Daniel.5428 Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"zealex.9410" said: > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > This is why I'm curious to fight the bosses for myself, to see how it feels to react to the mechanics without a timer. How many mechanics would you say are guarantee to cause a wipe if done incorrectly? Things like the green circles on vale guardian for example. > On Sloth? Let me see... > None. On the other hand, Greens on VG are also not a guaranteed fail (you _can_ survive if you had full hp, you can be ressed if you only got downed, and even if you die, the rest of the group can try to continue). > Still, there are several mechanics failing whose is usually a cause for /gg > First is poison: drop it in the wrong place, and the poison _will_ kill you. But it won't happen immediately, so you still have a bit of a time to kill the boss first. Of course, if that happened in the late stages of the fight, otherwise it is a delayed wipe with practically no chance of reversal. > Second is mushrooms: if you kill the slubling before the player has a chance to clear the path... well, you have a big problem. > The other mechanics may seem all lesser compared to that, as they are not as total. They are not the certain death button, but more like a death of thousand papercuts - they don't work on a "succed/fail the fight" binary, they cause attrition that is slowly lowering your capability to succesfully continue on. In short, they kill individual players off. > Still, if your team will eat the shakes, or your healer will dodge tantrum into an aoe from someone else's, or your fix wanders into the flamebreath, or some of your dps get feared off to the other side of the room... well, too much of those, and you might just /gg as well. > > > I actually meant across all the bosses, as it's clear that Sloth is a pressure fight that can slowly kill off raid members 1 by 1 rather than wiping the raid in 1 go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 I have a feeling people overemphasize damage meters for actual raid purposes and replacement of players. Here's how the damage meter gets used in raids I'm member or lead of: - get a general overview of how high raid dps is. experienced raiders know where the break off points are and when you might start running into issues. these values are VERY lenient and no good raid lead will kick someone for not bringing perfect dps as long as it's across the board decent. The value for decent depends highly on what group is run. No good raid leader will expect max level numbers from a training group - comparison of builds. When people jump on new builds for fight or want to try something different it very useful to have a direct comparison, especially if the entire raid comp stays the same - check support boon up times if needed (mostly in training runs, first place to check if an experienced run is going poorly) - give players advice on rotation (this will happen a lot on training runs) - finally IF exchanges need to be made based on damage, then damage meters will pick who to replace first. What most people seem not to realize, the reasons people get replaced are 8 out of 10 times absolutely damage meter independent. The more experienced the group, the easier people will spot bad play. Using Sloth as an example for an experienced group: - drop poison on the group 1 times to often, you are out - entangle the transformed player a couple of times, you are out - don't move when you are tank, you are out - stand in front of him repeatedly and eat the flame breath attack and go down/die repeatedly, you are out - don't eat your mushroom and clear, you are out - pull the transformed player repeatedly with skill, you are out Those are the main reasons why people would get replaced on Sloth. None of them is in any way damage dependent. I think I've never seen any one get replaced on Sloth due to bad damage in groups I've been there. The more complex the fight and dependent on mechanics, the less you will see people get removed for damage purposes but instead for failing mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. Actually that has to do with bringing the wrong build to the boss fight. Yes, damage meter would only show the difference, but any good raid lead knows which fights favor which type of builds. KC is heavily favoring burst power builds. Doesn't mean that the raid leader is wrong to replace slow condi builds if the overall raid damage is insufficient. The damage meter in this simply shows the disparity between build optimization for a certain fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. what encounter are we talking here about? if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > what encounter are we talking here about? > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > > > what encounter are we talking here about? > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > > > > > what encounter are we talking here about? > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > > > > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. > > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense) It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > This is odd and not true. Fortunately we have GW2Raidar now that tracks actual stats. The average dps of a Power Weaver is 14584 while the "elite raiders" say 47896 on the golem? To be a bit more specific, Keep Construct average Power Weaver dps is 27262, Keep Construct has a large hitbox, large hitbox expected dps is 47896. This rather clearly shows that "kicks because you don't have enough dps" are probably less common than people claim. The 99% damage of Power Weaver on Keep Construct is 39303, that's a rather HUGE difference from the 27262 average dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > > > > > > > what encounter are we talking here about? > > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > > > > > > > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. > > > > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense) > > It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss. so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall. and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way. since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like : commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > > > > > > > > > what encounter are we talking here about? > > > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > > > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > > > > > > > > > > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. > > > > > > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense) > > > > It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss. > > so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall. > and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way. > since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like : > commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters) It's more about expressing my continued confusion over the insistence of running only meta builds in raids. I could understand if the bosses were so hard that you needed a specific teamcomp in order to beat it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. When you can beat a boss with as little as 2 people, who cares what other people you bring to the fight? Surely it's better to bring a player who knows the mechanics of the fight and can execute them over someone who doesn't, regardless of what build they are using. Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? Remember that I'm not talking about speed runs here, but basic clears. If you haven't tried, and are just going by the word of the top guilds, then in my opinion you are a sheep blindly following the shepherd. I'm sorry if that term offends anyone but I can't think of another term to describe such people. EDIT: Oh and I'm talking about guild groups here, not PUGs. I can understand PUGs running meta comps, but in the past month I have join 4 different raiding guilds, and all of them insisted in running the meta builds and only the meta builds. