Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

[Ghos.1326]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @Accelerator.3598 said:

> > Please for the love of god, split this "Balance Update" into PvE and PvP. I know the condi burst is just ridiculous in PvP but don't balance PvE around PvP again. For the part that's targeted at PvE content, the main issue here is not condi builds being overwhelmingly strong, but power builds being underwhelmingly weak and this should be where you start to balance, by adding power to weak builds and not by nerfing the in comparison stronger builds to the ground.

>

> ^This. I managed to get over you guys nerfing the heck out of my favorite PoF build (Mirage, axe clone ambush). Now you're telling me you're going to kill my burst with it, too? Seriously, what is your next trick going to be?

 

Everyone cries when their overpowered builds see some needed balance. nobody likes to be on equal ground, it seems. XD

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Lumberjack.8546" said:

 

> I don't think condi builds are going to be mitigated to that extent, because if you remember Irenio mentioning that they are** 'Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay'.** Nothing in his post mentions anything about dropping the amount of condition stacks or condition types, merely pacing them out and putting condition damage at a more even pace in accordance to the damage over time philosophy.

>

> To reiterate, right now we have:

> * Condition builds that output too many stacks of condi in a near instantaneous/instant amount of time. Exp: (Scourge's Profession skills/Shades, Mirage) Now they're pacing them out to avoid them reaching their full potiential in a instant, and even increasing their damage/amount of stacks to reward prolonged exposure to damage sources.

>

> * Condition damage can be divided into parts, the activation (think, actually hitting the target) and the ticking condis tha arise from the condi. Right now imho we have too many condition setting spells that have too much impact while being hard to avoid/dodge as a large number of them don't have a good telegraph, elongating the damage allows more leeway for classes with less condi clears to clear it without it being too much of a death sentence. (Revs)

>

 

Unfortunately, not very many will listen or adhere to logic. Their tiny and closed mindsets can't handle the thought processes of these kinds of changes. I absolutely LOVE these changes. Condis should not be instant burst applications that deal thousands of damage per second, to be cleared and then, look instantly reapplied, and now you're out of clear and there is nothing you can do. While some professions can just clear them away at an even pace to where they are not affected, others have no counterplay whatsoever. So opening up some counterplay for professions that are not too heavy on condi clear (i.g. engineer) is a good thing. Doesn't mean engi won't still be weak to conditions, because their clears are on high cooldowns, or their clears don't clear too many condis at one time. It just provides a small opening for a counterplay choice that COULD be game changing, or could still cause you to get rekt lul if you miss, or don't properly play, to that said counterplay opportunity. It's so funny to see so many angry people here about this change, i can bet you my entirety of my gold that most of them play high burst condi classes and are mad that they won't be overly fucking op anymore (necros and mesmers). Lumberjack, I am on your side with this. This is not a nerf to condi classes. It's merely a balance, and putting condition damage in the place they were meant to be at: as strong, steady DAMAGE OVER TIME options that can melt you away if you're stupid enough to keep letting conditions stack up on you for too long.

I think this will promote healthy gameplay in all areas of the game, especially pvp. Finally teach people to actually think a little bit about their approach, fail and hopefully learn and improve from their failures.

PVE will be fine, not like the amount of condis per single application are going away, and if anything, condi application times are INCREASING, just decreasing how many stacks of one condi can be applied per application, which is awesome, while still giving condis the ability to deal high amounts of damage. if anything, with this change, now condis can be stacked on raid bosses and STAY STACKED ON THEM DUE TO THE TIME AFFECTED INCREASE TO THE SAID CONDITIONS THEMSELVES FOR EACH SKILL.

All in all, people need to not be kittening ignorant, and think a bit before crying about "CONDI CLASSES ARE DEAD RIP" while actually intelligent people are just lel'ing at their tears for naught.

[Mahou.3924]

 

 

> @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

> » show previous quotes

 

> Yes.

 

> If they go through with that trait change to power revenant I will actually delete mine. Clueless about their own game.

 

Yes, please do so!

 

[Hanth.2978]

> @"Mitsuko.3162" said:

> You need to boost mesmers back after the 40% damage nerf, this is going to basically reduce them even more. Thanks but no thanks. My decision - quit the game.

 

Seems a little harsh, my chrono mesmer still has a place in raids and high lvl fracts. For pvp/wvw a mirage power build still get's the job done and so does chrono but mirage is more fun for me.

[mygamingid.5816]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> * Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.

> - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.

> - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

 

People are still reading this as a nerf? 3*5=15. 2*8=16. 16>15. If the rebalance actually goes that way, PvE will see a buff to condi across the board. It'll only be an issue with open world minions who will last a bit longer.

 

Only the very initial burst will see a nerf, which amounts to 33% in this example by the time the original condi would've run its course. WvW and PvP players will have a couple extra seconds to clear condis, when initially applied, before they melt. Given complaints, that all sounds good for the game.

[Xca.9721]

So my renegade will be even worse for bosses like e.g. Samarog. Great.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"mygamingid.5816" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > * Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.

> > - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.

> > - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

>

> People are still reading this as a nerf? 3*5=15. 2*8=16. 16>15. If the rebalance actually goes that way, PvE will see a buff to condi across the board. It'll only be an issue with open world minions who will last a bit longer.

>

> Only the very initial burst will see a nerf, which amounts to 33% in this example by the time the original condi would've run its course. WvW and PvP players will have a couple extra seconds to clear condis, when initially applied, before they melt. Given complaints, that all sounds good for the game.

 

You just pointed out 2 major flaws with anets approach... Here are a couple of potential scenarios...

 

- Condi user gets blasted by 10k + hits while trying to slowly build up condi damage, and then gets shredded... This is overkill on the condi user.

 

- Condi user manages to survive long enough in a fight and exhausts the opponents ability handle conditions with cleanses and heal... This becomes overkill for the opponent.

 

Both scenarios need to be avoided. Anet needs to redesign the system, not just niggle about numbers that don’t address the core problems.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

This sounds like a long overdue step in the right direction. Hope it works out.

[Arlette.9684]

I smell bunker meta in the air. The condi nerf would only make all mirages reroll shatter ( as it will be the only viable spec) for pvp/wvw and then the tears will flood the lands of Tyria.

 

I’m more interested to see how the scourge bomb will change to make them more... hmm, approachable.

 

In any case, any nerf to condi is a buff to core Warrior and Gamebreaker. On the upside Holosmith will finally be viable.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > Well my advice to you dev's are:

> > 1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.

>

>

>

> Please people who are in charge of pvp/balance at Anet, completely ignore this quoted post. Slow pvp is really, really, really unfunny. Pretty much every other MMO on the market has super slow pvp - people who want that can play one of those games. Keep this game fast paced.

 

actually Shiyo you talking from what you love to do not what good for the game in general we need fast combat system i agree on that but the burstiness to get down so the fights became more enjoyable especially when streaming pvp games or pvp tournaments thats we missed this year :( for them to became easier to understand for the normal viewer who love pvp in general .

 

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > Well my advice to you dev's are:

> > > 1. Lower the DPS for CONDI by half and the DPS for POWER by Third or a bit more than a third, so only bursting can only be mad by multiple players. in the same time and make the sPVP experience more fun and the fights last longer. that's what we hardly see most fights are 1 min max we need longer fights in 1v1 if no bunker build there of course.

> >

> >

> >

> > Please people who are in charge of pvp/balance at Anet, completely ignore this quoted post. Slow pvp is really, really, really unfunny. Pretty much every other MMO on the market has super slow pvp - people who want that can play one of those games. Keep this game fast paced.

>

> actually Shiyo you talking from what you love to do not what good for the game in general we need fast combat system i agree on that but the burstiness to get down so the fights became more enjoyable especially when streaming pvp games or pvp tournaments thats we missed this year :( for them to became easier to understand for the normal viewer who love pvp in general .

>

That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

[Yukio blaster.9082]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

 

> As always, we’ll be looking for your feedback once you have had a chance to play with the upcoming changes. We’ll start a post here after December 12th to hear your thoughts, so please prepare your most constructive feedback.

>

hey devs i have a suggestion for you and i know its not fully about the subject but its for the health of the game overall .

-as we all know GW2 PVP is the best of all available MMO on the market and better and enjoyable more that the MOBA's around but still the PVP community is not so high for a lot of reason's ,balance isn't one of them, simple because all PVP games aren't balanced in anyway.

the first reason GW2 is marketed as a MMO and the marketing isn't based on PVP, so PVP lovers wont look to GW2 as a PVP game and they still go for the other MOBA games that's got more than 50 million between LOL and DOTA 2 if not even more.and that's a lot of money out there for a good PVP game to take a part from it,that's one.

