievement points, fractals, open world meta events, farm maps, Living World story, etc. none of it was there. People literally got bored unless they enjoyed spvp or wvw. There was no pve endgame besides dungeons (and those were very hard for people to adapt to initially) and even those were only good for farming gold (or running around in Orr with maximum magic find in a big boring zerg). That's what people were complaining about in pve.

 

Raids are part of the current endgame, but both duration and content wise by far the smallest part. What most people are unhappy about who complain about raids though is the lack of access to raid specific rewards.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Again, it was a whine about the lack of end game not about the lack of Raids.

> > > >

> > > > This is why I’m getting confused. When people are whining about “end game” what are they talking about?

> > > >

> > > > Raiding is a huge portion of end game or challenging pve instanced content.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You weren't here at launch, one can tell.

> >

> > Uhhh, thanks, but I was. Been playing the Guild Wars franchise since 2005. I didn’t blow through all the content in one go as I had other commitments.

>

> At launch many players hit level cap within 2-4 weeks and getting geared in full exotic didn't take all that much longer after that.

>

> The entire cosmetic aspects of GW2, achievement points, fractals, open world meta events, farm maps, Living World story, etc. none of it was there. People literally got bored unless they enjoyed spvp or wvw. There was no pve endgame besides dungeons (and those were very hard for people to adapt to initially) and even those were only good for farming gold (or running around in Orr with maximum magic find in a big boring zerg). That's what people were complaining about in pve.

>

> Raids are part of the current endgame, but both duration and content wise by far the smallest part. What most people are unhappy about who complain about raids though is the lack of access to raid specific rewards.

 

Yeah I hadn’t even hit 80 by Shadow of the Mad King release. So I was a bit of behind in that regard, probably why this wasn’t an issue for me.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

My turn for a text wall! :)

 

A lot of this back and forth really isn't productive. Discussion is good, to a point. We are beyond the point of useful discussion here. We understand the points of view present on both sides.

 

We will never please everyone with our content, as is evident in this thread, but we still do aim to please as many as we can. The advantage of having fractals of different difficulties is that there is something for everyone. Hardcore players have their CMs and harder fractals, and more casual players have lower tiers and easier fractals. I understand that there is a lot of concern that all fractals are getting too hard, but that is not our goal. We just want every fractal to be engaging and challenging in its own way. Look at the snowblind, cliffside, mai trin, and molten boss reworks. In my opinion while they may have gotten a tad more difficult, in reality the content quality and the "fun" and fairness of the encounters was improved. They are entirely manageable by pugs after they played a couple times, which I believe is true of the majority of fractals. Swamp obviously got way harder but what did you expect. It used to be like fighting a dps golem.

 

In no way do we think Twilight Oasis is perfect, and I've already stated that we aren't trying to make every fractal like it. We do want to give our players new and exciting challenges with each release, but they shouldn't be tedious. If it feels tedious, we either have misstepped, or people need more time to learn.

 

Obviously rewards are higher for tier 4 and CM than lower tiers, as more challenging content deserves higher rewards. If there is a fractal that is simply too difficult for you at tier 4, either try it at lower tiers, or skip it in the daily rotation. If you skip it we will see that in our metrics and it will inform our future decisions. People do skip shattered observatory and that has been informative to us.

 

Further bickering in this thread will not sway our future decisions, as that is what we have metrics and collective feedback for (This thread has some good feedback, but also a lot of pointless posts)

 

I love all you guys and I understand that criticism comes out of love for the content and the desire for it to succeed, and for that I thank you all, but let's stop the pointless bickering or I'll have to have the thread locked.

[Henrik.7560]

As a well experienced raider, I prefer the fractals when they were more easier and a place to relax with a group. Mechanic/AoE spam is not fun and is a poor way to create challenging content. I am okay with Molten Boss changes, they make it interesting. Twilight Oasis sucks. Shattered Observatory CM is not much harder than the normal mode, where the mechanic spam is almost equally intense. Challenge motes should be hard and I get that, that's fine, but make the regular ones no so bad.

 

Fractals should not be tedious. Twilight Oasis, and regular 100 are the most tedious fractals ever. The lack of imagination that has been displayed into fractals recently has not been pleasing, and I speak for many others. If you want to make it so as we can't farm it, add more story to it, dialogue, distance to cover, slower mechanics. 10% of the game community are regular raiders and may enjoy this tedious content, the rest don't.

 

Good fractals are: Cliffside, Urban, Snowblind, Molten Furnace, Snowblind, Uncategorized, Swampland, Molten Boss etc.

