How to balance Scourge

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

So, what exactly makes us more (or even as) viable in (high-end) PvE content? We are already the least asked for in raids and T4 (CM) fractals. These suggested changes will only change that we'll be kicked on the spot from now on!

 

Let me help you:

1. Double burning stacks on stationary foes (e.g. via the traits: [Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire), [sadistic Searing](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sadistic_Searing) and [Demonic Lore](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Lore)) (which won't affect PvP/WvW players for pretty much 99% of the time, and if it does, you're just a bad player)

And if you want to tone down the boon removal _also_ in PvE (cause you mentioned avoiding splitting), which in my opinion is a very bad idea (it's pretty much the only thing that makes the Necro/Scourge a tiny bit useful)!!! Then at least do the following:

2. Remove boon removal on the Mesmer sword auto-attack: [Mind Spike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Spike)

3. Increase damage and/or applied condi stacks on boonless foes, for it's already harder to strip boons, you should be awarded if you achieve to strip them clean (also much harder to achieve in WvW/PvP than PvE!)

[Rudra.6932]

> @Renita.7824 said:

> So, changes 1 and 2 would hurt pve with change one basically removing scourge support which is what anet seems to want scourges role to be. The changes you propose are far too harsh for pvp as well, when range already counters scourges too well in my opinion, which is the tradeoff of scourges countering heavy boon classes and all melee classes.

 

Support Scourge is not a thing anywhere. As proposed in point 1, with Sand Savant not affecting Scourge centered ring's radius (radius only, not target cap), the scourge can still "support" 5 people with barrier while using a single sand Shade using Sand Savant trait and additional 5 people near the scourge, but not in a 300m radius, but a 150m radius. I don't see how that is a problem if and when Anet increases the support potential of scourge.

 

I agree that point 2 is unnecessary. The shade auto attacks needs to remain otherwise it will remove scourge from viability.

 

The biggest problems with scourge right now are -

1. Very low cool down boon corruption F2 skill which is instant activation with instant effect.

2. A big radius of kill zone around the scourge which renders proper placement of shades inconsequential in most team fights.

 

A reduced radius around the scourge will address both these issues.

 

Now I am not different class main complaining about how op scourge is. Necromancer is my main class and I play both Scourge and Reaper and I can see these glaring problems in Scourge. I know for a fact, that even if the radius around me is not affected by Sand Savant, I can still turn team fights with a scourge and the original scourge radius is still good enough for melee deterrence while not completely shutting it down. I know that I am already weak against ranged pressure if I am caught in the open and this change will not affect that in any way.

 

The radius reduction around the scourge will go along way in bringing back a semblance of intelligence in scourge gameplay while providing intelligent counterplay options. As it stands now, if I log in to a scourge, I press buttons and stuff die. It is a snooze fest.

[obcan.1470]

> @Zero.3871 said:

> this changes are not good in my opinion.

>

> >Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple

>

> scourge is by far slowliest class in the game. and you want delete cripple from scourge? the only way to catch enemies. how you want beat a ranger if you cannot slow him? he will use superspeed invis and leaps to kite you and bomb you on 1500 range and you will never land a hit.

>

 

How about you think, how to run away from class that :

1. Caps whole point alone with AoE almost as big as the point.

2. Already corrupts your swiftness to cripple without cripple on that shit alone.

3. Requires almost no PvP experience. Necro literally has to understand basics. I protec point I win. Necro doesnt have to think about running to decap other point because he doesnt have to face Necro.

 

 

 

> >Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge

>

> its just the counter to the superfluous amount of boons all classes cast in the game have.

> boonshare meta in hot was kitten, so its good that scourge AND WARRIOR counter it.

> how you want stop an enemy with perma stabi, perma resistance, perma protection without boonstrip???

>

 

By nerfing boon spam for classes that over perform, not by creating class that counters all 8 other classes.

 

> finally necro is

>

> -> last place in mobility rank

 

For good reason. Imagine mobile Scourge flying from point to point decapping it alone with only counterplay being Deadeye camping it.

