Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Then> @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > You are one of the 50% of forum posters who don't know what power creep is. Power creep is when you raise the overall power level of the game so it invalidates past content. > > > > > > It's not power creep if it's not used by anything equal to the overall power level of the game. Edit: That's called a justified buff (without applying context.) > > > > > > Lol no. I bet that kool-aid was tasty. > > > > It's power creep when engineer was competitive before HoT but needed massive buffs now to make out work. It's only not power creep when you accept that the power creep of the expansions is now the norm. > > > > Expansions are power creep, they raise the bar and invalidate things like Engi. After the bar is irrevocably and permanently set higher, what I'm trying to explain to you is that making irrelevant content (Engi, PvP Weavers) usable again is not power creep, that's necessary maintenance. > > Power creep only happens when you raise the bar. Google it. Then I submit that the best response would be a game wide power regression to core levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassionWhisky.3457 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 I notice no difference to before. Conditions still does more dmg than before, anet fails again, time for me to leave the game now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 They are from another planet. Speaking languages with very different patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > Then> @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > > You are one of the 50% of forum posters who don't know what power creep is. Power creep is when you raise the overall power level of the game so it invalidates past content. > > > > > > > > It's not power creep if it's not used by anything equal to the overall power level of the game. Edit: That's called a justified buff (without applying context.) > > > > > > > > > Lol no. I bet that kool-aid was tasty. > > > > > > It's power creep when engineer was competitive before HoT but needed massive buffs now to make out work. It's only not power creep when you accept that the power creep of the expansions is now the norm. > > > > > > > Expansions are power creep, they raise the bar and invalidate things like Engi. what I'm trying to explain to you is that making irrelevant content (Engi, PvP Weavers) usable again is not power creep, that's necessary maintenance. > > > > Power creep only happens when you raise the bar. Google it. > > Then I submit that the best response would be a game wide power regression to core levels. The power of many Core builds has in many cases has already been brought up to the new standard. The part about the bar being irrevocably and permanently set higher, that was the key bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > Then> @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > > > > You are one of the 50% of forum posters who don't know what power creep is. Power creep is when you raise the overall power level of the game so it invalidates past content. > > > > > > > > > > It's not power creep if it's not used by anything equal to the overall power level of the game. Edit: That's called a justified buff (without applying context.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol no. I bet that kool-aid was tasty. > > > > > > > > It's power creep when engineer was competitive before HoT but needed massive buffs now to make out work. It's only not power creep when you accept that the power creep of the expansions is now the norm. > > > > > > > > > > Expansions are power creep, they raise the bar and invalidate things like Engi. what I'm trying to explain to you is that making irrelevant content (Engi, PvP Weavers) usable again is not power creep, that's necessary maintenance. > > > > > > Power creep only happens when you raise the bar. Google it. > > > > Then I submit that the best response would be a game wide power regression to core levels. > > The power of many Core builds has in many cases has already been brought up to the new standard. > > The part about the bar being irrevocably and permanently set higher, that was the key bit The phrase, "irrevocably and permanently," is redundant. I don't think it is or should be permanent. I think power should be lowered to the point where the specializations are alternatives and not upgrades. Of course, the specializations should not be downgrades either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > I don't think it is or should be permanent. Here's why - There is no definable "core level" anymore, there are now core builds that completely invalidate core builds. More than some elite specializations. - PvE. The expansion PvE content hits harder and has more HP than it did in Vanilla - Developers will never turn in the opposite direction and undo the years of small patches to slowly bring core builds back into viability, they've committed to a new desirable power level of builds - That would be extremely resource heavy ($$) - No MMO has ever launched power creep (expansions) and then returned to vanilla levels of HP or damage. What do people in WoW hit for now? 5 million damage per second? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 With re> @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > I don't think it is or should be permanent. > > Here's why > - There is no definable "core level" anymore, there are now core builds that completely invalidate core builds. More than some elite specializations. > - PvE. The expansion PvE content hits harder and has more HP than it did in Vanilla > - Developers will never turn in the opposite direction and undo the years of small patches to slowly bring core builds back into viability, they've committed to a new desirable power level of builds > - That would be extremely resource heavy ($$) > - No MMO has ever launched power creep (expansions) and then returned to vanilla levels of HP or damage. What do people in WoW hit for now? 5 million damage per second? With regard to your second point; In another game, my current DPS record in a specific PvE scenario, ( we run specific scenarios for comparison in the league, ) is about 38.4 K. Others run numbers in the range of 250 K and higher. By comparison, a relatively untuned max level player ( a new GW2 80, let's say ) will run about 500 to 2 k dps. That 500 to 2k is plenty for most situations. The rest is pure competition and fluff. The same is true of GW2. I can run my "stock" PU Mesmer in the new Elona. I might have to work a bit harder at it, but I don't have the reflexes of a formula 1 driver so PU suits me. It's in PvP that it becomes a problem. ANET could down tune across the board and not really hurt PvE much. *the less desirable alternative would be to bring core builds up to the point where they are truly viable choices.