the second thing is the availability to mass users GW2 is graphically friendly that's true you can play it on lower pc specs and that's a good thing but the high storage demand is so high for just a PVP lover to download more that 35gb that's hug if i'm just a PVP fun like my self so to overcome all this you need to create a PVP separated application that's not more than 5gb or 7gb max with the free core GW2 and the ability for the players to get the POF and HOT for half price but to get the expansions one at a hole and not get only one, but to only be used for PVP application and in the same time the possibility for the normal GW2 players to play in it normally. and add more 1v1 and 2v2 arena and why not 4v4 or 3v3 and as a fun idea PVP for mounts with flying fights and mounted fighters and races all this with a good marketing and a new name and a shared server world wide and with good partnership with good companies like twitch and to partnership with the PVP players that stream there games and respect the game, or YouTube game channels and with making more PVP tournaments every month to be streamed with low prizes as a starter like 2000 gems and some skins or so, but this need to be officially streamed by ANET and in your place ill just let JEBRO do the commenting .

i believe if all this happen that's would be great for the game and for us PVP player base .but beware GW2 dev"s for this to succeed you need a separated PVP team that manage the PVP separately from PVE completely and make sure that the guild wars 2 PVP version to be more stable and to remove any common issues that the currant PVP community suffer from, like the unbalanced games when a plat can play against lower gold or silver,or the high burstiness in pvp games just lower a bit the condi and power damage for longer lasting fights especially on the starter of this project so the new pvp players not instantly die to us original players and for a new player its not fun at all and maybe cos him to quite the game. so i hope that you dev's take this on consideration and make it happen the sooner the better as a new MOBA with multi ARENA's and FAST PVP game-play for only the smartest and the greatest PVP players i the world.

i will share this post on a pvp discussion too , PS: if this succeed i need my share from the big cake lol :D.

tanks and good luck.

 

 

[Yukio blaster.9082]

> @"Zoser.7245" said:

 

> That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

>

well just for you to know the power builds are already bursty a lot, like holo and every other power class. but the community don't talk about power builds because those bursty power builds aren't so useful in games because of the big burst from condi builds and the low health on most power builds so if this next patch nerf the condi a lot then we gonna hear a lot complaining about the power burtiness .

and about you saying that no need of a brain the manage cleanses if all those players on the forum who complain about condi burtiness including me where good at managing cleanses like ZAN for example who plays HOLO and he is top 5 now there will be no problem cos if you cleans low damaging condi's and after you cleans the high dmg condi burst come then and you left with no condi cleans that would be your mistake for not managing the cleans and this mostly happen to players on low plat and down but the pro gamer's they manage anything mostly.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Zoser.7245" said:

> That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

 

Most Power builds have counters. They tend to be able to be focused down, they tend to have low health and/or armour. The same cant be said for most condition builds that in WvW will be bunker built, having to rely on 1 damaging stat and just go with Vit and Toughness for every other stat and the sheer mindless application CONSTANTLY getting hit for 3 or 4 different conditions every 2 seconds isn't a fun thing to play against, take Scourge for example. Currently the only reliable way for most classes to beat them is stay at range. Lock them down and range spam because being in melee is a death sentence even with condition removal, you will never have enough.

 

[Zoser.7245]

We will always have the doubt of how big the changes will be according to which professions but in summary they could affect more or less like this:

 

**PVE:** Condition builds will be erased from open world due to the ramp up while power builds will erase all trash faster than you can take any profit with a condition build. Hybrid builds with viper, sinister, etc, should still work although they'll be affected too. Raids will only depends of the "benchmarks" mainly... because is what they use as reference, the type of damage required for the boss and add chronomancers (for now) plus a healer if necessary.

 

**WvW:** As unbalanced game mode, this will adapt to the changes, as usual. Big zergs will change the proportion of the Scourges or the needed specialization and will wipe out everything, servers with less population or pairing and typical GvG forced to play the old school style and roamers will change their builds too or probably dust off the old ones that were stored.

 

**PVP:** Should be good if done rightly and keeping an eye on the power burst too, tweaking it if necessary. But if they tune down too much how effective the conditions can be is probable that we suffer the reborn or resurface of the tank meta.

 

And positive for those that love to create new builds ;)

[Bossun.2046]

Sounds good :D

[saerni.2584]

I’d like to pop in and ask people to stop confusing all condition builds with a couple builds they personally don’t like fighting against.

 

Scourge and condi mirage are outliers. Most other specs that I’m aware of never achieve true condi burst, meaning >4,000 damage per second under 3-5 seconds in pvp.

 

If a condition build has to land everything for 10 seconds to get to 4,000 per second it isn’t burst. If something isn’t at 4,000 per second ever it isn’t burst either.