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky, but my gut tells me that isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel.5428" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics. > > > > > > > > btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class. > > > > > > > > to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > what encounter are we talking here about? > > > > > > if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then. > > > > > > but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss. > > > > > > > > well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense) > > > > > > It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss. > > > > so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall. > > and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way. > > since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like : > > commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters) > > It's more about expressing my continued confusion over the insistence of running only meta builds in raids. I could understand if the bosses were so hard that you needed a specific teamcomp in order to beat it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. When you can beat a boss with as little as 2 people, who cares what other people you bring to the fight? Surely it's better to bring a player who knows the mechanics of the fight and can execute them over someone who doesn't, regardless of what build they are using. > > Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? Remember that I'm not talking about speed runs here, but basic clears. If you haven't tried, and are just going by the word of the top guilds, then in my opinion you are a sheep blindly following the shepherd. I'm sorry if that term offends anyone but I can't think of another term to describe such people. you can clear almost every boss with almost every setup, true. but you need to emphatise on other people to. the phrase "speedrun" doesn´t only translate to, well, being fast, it also translates to, easiest way to do it. (more dps = less mechanics) other then that there are speedclear tactics and "pug tactics" where "easy kill" is also a goal. (deimos middle, one extra healer,...) where you are also "forced" to adapt. in the end its on the commander to deside witch way to follow, and of course, again of you, because you decide which groups you join. you can in fact still "play how you want", but not with everyone you might want. and of course possibly not with the same outcome. i would fall in the sheep catagoury as you put it, i follow build guides because i have every class but no knowledge of every class. yet with this guides im able to contribute to the team in in efficient (=fun for me) way. does that make me a sheep? does following anyones guidens or help turn you into a sheep? doe i have less fun playing those builds? its button mashing after all, whatever build you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > I actually meant across all the bosses, as it's clear that Sloth is a pressure fight that can slowly kill off raid members 1 by 1 rather than wiping the raid in 1 go. There are a few then. In W1 there's the Gorse's spirits. In W2 there are the saboteurs at Trio. In W3 there's wargs at Escort (and well, generally keeping Glenna alive), three spirits and colored orbs' catching at KC. In w4 it's keeping Saul alive at Deimos. Can't say anything about w5, as i haven't seen it yet. Notice, there aren't that many of those, and they are almost never the primary cause of the wipes. Matthias, for example is considered to be a hard boss, but has no "guaranteed fail" mechanics. It's just a survival game with ton of pressure mechanics. Edit: Right, forgot Xera. Failing minigames or incorrectly placing the protect dome will cause wipe and at least the first one is a thing that _does_ happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? > Examples: 10-guardians only No Chrono: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Don't think it is that hard to fix all of these KP issues or the gear linking and faking information nonsense. Just look at other games. A simple yet customizable character page is all we need. Allowing you to display anything from gear to boss kills, your build or specific achievements you have earned. Displaying any of this would be completely optional of course. Having it turned off by default and allowing you to be shy if that is your wish. I am quite aware of the outcry this would cause with a specific group of players even if it was completely optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Henry.5713" said: > Don't think it is that hard to fix all of these KP issues or the gear linking and faking information nonsense. Just look at other games. A simple yet customizable character page is all we need. Allowing you to display anything from gear to boss kills, your build or specific achievements you have earned. Displaying any of this would be completely optional of course. Having it turned off by default and allowing you to be shy if that is your wish. I am quite aware of the outcry this would cause with a specific group of players even if it was completely optional. > > I think the reason why they didn't put that in before was the same reason why they didn't allow dps meters at the beginning: To discourage elitism. Unfortunately elitism is here whether they like it or not, so they might as well put it in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.5428 Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > I think the reason why they didn't put that in before was the same reason why they didn't allow dps meters at the beginning: To discourage elitism. Unfortunately elitism is here whether they like it or not, so they might as well put it in anyway. If they wanted to discourage elitism, then they should have balance all classes and builds to work well with raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? > > > > Examples: > > 10-guardians only > > > No Chrono: > > Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? > > > > > > > Examples: > > > > 10-guardians only > > > > > > No Chrono: > > > > > > Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons. Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion. There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutra.6857 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 For that training room, maybe they can add the Xera gliding platforms....So many people mess up during the gliding part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Mist.2973 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > > > > Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? > > > > > > > > > > Examples: > > > > > > 10-guardians only > > > > > > > > > No Chrono: > > > > > > > > > > Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons. > > Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion. > > There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters. That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said: > That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group. It depends I guess what builds the other people are running :) And of course it depends on the boss. A chrono tank is marginally useful in any encounter that doesn't require an actual tank. The most important aspect of a Chrono is distortion sharing that makes some hard encounters easy and there isn't anything like that in any other build. But a Druid? Not really required, there are better healers in the game. Although now Druid is the best at stacking might so there is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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