Why did we get an xpac weapon that does nothing?

[otto.5684]

> @"Lucifer.7289" said:

> > @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> > > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > Because Rev was missing a ranged condition weapon. Yes it needs improving but stop being a drama queen about it. It's not that bad.

> >

> > It is though. Even if you land all of its slow clunky abilities its damage is terrible.

>

> The damage is pretty good on SB, it's the slow god awful animations that kill it for Spvp/wvw. SB number 2/3 hit like a truck with condi, 7 instant torrment stacks/bleeds ect. Number 5 knock down is pretty nice as well.

 

Good luck landing Sb 3 or 4 against anything. Even 2 is bugged. Add lack of mobility, blocks or evades, Sb is the epitome of garbage weapon.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

Hammer is at least fun. Good vs mobs and AFK people, trash tier vs good players.

The 1200 range helps alot so yeah Renegade should have gotten Long Bow at the very least but whatever... dont expect anything to be done, only a full redesign could save it.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

Well 8k / s on shortbow while I do 16k /s on mace/axe (on a random 5 men fractal team) on the same gear... yeah it needs some improvement ... (since it has only one CC and is very slow)

[Carighan.6758]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

 

Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

 

Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

 

Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

 

Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

[Lucifer.7289]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Lucifer.7289" said:

> > > @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> > > > @Lahmia.2193 said:

> > > > Because Rev was missing a ranged condition weapon. Yes it needs improving but stop being a drama queen about it. It's not that bad.

> > >

> > > It is though. Even if you land all of its slow clunky abilities its damage is terrible.

> >

> > The damage is pretty good on SB, it's the slow god awful animations that kill it for Spvp/wvw. SB number 2/3 hit like a truck with condi, 7 instant torrment stacks/bleeds ect. Number 5 knock down is pretty nice as well.

>

> Good luck landing Sb 3 or 4 against anything. Even 2 is bugged. Add lack of mobility, blocks or evades, Sb is the epitome of garbage weapon.

 

Yeah, I was agreeing with you it sucks for pvp/wvw because the slow animations, can't hit anything. I was just stating the damage on SB is actually pretty nice.

[Buran.3796]

 

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > I saw Justine's videos kicking heads using a glass cannon hammer build for roaming, and yesterday Byrevanent was using hammer + sword + shield in matches with double Scourge in the enemy team at PvP with great effect.

>

> Odd you mention Hammer Rev Roaming, because i killed like 4 today with ease. Hammer is VERY easy to counter and you would have to be fighting someone AFK or someone know doesnt know how to counter Hammer to win. The moment you go melee, they are forced into swapping weapon because it loses all its threat.

>

>

 

I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

 

 

Not to mention that in guild vs guild scrims hammer Revenant was (is?) one of the main force multipliers in terms of dps (both sustained and burst). You probably killed raid heralds going to assemble with their fellow clan members. Revenant's raid WvW builds can't do a crap without being holding by the hand for a Guardian. Anyway, as I said, I do roam with sword + axe + staf, I won't change any of them to a hammer, but I would chose hammer over short bow any time of the day, including condi builds, because at least prodives 50% uptime projectile negation, an evade and some nice cc/breackbar tools.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

>

> Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

>

> Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

>

> Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

>

> Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

 

I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

 

 

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

Anet gives no -f--u--c--k--s- about PvP. This has been the case since HoT,where after Beta it became obvious to most PvE'rs that their main role in raids is to play the buff bot.

Renegade is PvE "viable"only.

[otto.5684]

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

> >

> > Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

> >

> > Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

> >

> > Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

> >

> > Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

>

> I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

>

>

Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

 

Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

 

[Jack Skywalker.5674]

Pre PoF,most people complained that Hammer AA was slow, ignoring the fact that hammer AA combo'ed with hammer 4 can cause said AA to restore some of our health. Also I never tested to see is SB 5 can deal breakbar damage (because I do not own PoF) - in the instance that it does,well it's a very easy to target ranged break bar damage (hammer ones have aoe target,that make's them harder to aim in my oppinion vs click boss and press 5).

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

 

Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

 

They know they CAN'T have the game being skill based because too much of the player base rely on it NOT being balanced for their builds to carry them to victory.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"otto.5684" said:

>

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

> > >

> > > Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

> > >

> > > Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

> > >

> > > Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

> > >

> > > Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

> >

> > I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

> >

> >

> Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

>

> Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

>

 

It's like I'm talking to a wall here ... SB not being good is not a reason Anet seems to respond to because their balancing efforts are not based only on performance, no more than any other weapon ingame that isn't good is also not the focus of some balancing effort. It has a purpose; maybe that purpose isn't too great, but it still has that purpose. Every class has a 'worst' weapon. It's simply a consequence of having 'best' ones.