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swim.6830 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 As a returning Ele and getting back into it, it makes me really SAD the devs don't know how to balance my class. I do have an actual idea how to check if this condi meta is balanced. Make every class cleanse ALL conditions on dodge for a week. If people still mass-die from this shit, the answer is obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spurnshadow.3678 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 I just have the feeling that the balance team just doesn't play WvW or PvP on a regular basis on all professions to know what's really going on. That is an essential part of knowing what to do. I think they depend more on analytics and profession forums. Although, I don't know anyone who complained about eles having fury on attunment swapping. It was short enough not to have 100% uptime, unless one invested in boon duration, meaning they'd be sacrificing something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xillllix.3485 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Spurnshadow.3678" said: > I just have the feeling that the balance team just doesn't play WvW or PvP on a regular basis on all professions to know what's really going on. That is an essential part of knowing what to do. I think they depend more on analytics and profession forums. Although, I don't know anyone who complained about eles having fury on attunment swapping. It was short enough not to have 100% uptime, unless one invested in boon duration, meaning they'd be sacrificing something else. Even in PvE Weaver is like nightmare mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Exedore.6320" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > You are one of the 50% of forum posters who don't know what power creep is. Power creep is when you raise the overall power level of the game so it invalidates past content. > > > > > > It's not power creep if it's not used by anything equal to the overall power level of the game. Edit: That's called a justified buff (without applying context.) > > > > > > Lol no. I bet that kool-aid was tasty. > > > > It's power creep when engineer was competitive before HoT but needed massive buffs now to make out work. It's only not power creep when you accept that the power creep of the expansions is now the norm. > > > > Expansions are power creep, they raise the bar and invalidate things like Engi. After the bar is irrevocably and permanently set higher, what I'm trying to explain to you is that making irrelevant content (Engi, PvP Weavers) usable again is not power creep, that's necessary maintenance. > > Power creep only happens when you raise the bar. Google it. As an aside I would argue that PoF's power level is lower than HoT's was. While PoF is certainly a power increase over the August 2017 meta, PoF builds are worse than the original HoT specs. Season 1 power Herald would have easily dunked all over every one of the PoF specs except possibly condi mirage. Support Firebrand is a pushover compared to season 1 Chronobunker. Spellbreaker's point bunking capabilities is but a shadow compared to early HoT Druid and Scrapper. Also the power creep complaints ignore the fact that Soulbeast, Renegade, Deadeye, and Weaver are all worse than their nerfed HoT counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. What they realistically should be doing is balancing the game around PvP, then the WvW balance would fall into place. Group make-up would have to change but nobody could complain at that point about classes massively outbalanced. The PvE balance would just be a by-product of PvP, meaning much like WvW, group dynamics would have to change for PvE content. This in itself shouldn't be an issue because 95% of PvE content does not require coordination or class specifics by any means, so there is no way they should balance the game around pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferus.3165 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. > > What they realistically should be doing is balancing the game around PvP, then the WvW balance would fall into place. Group make-up would have to change but nobody could complain at that point about classes massively outbalanced. The PvE balance would just be a by-product of PvP, meaning much like WvW, group dynamics would have to change for PvE content. This in itself shouldn't be an issue because 95% of PvE content does not require coordination or class specifics by any means, so there is no way they should balance the game around pve. Or they could simply split the gamemodes from one another permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exedore.6320 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > Expansions are power creep, they raise the bar and invalidate things like Engi. They don't have to be, especially in a horizontal progression game like GW2. The more important thing is whether increasing power is good for the game as a whole -does it add enjoyment, depth, etc. I'm sure a whole host of metrics - the biggest of which is sales - will say that HoT and PoF have not been good for the game. It is enjoyable for every competitive engineer build to pick a handful of traits and abilities so they can maintain 25 might? Just like Revenant is stuck with Herald. > Power creep only happens when you raise the bar. Google it. I'll admit that "Power Creep" wasn't the best term to use. A better one would have been "Arms Race": significant buffs in order to compete with power creep. Arms races are a part of power creep and are **never** good for games. > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > I don't think it is or should be permanent. > > Here's why > - There is no definable "core level" anymore, there are now core builds that completely invalidate core builds. More than some elite specializations. > - PvE. The expansion PvE content hits harder and has more HP than it did in Vanilla > - Developers will never turn in the opposite direction and undo the years of small patches to slowly bring core builds back into viability, they've committed to a new desirable power level of builds > - That would be extremely resource heavy ($$) > - No MMO has ever launched power creep (expansions) and then returned to vanilla levels of HP or damage. What do people in WoW hit for now? 5 million damage per second? Counter-points * PvE mobs prior to HoT were an absolute joke and posed no challenge outside of killing a champion solo as melee. They could have been safely buffed without increasing player power. Adding better AI where NPCs work together and support each other could also increase depth without needing to increase player power. And [ANet has a pretty powerful NPC AI scripting framework](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiFdlYY-GFA "Building a Better Centaur"). * Developers in many major games have un-done years