While Twilight Oasis and Shattered Observatory are bad, Thaumanova subject 6 was reworked to be too difficult for regular groups, requiring either really good dps to 1 burn it down or good bursts and CCs as well as survibability to sustain through the AoE spam and kill the adds. Their patches progressively got worse from here on. I am perfectly capable of doing these harder fractals, and quickly too with a good group, but my friends, guildies and I do not enjoy them.

 

EDIT: Forgot Mai trin, because that change really sucks, constant cannon spam during the whole fight while having to kill the bosses, ontop of more adds.

[MashMash.1645]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @MashMash.1645 said:

> > Thier reasoning, if you wanna call it that, was to make fractals a stepping stone to raids. A dev commented on it on the old forums or reddit (I forget which).

> >

> > Even though no one asked for this.

> >

> > But, you know,…… ANet! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>

> Actually, people did ask for it. Folks said that the gap between fractals and raids was too great.

 

How many were these people? 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% of fractals players?

 

There are always people asking for all sorts of things.

 

If I want to raid, I'll go raid (and I do). But fractals aren't raids. I wish ANet would stop trying to turn them into raids. When the dev posted that response, I did a double take. I had never heard this complaint before, and I used to read the forums and reddit a fair bit. Lots of bitching about fractals, but I don't recall masses of people screaming out for making fractals some sort of pseudo raid training.

 

Making them more challenging or harder, yes. I saw that asked for a decent amount. But this specific idea that they should be a "raid introduction" or something - the dev comment was the first time I saw that idea floated. (I await all links to the hundreds / thousands of requests for that fml).

 

Personally, they've ruined fractals for me. I sort of hate them now. Not that I can't do them mind you, but rather I find them un-fun (is that a word? I think it might not be -_-). I do them if I need something from them, and put up with them for as little time as necessary.

 

 

 

[Rennie.6750]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> My turn for a text wall! :)

>

> A lot of this back and forth really isn't productive. Discussion is good, to a point. We are beyond the point of useful discussion here. We understand the points of view present on both sides.

>

> We will never please everyone with our content, as is evident in this thread, but we still do aim to please as many as we can. The advantage of having fractals of different difficulties is that there is something for everyone. Hardcore players have their CMs and harder fractals, and more casual players have lower tiers and easier fractals. I understand that there is a lot of concern that all fractals are getting too hard, but that is not our goal. We just want every fractal to be engaging and challenging in its own way. Look at the snowblind, cliffside, mai trin, and molten boss reworks. In my opinion while they may have gotten a tad more difficult, in reality the content quality and the "fun" and fairness of the encounters was improved. They are entirely manageable by pugs after they played a couple times, which I believe is true of the majority of fractals. Swamp obviously got way harder but what did you expect. It used to be like fighting a dps golem.

>

> In no way do we think Twilight Oasis is perfect, and I've already stated that we aren't trying to make every fractal like it. We do want to give our players new and exciting challenges with each release, but they shouldn't be tedious. If it feels tedious, we either have misstepped, or people need more time to learn.

>

> Obviously rewards are higher for tier 4 and CM than lower tiers, as more challenging content deserves higher rewards. If there is a fractal that is simply too difficult for you at tier 4, either try it at lower tiers, or skip it in the daily rotation. If you skip it we will see that in our metrics and it will inform our future decisions. People do skip shattered observatory and that has been informative to us.

>

> Further bickering in this thread will not sway our future decisions, as that is what we have metrics and collective feedback for (This thread has some good feedback, but also a lot of pointless posts)

>

> I love all you guys and I understand that criticism comes out of love for the content and the desire for it to succeed, and for that I thank you all, but let's stop the pointless bickering or I'll have to have the thread locked.

 

Okay, fair enough (I stopped contributing some time ago due to the bickering anyway).

 

Can I suggest some different types of mechanics that are a staple of instanced content in MMOs and are yet to be seen in GW2? In no particular order:

 

- adds swarm during a boss fight

- healing aggro

- explosive adds with a dps check (not last laugh, blow up on contact)

- CC that isn't a stun (leash pushback...)

- boss healing

- lifesteal

- permanently destroyed environment/boss arena

- constantly moving/walking boss

- splitting dps

 

And I could add a lot more. I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, I'm merely pointing out that we already had a ton of AoE/cc spams already and that it's getting a bit old (oasis just cranked that mechanic to 11), and that there are a lot of unexplored types of challenges that aren't exclusively twitch gameplay. You're arguing that you're trying different things and I understand that AoEs are not going away, and that's fine, really, but IMO it's not very different, it's just more of the very same old mechanics per second.