 

Revenant not having a decent PVP build ... a more significant, but not relevant to the reason SB exists and how it performs; whether that's true I think is debatable and not in this thread. People are trying to magnify the complexity to justify their ideas about how important it is to address this problem. It's not complicated though ... SB is a ranged condi weapon, this is it's purpose and it does what it's intended to do. Whether it does it good or bad, seems completely secondary.

[otto.5684]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> >

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

> > > >

> > > > Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

> > > >

> > > > Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

> > > >

> > > > Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

> > > >

> > > > Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

> > >

> > > I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

> > >

> > >

> > Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

> >

> > Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

> >

>

> It's like I'm talking to a wall here ... SB not being good is not a reason Anet seems to respond to because their balancing efforts are not based only on performance, no more than any other weapon ingame that isn't good is also not the focus of some balancing effort. It has a purpose; maybe that purpose isn't too great, but it still has that purpose. Every class has a 'worst' weapon. It's simply a consequence of having 'best' ones.

>

> Revenant not having a decent PVP build ... a more significant, but not relevant to the reason SB exists and how it performs; whether that's true I think is debatable and not in this thread. People are trying to magnify the complexity to justify their ideas about how important it is to address this problem. It's not complicated though ... SB is a ranged condi weapon, this is it's purpose and it does what it's intended to do. Whether it does it good or bad, seems completely secondary.

 

Yes you are talking to a wall, it is the wall of whatever box you are talking to yourself inside.

 

And, by the way thanks for letting us know that SB is a ranged condi ranged weapon. That was a brilliant revelation.

 

The whole point of this thread is to comment on SB efficiency, and how it impacts renegade effectiveness as a whole. If you do not have anything useful to add then do not post to this thread. However coming here to argue that other posters should not leave feedback that you do not agree with, is the definition of trolling. Also, please do not try to dictate how feedback should be provided. I (and everyone posted here) have bought the game, and have the right to leave feedback in whatever format we like. Anet does not have a prescribed a specific format to leave feedback regarding class balance. Unless you are on the dev team, I do not give a flying kitten about how you think feedback should be provided.

[Obtena.7952]

Apparently, based on the posts of most posters in this thread, letting you guys know that SB is a ranged condi weapons WAS a significantly useful revelation. After all, it seems this wasn't clear enough to gleen from the skills it has for many of you.

 

Frankly, it's seems that it's terribly useful to point out that Anet isn't rushing to buff weapons that aren't highly performing (or lowest either), though I would think that after 5 years, people would be aware of the obvious facts. No one is saying how you should give feedback ... with the exception of Anet of course; Consider it more of a PSA that if you actually CARE about the state of something, you try to do a better job at giving feedback than supporting the "OMG this weapon doesn't do anything" threads. Sensationalism is a terrible way to express what you think is wrong with something.

[Halikus.1406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

>Frankly, it's terribly useful to point out that Anet isn't rushing to buff weapons that aren't highly performing, though i would think that after 5 years, people would be aware of the obvious.

 

Please, someone tell that I didn't just read this...

 

That's why I usually don't bother answering to forums too much. rofl

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Halikus.1406" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > **buff weapons that aren't highly performing**

>

> Please, someone tell that I didn't just read this...

>

> That's why I usually don't bother answering to forums too much. rofl

>

 

If you don't think that's useful, you obviously missed the previous posts in this thread ... seems that a few people have the wrong idea about how Anet prioritizes their efforts.

[Halikus.1406]

I could point everything wrong with your "arguments" on previous posts and make an essay like I usually do but I really don't feel like diving into a pointless discussion with someone that says "SB is condi ranged weapon" as main argument. Feedback can be given in any format that people want it to, of course some times it is done with hot tempers but it illustrates the frustation of the person and that's something to be taken into account.

 

It is anet's job to filter the good from the bad ones, not yours. So unless you're one of their employees you have no rights to say how people express themselves here.

[Obtena.7952]

No one is attempting to filter anything; If people want to put their efforts forward by taking the piss out of Anet, let them do it. Those are the easiest threads for them to ignore as feedback and the most entertaining. It's too bad people don't care enough to actually put some thinking into their complains other than single line quips. The problem is when those ideas are probed deeper to get more meaningful content, it's regularly the case that it's as simply a shallow idea as it appeared in the first place.

 

No, SB is not the best weapon, but to pretend it's got no purpose and doesn't do anything is rather meaningless. I'm sure there is a deeper reason than 'it's bad' to have Anet look at the SB ... so what is it ye unhappy Revenant nation? ... or is "doesn't do anything" the best you got? To be fair, if the argument of "doesn't do anything" is acceptable to people, then "SB is a condition ranged weapon" is addressing the same level of thoughtfulness the thread deserves.