 

> -> last place in casting boons (also stability)

 

I think boon corruption makes up for that fucking plenty.

 

> -> last place in casting heal

 

Why would you give class pocket support? Isnt firebrand baby sitting you enough?

 

> -> last place in sustain (no blocks, no invuls, no invis)

 

This point fuckin kills me man XD. NECRO HAS 19K BASE HEALTH. I KNOW ITS SURPRISE BUT ONLY CLASS THAT DOES HAVE 19K BASE HP TOO IS FUCKING WARRIOR. ON TOP OF THAT NECRO HAS SHROUD OR FUCKING SHIELD. No blocks? Let me fear all the cunts away. No invuls? Barrier aint good enough huh? Especially since barrier blocks condi dmg while inluv wont save you. No invis? Not even thieves use invisibility so whats your point?

 

> -> not only 1 good weapon on necromancers in comparison to all other classes

 

What yo dou mean not 1 good weapon? Scepter necro stacks condis for nothing. No projectile to evade or block. Simple auto attack.

 

> thiefs -> massive numbers of dodges, ports, invis, also a block WHILE massive dmg (can one-shoot people)

 

But cant necros.

 

> mesmers -> massive invuls, invis, stunbreaks, ports, blocks/evades WHILE massive dmg in condi AND power (can one shot people)

 

Yea fair this class needs some toning down just like necros.

 

> warriors -> massive invuls, blocks, leaps while massive dmg (massive dmg hits on on axe and GS)

 

Who runs axe? Also he got nerf to resistance so he shouldnt be problem for necros.

 

> holosmith -> every 2 sec 600 range leap in photon forge, 900 range leaps on rocket boots bring him very high mobility, massive dmg on photon skills and elite (1200 range + knockback + 60 sec cd - less than ghastly breach)

 

Not only holosmith is forced to play melee in holo forge, he gets boons you can corrupt, and when he doesnt look after heat he will literally half kill himself. Very high mobility would be nice counter to necro if he literally couldnt stand in his cancer fields as big as my mom.

 

> i could continue with it for ranger (massive sustain and range and mobility), firebrand (endless support, burndmg), ele (a lot more dmg than scourge in every scenario, while have more support in heal AND booncast).

 

Firebrand needs nerfs. I dont care about rangers but man. Man. Ele has more dmg than scourge in every scenario. In what world? Are we talking about full zerk fresh air scepter focus ele? THAT DOESNT HAVE SAID SUPPORT AND DIES FROM 2 HITS? Or are we talking about auramancer. Which thanks to you now rather than healing teammates kills them thanks to necro. Or perhaps you are talking about Sw/Dagger weaver. Which at best hits for 3k with Fire 2 skill.

 

>

> only rev ist weak class atm.

>

 

Herald is currently sitting on 57% win rate, you really dont play Pvp at all.

 

> the only reason people cry because of scourge is, that people want back skilless boonshare yolopush meta which is countered by warri and scourge. i can only say l2p. who just push into enemies and spamming 1 have no right to win any fight. thats skilless and deserved to get punished.

 

How is THIS better? Only difference is that one was defensive while this is offensive build. Current necro is literally in same state auramancer tempest was. If tempest was your problem then, then necro is your problem now.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> This point fuckin kills me man XD. NECRO HAS 19K BASE HEALTH. I KNOW ITS SURPRISE BUT ONLY CLASS THAT DOES HAVE 19K BASE HP TOO IS kitten WARRIOR. ON TOP OF THAT NECRO HAS SHROUD OR kitten SHIELD. No blocks? Let me fear all the kitten away. No invuls? Barrier aint good enough huh? Especially since barrier blocks condi dmg while inluv wont save you. No invis? Not even thieves use invisibility so whats your point?

 

I can only say that you are overestimating health and underestimating active defense and this does not deserve you as a gw2 player. Block, invuln, evade and dodge allow you to prevent infinitely mre damage than what a few point of health can prevent. It also allow you to prevent hard CC from making you take even more hit than you intended. So please just stop with your "high health pool are OP", it only show how poor your understanding of the defensive mechanisms of the game is.