 

What's really telling in Oasis is that Amala doesn't even have a breakbar outside of CC events to burst it down, it's like "OK guys we're bending the rules, not because the fight is special but because it's all we've got. Yes that's right, with a defiance bar, Amala would be quite lame, and that's really the biggest problem of the trend in instanced content design atm. There's no depth or variety in these encounters, it's just a quick adrenaline shot that wouldn't survive a 6-7s break.

 

Another issue I have is that it's not just a trend in fractals, it's also in story instances and open world events. It's something all ANet designers suddenly started playing with since PoF and right now I'm really feeling the AoE spam fatigue. It's everywhere! There's open world amala, story balthazar, the PoF metas, the final boss in Istan's storyline... And from what my guildies told me the new raid is more or less similar, when you play it you feel like a hamster on crack. Fractals don't exist in a bubble, and right now I'm quite tired of seeing the same type of fights everywhere.

[tern.7893]

I don't post often, and I'm sorry for the wall of text. This is a topic close to my heart.

 

For context, I've been a regular fractaller (and raider) for years. Prior to HoT, I would run the old 50 and 40 everyday, and often teach Scale 9 to first-timers.

 

In the past year or so, there has been a discernible shift in how the community sees and does fractals. In NA, there is a move towards LFG parties asking for food, potions and meta compositions. Fractals have also followed raids in the alarming trend of people quitting as soon as there's a wipe.

 

The overall reduction in accessibility is my biggest concern with fractals today. Some of my guildmates took months before trying 99 and 100, having been put off by the perceived difficulty and an unwarranted fear that they would be a burden to teammates. Today, many of the best fractallers I know would rather skip Twilight Oasis than to do it with pugs. (This is also true of 100CM, post-fix.)

 

I have an older guildmate who isn't able to raid at a high level due to mechanical issues. He loves fractals though, and used to pug regularly pre-HoT. In the past year, I've seen him run fractals less and less. He has never been able to do 100 or 99. And 87 probably never. Even the revamped Mai Trin may now be beyond his ability.

 

Raids have significantly raised the average skill level of the community. The new fractals track this trendline accordingly. For those who run updated meta builds and DPS meters, the new and revised fractals can be satisfying. For those who don't raid, it feels like they have been left behind.

 

The stock answer here is that these individuals should go for the lower tiers. There are issues here, but I will just ask those who make this recommendation: Have you pugged T3s lately? A few months ago, I levelled an alt, and T3 pugging was among the worst fractal experiences I've ever had. This is where the scaled difficulty outstrips the limited experience and knowledge that T3'ers have. I wasted no time in equipping my alt with enough AR for T4s. Others who have levelled alts have echoed my sentiment.

 

It is also telling that I have never heard anyone say: "T4 Mai Trin is too hard. I'll do T3 instead." People will simply choose not to run dailies that day. In theory, T3s are of course easier than T4s. But in reality T3s are probably even harder than T4s, considering the skill and experience of the individuals who run them. If the intent is for people to go to T3 for the harder dailies, then we need a proper review of the actual investment-reward at that level.

 

Speaking personally though, I don't want my friends to have to go to T3s to get their dailies. There's a bar in raids that some folks may never clear, and I would like fractals to be the place where we come together to enjoy end-game content. I'm okay if my runs take longer -- the elites will have their speedclears -- but I find it sad when fractals with a friend comes down to answering this question: To carry or not to carry?

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> I hope Anet stops listening to loud minority and start thinking about playerbase as a whole. We are the core of the game, not raiders. They were complaining for 3 years, ot raids, good enough. Now they are trying to take over fractals because raids are not enough - as was to be expected. Fractals are not supposed to be 5-man raids and I hope fractal team stops competing with raid team and focuses on providing fun yet not annoying fractals and never repeats the mistake of shattered observatory :)

>

> Anet, you will never satisfy raiders. This week they are praising new fractal and new raid. In a month they will go back to daily complaints of "not hard enough" content, develop cheezy tactics and continue with selling progression through your content. Please don't break fractals anymore, people who you try to please will never be grateful :)

 

I guess you want it easier t4 shouldnt be harder than t1 that would make majority still say too hard

[zealex.9410]

> @"Henrik.7560" said:

> As a well experienced raider, I prefer the fractals when they were more easier and a place to relax with a group. Mechanic/AoE spam is not fun and is a poor way to create challenging content. I am okay with Molten Boss changes, they make it interesting. Twilight Oasis sucks. Shattered Observatory CM is not much harder than the normal mode, where the mechanic spam is almost equally intense. Challenge motes should be hard and I get that, that's fine, but make the regular ones no so bad.