[Halikus.1406]

1) Don't talk about people putting something into their complains when you only came here so far to charge at them without adding anything useful for the discussion. So if you don't know how, or don't want, to contribute for the discussion like a civilized person you can simply do like me and stay out of it watching.

 

2) The point here is not if the weapon has a purpose or not, the problem is if it can perform well that given role or not. And right now SB doesn't do **anything** significantly useful at all to be taken into accoun't in any game mode.

[Obtena.7952]

I would disagree with that statement. As ANOTHER poster already observed, there was a desire by the community to have a ranged condi weapon to compliment the Mace ... the SB is it ... if I recall correctly, it wasn't even out of a PVP/WvW interest.

 

Significantly useful (a vague enough term to begin with) speaks to performance; you haven't been paying attention to the game for the last 5 years if you think Anet gives us a plethora of weapons because they are all achieving some players subjective assessment of being significantly useful.

[Set.7461]

Feedback for SB(and Renegade)was given since beta weekend. They've ignored it all. The main issue since PoF was the PvP effectiveness of SB/Renegade. Instead we got a horizontal offhand sword change and some arbitrary number tweaks. These "single line quips" are a reflection of what we got from the devs. We gave lots of meaningful feedback. They gave us a whooping 1 sec extra bleed duration to SB2! Not to mention the other HUGE buffs we were asking for. Like SB5 getting .5 extra seconds of SLOW! I'll probably cream my pants if I list them all. SB and Renegade OP now. /s

 

This forum have always been skewed towards PvP/WvW. The PvErs are on reddit posting their shitty art or memes. So, yes. Shortbow has a purpose. You can use it to AFK kill an Awakened NPC a whole second faster. Much DEEPS. So purposeful. Feedback well received. Thanks ANET!

[Obtena.7952]

I would argue that feedback != Anet taking action, so be careful when you make that correlation. See, when the feedback is mostly threads like THIS, you can't, at all, be surprised it's ignored. Players need to step up and call these threads out, EVEN if you think SBow isn't good. These threads have a NEGATIVE impact in Anet using our experience to help them out.

[Set.7461]

Considering all the constructive posts we had on PoF beta/launch, are you surprised? There's no sugar-coating a bad thing. And you know things are bad when OTHER classes, who usually cry about classes besides their main, complains about the performance of SB/Renegade.

 

Most of the posters I saw during launch have stopped making the types of constructive threads you are gatekeeping for. And they do exist. You're just new here. What you're seeing is the novelty of an expansion waning and thief/necro/etc. mains trying out Renegade. They're here posting complaints that's not new, just new to them.

 

It IS a positive thing. If thieves, necros, guardians, etc. come here saying how underwhelming shortbow/renegade is, it shows that we're not just delusional whiners. It is legit bad.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent? What is so wrong with this thread? is it that many people agree on something that you necessarily don't? say something of substance, please. And you know nothing of the subject matter it seems so how is your input any more valid? The thing is that the rev community, at least the vocal portion, wanted a ranged condi weapon that was going to provide a use. Just because the weapon applies conditions doesn't make it a useful condition weapon. The fact that the mace/axe combo can hit at 600-900 range and does good damage already makes it so the shortbow doesn't provide anything the mace/axe can. You can argue that all the skills on the sb are 900 range thus giving you more options to use at long range and being more of a ranged threat, but it runs into a problem because the skills are clunky, hard to hit with, and provides no methods to keep combat at range. So now we clarified that shortbow does abysmal damage to any moving target, doesn't provide utility, and has no defensive capabilities, I ask why would one take it? Even on a condi build, hammer could prove more useful just for the fact that it is 1200 range and you could use a couple skills before the enemy closes in on you. So when people say that shortbow is useless, serves no purpose, and has no place in pretty much any game mode, they aren't wrong. There have been many threads discussing this so the issues are known, but it's important to keep bringing up unresolved issues if we ever hope to get change. And yes, I think the community as a whole has come to the conclusion of the uselessness of the sb, and the complete lacklusterness, or should I say boringness, of the renegade spec as a whole.

[Buran.3796]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

>

> Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

 

>

 

Maybe you should take a look at Bryvanent streams on twitch, because He's beating necros with hammer at platinum tiers in season 9... I known, I known: is not legend tier, but happens that NA legend tier doesn't exist because the population is so low that there's less than 10 dudes at that rank. Soo... albeit sub-optimal for the task, currently hammer can beat very good necro players (and some others)if used smartly, in part due He doesn't pair it with staff but with sword + shield, which means that still can kill things in mele.