 

A large health as only defensive mechanism:

Pro:

- allow you a few more seconds to handle condi pressure

- ease your mind at the thought of being hit

 

Con:

- make you utterly weak against hard CC

- force you to take all the hits and the procs from those hit

- the more health you got the harder it is to refill it

 

These cons outweight the pro in gw2 dynamic gameplay. Even the pros are a weakness, since it make you as a player more "dull" in front of the beating that the opponent give you and that is a flaw that easily lead you to your fall.

 

On topic:

The focus of the proposed change on scourge's tools and not on core tools is a step in the right direction in order to balance the scourge. However, first thing to do would be to balance scourge shroud skills. The awfully short cool downs in comparison to _death shroud_ and the fact that there is no cast time make for pretty strong skills. If it were me I'd get rid altogether of the shade and push everything onto the scourge while making F1 a spamable ranged aoe skill with cast time and after cast.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Renita.7824 said:

> So, changes 1 and 2 would hurt pve with change one basically removing scourge support which is what anet seems to want scourges role to be. The changes you propose are far too harsh for pvp as well, when range already counters scourges too well in my opinion, which is the tradeoff of scourges countering heavy boon classes and all melee classes.

 

Except a scourge can simply queue with a support FB or support Tempest and completely nullify the "weakness to ranged classes" meanwhile no support is capable of keeping a melee alive against a scourge for a reasonable amount of time.

[Obtena.7952]

Looks like Anet's approach to balancing condi bombing (something Scourge is really good at) is to enforce the original idea of conditions being sustained DoT's, not bursting. I don't think this bodes well for Scourge.

[Eros.6801]

Brace yourselves.

 

[https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update#latest")

[Chaith.8256]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> These cons outweight the pro in gw2 dynamic gameplay.

 

That's just a comparison of how long you'll live if you sit there and soak damage with high vitality vs spamming invuln frames. Of course option 2 is better.

 

In a real gw2 dynamic environment there's more multiple more factors which you left out:

 

- How much counterpressure are you outputting when you're soaking damage with high vitality?

- How hard is it for your attacker to negate this counterpressure?

- How much stability and healing can you have pumped in to you from outside sources if you're going to be guaranteed to cause Hiroshima if you manage to stay alive?

 

This is really where your pros and cons comparison is asking the wrong questions.

 

The answers:

- Scourge does unprecedented counterpressure, more than compensating for a weaker form of defense by soaking damage with vitality.

- Scourge counterpressure is very hard to negate, with two 300 radius blasting zones of instant cast conditions & corruptions.

- Scourges being able to all-in to AoE counterpressure makes any healing and rolling Stability a Firebrand grants a Scourge __200% effective__ compared to the value of healing anything else. This symbiotic relationship is the true cause of the mega imbalance.

 

From a PvP balance perspective, there are two possibilities:

- One, Scourge would need a different role than AoE counterpressure and therefore not auto-carry fights so massively when it is propped up by stab/heal life support. Re-worked to a competitively strong support, duelist, or given other utility.

- Two, Scourge needs to have easier to negate counterpressure. Either much more easily avoided, or much more skillful to land, or both.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

Well I'm answering to the general "necro" side of the defensive question, and I agree with you that scourge need a lot of polish.

 

My issue is more it's wrong claim that health point is a good defensive option. It's not. Like you say if you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand minipet that take care of him.

 

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> From a PvP balance perspective, there are two possibilities:

> - One, Scourge would need a different role than AoE counterpressure and therefore not auto-carry fights so massively when it is propped up by stab/heal life support. Re-worked to a competitively strong support, duelist, or given other utility.

> - Two, Scourge needs to have easier to negate counterpressure. Either much more easily avoided, or much more skillful to land, or both.

 

I totally agree with you on those point. The way anet designed the scourge really impacted to much PvP gamemodes. It's understandable that they want to tune down boons, afterall they are trying to do so since a long time already, however, in my opinion, the scourge put this "aspect" off limit. It would have been better if we had seen more e-spec with access to boon strip (like they did with the spell breaker) than having the massive toxic cloud which is the scourge. If you add the fact that most scourge shroud skills can not be interrupt, it's totally ridiculous. There is no deny that the scourge at this point is a cancer for PvP that need a lot of work from the balance team, however, Im afraid that the whole mechanism need to be reworked at this point (like the shroud which need rework since launch...)