>

> Fractals should not be tedious. Twilight Oasis, and regular 100 are the most tedious fractals ever. The lack of imagination that has been displayed into fractals recently has not been pleasing, and I speak for many others. If you want to make it so as we can't farm it, add more story to it, dialogue, distance to cover, slower mechanics. 10% of the game community are regular raiders and may enjoy this tedious content, the rest don't.

>

> Good fractals are: Cliffside, Urban, Snowblind, Molten Furnace, Snowblind, Uncategorized, Swampland, Molten Boss etc.

> While Twilight Oasis and Shattered Observatory are bad, Thaumanova subject 6 was reworked to be too difficult for regular groups, requiring either really good dps to 1 burn it down or good bursts and CCs as well as survibability to sustain through the AoE spam and kill the adds. Their patches progressively got worse from here on. I am perfectly capable of doing these harder fractals, and quickly too with a good group, but my friends, guildies and I do not enjoy them.

>

> EDIT: Forgot Mai trin, because that change really sucks, constant cannon spam during the whole fight while having to kill the bosses, ontop of more adds.

 

Not all of us that want challenge like/do raids and theres alot 9f easy fractals to do.

[zealex.9410]

> @"MashMash.1645" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @MashMash.1645 said:

> > > Thier reasoning, if you wanna call it that, was to make fractals a stepping stone to raids. A dev commented on it on the old forums or reddit (I forget which).

> > >

> > > Even though no one asked for this.

> > >

> > > But, you know,…… ANet! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

> > Actually, people did ask for it. Folks said that the gap between fractals and raids was too great.

>

> How many were these people? 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% of fractals players?

>

> There are always people asking for all sorts of things.

>

> If I want to raid, I'll go raid (and I do). But fractals aren't raids. I wish ANet would stop trying to turn them into raids. When the dev posted that response, I did a double take. I had never heard this complaint before, and I used to read the forums and reddit a fair bit. Lots of kitten about fractals, but I don't recall masses of people screaming out for making fractals some sort of pseudo raid training.

>

> Making them more challenging or harder, yes. I saw that asked for a decent amount. But this specific idea that they should be a "raid introduction" or something - the dev comment was the first time I saw that idea floated. (I await all links to the hundreds / thousands of requests for that fml).

>

> Personally, they've ruined fractals for me. I sort of hate them now. Not that I can't do them mind you, but rather I find them un-fun (is that a word? I think it might not be -_-). I do them if I need something from them, and put up with them for as little time as necessary.

>

>

>

 

Can ppl stop carrying around the "fractals are not raids" candy? Idd they arent raids and they arent making them like raids. The whole "stepping stone to a raid" came up when they reworked snowblind and swampland. Literally every other "hard" fractal is hard for the sake of being hard not for the sake of it being a stepping stone to some raid.

 

I know its hard to believe but not everyone runs raids and yet they still want to be challenged in 1 form or another.

[spiritualabyss.7016]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Can ppl stop carrying around the "fractals are not raids" candy? Idd they arent raids and they arent making them like raids. The whole "stepping stone to a raid" came up when they reworked snowblind and swampland. Literally every other "hard" fractal is hard for the sake of being hard not for the sake of it being a stepping stone to some raid.

>

> I know its hard to believe but not everyone runs raids and yet they still want to be challenged in 1 form or another.

 

^this, so much this

I raided for quite a while - during that time, I had a static, did my weekly clears and even had some fun doing so.

 

But at core I am a fractals player - I prefer content that was designed for 5 people. That is one of the reasons, why I quit raiding over half a year ago.

 

Back in the days when fractals provided an actual challenge, I used to run fractal 38 daily on three different characters and brought my own fractal level up to 50+ until they removed it...

 

Then HoT came and they destroyed fractals.

 

A lot of horrible players, that - from my point of view - should never have set foot in that kind of content (read T4 fractals), started to run daily swamps, just because of the loot and gold reward..

During that time of "swamps of the mists" I entirely stopped running fractals.

Then they introduced the current daily system, which made me visit fractals more often again.

And finally with the introduction of CM's they started to add things that bring fractals closer to the original difficulty.

 

Due to powercreep and due to the introduction of breakbars, T4 fractals - and even CM's - have become significantly easier than the original fractals ever were (lol our ranger can heal nowadays).

Even CM fractals are easier than the previous regular ones.

 

I am one of those people that enjoy this kind of content. Someone that runs fractals, but not raids.

And I am happy that Anet finally started to move fractals towards a more interesting place.

 

@"Benjamin Arnold.3457"

A big thanks to the fractal dev-team for improving fractals and keeping us entertained :)