worth of power creep through various means. WoW gutted a lot of class abilities in the Legion expansion, bringing them back to more basic roots with unique playstyles. There were a few misses, by for the most part the changes were welcomed. * There are many ways to manage power creep. Magic the Gathering keeps power creep in check with their expansion block cycles - only the most recent 2 expansion arcs are legal for the more popular tournament styles. MOBAs create new abilities that have no direct equivalent - incomparables ([Extra Credits - Power Creep]( "Extra Credits - Power Creep")) . * Comparing GW2 to a vertical progression RPG isn't an argument. Vertical progression games are built around constantly increasing player power (usually through better items). * WoW has done two "stat squishes" and will be doing a third before their upcoming expansion. They realized that dealing a million damage in a hit was silly (and also caused them to hit technical limits in their engine), so they basically compressed the item levels and stats of all previous expansions. Instead of an item being 20 ilvls higher with 50 more stats, it was 1 ilvl higher and 2 or 3 more stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 > @"Exedore.6320" said: > Counter-points Stat squishing affects PvP class balance approximately 0%, it's just a blanket math nerf. Taking a page from Magic the Gathering's book would not be popular for GW2, banning older specs from PvP would be a P2W riot. You didn't say anything about these points either > - There is no definable "core level" anymore, there are now core builds that completely invalidate core builds. More than some elite specializations. > - Developers will never turn in the opposite direction and undo the years of small patches to slowly bring core builds back into viability, they've committed to a new desirable power level of builds > - That would be extremely resource heavy ($$) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. If they balance around PvE why does mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out do as much DPS in PvE than a Power Reaper or Herald do with a fully optimized rotation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shindiggity.8306 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 They are slowly trying to make sword Weaver a thing. Slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuca.5732 Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 > @"Swim.6830" said: > As a returning Ele and getting back into it, it makes me really SAD the devs don't know how to balance my class. > I do have an actual idea how to check if this condi meta is balanced. Make every class cleanse ALL conditions on dodge for a week. If people still mass-die from this kitten, the answer is obvious. I hopped on a scourge in spite of my opinion of players who "main" them to see if my theorycrafting would give me the results I expected, and it did. I now almost consistently do the most damage on my team per game + at least one other top stat, while making the entire enemy team miserable by completely invalidating boon application. It's toxic gameplay. I am not an experienced necromancer, though I am somewhat of a guild wars veteran so the basics of mechanics aren't new to me. Still, I shouldn't be destroying people who in theory are building to counter me, assuming they're of similar skill level or possibly greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynz.9437 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. > > If they balance around PvE why does mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out do as much DPS in PvE than a Power Reaper or Herald do with a fully optimized rotation? New better shiney -> must buy PoF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. > > If they balance around PvE why does mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out do as much DPS in PvE than a Power Reaper or Herald do with a fully optimized rotation? Auto attacking with 3 clones? Not a reasonable situation. Clones die almost instantly in combat, so having three out and auto attacking will almost never happen and will probably not last a full second if it does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I just came from **2 consecutive 400 point losses.** That, ANET is why you have a population problem. Grossly unbalanced specs and matches. It's really not complicated. It really doesn't require committee meetings or complex statistical analysis. It requires a fair fun game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. > > > > If they balance around PvE why does mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out do as much DPS in PvE than a Power Reaper or Herald do with a fully optimized rotation? > > Auto attacking with 3 clones? Not a reasonable situation. Clones die almost instantly in combat, so having three out and auto attacking will almost never happen and will probably not last a full second if it does happen. Attacks from Raid bosses do not damage any kind of summon. So clones will not be destroyed in a boss fight. So yes a mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out will do more DPS in a raid fight than Herald or Reaper doing optimized rotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alazol.8065 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 Balance team should post their ranks so that we may see just how they see the game in a pvp sense, in terms of mechanics and profession potential. Whoever decided to implement a profession with pvp sized control point condibombs should rethink their idea of "balance." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > They don't balance around PvP or WvW, they balance around PvE. > > > > > > If they balance around PvE why does mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out do as much DPS in PvE than a Power Reaper or Herald do with a fully optimized rotation? > > > > Auto attacking with 3 clones? Not a reasonable situation. Clones die almost instantly in combat, so having three out and auto attacking will almost never happen and will probably not last a full second if it does happen. > > Attacks from Raid bosses do not damage any kind of summon. So clones will not be destroyed in a boss fight. > > So yes a mirage autoattacking with 3 clones out will do more DPS in a raid fight than Herald or Reaper doing optimized rotations. > This is not a raid forum. In PvP, clones are nearly instantly destroyed. You are making a deceptive argument because you are basing it on a non pvp situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 > @"shindiggity.8306" said: > They are slowly trying to make sword Weaver a thing. > Slowly. In the same way they're trying to make scepter a thing...oh wait..none of us will be here when that day come...the game won't be running either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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