 

And on another note, arguing that your power build isn’t “viable” because you “only” do 30k DPS compared to a condi build that does 31k is stupid. You don’t need to achieve max potential numbers to complete content. GW2 isn’t that hard to play. These “not viable unless it does max DPS” arguments are silly. And wanting your class and build to be not only maxed out, personally, but also best in the entire game is silly.

 

As to the whole “conditions aren’t affected by toughness” argument. This is a red herring argument because, similarly, power damage isn’t impacted by cleanse. Both sources of damage have unique game features that reduce or eliminate the damage. Power ones tend to be % based like armor or protection. Condition ones are all or nothing like cleanse or resistance. There are a few outliers like signet of stone or endure pain that briefly act as an immunity but not an invulnerability.

 

Some classes have high armor. Others have strong cleanse. It isn’t fair, but the idea that all classes are going in the same ways equally is not how the game is designed on a fundamental level.

 

Personally, nerf classes that cleanse too much and nerf classes that apply too much condition damage. Likewise, the same for power damage. I don’t think you can nerf either across the board as a solution to a few overpowered builds.

[Zoser.7245]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > That should implies shave/nerf the burst from power builds too. And they are only talking to shave the conditions burst. Although defensive stats are always there, passive and doesn't need a brain to manage the cleanses.

>

> Most Power builds have counters. They tend to be able to be focused down, they tend to have low health and/or armour. The same cant be said for most condition builds that in WvW will be bunker built, having to rely on 1 damaging stat and just go with Vit and Toughness for every other stat and the sheer mindless application CONSTANTLY getting hit for 3 or 4 different conditions every 2 seconds isn't a fun thing to play against, take Scourge for example. Currently the only reliable way for most classes to beat them is stay at range. Lock them down and range spam because being in melee is a death sentence even with condition removal, you will never have enough.

>

 

Oh, I was writing about it too at the same time as you. Yes, in WvW that is actually a problem. But they don't consider WvW a balanced game mode although sometimes take it in account. Anyhow this upcoming balance should help in WvW as I commented in my last post. But between or against a zerg I can't see that they will affect significantly. But hopefully in other areas of the game inside WvW like GVG, siege, squads, roaming, etc, it should help and be positive for that game mode.

But they should keep an eye on control power builds and shave/nerf some if necessary too. You should know if you play WvW how the Zerk train works. We'll see.

[trueanimus.4085]

all necros will be switching to power pew pew ranger for vul and high damage ranged dps

 

[Dano.2408]

> @"Drinks.2361" said:

> remember that it's not only condi that is a problem in WvW, it's also the boon strip in larger groups that removes any counter a small group might have

 

Boon Strip is not an issue in WvW, Boon Corruption is an issue, therefore condi damage is the real issue.

[saerni.2584]

Not really, if boon corruption happens first then the fact it is able to happen so often is the problem.

 

In that example massive condition damage is the symptom of a balance issue with corruption skills.

[Dano.2408]

> @"ProfCarson.7124" said:

> How about a rework to most of the Engi's base? Engi has been stuck with the same meta builds for years even with the intro of elite specs. Would love to see anything without kits as viable in fracs/raids.

 

Holosmith with NO kits is very viable and top dmg in fractal/raids.

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Dano.2408" said:

> Boon Strip is not an issue in WvW, Boon Corruption is an issue, therefore condi damage is the real issue.

 

So all condi builds should be nerfed when the real issue is boon corruption? Also how many specs have access to that at the scale a Necro does?

 

 

[nedlee.5943]

How come changing Mutilate Defense helps with "offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone)"? Using energy-expensive, long cooldown elite skills once in a while for a measly 5 seconds of vulnerability is somehow more engaging and helps the gameplay? It is just a straight nerf, especailly with Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning only work with Vulnerability which are minor traits you cannot change at all. Please stop nerfing the revenant, it really doesn't need one, and this trait is used for power builds. Why nerf an underperforming power build in this condi rebalance.

 

I am pretty worried that anet thought it was such a great change that should be mentioned as a sign of how things will get better with this patch.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

YESSSS is this going to be a move away from "Condition and cc spam wars 2"?

 

If so i'am very very happy. It's about time to put conditions on the back burner a bit. When you can be bursted down by conditions in 6 seconds then there is a issue. I love power builds because i feel that it's the more personal way to take someone out compared to 1,000 conditions and run.

 

Hopefully this is a fix and not just a small patch to fix the condi issue that is out of control.