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

@"Dadnir.5038"

> If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

 

You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

 

I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> @"Dadnir.5038"

> > If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

>

> You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

>

> I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

 

My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about large health pool vs active defense in a general manner. So again, health point as a mean of defense, in a solo contest, will be vastly outshined by active defense as a mean of defense. This is a direct answer to those that claim that having a large health pool is a strong defense. It is not. A large health pool is a finite defense while active defense have infinite potential.

 

Now, if you read the later half of my post, you should have seen that I agree with you that the scourge (and yes here I'm talking about the scourge) need some tune down in it's mechanism. For me it's unbelievable that all those shroud scourge skills manage to end up being instant skills and even that there is no way to counter the desert shroud. At the very least, an interrupt should be able to stop the desert shroud.

[Ivantreil.3092]

> @Zero.3871 said:

>

> -> cripple

> 1.)removals:

> **engis -> mecha leggs (in inventions): -33% cripple**

 

I can't really speak for the other classes, but for my main Engi, don't bring that shit argument of "there's an existing counter, so it's fine", take a kitten look to our meta builds, inventions has been dumped from being a viable option, because we don't have enough damage for like spec in survival traits, we need the offensive traits or we hit like a noodle, if you are gonna argue counters, at least make sure it's being kitten use on this meta.

 

 

[Lexan.5930]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> The primary aim of these changes is to:

> * Tone down Scourge's raw power level in PvP and WvW

> * Increase parity between Sand Savant and Scourge's other two grandmaster traits in WvW and sPvP.

> * Improve Support options for Scourge

> * Reduce the superfluous amount of boonrip on Scourge.

> * Increase scourge's disengage and escape options.

> * Do all of the above without needing skill splitting and without negatively affecting Scourge's PvE DPS potential.

> * Still leave scourge as a competitive option in PvP and WvW.

>

> Now that I have laid out my goals for these changes, here are the proposed changes themselves:

>

> 1. Sand Savant only increases the size of shades, Sand Savant will no longer increase the size of effects spawned at the scourge.

> 2. Shade auto attacks are only casted by shades and not at the scourge's position.

> 3. The healing power contribution to the Barriers applied by Sand Cascade, Sand Flare, and Desert Empowerment is significantly increased.

> 4. Shade auto attacks no longer apply cripple.

> 5. Punishment skills now only convert boons into torment, instead of torment + cripple.

> 6. Demonic Lore now applies Cripple in addition to it's previous effects.

> 7. The Shade recharge reduction component of Sand Savant has been moved to Feed from Corruption.

> 8. Ghastly Breach's cooldown has been increased to 120 seconds.

> 9. Trail of Anguish now applies 3 stacks of Stability. (up from 1) Trail of Anguish no longer converts boons.

> 10. Sand Swell cast time reduced to 0.5 seconds. (down from 1 second) Sand Swell no longer converts boons.

> 11. Abrasive Gift now converts 1 condition into a boon instead of cleansing.

>

> The purpose of changes #1 and #2 are to make it so that Scourges now need to utilitize their shades for offense, instead of simply having 300 radius killzone perpetually centered on the scourge's position. This should make scourge less of shutout hard counter to melee classes, while still leaving Shades as a effective area denial tool.

> The purpose of changes #3 and #11 is to make more support focused scourge better to open up a new role for scourge.

> The purpose of changes #4 and #5 is because having every torment applying skill natively come with it's own cover condi is excessive, and the lack of a rate limit on how fast cripple can be applied results in current gen Scourge being able to apply so much cripple as to be able to maintain 100% uptime even against builds that are running enormous amounts of -cripple duration and impairment removing skills.

> The purpose of #6 is to offset the removal of cripple from all other skills by allowing scourge to trait back into cripple access, but since Demonic Lore has a ICD, the cripple access from this trait will not be as overpowering as current gen Scourge's is. This change also makes Demonic Lore more desirable in PvP.

> The purpose of change #7 is to cut down on the dominance of Sand Savant as a trait, moreover the recharge reduction makes much more sense on 3-shade scourge than it does on Savant Scourge given that 3-shade scourge needs that recharge reduction much more.

> The purpose of #8 is to bring Ghastly Breach inline with Plaguelands. (Currently Ghastly Breach is just a significantly better version of Plaguelands as far as PvP is concerned)

> The purpose of #9 and #10 is to give scourge a little better escape capabilities, while cutting down on the superfluous amounts of boonrip available to scourge.

>

>

 

I like what your trying to do here. I would love that the top line of scourge give us more boons. I would love to see protection when traited for sand savant, and rejuvenation, or a small heal to desert empowerment. I find that blood healing is really good, when you can predict damage taken by allies. I would love to see scourge be able to put out small heals with their barrier similar to how elle puts out healing with aura's as well as all their added bonus effects. I would love to see the healing range of transfusion increased to 600 units to allow better healing in a raid scenario.

 

Removing cripple kind of kills the flavor of torment in that it does more damage as people move and cripple makes them move slower so the idea is more damage from point a to b. I would like to see the cripple last longer so people have to cleanse it more in spvp.

 

I dont like the idea of changing sand savant not increase the area around the necro. I play support in raids sometimes and being able to barrier 2 separate locations and hit 10 people is really important.

 

Sand swell shorter cast time would be so desired. YES please anet give us this .5 cast time :). Also maybe 900 range?????

[Lexan.5930]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @Chaith.8256 said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038"

> > > If you got some huge support behind you it does have the possibility to shine but in an hypothetical solo contest, active defense will always vastly outshine passive defense. Not everybody can have a firebrand

> >

> > You know that in a solo contest Scourge beats every meta build in the hands of equally top end players? The problem with doing that is it reduces your value significantly to be away from Firebrand and multiple enemies, as your team will auto lose vs. enemy Scourge & Firebrand if their Scourge is not squandering its value by merely winning a 1v1.

> >

> > I don't see the basis for your claim that a solo contest leaves a Scourge vastly outshined.

>

> My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about large health pool vs active defense in a general manner. So again, health point as a mean of defense, in a solo contest, will be vastly outshined by active defense as a mean of defense. This is a direct answer to those that claim that having a large health pool is a strong defense. It is not. A large health pool is a finite defense while active defense have infinite potential.

>

> Now, if you read the later half of my post, you should have seen that I agree with you that the scourge (and yes here I'm talking about the scourge) need some tune down in it's mechanism. For me it's unbelievable that all those shroud scourge skills manage to end up being instant skills and even that there is no way to counter the desert shroud. At the very least, an interrupt should be able to stop the desert shroud.

 

I totally agree with this. Health is not a defensive aspect in the same way that boons, dodges, and abilities are. Having a high health pool but with no way to refill it means nothing. Or having mobility as well. Warrior has the same heath pool as necro, higher armor and more mobility and lower cooldowns. Even if they can't heal well on demand, they can get away and have active defenses negating physcal damage and condi damage on demand.

 

Other classes have invulnerabiliy or the ability to get out if things are too hot. Necro has lmited acess to defensive boons, and has a very limited mobility so that many other classes that can chase down have a large advantage. Necro's high health poool doesn't do much f we can't refill is anywhere near as quickly as say engi's or elle's or even guardians.

 

The idea that a necro can "outlast" opponents as anet says they want, is hard to actually realize in spvp, or even at all. Necro's, even with barrier, still rely on teammates, especially in a teamfight where the CC is crazy and getting away is not an option.

[Axl.8924]

What I see here is a lot of necro hate.

 

How come mesmers can be gods in pvp guardians rangers thieves eles, and warriors, but necros are relegated to being trash tier in every mode but WvW? And now you want them to be trash there.How is that fair?

 

The reason I don't pvp in Spvp is because I cannot find a good team mate who wants to play and will heal me to keep me alive, and in Spvp my team usually ignores me and throws me under the bus and the enemy team rushes me and insta Gibs me.Necros need some sorta way to counter other classes, because being able to be hard countered by all other classes sure isn't fair.

[Obtena.7952]

How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

[Axl.8924]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

 

Because if you nerf necro and make them trash tier, they are going to be useless all around.

 

World of Warcraft has roles, Everquest has roles for every class, and necro needs a role.Its not balanced if only a couple of classes are mandatory and the rest are niche.

 

Solution:Make every class niche.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > How is that fair? Since when is MMO about being fair?

>

> Because if you nerf necro and make them trash tier, they are going to be useless all around.

>

> World of Warcraft has roles, Everquest has roles for every class, and necro needs a role.Its not balanced if only a couple of classes are mandatory and the rest are niche.

>

> Solution:Make every class niche.

 

OK, but that doesn't say anything about fair ... WoW, Everquest ... those MMO's don't apply here. They have a completely different game philosophy and design. How do you make ever class niche in a game without trinity? Even in trinity games, you don't have niches for classes ... unless there are so few classes that EACH fills the unique role only it has.

 

People need a greater appreciation for how different GW2 is ans what that means for their personal ideas of what that means for class design. Before raids, class design in GW2 was a PURELY CONCEPTUAL one; there was never any need for 'fair' or 'balance' as we understand it because content didn't require people to choose specific classes.

[Axl.8924]

I believe the problem with gw2 is that there is no trinity.How do you balance these classes?

 

Also I,ver heard that if it wasn't about dps race it would open up desiring others.If necros and others do less dos but are consistently desired for something, I could live with that, but other classes can provide more stuff and do it way better, so why bring necro? Yeah sure we got our epidemic, but if epi gets nerfed, might as well just delete necro class.

 

I also wish anet would try to balance the core necro and elites so we can have multiple roles.I like playing multiple classes, but opening up possibility for one more role just in case is nice for those who love necro.It feels kinda weird how our previous elite was nerfed to make way for our new elite, and how they didn't think ahead how it would effect pvp.If scourge was as broken previous to the nerfs, what were they thinking? They need to do more beta testing.

 

Also:In fractals coni turn and boon corrupt is super useful.If it was as useful in raids, that would be wonderful.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

The answer is simple ... the classes don't need to be balanced in a game where the key factor in class differentiation isn't based on roles. Holy trinity ensures a class has a 'place' in the game, so the developers need to ensure those classes do their jobs. GW2 doesn't do that. Also, Anet hasn't created an environment that does not require performance equivalence among the classes. That design philosophy has allowed players the freedom to make class and build decisions freeing them of performance-analysis burden other games have. It's a VERY casual friendly approach and it was intended.

 

The ACTUAL problem is that you and others can't break free of the traditional notions other MMO's have indoctrinated you into; that balance (or more accurately, performance equivalence) is important. In this game, it's not; when Anet refers to balance, it's based on their idea of how the game should work, not that there are variations in performance between or within classes that need to be removed. This upcoming Wintersday patch is a great example; the change to conditions into being a more sustained damage source is not borne out of the idea that any class is over or under performing ... it's based on the fact that Anet wants conditions to require build up and maintenance to get long-termed sustained damage from them ... that's a boarder game mechanics consideration.

 

You're trying to force a concept on a game that has intentionally discarded it.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> My basis is not the scourge but the mean. I'm saying it again, health point are not a better mean of survivability than active defense. You are blinded by the scourge spec, it's not what I'm talking about here.

 

So you claim that overall you objectively see Scourge in full context and largely agree that Scourge needs a rework into an equally powerful role but less to do with teamfighting and relying on Firebrand.

 

You can understand my confusion in saying that due to Scourge's defense type, without Firebrand it gets outshined when solo. If you understood the Scourge in full context, you'd understand why that's false - Blood Scourge is possibly the best fighter in 1v1 / small scale despite its lack of active avoidance which is made up for.

 

Just in general, lacking a certain thing doesn't disqualify you from excelling in any or all roles. Looking at a profession from the full potential is the only valuable perspective.